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JaerTheBear
08-16-2018, 02:09 PM
A few issues i have with Kensei:

Side heavys doing 40 damage, as much as a warden top heavy

Top heavys doing 45 damage, again, too high, i get its unblockable and everything but not many characters bar those with special cases (shugokis charge attacks and demons embrace, raiders zone when used in a combo, etc) can reach this sort of damage with one attack.

Top light doing 20 damage, i feel its too high, especially since it can be guarenteed with a pommel strike

His side dodge attack carries him too far, whilst playing Valkyrie, upon shield bashing and a Kensei performing a dodge attack, it would carry the kensei around the Valkyrie in like, a 270° Ark.

Not even Shinobi can do that in a single dodge.

Also, Kenseis zone attack carries him too far towards his opponent during the first strike.


I propose lowering all of Kenseis heavy damage values by 5 points, and lowering his top light damage value by 5, and bringing his dodge in line with the rest of the cast, and making his zone attack move him forward less.

EDITTTT:

So i messed up a few numbers , i thought it was ALL of Kenseis top heavys that did 45 damage, i was unaware that its only the top heavy FINISHER that did 45, the other top heavys only do 40, which im okay with , i was just mistaken in thinking all top heavys did that amount of damage.

HOWEVER, i still stand by that side heavys and top light should only do 35 damage and 15 damage respectfully, his dodge attack shouldnt circle you around the opponent so far, and his zone shouldnt move him so far forward during the first strike of the zone.

RexXZ347
08-16-2018, 03:11 PM
Kensei is powerful if you are using B tier characters. But if you are using S tier it would be an even fight.

AzureSky.
08-16-2018, 05:15 PM
ehm, no, other picks have far better moves, it's not just about the damage, his top light is REALLY slow, and his combined top heavy into moves can only be done from top and takes A LOT of time to do, you can just give him a 500ms attack to stop it. also pommel strike into second light doesn't do 20 damage, also shinobi has far better dodges, you can use it to go back then to the front for a free heavy on kick.

also shugoki demon embrace and raider second zone are higher in damage or damage + health while being faster than kensei top heavy.

It's balanced cause it's a high damage, average speed, long range attacks character, his cons are his low health pool compared to other vanguards (just 5 more than assasins while being slow as raider) and that he doesn't have much for a 1vs1, it's great for playing vs a gank tho.

David_gorda
08-16-2018, 05:20 PM
Kensai is good but definitly not Broken. Think its a fair character and one of the most well Done kits.

JaerTheBear
08-16-2018, 05:43 PM
1. His top light is not REALLY slow

2.I dont remember saying anything about his top heavy cancels

3. It DOES do 20 damage, go into the training mode and see for yourself

4. Shinobi having better dodges is subjective, also i recall saying the distance he is carried by the dodge should be brought in line with everyone else, shinobi is a special case because he has a special dodge

5. Demons embrace is not faster than a kensei top heavy lmao what game are you playing

6. I mentioned DE and Raider zone because those are Special cases which need specific circumstances to do damage greater than a Kensei top heavy

7. His speed was never mentioned in my original post , hes no faster than other vanguards

Also , he might be as slow as Raider, but bringing that up doesnt mean much, hes got about teice as many options as Raider does.


Kensei should not be doing as much damage as a top heavy from warden, with a side heavy that is faster, and then have a top heavy which does more damage than any other non-circumstance activated move from any other character.

Hes not a heavy, hes a vanguard, he shouldnt be dishing out damage akin a Shugokis charged heavys with his much faster heavy attacks.

RexXZ347
08-16-2018, 05:47 PM
1. His top light is not REALLY slow

2.I dont remember saying anything about his top heavy cancels

3. It DOES do 20 damage, go into the training mode and see for yourself

4. Shinobi having better dodges is subjective, also i recall saying the distance he is carried by the dodge should be brought in line with everyone else, shinobi is a special case because he has a special dodge

5. Demons embrace is not faster than a kensei top heavy lmao what game are you playing

6. I mentioned DE and Raider zone because those are Special cases which need specific circumstances to do damage greater than a Kensei top heavy

7. His speed was never mentioned in my original post , hes no faster than other vanguards

Also , he might be as slow as Raider, but bringing that up doesnt mean much, hes got about teice as many options as Raider does.


Kensei should not be doing as much damage as a top heavy from warden, with a side heavy that is faster, and then have a top heavy which does more damage than any other non-circumstance activated move from any other character.

Hes not a heavy, hes a vanguard, he shouldnt be dishing out damage akin a Shugokis charged heavys with his much faster heavy attacks.

I suppose you are using shugoki? There are 2 worst characters in this game. Shugoki and aramusha. We can't compete with S tier characters.

