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JediGamerFurius
07-24-2018, 04:49 PM
Hello guys

I'm just making this post because I'm quite confuse on how am I suppost to play as a shinobi. I want to hear all the shinobi mains feedback cus right now I don't feel like playing right with shinobi and I will explain why. First of all, I use more parry then dodge and there is a reason for this. Let's go for an exemple of two bleed atacks. The teleport light (deflect) wich cause no damage but add bleed dmg of 5 for sec resulting in 25 dmg total. The shadown strike (parry) gives 14 dmg and add bleed dmg of 3 for sec resulting in 29 dmg total. As you can see the seccond one gives more damage, althrough this is not the only reason I choose parry or blocks instead of dodge and deflects. I find blocks and parry a lot more easier to do, so I'm quite becoming a NINJA TURTLE! I'm able to parry and block almost everything even kensei's light. Talking about the devil I avoid to use my kicks on him, cus he always cancel his unblockeable or heavy and punish me with a GB or other atack, I know i should wait for the final moment to dodge but again it's a lot more easier wait for parry. Am I doing right? Cus seriously I don't feel like playing with an assassin.

We.the.North
07-24-2018, 05:07 PM
If you are that good at blocking / parrying, Shinobi is not for you. Other heroes have way better parry punish and a lot more things to abuse in revenge state.

I believe Shinobi is for players like me who CAN'T block / parry (so never gets revenge), because I'm old with poor reflexes and have a very bad computer. As a result, I need a character that :

1. Have the best dodges in the game.
2. Excels at playing the "support" role with ranged attacks.

First, about the dodgge vs parry argument. Parry is always better since it drains stamina, provides free damage punish and builds up your revenge. If you can choose between dodging and parrying, always parry. That being said, Shinobi excels at dodging ... Hence why I'm saying Shinobi is usually not for players that are very good at blocking / parrying, other characters can do better things with parry punish and revenge ********.

As Shinobi, you are far from the best dueler in the game. Berserkers and Kenseis should eat you alive. If you truely choose to master the Shinobi character, you need to learn for every character in the game all the small windows where they are in "recovery" frames that leads to a guaranteed ranged guard break. Your role on the battlefield is to support your allies and get your opponents into sickle rains stun while you allies finish them off with free damage.

If that's not what you want to master, pick another class.

Knight_Raime
07-24-2018, 05:58 PM
Not a Shinobi main. But thought i'd throw my hat in the ring with some rapid fire points:

~Shinobi's range on his standard attacks are deceptive. His range isn't farther really compared to other hero's basic attacks but people just don't expect them. They're really used optimally as interrupts when someone else tries to start an attack.

~Master quad dashing. Was a silly tactic beforehand but since his double dash was kinda nerfed with the normalizing of back dashes being able to quad dash at all is helpful.

~A basic tactic you can use against aggressive players is baiting whiffs so you can back flip into ranged GB for sickle rain.

~IIRC if you deflect into kick it guarantees a ranged hit from the opposite side of your opponents guard. There is also a deflect touch of death combo with revenge.

~Not sure if you knew or not but the ranged heavy after kick doesn't have to be buffered. Which means you could potentially use it if someone attempts to punish the kick.

~from rolling in you can light, kick, or heavy into sickle rain. how your opponent reacts to the roll in will depend what you use.

In dominion your most useful at timing your ranged GB's during recoveries to get sickle rain on enemies in group fights. In general your game is about trying to force the opponent to play your game. Not you playing his. You do this by interrupting attacks with lights and throwing constant whiffs to bait the enemy into moving/reacting poorly. This includes whiffing a light or a kick on purpose. but you can also whiff heavies/ranged heavies in the right situations. quad dashing and back flips are used to mainly just annoy and distract enemies. Shinobi has no offense of his own and he's not a very good turtle. he's at his best when he's playing the annoying fly that you try to swat at.

We.the.North
07-24-2018, 06:06 PM
~A basic tactic you can use against aggressive players is baiting whiffs so you can back flip into ranged GB for sickle rain.

Doesn't work vs Berserker
Doesn't work vs Conqueror
Doesn't work vs Kensei
Doesn't work vs Highlander
Doesn't work vs Warden (at my elo, they are actualy the one baiting you by feinting a heavy)
Doesn't work vs Valkyrie
Doesn't work vs Shaman
...

basically, any character that can chain into something else after the attack they whiffed will make you whiff your ranged GB and you'll be punished. A lot of reworked and new heroes screwed up the backflip bait. Your actually better off just learning against who it works because it barely ever works anymore.

In doubt, just throw a ranged Heavy after your backflip bait (it'll interrupt their 2nd attack instead of making your ranged GB whiff) and forget the ranged GB for now. But do know if your opponent is baited into a Guardbreak while you are backflipping, the ranged GB is 100% guaranteed.

However ...

Your ranged heavy will go right through a conq who is immaterial during his shield bash.
Your ranged heavy will go right into Kensei / Berserker hyper armor and you'll lose the trade.
etc.

Hence my comment earlier : As Shinobi, you need to learn every single matchup in the game and know when you can and can't do something. Shinobi extremely hard to master, especially with the lowest health pool in the game and the quickest to decay reflex guard stance in the game.

JediGamerFurius
07-24-2018, 06:11 PM
Doesn't work vs Berserker
Doesn't work vs Conqueror
Doesn't work vs Kensei
Doesn't work vs Highlander
Doesn't work vs Warden (at my elo, they are actualy the one baiting you by feinting a heavy)
Doesn't work vs Valkyrie
Doesn't work vs Shaman
...


Could you elaborate on that? Why it doesn't work with those heroes?

We.the.North
07-24-2018, 06:15 PM
Could you elaborate on that? Why it doesn't work with those heroes?

Every attack in the game has a small window of opportunity during its startup animation where your ranged GB is 100% guaranteed. If you miss that window, your ranged GB will whiff on them and feed them a good chunk of revenge meter.

When you whiff your attack to backflip bait, some players might take the bait and throw a heavy. Unfortunatly, a lot of heroes at the moment have 600ms and under heavy attacks that can chain into a light attack. The window of opportunity is so small between the heavy attack and the light attack that your backflip + ranged GB timing will not catch it. As a result, your ranged GB misses the window of opportunity, feed revenge and your opponent hits you with the light attack.

There is also the matter of some heroes having unnatural recovery speed. A shaman that takes the bait with a dodge attack will recover fast enough to counter guardbreak your ranged GB...

A. Lot. Of. Heroes ... can do that now. bait backflip into ranged GB isn't nearly as good as it used to be.

I named those heroes because from personal experience (50+ reputation), it barely ever works on them. Getting to know all those matchup can be a pretty frustrating experience because you never know what works with some heroes ... then the same moves doesn't work on other heroes. Muscle memory will screw you over.

JediGamerFurius
07-24-2018, 06:20 PM
Every attack in the game has a small window of opportunity during its startup animation where your ranged GB is 100% guaranteed. If you miss that window, your ranged GB will whiff on them and feed them a good chunk of revenge meter.

When you whiff your attack to backflip bait, some players might take the bait and throw a heavy. Unfortunatly, a lot of heroes at the moment have 600ms and under heavy attacks that can chain into a light attack. The window of opportunity is so small between the heavy attack and the light attack that your backflip + ranged GB timing will not catch it. As a result, your ranged GB misses the window of opportunity, feed revenge and your opponent hits you with the light attack.

A. Lot. Of. Heroes ... can do that now. bait backflip into ranged GB isn't nearly as good as it used to be.

I see you point. I guess is better not try do bait anyone.

Knight_Raime
07-24-2018, 06:20 PM
Doesn't work vs Berserker
Doesn't work vs Conqueror
Doesn't work vs Kensei
Doesn't work vs Highlander
Doesn't work vs Warden (at my elo, they are actualy the one baiting you by feinting a heavy)
Doesn't work vs Valkyrie
Doesn't work vs Shaman
...

basically, any character that can chain into something else after the attack they whiffed will make you whiff your ranged GB and you'll be punished. A lot of reworked and new heroes screwed up the backflip bait. Your actually better off just learning against who it works because it barely ever works anymore.

In doubt, just throw a ranged Heavy after your backflip bait (it'll interrupt their 2nd attack instead of making your ranged GB whiff) and forget the ranged GB for now. But do know if your opponent is baited into a Guardbreak while you are backflipping, the ranged GB is 100% guaranteed.

However ...

Your ranged heavy will go right through a conq who is immaterial during his shield bash.
Your ranged heavy will go right into Kensei / Berserker hyper armor and you'll lose the trade.
etc.

Hence my comment earlier : As Shinobi, you need to learn every single matchup in the game and know when you can and can't do something. Shinobi extremely hard to master, especially with the lowest health pool in the game and the quickest to decay reflex guard stance in the game.

