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249th_Harrier
09-22-2005, 08:24 PM
Oleg, what PF/AEP is really missing is pigeon guided missile:

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app1/swod.html#_SWOD7

An interesting side note to Pelican is the pigeon-guided(!) missile. In early 1942, behavioral scientist B.F. Skinner studied the use of trained pigeons to guide weapons. The idea was to show the birds photos of the planned target on a screen, and train them to peck on it. In the actual missile, a lens system in the weapon's nose would project the target image to three birds' screens. Using an electrically conductive screen to translate off-center pecks to an error signal, the guidance logic could correct the flight path of the missile. The NDRC actually funded the effort on a small scale as "Project Pigeon". Skinner was able to demonstrate the basic principle successfully in simulations on the ground, and wanted to install a pigeon guidance system in Pelican glide bombs for actual flight tests. However, Navy officials eventually dismissed the whole idea as impractical, and therefore the pigeon-guided missile remained an obscure anecdote in the history of weapons development in World War 2.

249th_Harrier
09-22-2005, 08:24 PM
Oleg, what PF/AEP is really missing is pigeon guided missile:

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app1/swod.html#_SWOD7

An interesting side note to Pelican is the pigeon-guided(!) missile. In early 1942, behavioral scientist B.F. Skinner studied the use of trained pigeons to guide weapons. The idea was to show the birds photos of the planned target on a screen, and train them to peck on it. In the actual missile, a lens system in the weapon's nose would project the target image to three birds' screens. Using an electrically conductive screen to translate off-center pecks to an error signal, the guidance logic could correct the flight path of the missile. The NDRC actually funded the effort on a small scale as "Project Pigeon". Skinner was able to demonstrate the basic principle successfully in simulations on the ground, and wanted to install a pigeon guidance system in Pelican glide bombs for actual flight tests. However, Navy officials eventually dismissed the whole idea as impractical, and therefore the pigeon-guided missile remained an obscure anecdote in the history of weapons development in World War 2.

hobnail
09-22-2005, 10:42 PM
what? 1st of April already?

Willey
09-23-2005, 04:21 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

IIJG69_Kartofe
09-23-2005, 05:56 AM
Pigeons FM is definitively Uber...

Stall speed too low! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Kocur_
09-23-2005, 08:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hobnail:
what? 1st of April already? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No matter todays date - it happened!

SeaFireLIV
09-23-2005, 09:59 AM
You`re gonna have to get up earlier than that to catch us out, 249th_Harrier. XcrashX did that a long time ago.

WOLFMondo
09-23-2005, 10:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hobnail:
what? 1st of April already? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No its true. I can't remember which British museam it is but there one on display, as I recal next to a British nuclear land mine!

I saw a program on it, the scientist taught pigeons to get feed by pecking on pictures of ships. In reality this would guide the missile as the pigeon faced with a real ship out the window would target the missile by pecking on the lense where the ship appeared, fill its belly then blow itself up and the ship.

SeaFireLIV
09-23-2005, 01:35 PM
Oh, you mean the exhibit in the Hendleberry British Museum of WWII antiquties, I remember now. That exhibit`s next to the `How Colour returned to everything after WWII` display.

Zyzbot
09-23-2005, 02:18 PM
http://historywired.si.edu/object.cfm?ID=353

darkhorizon11
09-23-2005, 02:32 PM
That would work great until the someone throws popcorn out in the park and lil' miss daisy gets bathed in napalm! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

WWMaxGunz
09-24-2005, 02:34 AM
Even if not a hoax, something that "worked in simulations on the ground" is not a basis for
modelling a game feature on, even counting the 109Z and perhaps one other plane.

Do the bombs get pressurized compartments with air supply for the pigeons or do the bombers
never go above say 8,000 ft and never fly too long for the little air in their part of the
nose to run out? Ahhh, those compartments also must be heated, it is too cold up there for
pigeons. And windshield deicing for their touchscreen windows....... in WWII.

Sure. And some way to make sure they don't fall asleep on the trip. Perhaps TV and some
interesting pigeon movies, LOL!

What a bird brained idea to hatch, trying to wing that one on the forum!

ApolloFS
09-24-2005, 05:27 AM
I don't get it. SOmeone please explain this further...

Ok Iget the part of how the birds where trained to peck on the images of targets by placing food on them.

How did the guidance system work though? They were actually inside the bomb you say? Therefore they must have been only able to sit somewhere during the bombs flight...So the area where they would sit would of course be designed to be feasible for sitting or pecking or whatever you call it, due the bomb falling at a certain angle (or angle of attack actually-say 70 degrees). So the bomb would project an image of the target, inside it, or more specifically, inside the space where the pigeon was? Was it prerecorded? If yes, then how does the pigeon sit on it and thus help the bomb with where to glide.