Charmzzz
08-16-2018, 05:50 PM
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit#gid=0

There you go with ALL the Data. Kensei Top Light is 500ms, dealing 20 Damage for example...

Btw his Top Heavy Unblockable is the third hit in a Chain. Never the first (except after GB wall splat).

JaerTheBear
08-16-2018, 05:51 PM
No im...not using shugoki, i was just using him as an example because he has some of the most damaging attacks in the game

AzureSky.
08-16-2018, 05:55 PM
I suppose you are using shugoki? There are 2 worst characters in this game. Shugoki and aramusha. We can't compete with S tier characters.

20 damage on top is low taking in mind shinobi does more with his free second one (24 in total for a 500ms attack, any direction) , same with shaman (20 damage in any direction with 500ms attacks), also they only have 5 less health in consequence to that.


you need to add the damage of the FREE second hits, kensei top light is average.

new players this days..... here you have something, data on all of the moves. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit#gid=0

Charmzzz
08-16-2018, 06:03 PM
20 damage on top is low taking in mind shinobi does more with his free second one (24 in total for a 500ms attack, any direction) , same with shaman (20 damage in any direction with 500ms attacks), also they only have 5 less health in consequence to that.


you need to add the damage of the FREE second hits, kensei top light is average.

new players this days..... here you have something, data on all of the moves. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit#gid=0

Nope, it is NOT average... Most Lights are 13-15 Damage.

JaerTheBear
08-16-2018, 06:07 PM
20 damage on top is low taking in mind shinobi does more with his free second one (24 in total for a 500ms attack, any direction) , same with shaman (20 damage in any direction with 500ms attacks), also they only have 5 less health in consequence to that.


you need to add the damage of the FREE second hits, kensei top light is average.

new players this days..... here you have something, data on all of the moves. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit#gid=0

Im not a new player, i have nearly 30 reps on console.

Im "new" to pc, and have played for honor since season 1.

AzureSky.
08-16-2018, 06:12 PM
Im not a new player, i have nearly 30 reps on console.

Im "new" to pc, and have played for honor since season 1.

well as you can see there's plenty of characters with lights that deal that damage or more, (new warden for example has side 18 dmg 500ms lights that give him positive frames + mixups and in the top light 500ms move if he uses it to parry he gets 55 damage (2cond attack free, remember to always add the free damage you get on a move) this all on a 500 ms move. New valkyrie gets 24 damage ones the same way, remember that kensei can ONLY do a 500 ms attack either from zone attack (that takes away 60% of his stamina bar) or top light, so it's really easy to predict and play vs if you know this.

JaerTheBear
08-16-2018, 06:17 PM
well as you can see there's plenty of characters with lights that deal that damage or more, (new warden for example has side 18 dmg 500ms lights that give him positive frames + mixups and in the top light 500ms move if he uses it to parry he gets 55 damage (2cond attack free, remember to always add the free damage you get on a move) this all on a 500 ms move. New valkyrie gets 24 damage ones the same way, remember that kensei can ONLY do a 500 ms attack either from zone attack (that takes away 60% of his stamina bar) or top light, so it's really easy to predict and play vs if you know this.


This isnt about mixups or combos. This is about raw damage from a single attack -_-

AzureSky.
08-16-2018, 06:35 PM
This isnt about mixups or combos. This is about raw damage from a single attack -_-

Dude, it's SAFE damage, damage you get for free that the other character can't block, it would be the same if kensei had a second free damage on top light that deals 5 damage and his first one deals 15 (like shaman for example) It doesn't change a thing, you get hit and you get the full damage of the move.

A shinobi attacks you with a side 500 ms light, first hit deals 14 damage, second one 10 damage, ADD the numbers, you get 24 damage, the opponent CAN'T block it, it's safe damage, doesn't matter that it's done in 2 moves or 1.

PepsiBeastin
08-16-2018, 07:16 PM
Dude, it's SAFE damage, damage you get for free that the other character can't block, it would be the same if kensei had a second free damage on top light that deals 5 damage and his first one deals 15 (like shaman for example) It doesn't change a thing, you get hit and you get the full damage of the move.

A shinobi attacks you with a side 500 ms light, first hit deals 14 damage, second one 10 damage, ADD the numbers, you get 24 damage, the opponent CAN'T block it, it's safe damage, doesn't matter that it's done in 2 moves or 1.

Technically it isn't "safe" or "free", any move that gives you hyperarmor can hit double light heroes before their second light lands. So yes, a single light with the full damage does have a bit of an advantage.

NHLGoldenKnight
08-16-2018, 07:30 PM
While I do believe Kensei should be nerfed just a tiny little bit, mostly his damage and dodge range, I am most irritated by Shaman or Shinobi as others have mentioned. Shinobi only needs to slap you 5 times with his double light and you are gone. Which sounds harder than it is . In reality, you can't really see his moves because his hands barely move and if you are playing a big guy, and Shinobi is fighting you face to face, you depend on guard stance gadget which really doesn't work that well in 4v4 with all the lag and other crap.

Arekonator
08-16-2018, 08:28 PM
Only problematic thing on kensei is the forward tracking on his zone.

HazelrahFirefly
08-16-2018, 09:15 PM
Only problematic thing on kensei is the forward tracking on his zone.

Agreed. There's not even animation for his lower half sometimes, just a slide forward faster than a human can see. Without the indicator it would never be reactable.

Helnekromancer
08-17-2018, 12:32 AM
Fighting Kensei's for me is the same for Berserker, they will pre-swing abusing their super armor and as soon as they get close they soft feint.

With Kensei, he can do any one of his starters into a unblockable top or he could soft feint that unblockble into side heavies, side lights, a top light, or grab

Or he could side dodge heavy into unblockable, soft feint that unblockable into a side heavy and feint that side heavy into a light, heavy or grab

All while having super armor to back him up.

He's a feinting machine and it's so annoying to play against as a Nobushi,

Klingentaenz3r
08-17-2018, 08:34 AM
Side heavys doing 40 damage, as much as a warden top heavy

Top light doing 20 damage, i feel its too high, especially since it can be guarenteed with a pommel strike

His side dodge attack carries him too far, whilst playing Valkyrie, upon shield bashing and a Kensei performing a dodge attack, it would carry the kensei around the Valkyrie in like, a 270° Ark.

Also, Kenseis zone attack carries him too far towards his opponent during the first strike.

I propose lowering all of Kenseis heavy damage values by 5 points, and lowering his top light damage value by 5, and bringing his dodge in line with the rest of the cast, and making his zone attack move him forward less..

Absolutely with you there, mate. I wouldn't however necessarily lower the 20 dmg lights by 5, but something between 15-18 would be suitable I think. Having the 40 dmg side heavy that is guaranteed on a guardbreak ist ridiculous. He already has a very good guard break and on top of it the ability to get one guaranteed off a superior blocked attack by a dodge.

His dodge distance and especially the distance traveled when using the dodge attacks is too great. Similar to berserker it messes with your camera view as it desperately tries to follow the Kensei's trail often leading to situations where you cannot maintain control in a fight against many opponents since you snap around and eat other attacks that came beforehand from the right and now from the left or somewhat in between. If you happen to be not locked on to kensei not seldomly he travels so far around you that your attack indicator gets swapt to a different direction at the very last second. And of course it depending on the surroundings it often really messes up your view on the Kensei making it much more a pain in the *** to deal with. But again, the real issue lies in my opinion within how good it is with helping in any gank scenario. As for when the Kensei is ganked the distance traveled tremendously helps him in 1vX scenarios to get out of reach of players that want to flank him or get him from behind. Due to the good iframes he can often phase through (yes, Vakris, I also know your videos in which some heavies actually tracked or stopped the dodge attack in an early phase :D - shuuu!) multiple attempts to catch/interrupt him. The dodge attack is also one of those that is much better at avoiding the tracking of warden's charged shoulder bash btw. I believe this is not intended but lies in the nature of the far travel and spinning around the target... or I-frames.. I don't know *shrug*.

I also agree on your point with the travel distance of his zone attack.

So if they would address those points and adjust things a little I believe Kensei would be more in line. He still would be very easy to use effectively and he would still be one of the if not the very best anti-gank hero (his superior range alone makes sure of that).

Ah and yeah I still forget to throw in the obligatory feat rant about the unblockable lvl4 feat and his stamina recovery feat which I see both as something that the character does not need to have or that should be at least adjusted

Buggy.Blaster
08-17-2018, 08:36 AM
kensal is manageable. i wish all the heroes were strong in the way kendal is and not like the zerker spam op. if a character is op but u can still react to it I'm fine with it. conc is op in the fact that u just have to eat bashes over and over and it takes no skill. Zerker same thing, just eating feinted spam all night. i still think the kensai is the best rework in the game and would be sad to see him changed. I'm sure in marching fire everyone will forget about how the kensal is as the new heroes I'm afraid are going to curb stomp the old roster. i don't main kensai as u can see from my profile but he is really cool the way he is. fun to fight against them and fun to play as them sometimes too.

