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WFL_M4sT3R_
07-29-2018, 10:27 AM
I mean like seriously you are not gonna nerf Shaman? Simple question?

Halvtand
07-29-2018, 10:38 AM
I mean like seriously you are not gonna nerf Shaman? Simple question?
Please state exactly what you would like to see done toa the character so both the community and forum reps can respond properly.

Tyrjo
07-29-2018, 10:56 AM
Imo the bite is the only thing that needs to be toned down. It's too fast and it does to much damage. The fact that the bite replenish her stamina to full is also slightly BS imo.

Vakris_One
07-29-2018, 01:57 PM
I mean like seriously you are not gonna nerf Shaman? Simple question?
Why would they need to nerf her? She's not problematic at the level they balance the game for as is proven by the Season 4 and 5 win charts.

Personally I think the only thing she needs to be toned down on is the damage she does from bite and she shouldn't recover stamina from a bite.

SuguruMisato
07-29-2018, 02:22 PM
Why nerf shaman? She's in perfect spot now. Exaclty the same as trasherum warden, absolutely not op I-will-deplete-your-stamina-in-a-second centurion, no attack side indicator zerg... This game is perfectly balanced.

WFL_M4sT3R_
07-29-2018, 05:09 PM
I do understand that some of you play shaman and i understand that you like it. Shaman is very very best offensive char in the game, so many various feints, great defense abilities (block, dodge, jump, movement speed) feints, unpredictable moves, enormus damage. Srsly i believe and i am sure that charts show excatly the same, Shaman is OP like hell.

Vakris_One
07-29-2018, 10:19 PM
I do understand that some of you play shaman and i understand that you like it. Shaman is very very best offensive char in the game, so many various feints, great defense abilities (block, dodge, jump, movement speed) feints, unpredictable moves, enormus damage. Srsly i believe and i am sure that charts show excatly the same, Shaman is OP like hell.
I don't main Shaman and I still think she's largely fine. Instead of "believing" that the charts will back you up how about you actually check them out?

http://static2.ubi.com/comdevs/FH_duel_winloss_matrix_layers.png

https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-us/news-community/152-325754-16/state-of-balance-season-5-recap

Her winrate in 1v1 is 53% and in 4v4 it's 50%. Quite balanced in both cases.

/thread answered.

MarshalMoriarty
07-29-2018, 10:39 PM
Although I have no interest in Shaman specifically, I will say that showing win rates means absolutely nothing. A character would need to be so tremendously overpowered to the point where it was practically impossible to lose with them to carry poor players often and consistently enough to be statistically significant.

There are far worse offenders than Shaman anyway IMO. Berserker and Orochi (at least on console and with Kiai being so outrageous) are much more serious cases.

Vakris_One
07-29-2018, 10:50 PM
The win rates are based off of only the top 2.5% of players so.... yeah, definitely poor players.

Jesus, this forum....

http://www.alternativephysics.org/comedy/img/facepalm.jpg

MarshalMoriarty
07-30-2018, 01:39 AM
Because of course, going off the top 2.5% is so relevant to the experiences of the average player.

One day you'll post something without that attitude that makes you sound like a condescending prat. One day...

HazelrahFirefly
07-30-2018, 01:59 AM
Because of course, going off the top 2.5% is so relevant to the experiences of the average player.

One day you'll post something without that attitude that makes you sound like a condescending prat. One day...

The best part is that this graph shows that in the top 2.5% the Aramusha is a threat, and yet the mob here will then tell me the graph doesn't conclude that.

dinosaurlicker
07-30-2018, 02:01 AM
^

Literally just tells us that these percentages mean nothing because Aramusha is universally accepted as a dog**** hero who is poorly designed and unfun to play as anywhere above the bottom 25% of our playerbase.

MarshalMoriarty
07-30-2018, 02:18 AM
You can never account for every variable in every match. 2 players of equal skill well versed in every character and who excel in every mode can play and you would be no closer to knowing how balanced the characters are by the end.

Player A may not be quite as good with the character he has chosen as he is with others, he may be distracted by fatigue, a fight with hiis wife, loud construction work outside, connection issues, he may be starting to come down with something etc etc etc.

These win rates cannot and cannot be expected to account for all the factors that went into wins and losses. They can only show raw results and trust that the totality of the data wil broadly represent how well the characters perform. It is suggestive, but not conclusive. And as I say, focusing on the top players only gives wildly skewed results. The potential of a character is of little consequence to the community at large if you canmot access it with the higher end of the average rate of skill (i.e a level of skill that a dedicated player could reasonably aspire to reach through practice and experience).

Haplo_Bane
07-30-2018, 02:23 AM
Useful chart. Noice.

NHLGoldenKnight
07-30-2018, 02:29 AM
The win rates are based off of only the top 2.5% of players so.... yeah, definitely poor players.

Jesus, this forum....

http://www.alternativephysics.org/comedy/img/facepalm.jpg

Instead of being cocky, why not think about what people are actually saying?

First, even if you want somehow to accept that 2.5% player population should dictate how game works, you are still little bit wrong in your statement that Shaman is not op. Part of the reason is that at 53% win rate, Shaman is still in top 5 or 6 heroes. She has advantage vs 11 heroes and disadvantage vs 6 heroes if I remember numbers correctly. So that is actually not completely balanced. The other part has to do with overall tools that Shaman has and how she affects the game in 4v4 modes. Keep in mind that she is an assasin yet she has almost everything going on for her, without serious flaws. Strong damage and faint game, canceling everything into something else, solid speed and health as well. Bleed, self healing, unblockables and ridiculously powerful bite which is often used in 4v4. And guess what? Although being assassin, that is still not enough. So developers felt the need to make Shaman great at throwing, jumping and sprinting? And on top of that, aside Lawbringer, they gave her completely op feats which enables every team with at least 2 Shamans to completely block certain zone with deadly traps?

Secondly, you can't take data based on top 2.5% players or bottom 2.5% players to make valid argument for anything. Statistically, that percentage is not even close to be accepted into process of making any type of decisions, not just in balancing video games, but in business, sports, entertainment, or any industry. If you want to fix something based on statistical data, you need as much as you can get in order for the result to be as good as it can be. Rules in sports don't change because of top 2.5%, test in schools don't, and no business will make decision based on top only 2.5% data, top or bottom, doesn't matter. So, I am pretty sure Ubisoft has the data ( or they can manufacture one) for the higher population percentage. Top 50% should be considered when making balance changes.

SangLong524
07-30-2018, 02:54 AM
Shaman is not OP, in my nsh opnion.
Frankly, it's good that the game progression is based on something. While basing it on the top is hardly practical and not fair to everyone, it's something I'd rather look forward to and work for it. Tweaking the game based on some nobody bigmouth claim this and that is not a way to go. What happen if they do that and mess up? Will these nobodies step up and claim responsibilities? No. Because it's nobody. its nobodies responsibilities but the devs. I totally understand if they rather do it their way but keep an ear out for feedback.

WFL_M4sT3R_
07-30-2018, 06:53 AM
I don't main Shaman and I still think she's largely fine. Instead of "believing" that the charts will back you up how about you actually check them out?

http://static2.ubi.com/comdevs/FH_duel_winloss_matrix_layers.png

https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-us/news-community/152-325754-16/state-of-balance-season-5-recap

Her winrate in 1v1 is 53% and in 4v4 it's 50%. Quite balanced in both cases.

/thread answered.

I am kinda lazy, yes you can judge me, anyway i was talking about dominion, still ty for your update.

JediGamerFurius
07-30-2018, 07:00 AM
Why would they need to nerf her? She's not problematic at the level they balance the game for as is proven by the Season 4 and 5 win charts.

Personally I think the only thing she needs to be toned down on is the damage she does from bite and she shouldn't recover stamina from a bite.

This character is not that big deal, only this bite should be slower and not garanteed after a GB with a push, for the damage and stamina recover can remain the same in my opinion.

Camemberto
07-30-2018, 10:54 AM
Shaman is not OP, in my nsh opnion.
Frankly, it's good that the game progression is based on something. While basing it on the top is hardly practical and not fair to everyone, it's something I'd rather look forward to and work for it. Tweaking the game based on some nobody bigmouth claim this and that is not a way to go. What happen if they do that and mess up? Will these nobodies step up and claim responsibilities? No. Because it's nobody. its nobodies responsibilities but the devs. I totally understand if they rather do it their way but keep an ear out for feedback.

Wait...Did you just call the other 97.5% of the entire player base "nobodies". I really hope I misunderstood, because that is some condescending sh!t right there.

Balancing a game based on only the top 2.5% percent of players is SUCH a stupid thing to do and not releasing ANY data on the other 97.5% is just shady as hell. They HAVE the data, why disclose it? On the other hand, if you cannot reach balance within the games mechanics, maybe it's time to change the mechanics themselves. This game is the equivalent of a shooter where every weapon is a one hit kill. impossible to properly balance across the skill-board.

Tyrfing_.
07-30-2018, 11:46 AM
You have to use a baseline for the analysis, as otherwise the variables get too much.
For the remaining 97.5%, skill-differences outweigh the character attributes in a duel.

The devs already admitted in one of the dens, that some heros are quite weak in high-level duels, while on the other hand lower level player (the absolute majority) have a very hard time to deal with them. Named e.g.: Ama, Cent, Shugo. To balance that however would mean an major rework, which is also a matter of time.

For Shamans it is especially down to the oponent. Anbody with dodge-attacks and HA has less problems than heros without. Kenseis e.g. eat her for breakfast.

Don't think she is generally OP.

Vakris_One
07-30-2018, 01:20 PM
You can never account for every variable in every match. 2 players of equal skill well versed in every character and who excel in every mode can play and you would be no closer to knowing how balanced the characters are by the end.

Player A may not be quite as good with the character he has chosen as he is with others, he may be distracted by fatigue, a fight with hiis wife, loud construction work outside, connection issues, he may be starting to come down with something etc etc etc.

These win rates cannot and cannot be expected to account for all the factors that went into wins and losses. They can only show raw results and trust that the totality of the data wil broadly represent how well the characters perform. It is suggestive, but not conclusive. And as I say, focusing on the top players only gives wildly skewed results. The potential of a character is of little consequence to the community at large if you canmot access it with the higher end of the average rate of skill (i.e a level of skill that a dedicated player could reasonably aspire to reach through practice and experience).
Who would you focus on for getting the best shot at a credible data source? The bottom 2.5% of players? The average player? No. You focus on the top percent of players because that gives you the best source of data as to how these heroes perform when they are being utilised to the fullest potential of their kit. It lets the devs know what kinds of kit options are topping the win charts. Also by balancing the heroes at the top level you give the players of your game the most room to improve and strive for a higher skill plateau.

If you balance the heroes at the average level you shorten the skill ceiling and pretty much cut out the entire notion of high level play. When all it takes to reach the pinnacle of the skill ceiling is to be average/slightly above average at the game that instantly removes the skill depth necessary for a good competitive PvP game let alone one that strives to be an E-sport.

And for those people saying "Oh you can't trust the official win chart because Aramusha is crap." - Yeah, the devs aren't relying solely on the win chart to do their balancing guys. The win charts and pick rates are used as a general indicator. Mostly helpful in seeing the extreme cases like Conq at 60% or previously when Kensei and Highlander were dead bottom before their updates. For more focused feedback they rely on talking with the handful of top players whom they use as consultants basically as well as keeping informed about the community's feedback and seeing what correlates with their top player's feedback and what is just flotsam, i.e. unskilled players crying about "OP" and "cancer".

Charmzzz
07-30-2018, 02:45 PM
No PVP game in the entire gaming history (to my knowledge) balanced according to mediocre or bottom skill players.

Recent examples: Overwatch, League of Legends, hell even WoW...

They all take statistics from the top performers and balance the game. Commonly known as shifting Meta. You nerf something, you buff something, Players find new ways to "abuse" something, new Meta is created, you nerf it, you buff something else, the Meta shifts again, and so on.

SpaceJim12
07-30-2018, 03:33 PM
No PVP game in the entire gaming history (to my knowledge) balanced according to mediocre or bottom skill players.

Recent examples: Overwatch, League of Legends, hell even WoW...