If the bomb just displays what is in the bomb's flight path, therefore the target would be viewed at an angle, from far away and probably not be very visible, how would the pigeon "point" to where the bomb should go...


Oh I guess I'm on a avery wrong train of thought here....

ApolloFS
09-24-2005, 05:32 AM
Saw the link....I guess I should ask what pecking means first!

http://historywired.si.edu/object.cfm?ID=353

p1ngu666
09-24-2005, 08:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Even if not a hoax, something that "worked in simulations on the ground" is not a basis for
modelling a game feature on, even counting the 109Z and perhaps one other plane.

Do the bombs get pressurized compartments with air supply for the pigeons or do the bombers
never go above say 8,000 ft and never fly too long for the little air in their part of the
nose to run out? Ahhh, those compartments also must be heated, it is too cold up there for
pigeons. And windshield deicing for their touchscreen windows....... in WWII.

Sure. And some way to make sure they don't fall asleep on the trip. Perhaps TV and some
interesting pigeon movies, LOL!

What a bird brained idea to hatch, trying to wing that one on the forum! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

glide bomb/rocket was usealy low to mid alt max http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

LEBillfish
09-24-2005, 08:42 AM
Very clever.......No computers, no AI, so use real live brains triple redundant and to make an average....Brains for that matter that are very simplistic and easily inspired to get specific results....

It also notes that it had a 3.7/bird corrections per second....So 11 corrections per second were possible...

I'd call that a very clever idea that had potential. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

darkhorizon11
09-25-2005, 04:29 PM
The navy uses dolphins for search and rescue and mine detection I think?

hobnail
09-25-2005, 07:24 PM
Heh, the Russians prior to 1941 were trying to train dogs, equiped with explosives on their back, to associate the underside of tanks with food/reward. Only problem was that they associated Soviet tanks with food more than any other type...

Drawn from memory but featured in the Book of Heroic Failures: Official Handbook of the Not Terribly Good Club of Great Britain (ISBN (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Booksources&isbn=0708819087)). One of my favourite books of all time.

TX-EcoDragon
09-26-2005, 04:23 AM
and the modern version, in the news today:


Armed and dangerous - Flipper the firing dolphin let loose by Katrina

by Mark Townsend Houston
Sunday September 25, 2005
The Observer


It may be the oddest tale to emerge from the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. Armed dolphins, trained by the US military to shoot terrorists and pinpoint spies underwater, may be missing in the Gulf of Mexico.
Experts who have studied the US navy's cetacean training exercises claim the 36 mammals could be carrying 'toxic dart' guns. Divers and surfers risk attack, they claim, from a species considered to be among the planet's smartest. The US navy admits it has been training dolphins for military purposes, but has refused to confirm that any are missing.

Dolphins have been trained in attack-and-kill missions since the Cold War. The US Atlantic bottlenose dolphins have apparently been taught to shoot terrorists attacking military vessels. Their coastal compound was breached during the storm, sweeping them out to sea. But those who have studied the controversial use of dolphins in the US defence programme claim it is vital they are caught quickly.

Leo Sheridan, 72, a respected accident investigator who has worked for government and industry, said he had received intelligence from sources close to the US government's marine fisheries service confirming dolphins had escaped.

'My concern is that they have learnt to shoot at divers in wetsuits who have simulated terrorists in exercises. If divers or windsurfers are mistaken for a spy or suicide bomber and if equipped with special harnesses carrying toxic darts, they could fire,' he said. 'The darts are designed to put the target to sleep so they can be interrogated later, but what happens if the victim is not found for hours?'

Usually dolphins were controlled via signals transmitted through a neck harness. 'The question is, were these dolphins made secure before Katrina struck?' said Sheridan.

The mystery surfaced when a separate group of dolphins was washed from a commercial oceanarium on the Mississippi coast during Katrina. Eight were found with the navy's help, but the dolphins were not returned until US navy scientists had examined them.

Sheridan is convinced the scientists were keen to ensure the dolphins were not the navy's, understood to be kept in training ponds in a sound in Louisiana, close to Lake Pontchartrain, whose waters devastated New Orleans.

The navy launched the classified Cetacean Intelligence Mission in San Diego in 1989, where dolphins, fitted with harnesses and small electrodes planted under their skin, were taught to patrol and protect Trident submarines in harbour and stationary warships at sea.

Criticism from animal rights groups ensured the use of dolphins became more secretive. But the project gained impetus after the Yemen terror attack on the USS Cole in 2000. Dolphins have also been used to detect mines near an Iraqi port.

ashley2005
09-26-2005, 05:53 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/ashleykuja/KP.jpg

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif