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Chobbsy99
08-13-2018, 05:49 PM
Iím new to posting on the forums; Iíve been reading them for a while but this is the first time Iíve ever started a thread, so please be nice!

Having read the forums for a while, much of the main talking points to do with 4v4 are ganking and revenge. In other words, how to balance fighting multiple opponents.

The issue is that it is impossible to make it fair, and it should be so. If it were consistently possible to win/survive 1v4 encounters due to some sort of debuff/enhanced revenge then it would be a huge advantage to fight 1v2. I know the game has drifted away from realism but it would still be a little ridiculous if that were the case.

The best way, I feel, to rebalance 4v4 without a total rework of the gamemodes is to make deaths less punishing. I would argue that respawn delay should be significantly reduced if killed by more than two opponents. It could even be removed altogether, but I accept that may be a little far.

Furthermore, it should be impossible to execute opponents if they were fighting 1v3+. Kills would seem less satisfying and it would allow revives. This may reduce the incentives to deathball a little.

Constructive criticism is always welcome!

Siegfried-Z
08-13-2018, 10:29 PM
That's not really constructive but i like it.

Good idea in my opinion.

ChampionRuby50g
08-14-2018, 02:10 AM
Gotta say, Iím a fan off this idea. I like the idea of a smaller respawn time, something like 5 seconds instead of 12 if youíre a victim of a gank. As well as there been no chance to execute if you 3v1 someone, as the gank squad will now be weaker as they donít have the opportunity to execute, and thus heal and gain stamina back.

HazelrahFirefly
08-14-2018, 02:21 AM
Whoa, really good ideas. Combine those with more objective based goals in order to win and Dominion just might be fun again.

SpaceJim12
08-14-2018, 10:30 AM
It's really intresting and nice idea!

I thought about all games where you could be outnumbered, and none of this games offer somekind of help, buff etc.
If you could survive 5v1 in Heroes of the Storm (for example) it's all due to your skill, not a revenge or something. And if you took couple guys with you, it's good for your team and bad for enemy.

Maybe it's really a time to remove revenge for good? This mechanic was stupid from day one.

Chobbsy99
08-14-2018, 11:21 AM
Thanks for the kind responses guys! Good to know that the For Honour community isn't actually a total salt-fest. Perhaps kills could also grant no renown if more than 2v1? No feats even in late game would make deathballing a nightmare. I know it's already reduced but it's not much of a deterrent.

chukblok
08-14-2018, 01:12 PM
Yep good ideas
I still say just remove takedowns/deaths altogether from the scoreboard. replace with something else. whats the point of those im dominion? would that not solve deathballs? and i still also say make points count only if you stay on point

SpaceJim12
08-14-2018, 01:48 PM
and i still also say make points count only if you stay on point

It's something community ask for too long.=)
I don't have a clue why devs still didn't do this. Looks like they want Dominion be full of salt and stupidity.
And while they don't do anything with Dominion in season 7, I think nobody will play it in season 8, when Breach will release.

David_gorda
08-14-2018, 03:15 PM
Agree with op, i also think someone needs to stay on the dominion point for the team to get points.

CandleInTheDark
08-14-2018, 04:37 PM
I do think that dominion needs to become less about kills and more about the objective. Kills should not have such a large impact given that's what we have deathmatch for and in the current state it is pretty much skirmish+.

My own thoughts are

- A control decay on unoccupied zones, let's say ten to twenty seconds before it goes white again
- No scoreboard points for a kill, no renown except for assassins (that's where they get their renown boost afterall)

To balance the fact that points will stop coming a time after they leave their zone I would go the opposite direction with respawn and make it five seconds more. Put in with the control decay I think that this makes it so that going as a four in one co-ordinated push can get two to all three zones without keeping the advantage that comes with their closer zone being a constant source of points.

TheTool85
08-14-2018, 07:25 PM
Hm
I think the shorter respawn time when being ganked is an interesting idea so far.
But i honestly have no clue how the game system would recognize a gank situation...
Should that be triggered by assists?
Or should it count the enemies locked on a certain player based on time?
I have no idea, really.

sgt.smegma
08-14-2018, 10:28 PM
recently I was playing few dominion-matches. the ganking in alot of these matches takes a big part of the fun away (imho at least). I think the best you can do is to group up and try to fragment that deathball. but with strangers in a team it seems cose to impossible to coordoinate that way (even if you spam "group up).

atm you have a steady time to respawn depending on how (and when) you died. this leads to the situation that every now and then one lonely fighter is running around and gets catched by the deathball.
so I started to think about some other games I played before (etqw for ex) an how they handle respawn. could it help against that deathballing by starting in waves of reinforcement?!? like (for ex) every 30 sec there is a wave of respawn so that all those rotting corpses on the battlefield can rejoin the fight.

personally I sure would prefer to reinforce in waves. some might say that this would feature deathballing in general but deathball/ ganking already is there but we have a hard time to crack the nut.