Klingentaenz3r
08-17-2018, 09:16 AM
kensal is manageable. i wish all the heroes were strong in the way kendal is and not like the zerker spam op. if a character is op but u can still react to it I'm fine with it. conc is op in the fact that u just have to eat bashes over and over and it takes no skill. Zerker same thing, just eating feinted spam all night. i still think the kensai is the best rework in the game and would be sad to see him changed. I'm sure in marching fire everyone will forget about how the kensal is as the new heroes I'm afraid are going to curb stomp the old roster. i don't main kensai as u can see from my profile but he is really cool the way he is. fun to fight against them and fun to play as them sometimes too.

Buggy, that is not the topic :) We are not talking about whether or not he is BROKEN / overpowered in a sense that he cannot be beaten, we are talking numbers and adjustments to get him more in line and eliminating/addressing issues that should be evened out. I agree with you that I rather have to face a hero that is beatable with higher dmg values over one that bests me in a frustrating loop of cutscene like moves which provide little room to fight back due to the loss of control.

Vakris_One
08-17-2018, 10:36 AM
Buggy, that is not the topic :) We are not talking about whether or not he is BROKEN / overpowered in a sense that he cannot be beaten, we are talking numbers and adjustments to get him more in line and eliminating/addressing issues that should be evened out.
There are no issues with Kensei that should be evened out except for the distance forward his zone propels him. He is the single most well balanced hero in the entire game right now in terms of his kit and the skill ceiling necessary to use him to his fullest potential unlike the "one super strong move" easy mode heroes like Conq and Warden or the horribly gimped low tier heroes like Shugoki and Aramusha.

The OP talks pure nerfs for the Kensei but doesn't seem to understand the reasons why the Kensei has what he has nor do they understand how the balance of the hero will be affected.

1. His top light is average speed for a light attack: 500ms, and he only gets 20 damage from the top light meaning you can guard against it. The 20 damage is there to make sure he can put a bit of pressure on his opponent into protecting his top because Kensei's side lights are incredibly slow for light attacks - 600ms. They are easily parried on reaction and you cannot surprise anyone with them if thrown from neutral.

If you want to nerf his top light damage to 15 then you have to increase the speed of his side lights to 500ms like most other characters have including the Warden - the only other reworked Vanguard. Otherwise you're not being fair to the Kensei. You cannot just take away from an already well balanced hero without compensating him with something else. Otherwise you make them unbalanced.

2. Plenty of characters do 40 damage from heavies and most of those characters have faster heavies than Kensei. Comparing them to Warden top heavy and saying they should be nerfed is faulty logic. Warden's kit and play style work differently than Kensei. Warden can guarrantee his 40 damage top heavy from a fully charged shoulder bash - the single strongest bait and punish tool in the game. Whereas Kensei always has to risk being blocked, parried, dodged or stuffed out of his soft feints in order to try and get a hit with his heavies.

Of the two characters Kensei's risk vs reward is much better balanced and gives his opponent much more of an opportunity to stop him. Warden on the other hand risks next to nothing by baiting a consistent reaction with his shoulder bash cancel while his reward is huge by comparison to what he risks - you cannot parry or block a bash. Your only choices are to dodge it or risk a guess that he will charge it and try to stuff him with a light on reaction which he can:
- cancel the bash and parry for 40 damage
- let an uncharged bash fly which will beat out all 600-500ms light attacks that weren't thrown on prediction. Meaning you can't stuff him or dodge him on pure reaction to seeing the uncharged bash unless you have access to a 400ms light from neutral. To nerf Kensei down to 35 while leaving Warden at 40, the character who can guarrantee his 40 damage from a very strong bait and punish tool, is falty logic.

3. His dodge attack moving him more sideways distance across the floor than other dodge attacks is for two reasons that are important to understand:
1) It is the slowest dodge attack in the game and takes the longest amount of time to land a hit, thus the longer travel distance than Orochi, Zerker, Shaman, Shinobi, Glad, PK and Valk, who are all much faster to land and much less telegraphed.

2) The distance travelled in his dodge attack contributes to the Kensei's role as an anti-gank hero. Meaning he was/is designed to have a bit more of a chance against attack spamming ganks than other heroes.

The distance travelled during his dodge attack has no extra beneficial effect for him in a 1v1 so the point about him circling around a Valk has no point to make. If you would nerf the distance travelled you impact his fundamental anti-gank hero design without reason and without any basis from a 1v1 perspective. You would need to make his dodge attack as fast as others to counterbalance this and again you would still be removing his role as a crowd control anti-gank hero, which is one of the fundamental characteristics of this character. In short: there is no logical basis for asking for a nerf to his distance travelled during a dodge attack as it has no effect in a 1v1 while being required to make him an effective choice in gank scenarios.

4. His top unblockable finisher does 45 damage to act as an added bit of pressure and an incentive to his opponent to watch out for it. The threat of that damage is what enables his finisher soft feints to work in trying to mind game the opponent. Kensei is the mind game hero, it is his core principle as a character. If his unblockable's damage was the same as his side finishers, i.e. 40. There would be no added threat from it and thus no incentive for the opponent to react to it in the way they do now. If they're going to get hit with 40 damage from any side then they're not under any pressure to protect themselves more urgently from any particular side. It destroys the fundamental and necessary pressure of a hero built around mind games.

Hopefully all of that helps to explain what kind of hero Kensei is designed to be, how well balanced he is and why it's important to understand how a hero works and why before suggesting outright nerfs that would result in the hero becoming unbalanced and sub par at their intended role(s).

Siegfried-Z
08-17-2018, 10:43 AM
Tired To argue about it... really.
Train and that's all. . Kensei is not difficult to fight against in 1v1. But if you try to gank him there he is damn strong. . That's the point .

David_gorda
08-17-2018, 12:42 PM
Not going to quote everything vakris Said but i agree with him and well explained.

ArmoredChocobo
08-17-2018, 01:50 PM
After playing Kensei for a while I think more characters should be like him, not him being like other characters.

Klingentaenz3r
08-17-2018, 03:28 PM
There are no issues with Kensei that should be evened out except for the distance forward his zone propels him. He is the single most well balanced hero in the entire game right now in terms of his kit and the skill ceiling necessary to use him to his fullest potential unlike the "one super strong move" easy mode heroes like Conq and Warden or the horribly gimped low tier heroes like Shugoki and Aramusha.

The OP talks pure nerfs for the Kensei but doesn't seem to understand the reasons why the Kensei has what he has nor do they understand how the balance of the hero will be affected.

1. His top light is average speed for a light attack: 500ms, and he only gets 20 damage from the top light meaning you can guard against it. The 20 damage is there to make sure he can put a bit of pressure on his opponent into protecting his top because Kensei's side lights are incredibly slow for light attacks - 600ms. They are easily parried on reaction and you cannot surprise anyone with them if thrown from neutral.

If you want to nerf his top light damage to 15 then you have to increase the speed of his side lights to 500ms like most other characters have including the Warden - the only other reworked Vanguard. Otherwise you're not being fair to the Kensei. You cannot just take away from an already well balanced hero without compensating him with something else. Otherwise you make them unbalanced.

2. Plenty of characters do 40 damage from heavies and most of those characters have faster heavies than Kensei. Comparing them to Warden top heavy and saying they should be nerfed is faulty logic. Warden's kit and play style work differently than Kensei. Warden can guarrantee his 40 damage top heavy from a fully charged shield bash - the single strongest bait and punish tool in the game. Whereas Kensei always has to risk being blocked, parried, dodged or stuffed out of his soft feints in order to try and get a hit with his heavies.

Of the two characters Kensei's risk vs reward is much better balanced and gives his opponent much more of an opportunity to stop him. Warden on the other hand risks next to nothing by baiting a consistent reaction with his shoulder bash cancel while his reward is huge by comparison to what he risks - you cannot parry or block a bash. Your only choices are to dodge it or risk a guess that he will charge it and try to stuff him with a light on reaction which he can:
- cancel the bash and parry for 40 damage
- let an uncharged bash fly which will beat out all 600-500ms light attacks that weren't thrown on prediction. Meaning you can't stuff him or dodge him on pure reaction to seeing the uncharged bash unless you have access to a 400ms light from neutral. To nerf Kensei down to 35 while leaving Warden at 40, the character who can guarrantee his 40 damage from a very strong bait and punish tool, is falty logic.

3. His dodge attack moving him more sideways distance across the floor than other dodge attacks is for two reasons that are important to understand:
1) It is the slowest dodge attack in the game and takes the longest amount of time to land a hit, thus the longer travel distance than Orochi, Zerker, Shaman, Shinobi, Glad, PK and Valk, who are all much faster to land and much less telegraphed.

2) The distance travelled in his dodge attack contributes to the Kensei's role as an anti-gank hero. Meaning he was/is designed to have a bit more of a chance against attack spamming ganks than other heroes.

The distance travelled during his dodge attack has no extra beneficial effect for him in a 1v1 so the point about him circling around a Valk has no point to make. If you would nerf the distance travelled you impact his fundamental anti-gank hero design without reason and without any basis from a 1v1 perspective. You would need to make his dodge attack as fast as others to counterbalance this and again you would still be removing his role as a crowd control anti-gank hero, which is one of the fundamental characteristics of this character. In short: there is no logical basis for asking for a nerf to his distance travelled during a dodge attack as it has no effect in a 1v1 while being required to make him an effective choice in gank scenarios.

4. His top unblockable finisher does 45 damage to act as an added bit of pressure and an incentive to his opponent to watch out for it. The threat of that damage is what enables his finisher soft feints to work in trying to mind game the opponent. Kensei is the mind game hero, it is his core principle as a character. If his unblockable's damage was the same as his side finishers, i.e. 40. There would be no added threat from it and thus no incentive for the opponent to react to it in the way they do now. If they're going to get hit with 40 damage from any side then they're not under any pressure to protect themselves more urgently from any particular side. It destroys the fundamental and necessary pressure of a hero built around mind games.

Hopefully all of that helps to explain what kind of hero Kensei is designed to be, how well balanced he is and why it's important to understand how a hero works and why before suggesting outright nerfs that would result in the hero becoming unbalanced and sub par at their intended role(s).

Thx for the long reply. It really opens up perspective, well put. I also have to correct my previous statement about the 40 dmg off a GB. That was false assumption. He deals 25 dmg on a side heavy because the GB acts as a combo starter (which I knew beforehand at least for the top unblockable but I forget to consider it to come to the right conclusion).

You and basically Siegfried-Z said also " The distance travelled in his dodge attack contributes to the Kensei's role as an anti-gank hero". Yes, agreed, but I as I see it I honestly I find that he is a little too strong there in that regard. Plus, it is not as you correctly put it not his only trade to make him good as an anti-gank hero, but a contributing point. I just want it to get slighly less prominently strong as it is now. He doesn't need to be "damn strong" in that regard, strong/pretty strong should be enough :). And that is achieved by reducing the travel distance in my opinion.
I of course understand your point about that it might be a slower and more telegraphed attack than other side dodge attacks and I would be without a shred of doubt down for a little speed up in exchange. Although having a less good dodge attack than actual assassin would in my opinion also be justified. It is still a heavy which means less possible punishment and chain possibility.

To be honest as a side note the fact that it is slower or that it can come out late makes it also a bit more potentially ambiguous imho. Meaning sometimes I tend to check whether or not my Kensei opponent just tries to dodge and if I could punish it with a guardbreak but then the attack still comes out and beats that attempt (that is I guess when the Kensei delays using it to the max). Never had luck so far with GB catch on startup (which according to my resources should be possible) so I personally just go for my bait into parry and be good. But I am getting off topic here. Point is although that it can be rather slow it also has it's advantages to it. But I rather would like to concentrate on previously mentioned traits that come with this move for group fights as these outweight any downsides to it in my opinion.

yfkutfui
08-17-2018, 04:04 PM
I was at zone A when a Kensei at zone C did a forward light and caught me, I threw out a side/top heavy/light/unblockable and guess what? he side dashed and left me swinging at air yet and got me instead with his side heavy, do they even need to block anymore? or does the side dash negate every other opponents move?

I even watched two Kensies go at it and it was just side dash/heavy over and over, the determining factor being who timed their side dash better,

Arekonator
08-17-2018, 05:26 PM
Kensei Guardbreaks and Throws count as first and second attacks in the chain. Therefore his side heavy from guardbreak counts as second in the chain and only does 25 dmg (not 40). which is below average as far as guardbreak punishes go.
He also cant abuse his hyperarmor unless you let him get to his chain finishers.
And if you are having trouble with kensei who uses his dash heavy over and over, then i am afraid its just "get gud" issue.

NHLGoldenKnight
08-17-2018, 06:37 PM
Well, there must be a reason why Kensei and Berserker kick so many butts in 4v4, I wouldn't say that we all have to get better at the game. I know his moves yet he hits me so easy that is really hard to explain. I can block PK with much higher % than Kensei. Hell, it is easier to fight PK and Warden at the same time than just one average Kensei.

Others don't want to admit, but his dodge attack is his strongest move and that is what players are using the most. It covers large area, pretty much gives you safe space and can beat any other dodge attack if you keep your distance at right spot, just enough to reach them with the top of your blade and just enough for their weapons to come up short. In general, it is strange that Vanguard has the most powerful dodge attack in the game. Raider has dodge stun tap, which is meh and everyone is ready for it. Guess who doesn't have dodge attack and will be only Vanguard without most powerfull 4v4 anti gank tool? Yes, Warden. Because when Tiandi shows up, even Kensei will feel useful like a black powder revolver in SAS team armed with Glocks.

Some would say you need to be patient when dealing with Kensei which is true. However, you can't afford patience in 4v4 because in 5-10 seconds someone is coming. You can just hope it is your team who is coming, if not, you are dead meat, Kensei or someone else.