They all take statistics from the top performers and balance the game. Commonly known as shifting Meta. You nerf something, you buff something, Players find new ways to "abuse" something, new Meta is created, you nerf it, you buff something else, the Meta shifts again, and so on.

None of this games have so poor community after all.=)
I'm ok with most things in For Honor, but chance to play against so called "top players" are too high. I play time to time, I have enough of personal things to do, I got family. And I like medieval fights. So I came to For Honor, yes, I know this game have a high entry threshold, I'm ok with that, I have my bad days and good days. But when you meet a people, who spend all their time in For Honor, train every day, you just hate this game. I personaly could remember an Orochi, who have just 100 rep overall, but definitely more playtime, that I have. We play 4v4, but none of us could land a single hit on him. We killed him only once, 4v1. He knew everything, react on everything. He could parry one opponent and instantly deflect another one. It's rediculous. I don't want to play with such people. And when I play Overwatch or Heroes of the Storm, I do not play with them. Game not designed for it and player base are way bigger. The most stupid thing in For Honor, that even newcomers could play with this Orochi. And after this one side play, 80% of newbies will leave the game.
LoL, Overwatch, WoW. All this games just pair newbies to newbies and everyone happy, that's why Overwatch playerbase increases every year.

RexXZ347
07-30-2018, 03:35 PM
Balance is a joke in this game. Literally others have more edge than other characters. And reworks are constantly in process.

HazelrahFirefly
07-30-2018, 05:34 PM
None of this games have so poor community after all.=)
I'm ok with most things in For Honor, but chance to play against so called "top players" are too high. I play time to time, I have enough of personal things to do, I got family. And I like medieval fights. So I came to For Honor, yes, I know this game have a high entry threshold, I'm ok with that, I have my bad days and good days. But when you meet a people, who spend all their time in For Honor, train every day, you just hate this game. I personaly could remember an Orochi, who have just 100 rep overall, but definitely more playtime, that I have. We play 4v4, but none of us could land a single hit on him. We killed him only once, 4v1. He knew everything, react on everything. He could parry one opponent and instantly deflect another one. It's rediculous. I don't want to play with such people. And when I play Overwatch or Heroes of the Storm, I do not play with them. Game not designed for it and player base are way bigger. The most stupid thing in For Honor, that even newcomers could play with this Orochi. And after this one side play, 80% of newbies will leave the game.
LoL, Overwatch, WoW. All this games just pair newbies to newbies and everyone happy, that's why Overwatch playerbase increases every year.

The die hard around here will tell you that the shoddy matchmaking won't make people quit lol.

SpaceJim12
07-30-2018, 05:53 PM
The die hard around here will tell you that the shoddy matchmaking won't make people quit lol.

But I got friends, who quit cause of it.=)
But I don't think it's matchmaking problem. Devs change it for time to time, but still you could meet someone who just play triple times more than you, and no matter how hard you try, you just can't win this fight. And again, this game have one thing that allow you to dominate in any situations. This game rely on personal fights and all moves countered. So, in the end someone, who play 24/7 and knows every mix-up and every moves in the game could, obviously, counter anything and win 99% of fights. I don't know, this people just too good, or it's some kind of cheats, but I really confused when meet this guys, who do NO mistake. They always parry right in a moment, they always can CGB, no matter conditions, they always see LB or Raider behind his back and ready to dodge. They always know when to dodge HL kick/caber toss. Play against them make you feel helpless at all, so game mechanic allow to make you helpless in fights. It's not right, if you ask me.

JediGamerFurius
07-30-2018, 06:20 PM
But I got friends, who quit cause of it.=)

The problem of this game is simple. They don't do the job and don't want you to do it for them. For exemple, I got a friend who got for honor for free, and he wants to play with me and I was very happy about it. So, he ask me to go and get some metal and level for he's hero, we went to PvAI, just us and nobody else. He with no pvp matchs played before and me with my pvp matchs on the record. So my skill was placed as higher then him, but I was thinking "Oh, it's ok we will get th lvl 1 bot since my friend is low skill", guess what? We got lvl 2 bots and he got raped. This is how matchmaking "balance" is screwed, they don't even know how to do it on PvAI, so don't expect to be done on PVP. Oh yeah, my friend quit the game too.

NHLGoldenKnight
07-30-2018, 08:10 PM
Wait...Did you just call the other 97.5% of the entire player base "nobodies". I really hope I misunderstood, because that is some condescending sh!t right there.

Balancing a game based on only the top 2.5% percent of players is SUCH a stupid thing to do and not releasing ANY data on the other 97.5% is just shady as hell. They HAVE the data, why disclose it? On the other hand, if you cannot reach balance within the games mechanics, maybe it's time to change the mechanics themselves. This game is the equivalent of a shooter where every weapon is a one hit kill. impossible to properly balance across the skill-board.

Yeah, that is their "elitist " way of looking at community. Top 2.5% are important and they can justify any change in the game, but 97.5% of us are what? Chumps? It makes me f. sick.

I am not sure where did they come up with 2.5%, why not top 5%? Maybe 3.5%? 7.5%?

Also, this game doesn't have large population, let's be real for a second. So when you balance game based on 2.5%, how many players are we talking about? Couple of hundreds?

Anyway, pretty much ignoring 97.5% of player base is completely stupid and shows just what they think of us in general. I am wondering, if we all stop playing game and only top 2.5 % stays, could this game survive? It is like car manufacturer who makes new car so tricky to drive that only top 2.5% of drivers can actually drive the car with success. Instant failure.

SangLong524
07-30-2018, 11:20 PM
Wait...Did you just call the other 97.5% of the entire player base "nobodies". I really hope I misunderstood, because that is some condescending sh!t right there.

Balancing a game based on only the top 2.5% percent of players is SUCH a stupid thing to do and not releasing ANY data on the other 97.5% is just shady as hell. They HAVE the data, why disclose it? On the other hand, if you cannot reach balance within the games mechanics, maybe it's time to change the mechanics themselves. This game is the equivalent of a shooter where every weapon is a one hit kill. impossible to properly balance across the skill-board.

97.5% consists of many small pieces. All have the same mind, same voice?! Yes, big mouth nobodies. I mean it. Yes, I'm being a condescending sh*t and I'm not afraid. So what?

Charmzzz
07-31-2018, 08:57 AM
People in here forget that this is a fighting game. Go ahead, join the Tekken, MK, Street Fighter or Injustice. There you would get ra*ed even harder.

There is no way the Dev's would balance this game around the low-skill-population. Why would they do that? Nobody would play a fighting game if the skill ceiling is so low that even a Newbie can beat a Master...

SpaceJim12
07-31-2018, 09:39 AM
People in here forget that this is a fighting game. Go ahead, join the Tekken, MK, Street Fighter or Injustice. There you would get ra*ed even harder.

There is no way the Dev's would balance this game around the low-skill-population. Why would they do that? Nobody would play a fighting game if the skill ceiling is so low that even a Newbie can beat a Master...

Well, ok...first of all, I played Injustice 2 couple months ago. And I never saw there a mode, where 8 players running around map, and four could kick someone alone. And I really doubt, that next game in Tekken or MK series will have Seige mode based on team play. So, stop saying For Honor is a fighting game. It could be, if there were only duels (brawls, maybe), but it's not. And new mode is not a variation of duels. It's teambased 4v4 gamemode. Remove 4v4 modes now, and half (or even more) community will just leave For Honor. From advertising and all, duels must be just add-on to main game. The unique battle system LET you to made this gamemode, but it's not a main mode of this game.=)
So, even devs keep on developing For Honor as teambased action game with unique battle system. Not a fighting game.

Second, noone wait devs balance game around low-skill-population, but if problem looks massive, it's problem that should be solved. You can't just say "Deathball is not an issue on top level of play", than showed some stupid videos of most polite gunks in For Honor history and think it's solved all problems.
Newbie can't beat even average player. Most of them just trown attacks with no system on first two reps points. This game already hard enough, unnecessary to do it even harder.

Charmzzz
07-31-2018, 09:50 AM
Well, ok...first of all, I played Injustice 2 couple months ago. And I never saw there a mode, where 8 players running around map, and four could kick someone alone. And I really doubt, that next game in Tekken or MK series will have Seige mode based on team play. So, stop saying For Honor is a fighting game. It could be, if there were only duels (brawls, maybe), but it's not. And new mode is not a variation of duels. It's teambased 4v4 gamemode. Remove 4v4 modes now, and half (or even more) community will just leave For Honor. From advertising and all, duels must be just add-on to main game. The unique battle system LET you to made this gamemode, but it's not a main mode of this game.=)
So, even devs keep on developing For Honor as teambased action game with unique battle system. Not a fighting game.

Second, noone wait devs balance game around low-skill-population, but if problem looks massive, it's problem that should be solved. You can't just say "Deathball is not an issue on top level of play", than showed some stupid videos of most polite gunks in For Honor history and think it's solved all problems.
Newbie can't beat even average player. Most of them just trown attacks with no system on first two reps points. This game already hard enough, unnecessary to do it even harder.

Uhm, sometimes I am really curious about your posts. Like, I don't understand how you get to your "points".

This Thread is about Balance, the Shaman specifically. This Thread is NOT about 4v4 Modes in general or Ganks. I never mentioned Ganks anywhere.
This game is still a fighting game, even though a Multiplayer one. You fight each other, you have different attack angles, combos, blocks and counter-moves.

Deathball is not an unsolveable issue when your team does the right things. If they don't, well, that's on your team then. As much as I hate the current Meta, it is still a skill and decisions thing who will win.

SpaceJim12
07-31-2018, 10:46 AM
Uhm, sometimes I am really curious about your posts. Like, I don't understand how you get to your "points".

This Thread is about Balance, the Shaman specifically. This Thread is NOT about 4v4 Modes in general or Ganks. I never mentioned Ganks anywhere.
This game is still a fighting game, even though a Multiplayer one. You fight each other, you have different attack angles, combos, blocks and counter-moves.

Deathball is not an unsolveable issue when your team does the right things. If they don't, well, that's on your team then. As much as I hate the current Meta, it is still a skill and decisions thing who will win.

Deathball was an example of how stupid to balance something around couple % of players. That's all.
Deathball is a problem, cause most players here play solo or with one friend, so in 80% of times your team will do wrong things, and noone want to cooperate. But devs just avoid this issue, using 2.5% of players as example.

Well, with same argument I can called For Honor a MOBA, cause you have three lines in Dominion and one of it have creeps. And I could called For Honor a shooter, cause you have capture the flag.
For Honor is not a classic fighting game until there are 4v4 modes and some unique mechanics in fights itself.

Charmzzz
07-31-2018, 12:11 PM
Deathball was an example of how stupid to balance something around couple % of players. That's all.
Deathball is a problem, cause most players here play solo or with one friend, so in 80% of times your team will do wrong things, and noone want to cooperate. But devs just avoid this issue, using 2.5% of players as example.

Well, with same argument I can called For Honor a MOBA, cause you have three lines in Dominion and one of it have creeps. And I could called For Honor a shooter, cause you have capture the flag.
For Honor is not a classic fighting game until there are 4v4 modes and some unique mechanics in fights itself.

Where and how did Devs use the top 2.5% as an example for Deathball not being an issue? They only show us the statistics and add some thoughts and possible future balance changes.

It is not a MOBA because there is no base to be destroyed, the mechanics are different, there are no fighting-game-like combos.
It is not a Shooter because you don't have a crosshair nor are you shooting alot.

It is not a classic fighting game, but it is the closest genre I can think of. And btw there are fighting games which let you at least "Brawl" 2v2 on one Screen. Sooo....

Playing_Mantis
07-31-2018, 12:32 PM
shaman is fine. might need a buff even. her bite is next to impossible to pull off and her other moves are just predictable. only thing she has going for her is the unblock able attack but even that seems to not trick people anymore. i stopped playing her because i feel like she's a one trick pony. players that know how she works tend to win against her. you probably are the same person that thinks cent needs nerf too id imagine. honestly, she's in a fine spot, no buff or nerf needed.

SpaceJim12
07-31-2018, 12:47 PM
Where and how did Devs use the top 2.5% as an example for Deathball not being an issue? They only show us the statistics and add some thoughts and possible future balance changes.

It is not a MOBA because there is no base to be destroyed, the mechanics are different, there are no fighting-game-like combos.
It is not a Shooter because you don't have a crosshair nor are you shooting alot.

It is not a classic fighting game, but it is the closest genre I can think of. And btw there are fighting games which let you at least "Brawl" 2v2 on one Screen. Sooo....

On the Den right after Deathball thread here, on forum. They collect all data, and than showed two teams play Dominion and don't even try to gunk, that devs concluded, that on the top levels of play Deathball is not a problem. And no news about Dominion fixes after that.

Well, it's not a fighting game, cause you could spit on target lock and use feats in 4v4 modes. You could fight 4v1 and even 1v4 in good conditions. So For Honor is obviously NOT a fighting game. I only use your arguments system.=)

Charmzzz
07-31-2018, 12:59 PM
On the Den right after Deathball thread here, on forum. They collect all data, and than showed two teams play Dominion and don't even try to gunk, that devs concluded, that on the top levels of play Deathball is not a problem. And no news about Dominion fixes after that.

Well, it's not a fighting game, cause you could spit on target lock and use feats in 4v4 modes. You could fight 4v1 and even 1v4 in good conditions. So For Honor is obviously NOT a fighting game. I only use your arguments system.=)

Uhm, the mechanics are very close to a fighting game.
- 3 attack directions
- block / dodge
- combos

You are not ising my "arguments system"... You say that because the game is 4v4 and it has a target lock it cannot be a fighting game. My arguments are based on the core mechanics of your examples (MOBA, Shooter). Now try to give arguments based on core mechanics please. Targeting and Player Number is not relevant, my crosshair argument is incorrectly chosen so I give you that one. Still, in For Honor you rarely shoot people which would be the core mechanic of a Shooter...

Can we now get back to the balance discussion about Shaman here?

SpaceJim12
07-31-2018, 03:03 PM
Uhm, the mechanics are very close to a fighting game.
- 3 attack directions
- block / dodge
- combos

MMORPG Tera Online have 66% of this "core mechanics". It is a fighting game? No.
I again should said, that you could not lock on target in For Honor, which made "3 direction" are not such argument.
As I said above, until duels will become dominant mode in the game, and 90% of playerbase will play duels only, For Honor is NOT a fighting game.

Now, sure you can get back to the balance discussion about Shaman.

HazelrahFirefly
07-31-2018, 03:18 PM
On the Den right after Deathball thread here, on forum. They collect all data, and than showed two teams play Dominion and don't even try to gunk, that devs concluded, that on the top levels of play Deathball is not a problem. And no news about Dominion fixes after that.

You're not wrong that this did happen. They brought out some of the 2.5% to show the audience that deathball is not a problem, that we just need to git gud.

It wasn't a balancing issue though, just a god awful demonstration that proved nothing except they dont give a **** about fixing dominion.

Charmzzz
07-31-2018, 03:29 PM
Tera is an Action-Combat-MMO.

Does Tera have Attack directions? No.
Is Tera PVP? Not really, 99% PVE.

Is For Honor combat-wise more like Tekken or an Action-MMO / Shooter / MOBA?

Vakris_One
07-31-2018, 03:50 PM
The thing they did in that Warriors Den was a very poor example of how the top players experience Dominion differently than the average player. It was literally put together on the spot and they did a poor job of showing us what high level Dominion play looks like. It was a terrible way to address the general community's feedback on the gank meta in Dom.

For a genuine example of how the top players play Dominion check out Alernakin's tournament stream video:

https://youtu.be/xnv8ipqHGMg

SpaceJim12
07-31-2018, 03:57 PM
Tera is an Action-Combat-MMO.

Does Tera have Attack directions? No.
Is Tera PVP? Not really, 99% PVE.

Is For Honor combat-wise more like Tekken or an Action-MMO / Shooter / MOBA?

Now PvP is a problem, yes? Well, MMORPG Blade and Soul is a fighting game?=)

In duels it's have some common elements with Tekken etc. In any 4v4 mode For honor far away from Tekken etc.

SaschoS
07-31-2018, 04:54 PM
Shaman was never properly tested and should be deleted. Idk why you guys are looking at winrates cause most OP chars are played by noobs and that is why some op champs have lower winrate

SuguruMisato
07-31-2018, 06:31 PM
Shaman was never properly tested and should be deleted. Idk why you guys are looking at winrates cause most OP chars are played by noobs and that is why some op champs have lower winrate

Exactly. I don't understand why Centurion is still in the game.

Alustar.
07-31-2018, 06:39 PM
Shaman was never properly tested and should be deleted. Idk why you guys are looking at winrates cause most OP chars are played by noobs and that is why some op champs have lower winrate
If a hero are legitimately OP then it wouldn't matter what skill level you are, you'd win the majority of your matches. The fact that her win rate at top tier play is average shows us that even with all her "OP" moves she can be countered pretty fairly. Most of the players in my MMR can counter her pretty easily.

Is simple to adapt to: learn how to parry her unlockable, learn how to read her GB feints, and learn when to dodge to the side and you can shut her down.

AzureSky.
07-31-2018, 08:01 PM
Now PvP is a problem, yes? Well, MMORPG Blade and Soul is a fighting game?=)

In duels it's have some common elements with Tekken etc. In any 4v4 mode For honor far away from Tekken etc.

For Honor is a fighting game and the characters are balanced around 1vs1 modes, 4vs4 is just a "party" mode for fun, not for serious gameplay, that's why it's such a mess right now.

also it's like a very simplified version of tekken, you just need to move the screen camera angle a little and you get tekken (in tekken you can move in all directions already)

So yeah come to say that is not a fighting game when they stop balancing everything around it.

Charmzzz
08-01-2018, 07:42 AM
For Honor is a fighting game and the characters are balanced around 1vs1 modes, 4vs4 is just a "party" mode for fun, not for serious gameplay, that's why it's such a mess right now.

also it's like a very simplified version of tekken, you just need to move the screen camera angle a little and you get tekken (in tekken you can move in all directions already)

So yeah come to say that is not a fighting game when they stop balancing everything around it.

I agree mostly, just the part about balance around 1v1 modes - nope. They focus on 4v4 Balance. Proof? Here: https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-gb/news-community/detail.aspx?c=tcm:154-325754-16&ct=tcm:154-76770-32

Plenty of comments from the Devs concerning 4v4 Modes. Best example:
One of the biggest difference from the beginning of Season 5 is the Nobushi’s importance in 4v4 has decreased and Kensei became a good pick. With Nobushi’s slight nerf in S5 and the Peacekeeper changes in S6,1 we think Shaman will be in a sweet spot in 4v4. We wanted to diminish the supremacy of what we call “The Bleed Team”: Peacekeeper / Shaman / Nobushi by nerfing some of the Heroes of the team but most importantly buffing other Heroes to make them a valid pick.

SpaceJim12
08-01-2018, 09:09 AM
For Honor is a fighting game and the characters are balanced around 1vs1 modes, 4vs4 is just a "party" mode for fun, not for serious gameplay, that's why it's such a mess right now.

Just "for fun" mode, that is most popular, than a duels. Ooooki-doki.


I agree mostly, just the part about balance around 1v1 modes - nope. They focus on 4v4 Balance. Proof? Here: https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en...m:154-76770-32

Well, if devs even balance game around 4v4 modes, that have almost nothing in common with classic fighting games, you still claim, that For honor is a fighting game?=)
Where the logic here?

Charmzzz
08-01-2018, 09:36 AM
Well, if devs even balance game around 4v4 modes, that have almost nothing in common with classic fighting games, you still claim, that For honor is a fighting game?=)
Where the logic here?

Yes. FH is a Fighting Game. Mechanics, you know. Well, I guess you really dont understand why Fight-Mechanics count and not that it is 4v4 or there are Minions... I just give up explaining.

NHLGoldenKnight
08-01-2018, 10:02 AM
If a hero are legitimately OP then it wouldn't matter what skill level you are, you'd win the majority of your matches. The fact that her win rate at top tier play is average shows us that even with all her "OP" moves she can be countered pretty fairly. Most of the players in my MMR can counter her pretty easily.

Is simple to adapt to: learn how to parry her unlockable, learn how to read her GB feints, and learn when to dodge to the side and you can shut her down.

Hmm. So according to you, if same player could plays against himself (all things being equal), he would have same chance of wining using Shaman compared to using Warden, Warlord, Lawbringer, Raider, Valkyrie, Shugoki ?

Also, how many Shamans were used by top tier players on which you base your opinion? Since it is a only top 2.5%, what is that in actual numbers? And what percentage of that number are players using Shaman and how many of them are on PS4?

Statistics is tricky and it can easily be manipulated to get what you need. Hypothetically speaking, we maybe base our opinion of the hero on just 20 players who were using that hero. Enough to prove something? You tell me.

NHLGoldenKnight
08-01-2018, 10:17 AM
I agree mostly, just the part about balance around 1v1 modes - nope. They focus on 4v4 Balance. Proof? Here: https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-gb/news-community/detail.aspx?c=tcm:154-325754-16&ct=tcm:154-76770-32

Plenty of comments from the Devs concerning 4v4 Modes. Best example:

It is funny how developers have decided to nerf PK and Nobushi in order to nerf "The Bleed Team" but it didn't cross their mind to nerf Shamans bite, which is stupid anyway and even more with damage it causes. In 4v4, Shamans are flying around like f***** wolverines and jumping on you from 10 yards away and it costs you a game. You can't even see them if you are already fighting someone else. It should be classified as a ranged attack.

Shaman can be nerfed in a way that doesn't affect 1v1 but makes things more balanced in 4v4.

1. Making adjustments to her jumping abilities, sprint speed and throwing distance.
2. Lowering bite damage, "pros" claim that it doesn't have much use in 1v1 anyway.
3. Rearrange feats. Too many deadly traps. Have developer ever played vs 2 or more Shamans who completely cover one zone with multiple traps? Even if no one is there, most likely you are going to die.

These changes wouldn't really nerf her on 1v1 but would decrease her influence in 4v4 matches which is currently very strong.

Charmzzz
08-01-2018, 10:42 AM
It is funny how developers have decided to nerf PK and Nobushi in order to nerf "The Bleed Team" but it didn't cross their mind to nerf Shamans bite, which is stupid anyway and even more with damage it causes. In 4v4, Shamans are flying around like f***** wolverines and jumping on you from 10 yards away and it costs you a game. You can't even see them if you are already fighting someone else. It should be classified as a ranged attack.


Have you seen the Map? It shows incoming ganks pretty early.

Camemberto
08-01-2018, 11:20 AM
Ok... this is just too much BS, I HAVE to respond.

Balancing for only the top 2.5% is f*cking stupid.
Why the HELL would a broader balance approach lower the skill ceiling? Would you care to elaborate on that??
My guess is: "because low level players would play against high level players and balancing them out would closer the skill gap." which I'll come to later when talking about statistics
BUT: That is ONLY the case, because For Honor's matchmaking is utter horse-waste. If (for any skill level) players would be met with equally good players, then none of that would be the case. No f*cking ceiling would be lowered. And balance could be acchieved between two low level players as well as between two high level players.

There are very clear examples in the game for heroes who's movesets are EASY AS HELL (even for noobs) to kill noobs with, but are useless against high level players (even if used by high level players). Some heroes would probably have a win-rate 30% higher if mid to low level play was also looked at. But in high level play, they suck, so they get's buffs to balance them out up top which further breaks mid to low level play.

Also I read that one comment, where according to him, using mid and low level data would be useless, because it would be more dependent on the player's skill rather than the picked hero. Dude, have you ever heard about statistics?

The outcome of any matchup is generally determined by:
The picked hero
Player skill
luck and bad luck

Now imagine you looked at only the top 2.5%
For an infinite amount of completely random matchups the luck component would balance it self out after enough samples, the skill component would stay constant and so the heroes OPness is the only thing that determines the outcome. That would be ok for balancing, if it didn't blatantly ignore 97.5% of the playerbase.

Now imagine you looked at 100% of the playerbase.
For an infinite amount of completely random matchups the luck component would balance it self out and so would player skill, because if you have enough samples, for each matchup mostly determined by skill, there will be an equal and opposite matchup mostly determined by skill, so the heroes OPness is STILL the only thing that determines the outcome. That would be WAY BETTER for balancing, because it DOES NOT blatantly ignore 97.5% of the playerbase.