(state the obvious: this ainīt my mothertongue so excuse me pls and I hope I could at least transport my thoughts)

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
08-15-2018, 02:59 AM
I think shortening the respawn time on ganked Victims seems like something that is a good idea to try to see how it affects game play at the very least.

Neon_WiDoW
08-15-2018, 05:24 AM
Furthermore, it should be impossible to execute opponents if they were fighting 1v3+. Kills would seem less satisfying and it would allow revives. This may reduce the incentives to deathball a little.


I really like this idea. It would force players to either stay and guard the body. Or move on in the death ball allowing teammates to revive them. Its an interesting idea. But executions are so cool in this game it would be sad to not see them as often.

Im not sure how everyone would like that but it would be interesting to try it out.

SpaceJim12
08-15-2018, 09:45 AM
After 10 hours spend in Tribute, I think there is one more thing, that could help make gunks less rewarding.

I tried to understand, why I don't feel helpless and useless aftar stand and died in 1v3 situation. And then I realised, that after this 1v3, my opponents had half or even less of their healthbars. And they can't do anything with it.
So, my point here, is that devs should remove healing from zones. No healing at all in Dominion. If you stupid enough to join the gunksquad, prepare to be low health.
And people with low health are more careful, so maybe they will avoid gunks at all.

But all this thing have no sense, unfortunatly. Even if devs wanted to fix Dominion, I think it will be dead, same as tribute and skirmish/elimination now. Breach will take high activity and others 4v4 modes will take low activite. No happy end for Dominion.

Camemberto
08-15-2018, 10:04 AM
I don't really see how not being able to execute is supposed to work, I mean, how does the game decide what's a gank and what's not?
Imagine you fight someone for a good 3 minutes and then a teammate comes along and hits your opponent a couple times. You get the kill eventually, but you're not allowed to execute, because a teammate is nearby? This is bound to lead to inconsistencies.

On the respawn timer I do agree, though I think it should be decreased across the board, no matter the situation.

Revenge should be removed entirely, instead friendly fire should be punishing for the aggressor. If you hit a teammate with a light attack, he should take 100% FF and you should pay 200% stamina for that attack. If you hit a teammate with a heavy, he should take 50% FF and you should pay 300% of stamina for that attack. This way, the ganksquad cannot mindlessly spam attacks through their own teammates, but have to coordinate their attacks, which would make the gank generally slower and more defendable. Also if a ganksquad is careless, it would even be beneficial to the gankee, because he can use their FF and stamina loss to his advantage. It would also create a whole new defense mechanic, because if you know that enemies can hurt their teammates, you would try to position yourself in way, that an incoming attack could maybe hit their teammate, if you dodged it correctly etc... What do you think about that?

ChampionRuby50g
08-15-2018, 10:44 AM
Camberto, I like your suggestion off FF dealing stamina damage to the person who hit their ally, but I think the numbers are over the top. Sounds like one hit would put you OOS regardless and thatís a bit much. Iíve never supported an increase in FF damage dealt to friendlys. It could be abused by toxic players too easily, killing teammates would happen far more often, and mistakes do happen after all.

I assume the no execution would work similar to the honorable bonus people get, like honorable 2v1 etc. I suggested a little while ago that players who get killed by a gank get a renown boost of 10 points for their effort in fighting off a 2v1, 3v1 and 4v1. It would slow down the feat advantage deathballs get, and incentives the player to fight harder.

Camemberto
08-15-2018, 11:14 AM
Camberto, I like your suggestion off FF dealing stamina damage to the person who hit their ally, but I think the numbers are over the top. Sounds like one hit would put you OOS regardless and that’s a bit much. I’ve never supported an increase in FF damage dealt to friendlys. It could be abused by toxic players too easily, killing teammates would happen far more often, and mistakes do happen after all.

I assume the no execution would work similar to the honorable bonus people get, like honorable 2v1 etc. I suggested a little while ago that players who get killed by a gank get a renown boost of 10 points for their effort in fighting off a 2v1, 3v1 and 4v1. It would slow down the feat advantage deathballs get, and incentives the player to fight harder.

Well the numbers could obviously be adjusted, but I think this is the best way to address this issue. I feel like having a bigger stamina punishment on heavies is alright, because you can quite easily faint them, if you notice an ally would take it. And being OOS while in a gank squad isn't really that bad, as you can just wait it out without pressure. FF should definitely be in the game at least at 50%, since the lack thereof is IMO the biggest problem.

