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Maxime_Qc-
07-28-2018, 09:15 AM
Why does the kensei as become such a fkn ******* character ?



Super fast ... so fast that even if i know what he gonna do i just can't fkn counter it

All his move has become so .. how can i say that ( sorry im french lol. Litteraly the inverse of highly telegraphed..)

Even if i know he gonna throw me a top light i can't flk deflect it even if he doing it again and again

With some delay....

And why does he throw such a fast top light after his dodge heavy...

Even tho hes doing it 100% of the time due to the move being SUPER safe it's impossible to parry....

If the dodge heavy hit me it seems to be GARANTEE ... unless maybe if you have an active guard...and allready had it up.. i don't know....

So i can only block the light after dodge heavy because of the recovery on the first block ?

And why does he seem to have no recovery at all...

Like he can dodge out of a any ****ing attack

Wtf

He also Now as the strongest punish out of a guardbreak ( i think its 40 damage for A SIDE HEAVY) ... Not counting wall splat

So many fkn feint and NEVER out of stamina .....


AND have you allready seen a kensei on revenge mode fighting 2 or more people
.. untouchable ... even unnaproachable

We.the.North
07-28-2018, 03:39 PM
On one side, you have Kensei's "gallop" dodge attacks making him immune to everything for 2-3 seconds.

On the other side, you have Valkyrie's dodge attack that roots her in place, not even ... you know ... dodging any attack.

Balanced.

Vakris_One
07-28-2018, 04:08 PM
On one side, you have Kensei's "gallop" dodge attacks making him immune to everything for 2-3 seconds.

On the other side, you have Valkyrie's dodge attack that roots her in place, not even ... you know ... dodging any attack.

Balanced.
I wouldn't call Kensei being able to be hit out of his dodge attack "immune":

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8DcfhGJxIeA

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H_RjQp6rUk0

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FDtS3it6olg

His dodge attack properties function the same as any other in the game. The fact that Valkyrie (and Nobushi) have abysmal dodge attacks that can't dodge most things is a problem with Valk and Nobu, not the Kensei.

We.the.North
07-28-2018, 07:54 PM
True, certain character have a very wide range of attack side HEAVY. Then again ... you wont often see players do side heavies from neutral that aren't feint bait.

Kensei dodge attack will dodge all other fast attacks in the game. I know a Shinobi has NOTHING that can track a Kensei dodge attack ... even the quad dodge kick will whiff in the air while it catch any other character's dodge in this game (except Shaman and Berserker)

SenBotsu893
07-28-2018, 08:54 PM
On one side, you have Kensei's "gallop" dodge attacks making him immune to everything for 2-3 seconds.

On the other side, you have Valkyrie's dodge attack that roots her in place, not even ... you know ... dodging any attack.

Balanced.

i gues you mixed up valkyrie with nobushi. since valk has i-frames on her dodge attack but nobushi does not have any i frames on any dodge attack

Vakris_One
07-28-2018, 11:01 PM
True, certain character have a very wide range of attack side HEAVY. Then again ... you wont often see players do side heavies from neutral that aren't feint bait.

Kensei dodge attack will dodge all other fast attacks in the game.
Yes, just like every other dodge attack in the game minus poor Nobushi's.



I know a Shinobi has NOTHING that can track a Kensei dodge attack ... even the quad dodge kick will whiff in the air while it catch any other character's dodge in this game (except Shaman and Berserker)
That's because the kensei has the slowest dodge attack in the entire game and he can slightly delay the startup . If you're not throwing out a side attack that can disrupt him before he hits you then he will hit you. During a quad dash the Shinobi is not throwing out anything that can disrupt the Kensei during his slow striking animation.

Tracking-wise, a Shinobi can for sure track a Kensei during his dodge attack if the correct set of circumstances is met

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_GTNVz5UpU

Awlkara
07-28-2018, 11:18 PM
His mixup game is stronger than most Assassins and he's tankier with more damage plus has armor.

He has counterplay to any sort of counterplay against him.