Ubisoft get your head out of your rear!

SpaceJim12
08-01-2018, 11:22 AM
Yes. FH is a Fighting Game. Mechanics, you know. Well, I guess you really dont understand why Fight-Mechanics count and not that it is 4v4 or there are Minions... I just give up explaining.

Ok, seriously, I understand, what you trying to say. Sure, FH have more in common with fighting games, and duels after all could be good example of new wave combat games in medieval style.
But core game mechanic is a reason why team modes can't develop. Now we have siege with only 4 players. And I used to think it's a technical problem, but after stable work of dedicated servers in almost every region, the low number of players seems a problem of balance/gameplay issue. Game still designed for really personal, closed fights. Even in gunk you use target switching. And if devs will make 8v8 mode, it will be chaos itself. But a lot of people want massive battles, complex, objective count gamemode. That's why Dominion is still so popular, even with all obvious problems. And that's why Breach will be popular. And always one 4v4 mode will be more popular, than 1v1 modes. Overwatch have duels and 3v3 mode, that in general are really nice and fun. But still people want more. People like Royal Battles with hundreads of players on huge map.
That is my point. For Honor have a great potential, but it's far away from classic fighting games and duels itself.
Sorry for little trolling above.=)

SpaceJim12
08-01-2018, 11:24 AM
In 4v4, Shamans are flying around like f***** wolverines and jumping on you from 10 yards away and it costs you a game.

Now, Shaman just jump to you with a pretty slow start up animation. If you have problems with her jumps, so you have problems with Conq shield bash, HL kick, Shinobi kick, Glad bash etc.=)
If you could dodge all this stuff, you will easily dodge Shaman jumps.

Charmzzz
08-01-2018, 12:05 PM
Ok... this is just too much BS, I HAVE to respond.

Balancing for only the top 2.5% is f*cking stupid.
Why the HELL would a broader balance approach lower the skill ceiling? Would you care to elaborate on that??
My guess is: "because low level players would play against high level players and balancing them out would closer the skill gap." which I'll come to later when talking about statistics
BUT: That is ONLY the case, because For Honor's matchmaking is utter horse-waste. If (for any skill level) players would be met with equally good players, then none of that would be the case. No f*cking ceiling would be lowered. And balance could be acchieved between two low level players as well as between two high level players.

There are very clear examples in the game for heroes who's movesets are EASY AS HELL (even for noobs) to kill noobs with, but are useless against high level players (even if used by high level players). Some heroes would probably have a win-rate 30% higher if mid to low level play was also looked at. But in high level play, they suck, so they get's buffs to balance them out up top which further breaks mid to low level play.

Also I read that one comment, where according to him, using mid and low level data would be useless, because it would be more dependent on the player's skill rather than the picked hero. Dude, have you ever heard about statistics?


High skill players will use the given moves to their maximum potential. Low skill players dont do that. So if you want balance, you want to look at the people who "abuse" mechanics and movesets the most.

You simply cannot balance a game according to the low skill players. If you would do that: every 400 or 500ms Attack / Melee will be now 600+ms because low skill players cannot react fast enough or correctly to them. So, with all moves being 600+ms - high level play is destroyed. No one would attack EVER because every move you do will be punished.

Edit. Name one, just ONE, PVP game that balanced around the low - medium skilled population. I would be suprised if you can do that...

Camemberto
08-01-2018, 02:21 PM
High skill players will use the given moves to their maximum potential. Low skill players dont do that. So if you want balance, you want to look at the people who "abuse" mechanics and movesets the most.

You simply cannot balance a game according to the low skill players. If you would do that: every 400 or 500ms Attack / Melee will be now 600+ms because low skill players cannot react fast enough or correctly to them. So, with all moves being 600+ms - high level play is destroyed. No one would attack EVER because every move you do will be punished.

Edit. Name one, just ONE, PVP game that balanced around the low - medium skilled population. I would be suprised if you can do that...

That would indeed be the case if you limited the whole balancing issue to timing. Of course there is no middle ground timing wise, and don't even get me started on console vs pc.

But that's exactly what they did. Every defense maneuver (especially parry) is so ******* powerful and every half decent offensive maneuver is also way to powerful if it's not parried. And the only way they balanced them in this game was to reduce the time frame for pulling off defense. Now effectively you either get the parry and win or you don't and you lose. There is no middle ground. That is precisely the problem for honor has and you summed it up perfectly.

Also "abuse" is not the right word. Some movesets are just way to spammable and therefore very viable even in the hands of a chump.

Also I can't name one. But I can say that every other game I have every played felt more balanced than for honor. So whatever they are doing sure as hell ain't working. They might satisfy their top 2.5% but that's not a number to build a future on if they decide to abandon the rest of the community by giving absolutely zero F's.

Charmzzz
08-01-2018, 02:48 PM
That would indeed be the case if you limited the whole balancing issue to timing. Of course there is no middle ground timing wise, and don't even get me started on console vs pc.

But that's exactly what they did. Every defense maneuver (especially parry) is so ******* powerful and every half decent offensive maneuver is also way to powerful if it's not parried. And the only way they balanced them in this game was to reduce the time frame for pulling off defense. Now effectively you either get the parry and win or you don't and you lose. There is no middle ground. That is precisely the problem for honor has and you summed it up perfectly.

Also "abuse" is not the right word. Some movesets are just way to spammable and therefore very viable even in the hands of a chump.

Also I can't name one. But I can say that every other game I have every played felt more balanced than for honor. So whatever they are doing sure as hell ain't working. They might satisfy their top 2.5% but that's not a number to build a future on if they decide to abandon the rest of the community by giving absolutely zero F's.

Gosh, Console vs PC... I am tired of explaining that 30 to 60 FPS is a marginal reaction time increase (~17ms at max).

Defensive maneuvers:
- Block (will interrupt Chains if you block a Light)
- Parry
- Dodge
- Light Attack (yes, Attacking IS a defensive option - you can counter GB attemps and slower moves with it)

Every half decent offensive maneuver is unparryable anyway, the "good" moves are mostly melee bashes which can only be dodged.

Where did they reduce the timeframe to "pull off defense"? I really have no idea what you mean with that.