Chobbsy99
08-15-2018, 12:33 PM
I don't really see how not being able to execute is supposed to work, I mean, how does the game decide what's a gank and what's not?
Imagine you fight someone for a good 3 minutes and then a teammate comes along and hits your opponent a couple times. You get the kill eventually, but you're not allowed to execute, because a teammate is nearby? This is bound to lead to inconsistencies.

I get that. Iím a centurion main (hate me all you want) and most of his damage comes from combos and wall splats. Having team mates interrupt my attacks can make 1v2s actually more difficult than 1v1s on occasion (unless the opponent is oos then gg).

Having a team mate not only interrupt my attacks but also prevent an execution would be infuriating.

Thatís why I think 1v2s should allow executions still. Only allowing them on 1v1s would be an unrealistic expectation of the honour of the player base. Also the current revenge system means that fighting two opponents at once is not the end of the world.

I think they could probably manage it using the honourable kill system, but Iím not a developer. Hopefully they can work it out!

paulwall_816
08-16-2018, 04:33 AM
Some really good ideas here about the balancing of the game.The no execution when your getting jumped or the low re spawn time if you do get jumped.

FireGriff0n
08-16-2018, 03:23 PM
I'm also new to the forum and I've also observed for a very long time. I always had an idea for the game but never thought anyone would like it, but i figured I'd give it a shot. Revenge has always been a topic of discussion and it should be as 4v4 shouldn't just be revenge builds so they can block 4 hits and pop it for an extra 120 health and INSANE damage. I think a good direction in my opinion would be 2 different ideas.

1. Revenge should only be activated when the team is breaking. Maximum 1 maybe 2 times, for a last stand type of ordeal. That's the way I always thought it was intended to be.

2. At the start of a match, each player starts with "x" number of times they can pop revenge. After "x" amount of times revenge has been used. It can no longer be used for the rest of the match. This would reduce the amount of times it's popped in a normal match now and promote using it sparingly.

These are my thoughts and I understand if no one agrees with them but I'm hoping maybe the devs will listen one day when topics like this always appear and will always appear.

P.S. I am all for quicker respawn time as well. 12 to 15s seems like an eternity and if many team mates die this 12 to 15s timeframe can turn the tide of battle fairly quickly.

HazelrahFirefly
08-16-2018, 03:30 PM
Camberto, I like your suggestion off FF dealing stamina damage to the person who hit their ally, but I think the numbers are over the top. Sounds like one hit would put you OOS regardless and thatís a bit much. Iíve never supported an increase in FF damage dealt to friendlys. It could be abused by toxic players too easily, killing teammates would happen far more often, and mistakes do happen after all.

I assume the no execution would work similar to the honorable bonus people get, like honorable 2v1 etc. I suggested a little while ago that players who get killed by a gank get a renown boost of 10 points for their effort in fighting off a 2v1, 3v1 and 4v1. It would slow down the feat advantage deathballs get, and incentives the player to fight harder.


Well the numbers could obviously be adjusted, but I think this is the best way to address this issue. I feel like having a bigger stamina punishment on heavies is alright, because you can quite easily faint them, if you notice an ally would take it. And being OOS while in a gank squad isn't really that bad, as you can just wait it out without pressure. FF should definitely be in the game at least at 50%, since the lack thereof is IMO the biggest problem.

I think the ally attack should bounce off of the team member, like it hit a wall, while dealing full damage to them. That way you have to really space out your attacks or risk killing a teammate for nothing.

Omg dominion could be so much better if the devs just ****ing cared a little bit to try something. Revenge could be completely removed.

RexXZ347
08-16-2018, 03:35 PM
Any devs there? I think we almost all agree we like this idea.

Chobbsy99
08-16-2018, 06:22 PM
1. Revenge should only be activated when the team is breaking. Maximum 1 maybe 2 times, for a last stand type of ordeal. That's the way I always thought it was intended to be.

I can see this being pretty awesome. I love the idea of a heroic last stand. However, it could be frustrating if itís a close match; it would almost be an advantage to break slightly earlier than the other team.

It would have to be balanced very carefully.

Helnekromancer
08-16-2018, 07:16 PM
The game can tell when you are doing a 1v1 and give you the title Honorable that gives you a bit of renown to your score in 4v4. Also does it when you save a teammate with Savior and survive a gank with Survivor, and when you gank someone you get dishonorable and receivenegative renown.

I'm pretty sure the game knows when you are getting ganked or not.