So, is Kensei too powerful? In 4v4, almost. I would say very powerful, not too powerful. But to be hones, in 4v4 there are many more unbalanced and op heroes. Centurion is the worst because you will end up on your *** pretty fast and in group fight, that means you are dead. Highlander was favorite of mine before rework, but now I see him as OP unblockables abusing sob. With ha and crazy tracking on his throws, he is one of the most powerful heroes in 4v4 to the point that I would call him OP. Yet, barely anyone has issues with him. And Shaman and Berserker are special example of thrash heroes which are regularly picked by tryhard commandos. Difference between them and Kensei is that least,mKensei actually has to fight on equal terms and can't cheese his way out. I can appreciate that.

Arekonator
08-17-2018, 06:52 PM
"Kensei dodge attack is his strongest move"
=
"i have no clue what i am talking about"

"everyone is ready for raider dodge stun-tap".
Its irellevant if everyone is ready for it as long as you are using it as punish for enemy attack. Then, in fact,it actually have higher chance of landing then kensei, because its not so awfully slow.
Anything you can punish with kensei dodge attack you can also punish with warden dodge-shoulderbash which gives you double light for 21dmg with another shoulderbash mixup as a followup. Saying Warden does not have a dodge attack is wrong and technically, at current state it is arguably the best one among the vanguards so far.

HazelrahFirefly
08-17-2018, 07:10 PM
"Kensei dodge attack is his strongest move"
=
"i have no clue what i am talking about"

"everyone is ready for raider dodge stun-tap".
Its irellevant if everyone is ready for it as long as you are using it as punish for enemy attack. Then, in fact,it actually have higher chance of landing then kensei, because its not so awfully slow.
Anything you can punish with kensei dodge attack you can also punish with warden dodge-shoulderbash which gives you double light for 21dmg with another shoulderbash mixup as a followup. Saying Warden does not have a dodge attack is wrong and technically, at current state it is arguably the best one among the vanguards so far.

It's probably the best dodge maneuver in the game now, after the Conq's that is.

NHLGoldenKnight
08-17-2018, 07:16 PM
Point is that stun tap is one of few moves that is getting consistently parried, even in 4v4. Reach is short and you have to be close to your opponent. Kenseis dodge attack doesn't get parried often in 4v4 and it does have much longer reach. Also, it is a proper attack while Raiders stun tap doesn't mean much unless you connect which can be harder in group fights.

You can't compare Wardens shoulder bash with real dodte attack. First, you have to land your bash, and secondly, by the time you start your dodge (which looks like Apollo 11 is launching ) I can already be out of your bash and nicely slap your butt with my odachi. Only way you can get something out of that bash is narrow spaces where there is not enough room for Kensei's dance maneuver.

PS, Conq is someone that has mythical powers in 1v1 but in 4v4 he is just a turd. He can hide behind his shield and cry because I can spit further than his flail can reach. Yet to find Conq that dominates 4v4 in such a way that Berserker , Kensei or Highlander can.

Arekonator
08-17-2018, 07:24 PM
>best
but
>slowest

Simply said, no. Also shaman 20dmg 500ms heavy dodge that starts chain in exactly the same way.
As i said, warden can punish everything kensei can with more damage (i know, its one point, but still) AND stronger followup.
Orochi and Zerker got dodge attacks that are faster AND tracks you through the dodge.
Valk is faster AND got same superior block on the first part (which can be exploited for deflect-like move with a lot more damage.
Literally every dodge-attack in the game is faster and/or hits just as hard.
Stun tap gets parried a lot, but only when its soft-feinted. If you use it as dodge punish it lands as often or more than kensei.
Only thing kensei dodge-attack got going for it is wide hitbox and higher damage (which is still matched by some),. Thats it.

TL;DR you are wrong.

NHLGoldenKnight
08-17-2018, 07:32 PM
I don't think I am. Speed isn't everything and reach is as important. Kensei , if keeping right distance, can pretty much stay out of reach of every other hero with dodge attack and still hit them. Also, his dodge is really dodge that can completely move him to better position during fight, most importantly in 4v4 fights. Other heroes have dodge attack but they basically just spin around themselves while Kensei spins around everyone else. Valk and Nobu have dodge only in its name, function wise it is barely a dodge. Orochi, Shaman and Berserker just keep spinning around themselves. Like a cheap dancer around a rusty pole compared to Kensei.

I would know since Kensei is my anti Shaman/Shinobi/PK/Orrochi/Berserker/Aramusha weapon. And it works perfectly fine, like a well tuned Beretta 92FS :)

Arekonator
08-17-2018, 07:37 PM
>You dont think it is like it its, but it is.

NHLGoldenKnight
08-17-2018, 07:47 PM
Well, we all base our opinions on experience we have. And since we are different people, our experience is different which makes our opinions different as well.