ALL Movesets are spammable. Literally all of them. I have never seen any Fighting Game where the Moves were not spammable, lol.

See, you cannot name one. Because no one ever would do this. Which PVP game felt more balanced than For Honor? Empty phrases are not arguments. Every PVP game I can think of had serious balancing issues and never ever stopped balancing.

Erhanninja
08-01-2018, 03:15 PM
I believe Shaman has always been favourite of the Devs and never will be balanced in true meaning. She was designed to be superior to every other hero. I very much doubt they even tested it before releasing. She is basically Zerk equivalent without HA. What she lacks in HA she excels in her mobility. Jumping half way across the map with attack coming from any direction with execution ability. Zero risk headbutt from zero distance into two free lights with ledge risk. Or double throw from GB throw into another headbutt. Mix and match best feats. They wanna balance Shaman but they keep nerfing Nobushi coz she is strong in 4v4? Thatís BS. Itís because they donít want to Nerf Shaman. I dare them to play Nobu in 4v4. They nerfed her to the ground. She is slow as turtle now. I was shouting here for months why Shaman gets double throw from GB. No answer. When I get parried or GBed by a Shaman timings are so different. She has much more leeway than there heroes.

SaschoS
08-01-2018, 07:37 PM
F BS I am hearing all the time. Because most noobs are not wining with OP chars that is why winrate is lower. They are just watching streamers kicking *** with cent and they want to do it too. And no matter how skilled you are you can f level up your centurion in f 2 days without breaking sweat that how f easy it is. GTFO with f brain dead mechanics already and also we are not here to play f poker.

NHLGoldenKnight
08-01-2018, 08:09 PM
Now, Shaman just jump to you with a pretty slow start up animation. If you have problems with her jumps, so you have problems with Conq shield bash, HL kick, Shinobi kick, Glad bash etc.=)
If you could dodge all this stuff, you will easily dodge Shaman jumps.

Well, I can't because I don't see her. That is an issue. For such a powerful move, see sure has a good range to go with that so if I am already fighting 1 or 2 other players her jump comes completely unexpected because I can't even see her often. She is out of the screen almost always, similar to Shinobi range attack, the one that grabs you and pulls you towards him? Those 2 moves are both powerful and completely OP in 4v4 gameplay because they can be at safe distance and throw their attack when out of your range and your fov. Yeah, Lawbringer can impale you suddenly but he is slow and you still see him running. Even if he lands impale charge, damage is minimal. On the other hand Shaman/Shinobi deal great damage with minimal risk.

I don't have problem with Shaman moves in general. But I have problem with her getting so much and more for being just an assasin. She is basically mix of Berserker and Centurion on steroids.
Why she has to have almost everything? High damage, superior fainting, canceling everything into anything, good stamina, unblockables, self healing, crazy bite thing, sprint speed, jumping, throwing better than full grown Vikings such as Raider or Warlord and on top of that her feats/traps are cancer in Dominion if you have 2 or more Shamans per team. She is an assasin in name only but they sure did make sure to give her much more than assasin should have.

DefiledDragon
08-01-2018, 08:43 PM
People in here forget that this is a fighting game. Go ahead, join the Tekken, MK, Street Fighter or Injustice. There you would get ra*ed even harder.

There is no way the Dev's would balance this game around the low-skill-population. Why would they do that? Nobody would play a fighting game if the skill ceiling is so low that even a Newbie can beat a Master...

Nope, those games are balanced.

dinosaurlicker
08-02-2018, 03:42 AM
Shaman has everything in the game. So shut the **** up and stop defending her. Go jack off to your 50 shaman reps on your own time you ***s.

Charmzzz
08-02-2018, 10:47 AM
Nope, those games are balanced.

Sure Bro. That's why they do Balance Patches and have Character Rankings that are obviously showing stronger and weaker Characters. Proof:

http://rank.shoryuken.com/stats/index?game=INJUSTICE2
https://www.vg247.com/2018/02/08/injustice-2-patch-1-16-brings-a-lot-of-balance-changes/

Interesting Read: http://www.pauseresume.com/balance-in-fighting-games/

SpaceJim12
08-02-2018, 10:58 AM
Well, I can't because I don't see her. That is an issue. For such a powerful move, see sure has a good range to go with that so if I am already fighting 1 or 2 other players her jump comes completely unexpected because I can't even see her often. She is out of the screen almost always, similar to Shinobi range attack, the one that grabs you and pulls you towards him? Those 2 moves are both powerful and completely OP in 4v4 gameplay because they can be at safe distance and throw their attack when out of your range and your fov. Yeah, Lawbringer can impale you suddenly but he is slow and you still see him running. Even if he lands impale charge, damage is minimal. On the other hand Shaman/Shinobi deal great damage with minimal risk.

Well, I never played Shaman, just don't like her style. But I got 8 rep Shinobi. And I could assure you, that I could "grab" someone only if I choose right moment, and right position. In any other case people just CGB me easily.=)
So, I believe same happend with Shaman. I don't have troubles with her jumps. Sure, sometimes it's unpredictable, but I always believe, that this mean Shaman took right time and right position.

SpaceJim12
08-02-2018, 11:00 AM
Shaman has everything in the game. So shut the **** up and stop defending her. Go jack off to your 50 shaman reps on your own time you ***s.

I have level zero Shaman.=) Honestly, I don't have this hero at all.

DefiledDragon
08-02-2018, 03:24 PM
Sure Bro. That's why they do Balance Patches and have Character Rankings that are obviously showing stronger and weaker Characters. Proof:

http://rank.shoryuken.com/stats/index?game=INJUSTICE2
https://www.vg247.com/2018/02/08/injustice-2-patch-1-16-brings-a-lot-of-balance-changes/

Interesting Read: http://www.pauseresume.com/balance-in-fighting-games/

I think the spammy nature of some of For Honor's heroes make them feel worse than they probably are tbh and the latency issues don't help. I actually played Street Fighter to a pretty high level back in the day (regional championships) and never felt like any character was uncounterable. Saying that, I'm going back to the days of SFII and the contests were played locally on an arcade cabinet rather than online so latency wasn't an issue. I'm not as much into the SF scene as I once was so maybe things ain't what they were.