He definitely needs some toning down or other heroes need to be buffed in his stead.

If you look at him vs the other Vanguards, minus Tiandi, he is so overtooled that it looked biased.

Arekonator
07-28-2018, 11:40 PM
His mixup game is 100% reactable with no 400ms attacks like most assasins have.
He is the only vanguard to get a rework so far, of course he is on different level. I shoudnt have to explain why comparing pre-rework and post-rework character is pointless.
His GB heavy counts as second in the chain and only does 25 dmg.

Awlkara
07-28-2018, 11:43 PM
His mixup game is 100% reactable with no 400ms attacks like most assasins have.
He is the only vanguard to get a rework so far, of course he is on different level. I shoudnt have to explain why comparing pre-rework and post-rework character is pointless.

Tell that to Peacekeeper who received nerfs accross the board and no new moves. She's had the most low effort "rework" of all the heroes.

Even Warden and Valk are going to be treated better. (yes I am salty but I've never played pre-rework PK)

Arekonator
07-28-2018, 11:45 PM
Tell that to Peacekeeper who received nerfs accross the board and no new moves. She's had the most low effort "rework" of all the heroes.

Even Warden and Valk are going to be treated better. (yes I am salty but I've never played pre-rework PK)
Mechanically her kit got better, the fact her numbers were nerfed bit too hard is another matter entirely. What i said still stands.

Lord_Cherubi
07-29-2018, 01:10 AM
I've said this before and will say it again: Kensei is the most balanced hero in the game and everyone else should be toned to his level. Seriously strong but in no way overpowered. He has many tools but every one of them you can counter if you know how.

He has a VERY fast top light so trying to deflect it (especially on console) is propably not the best strategy.

Light isn't guaranteed off his dodge attack. Again, it's fast but easy to block if you know it's coming (spammers).

Im rep 6 Kensei and while i can say he is extremely strong, even average players can sometimes rip me off my mix-up game if they stay on their toes.

The only thing in his kit that needs fixing is his UB feat which is horribly unbalanced but then again so is most of the active feats as we all know by now...

Siegfried-Z
07-29-2018, 01:58 AM
I've said this before and will say it again: Kensei is the most balanced hero in the game and everyone else should be toned to his level. Seriously strong but in no way overpowered. He has many tools but every one of them you can counter if you know how.

He has a VERY fast top light so trying to deflect it (especially on console) is propably not the best strategy.

Light isn't guaranteed off his dodge attack. Again, it's fast but easy to block if you know it's coming (spammers).

Im rep 6 Kensei and while i can say he is extremely strong, even average players can sometimes rip me off my mix-up game if they stay on their toes.

The only thing in his kit that needs fixing is his UB feat which is horribly unbalanced but then again so is most of the active feats as we all know by now...

Thank you and to Vakris too. .
So many people here are not objectif about Kensei.
I am rep 103 on PS4 and Kensei main (even before rework) and while yes he is strong, he is in any way op.

He is just were devs want most char to be i think.
He has a rich and strong mix up but everything he can do is reactable!
Plus if you are a little smart and keep as most as possible your guard on your right because his zone is fast and then you know his ONLY way to engage is top light. . Then you realize he is really not op.

The pommel strike is soo slow and side lights are always parried compared to the free almost guaranteed triple Roch lights LOL

The funny thing is that i see many people saying he has so many tools compare to others vanguards etc but since when tools are meaning strong ?? Excuse me but valkyrie has a lot of tools and is she strong ?

Pk was the best char for a while before Conq took the first place and she was the strongest char without HA, Unblocable or special mooves. . She was destroying everyone just thanks to fast lights and fast zone !

So, i know haters gonna hate by hey haters try to think a bit more before hating pls.

Maxime_Qc-
07-29-2018, 03:01 AM
I've said this before and will say it again: Kensei is the most balanced hero in the game and everyone else should be toned to his level. Seriously strong but in no way overpowered. He has many tools but every one of them you can counter if you know how.

He has a VERY fast top light so trying to deflect it (especially on console) is propably not the best strategy.

Light isn't guaranteed off his dodge attack. Again, it's fast but easy to block if you know it's coming (spammers).

Im rep 6 Kensei and while i can say he is extremely strong, even average players can sometimes rip me off my mix-up game if they stay on their toes.

The only thing in his kit that needs fixing is his UB feat which is horribly unbalanced but then again so is most of the active feats as we all know by now...

His top light seems so fast because of the way he throw it.... like...ain't every light in the game (or most of them and fastest of them) are 400 ms ? ...

It's just dumb that he got the only top light i can't deflect or even parry...

I even (maybe 50% of the times) succeed to deflect lawbringer first top light...

But never ever get it in kensei...

It seems that the red indicator appear AFTET you got hit !.....

Arekonator
07-29-2018, 05:33 AM
Most lights in the game are either 500 or 600ms. Kensei got 500ms top and 600ms side lights, his soft feint lights are all 500ms. If you can deflect/parry LB top light, you should be able to do so with kensei at the same timing. Only 400ms lights are PK, zerker and rochi chain lights + the PK + shaman top bleed feints.

Keef739
07-29-2018, 05:51 AM
kensei is the strongest character in the game right now. such is life.

The zone could use a mild nerf to its absurd range.

If youre using an ASSASSIN, the hitstun from a successful kensei side dodge attack makes it feel almost impossible to block the followup light, let alone parry it. Thats because assassins have a ridiculous limitation that prevents them from queueing a block DURING hitstun. The window of opportunity for them to block starts at the END of the hitstun and the resolutuon of the followup light is too soon after. This isnt kenseis fault. The hitstun isnt too long and the light finisher isnt too fast, assassin guard is just a poorly implemented handicap that makes blocking unreasonably difficult because their analog is dead during hitstun, and they have to take it FROM CENTER to block AFTER the hitstun ends.

anyways, other characters need to be brought up to the standard that kensei has set, not the other way around.

Knight_Raime
07-29-2018, 06:08 AM
His top light seems so fast because of the way he throw it.... like...ain't every light in the game (or most of them and fastest of them) are 400 ms ? ...

It's just dumb that he got the only top light i can't deflect or even parry...

I even (maybe 50% of the times) succeed to deflect lawbringer first top light...

But never ever get it in kensei...

It seems that the red indicator appear AFTET you got hit !.....


The only 400ms attack Kensei has is his hilt bash. But that comes 600ms into the top heavy animation.
afaik there are no indicator bugs with Kensei. If there was the competitive community would have found it and noted it long ago like when Shaman had one.


kensei is the strongest character in the game right now. such is life.

The zone could use a mild nerf to its absurd range.

If youre using an ASSASSIN, the hitstun from a successful kensei side dodge attack makes it feel almost impossible to block the followup light, let alone parry it. Thats because assassins have a ridiculous limitation that prevents them from queueing a block DURING hitstun. The window of opportunity for them to block starts at the END of the hitstun and the resolutuon of the followup light is too soon after. This isnt kenseis fault. The hitstun isnt too long and the light finisher isnt too fast, assassin guard is just a poorly implemented handicap that makes blocking unreasonably difficult because their analog is dead during hitstun, and they have to take it FROM CENTER to block AFTER the hitstun ends.

anyways, other characters need to be brought up to the standard that kensei has set, not the other way around.

No he's not. He's A tier in duels. Zerker is considered the best duelist atm.

reflex vs standard neither is 100% better than the other. Reflex guard is not subject to guard switch recovery. Meaning they can gb/cgb, attack, and dodge instantly after switching. Where as standard guard heros can't because they have guard switch recovery.

Both standard and reflex can be trapped into a hitstun. The conditions on how that happens varies. But on both if you happen to eat a hit that you failed to block in time and then try to switch to block the follow up during the hitstun both guard types will eat the follow up hit. The only time this isn't the case is when standard guard heros abuse a guard switch bug that lets them ignore the 100ms switch delay that every hero has. And because the bug lets them ignore the switch delay they can block instantly.

OhHowSheGoingEh
07-29-2018, 07:54 AM
Kensei needs a nerf all around. He should lose his HA, and his side dodge attacks. Hes a vanguard, not an assassin so why does he get a better attack than assassin's? He's not a heavy yet he has hyper armor.
The warden doesn't have a dodge attack, he doesn't even get a dodge gb, he gets hyper armor on a charged shoulder bash which usually get punished anyways.
The raider doesn't get any hyperarmor if my memory is correct, though he gets a dodge gb and you could argue the stunning tap is a type of dodge attack (I myself don't consider it a dodge attack.)
The Kensei also needs to lose his chilling stare feat. He's a vanguard not assassin's why does he get a debuff feat that targets and lingers on the enemy AND affects his allies with the debuff feat as well. The unblockable feats needs to go too, it basically god mode for the duration of then feat.

ArmoredChocobo
07-29-2018, 08:02 AM
Kensei is ridiculous, heís an Assassin in Vanguardís clothing.

Top heavy from neutral? Youíre totally gonna punish th- nope itís a bash, eat some guaranteed lights.

Ok youíll surprise him with a fein- nope he used Swift Strike late into his dodge and effectively got a double dodge, you eat a Heavy AND a light.

He just did swift strike and is doing a finisher top heavy so youíre gonna dodg- no he GBíd you.

Ok this time youíll interrup- nope he feinted into side heavy with hyper armor.

Ok this time- he feints into ANOTHER Swift Strike.

Ok n- feint Light.

Well now you know ALL his tricks so he canít possibly- he let the finisher play out as you were busy guessing.


Playing as a Kensei feels like Iím cheating.

ChampionRuby50g
07-29-2018, 08:07 AM
Kensei needs a nerf all around. He should lose his HA, and his side dodge attacks. Hes a vanguard, not an assassin so why does he get a better attack than assassin's? He's not a heavy yet he has hyper armor.
The warden doesn't have a dodge attack, he doesn't even get a dodge gb, he gets hyper armor on a charged shoulder bash which usually get punished anyways.
The raider doesn't get any hyperarmor if my memory is correct, though he gets a dodge gb and you could argue the stunning tap is a type of dodge attack (I myself don't consider it a dodge attack.)
The Kensei also needs to lose his chilling stare feat. He's a vanguard not assassin's why does he get a debuff feat that targets and lingers on the enemy AND affects his allies with the debuff feat as well. The unblockable feats needs to go too, it basically god mode for the duration of then feat.


Wardens SB is considered a dodge attack, because you can dodge enemy strikes with it and landing it confirms a light attack. Iím pretty sure you can dodge enemy attacks with raiders stunning tap too, which deals damage thus it is considered to be a dodge attack.

Keef739
07-29-2018, 09:07 AM
No he's not. He's A tier in duels. Zerker is considered the best duelist atm.

Kensei has a good matchup against EVERYBODY including zerk.

If you deflect (suprblock) his chain is interrupted, and if you get a clean dodge you can trade uninterruptibles (not ideal). This means dodges are fully viable (unlike most assassins vs zerk).

Since you can safely dodge, you never have to parry to punish his aggression, which means he cant punish your defense with feintGB (unless you dodge too late to string the attack). He has to dial back the aggression and try to bait your dodges for parries.

Kensei can delay his dodge attack so long that you never have to commit to a bait if youre paying attention, and you can still string the dodge attack in reaction to a GB attempt.

Now youre back at neutral, and kenseis neutral kit is miles and leagues ahead.

ez game

Erhanninja
07-29-2018, 10:41 AM
Iím not saying Kensei is OP or anything. I never play Kensei maybe every once in a while. But when I do I just do top light or zone or dodge attack into top light. And I win most of the fights. We all know top light is coming from dodge attack but I still everybody getting hit by it. Not sure if hero specific. I only say Raider blocking it so far.

I think having HA on lights are too strong because light attack is fast especially for Kensei itís faster. I try to interrupt him or hit before coz itís HA I get hit instead. Also zone is quite strong because itís instant with HA and can cancel second part into anything. He has a very strong feint game maybe worse than Zerk in a sense. Again not saying OP but points to consider. Oh obviously I find dodging 100 attacks during dodge attack a bit absurd.

Arekonator
07-29-2018, 10:43 AM
Imagine being so bad you have problem with the slowest dodge attack in the game.
There, i said it.

Erhanninja
07-29-2018, 11:12 AM
Obviously speed of a move is important for how strong it is but thatís not the only factor. Itís mostly depends on that if you are facing one to one from neutral. Both in 4v4 itís a different story. Kensei can fight one person and do dodge attack while changing target ending up on the other end of the zone. I have to do 5-6 forward dodge to reach him. Itís a very strong move in 6-8 fights even though itís slow. Again dodging and blocking all attacks in the process. Again not saying itís OP but points to be aware.

Arekonator
07-29-2018, 11:29 AM
"dodging and blocking all attacks in the process"
Debunked. Except requirement of longer range, his dodge attacks is under effect of all normal dodge attack limitations and can, and often is, hit out of. Furthe, his superior block isnt active once he goes from dodge to the attack part and even then it only blocks attacks from single direction.

Awlkara
07-29-2018, 01:53 PM
He's honestly overtooled.

If they slowed down his top light, W+Spacebar, nerfed his homing because his normals will follow you across the galaxy, and removed his armor I'd be fine.

I've done the double dodge back roll and a Kensei literally slid across the ground a few feet to home in on me and slice me in half, it was ****ing ridiculous.

Siegfried-Z
07-29-2018, 02:18 PM
Every people here having that much problems with Kensei means you have problem with all standard mechanics of the game...

The only moment where he is very strong is at anti ganking

Awlkara
07-29-2018, 02:22 PM
Every people here having that much problems with Kensei means you have problem with all standard mechanics of the game...

The only moment where he is very strong is at anti ganking

I can parry the first hit Orochi lights on reaction and most lights in the game.

Kensei is seriously overtooled for any of the stuff that he has. You are not even providing counter points anymore you are just now slinging insults.

Unless you have any meat to add or points to counter it's not best for you to comment.

Arekonator
07-29-2018, 03:14 PM
Why slow down his top light? 600ms lights without any special properties shoudnt even exist at this point. Regardless, kensei speed is perfectly average in comparsion to others,
If you can parry standard 500ms lights but cant parry kensei top lighs and dash top lights then thats not because they are too fast, there is some other problem and thats you, Only thing that i can agree is that tracking on his zone is bit over the top but thats honestly all there is. To acces all his mixups he has to go through super slow top heavy. You can hit him out of it with anything 500ms. Further, all his mixups are perfectly reactable, even in average joe's mid tier play. The fact that half of the cast doesnt have proper tools doesnt mean that kensei is overtooled.
No easily spammable unblockable to abuse.

Kensei is honestly one of the, if not THE best balanced character in the game atm.

Lord_Cherubi
07-29-2018, 03:48 PM
Every people here having that much problems with Kensei means you have problem with all standard mechanics of the game...

The only moment where he is very strong is at anti ganking

Yeah and i think it's not a bad thing to have at least one hero that can handle gankers and be a serious threat. Afterall it's called a ZONE attack for a reason

JCL.
07-29-2018, 04:47 PM
You can't slow down his lights. 600ms lights are a thing of the past. If you can't parry those on reaction, get better, because you are not good.

Awlkara
07-29-2018, 05:12 PM
I think I may be confusing his lights. One of them I can easily parry and one is so fast that I can barely see it coming.

I'm pretty sure it's his W+Spacebar that's the unreasonable one. 500ms is fine but my main point is that Kensei doesn't need to be as fast and overtooled as he is for how much he already has going for him.

If he becomes the standard then fine, I'd much rather characters like PK. LB, WL,Shugo and a few others to be buffed to his level.

Arekonator
07-29-2018, 05:30 PM
They are both same speed except the helmspliter is further telegraphed by the dash.
What i am trying to explain his speed is on the lower side of average and his tools arent excessive. And yes, as far as i know he is considered sort of benchmark devs try to aim for. Vith various sucess.

Knight_Raime
07-29-2018, 05:30 PM
Kensei needs a nerf all around. He should lose his HA, and his side dodge attacks. Hes a vanguard, not an assassin so why does he get a better attack than assassin's? He's not a heavy yet he has hyper armor.
The warden doesn't have a dodge attack, he doesn't even get a dodge gb, he gets hyper armor on a charged shoulder bash which usually get punished anyways.
The raider doesn't get any hyperarmor if my memory is correct, though he gets a dodge gb and you could argue the stunning tap is a type of dodge attack (I myself don't consider it a dodge attack.)
The Kensei also needs to lose his chilling stare feat. He's a vanguard not assassin's why does he get a debuff feat that targets and lingers on the enemy AND affects his allies with the debuff feat as well. The unblockable feats needs to go too, it basically god mode for the duration of then feat.

This kind of argument is tiring. Classes have little impact on kits. Kensei had armor before his rework. His rework only added it to light finishers. Dodge attacks have never been exclusive to assassins either. Shaolin is the up and coming hybrid. He'll have a reflex guard despite not being an assassin.


Kensei has a good matchup against EVERYBODY including zerk.

If you deflect (suprblock) his chain is interrupted, and if you get a clean dodge you can trade uninterruptibles (not ideal). This means dodges are fully viable (unlike most assassins vs zerk).

Since you can safely dodge, you never have to parry to punish his aggression, which means he cant punish your defense with feintGB (unless you dodge too late to string the attack). He has to dial back the aggression and try to bait your dodges for parries.

Kensei can delay his dodge attack so long that you never have to commit to a bait if youre paying attention, and you can still string the dodge attack in reaction to a GB attempt.

Now youre back at neutral, and kenseis neutral kit is miles and leagues ahead.

ez game

"kensei has a good matchup against everybody." Sorry but no. The win loss data they gained from the top 2.5% players in season 5 shows Kensei has some poor match ups. I should technically just bow out here since you clearly don't know match ups. But i'll add a little more.

"If you superior block his chain is interrupted..." Side superior block doesn't guarantee anything in normal situations. Which leaves his forward superior dodge. Which you have to bait into. Trying to dodge forward on reaction doesn't often work against fast attacks. Besides that zerk has the ability to do certain feint sequences to delay his attacks. Meaning raw dodging forward into his combo isn't really going to work out.

"since you can safely dodge..." If your auto response to any player let alone zerk is to dodge you can be baited. Kensei's dodge is super obvious and has a fair bit of vulnerability once he starts the dodge/dodge attack.

"Kensei can delay his dodge attack..." So can any assassin. (only 2 assassins with poor dodge delaying are pk and glad) Nothing about his dodge attack is better than other assassins. His dodge attack is slow especially if you delay it. Meaning delaying to punish is a lot more difficult. You wouldn't be able to punish a quick attack by doing that. Where as Orochi can punish conq's entire forward bash timing mix up because of how quick his dodge attack is. kensei's dodge can't. So I really doubt you can actually punish anything the zerker does on dodge sans maybe his unblockable finishers.

The only thing kensei holds over zerker is an unblockable bash. Zerk has better speed and the ability to trade constantly. You clearly don't know zerks kit strengths and what makes him the best duelist in the game. And the fact that you think Dodge happy kensei is as strong as you're making it means you probably suck with kensei and only fight low skill players. Kensei's dodge attack is great against some mix ups. Like highlanders kick toss mix up. But it's realatively poor against most bait based mix ups. And superior block dodge while amazing is only great from forward dodge. And it's something you have to use on prediction. Very few kensei's even use it. It's not a tool that gets used often because of how niche it is and how difficult it is to use against a competent player. Hell even Kensei's armor is basically useless in duels outside people who commit to parry too often or are just stupidly aggressive for no reason.

Kensei is good. But he's not S tier at least in duels.