Arekonator
08-17-2018, 07:51 PM
Well, yeah.
From my experience, kensei gets edge in teamfights because his wide, sweeping hitboxes, its comparatively lot easier to hit multiple people.
Outside of that, if you overuse it, you are going to get punished BAD, comparatively more to other dodge attacks, because how slow you are, more people are able to punish you when sucessfully baited.

PepsiBeastin
08-17-2018, 08:05 PM
Well, yeah.
if you overuse it, you are going to get punished BAD

Yes, because getting hit with a light attack is "getting punished BAD"

Arekonator
08-17-2018, 08:11 PM
Yes, because getting hit with a light attack is "getting punished BAD"

Heavy parry gives you anything from 15 to 25dmg, NOT counting situational punishes for 50 or more that you can get from specific parry counters.
Do you want to get MORE from literally the easiest ****ing parry in the game?

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
08-18-2018, 02:01 AM
Ken and cent seem to be able to attack and then block any punishment for a missed attack. When you're a shugoki and you try to trade with someone who can block and attack better then you can with your hyper armor... Sigh....they have 0 recovery time.

Vellinath
08-18-2018, 04:32 PM
What makes him too good is his iframes while dodge attacking...imo they should have never given him that move to begin with.
They need to reduce the iframes so it actually starts requiring minimal skill and timing to execute a dodge attack...just that would be enough.

Arekonator
08-18-2018, 04:42 PM
What makes him too good is his iframes while dodge attacking...imo they should have never given him that move to begin with.
They need to reduce the iframes so it actually starts requiring minimal skill and timing to execute a dodge attack...just that would be enough.

Those "magical extra iframes" were debunked long ago.

Klingentaenz3r
08-20-2018, 10:55 AM
Those "magical extra iframes" were debunked long ago.

Do you have a source for that? I was hoping Freeze-TT would at some point check those dodge attacks for differentiations but AFAIK he hasn't done that yet and I don't know of any other Youtuber/Reddit Data Miner who tested those things in detail frame by frame. I only know invidual examples from for example vakris displaying how a kensei got hit with a heavy during the dodge attack or similar. But that honestly doesn't help much in that regard. I really would like to know why I sometimes can hit for instance an orochi out of his light attack dodge and sometimes I can't (in both cases of course baited and tried to intercept during mid-dodge), when iframes start and when they end and if certain attacks have better chances of catching than others (angle, types and so on)

Vakris_One
08-20-2018, 11:38 AM
Do you have a source for that? I was hoping Freeze-TT would at some point check those dodge attacks for differentiations but AFAIK he hasn't done that yet and I don't know of any other Youtuber/Reddit Data Miner who tested those things in detail frame by frame. I only know invidual examples from for example vakris displaying how a kensei got hit with a heavy during the dodge attack or similar. But that honestly doesn't help much in that regard. I really would like to know why I sometimes can hit for instance an orochi out of his light attack dodge and sometimes I can't (in both cases of course baited and tried to intercept during mid-dodge), when iframes start and when they end and if certain attacks have better chances of catching than others (angle, types and so on)
Out of curiosity what would you expect to find from a frame by frame analysis that my videos haven't already shown you? I'm not saying my vids were of the calibre of Freeze's frame data analysis but they still show very clearly that as soon as the attack portion of the animation starts that hero is no longer under i-frames and is vulnerable to sustaining damage from an attack. The i-frames begin and end with the dodge. There are no i-frames in play during the entirety of the attacking animation itself, from startup to finish.

Klingentaenz3r
08-21-2018, 12:31 PM
Out of curiosity what would you expect to find from a frame by frame analysis that my videos haven't already shown you?

Basically what I've said in my last sentence:
"I really would like to know why I sometimes can hit for instance an orochi out of his light attack dodge and sometimes I can't (in both cases of course baited and tried to intercept during mid-dodge), when iframes start and when they end and if certain attacks have better chances of catching than others (angle, types and so on)." So basically I am not so certain if there are no i-frames during the entirey of the attack animation AND I wonder if different attack types or/combined with different attacking angles make a difference and have to ability to hit.
This is my personal hunch so far of what I could observe throughout the seasons regarding this topic. With season 6 I believe the catching abilities of heavy attacks improved across the board which were beforehand much harder to land on a dodging opponent. Could correlate with the introduction of standardized dodge mechanics but I find it fishy since dodge distances on side dodges weren't touched. I have got to go back and review some of my recordings upon your statement however, looking more critical whether or not I might hit those opponents at a point you stated they are usually vulnerable or not.

dinosaurlicker
08-22-2018, 08:45 AM
Nerf Kensei’s zone to 600ms and he’s balanced