Any hero can go into an attack after a whiff if their recovery isn't bad to avoid the GB. That's why you don't use it often.
For your list I would say that it doesn't work against zerk, and shaman. Zerk because of his absurd speeds and shaman because of her chase potential with WCR.
Kensei often goes into finishers or heavies after a quick neutral attack. both of which have fairly high recoveries and/or decent windows of vulnerability in start up.
Highlander in OF can't tech the ranged GB. and Highlander seeks to be in OF as often as possible.
If the valk is doing noting but going into FB on back dash nothing can punish that. But she has very bad recovery frames after attacks and bashes. She's pretty well known for that reason.
and warden is a toss up. warden can't really do anything to shin. But shin can't really do anything to warden unless the warden is zone happy.

iirc shinobi's health was buffed to be just a bit under normal assassin HP and actually false. They buffed shin's decay awhile back. his decay isn't the same as standard assassins. But it's slower than glads. His decay is the fastest now. Prior to this buff both shin and glad had the same decay speed.

JediGamerFurius
07-24-2018, 06:39 PM
Hence my comment earlier : As Shinobi, you need to learn every single matchup in the game and know when you can and can't do something. Shinobi extremely hard to master, especially with the lowest health pool in the game and the quickest to decay reflex guard stance in the game.

Indeed, his heath and decay is a joke you can't make any mistakes. I belive that his kit doensn't make up for it. There is one thing good about it you know, if you can turtle with a shinobi you can turtle with every character in the game.

ItBeJUSTICE1
07-24-2018, 11:26 PM
I’ll leave my shinobi issues here rather then make a whole thread cuz I feel like the devs have nothing but straight ruined him. All these crops heroes nerds and buffs they have given have just ruined shinobi. His back dodge got nerfed, his sickle rain from a light parry, everyone’s recovery time counters his 50/50 just about. Plus he has been nerfed repeatedly flat out. I mean the simply fact of shinobi is he will always destroy bad players but good players can counter anything and everything he does easily and get punishments for it. And his few punishments he had that did actual damage have been nerfed. Or removed completely. Now he is solely based on lights and hoping your enemy falls for your baits every single time. Because baits are the only damage you can get and they are easily noticed and learned from. Good players won’t lose more then a round or two to your baits unless you switch em up, whic guess what, they took away half of his possibilities. Or gave good reason not to try certain baits. His character is a mess and they just keep adding to the pile

ItBeJUSTICE1
07-24-2018, 11:29 PM
And as well as all that the recovery time but made his ranged attacks almost 100% useless. You either use it too early and it misses them or they recover from their dodge and punish you. That was the dumbest change they have made yet. I have yet to get a ranged gb on a good player in multiple games

JediGamerFurius
07-25-2018, 12:45 AM
And as well as all that the recovery time but made his ranged attacks almost 100% useless. You either use it too early and it misses them or they recover from their dodge and punish you. That was the dumbest change they have made yet. I have yet to get a ranged gb on a good player in multiple games

I guess the shinobi got bad desing, like having range atacks for example. If you put something like that in char with all the punishable ways possible you better don't do it. I rather have some regular kamas with another possibilities. Even the name of the weapon they mess up, kusarigama is a kama linked to a heavy iron weight by a chain, and what shinobi uses is just a kama linked to his arm by a chain. But anyway, they should known better, now the character is a mess, I guess I will take a word for it and move to another hero.

We.the.North
07-25-2018, 02:23 AM
I guess the shinobi got bad desing, like having range atacks for example. If you put something like that in char with all the punishable ways possible you better don't do it.

Well ... there are few situations where the ranged attacks are actually good.


- Against many characters with a dodge attack, you can make it so your Quad Dash finishes nowhere near them just to bait their dodge attack. A quick ranged heavy should hit them during their end of combo recovery frames. Works extremely well against Peacekeeper.

- Against Berserker, you can backdodge away from his attack spam and once you're defenetely out of range, start charging your ranged attack. If he finishes his infinite chain, he enters 200 ms worth of recovery frames where he's vulnerable to the ranged GB.

etc.

Seriously, Shinobi is a pain to master ... but to me he's probably the most fun character to play because of the ungodly high skill ceiling. But dont kid yourself. He's in the middle of the meta right now even when played by the best Shinobis out there. Other characters can just do what he does... but better. The only other thing he has over the other character are those ranged attacks which a mostly only good in 4v4 with the stealth feat.

Maxime_Qc-
07-25-2018, 03:36 AM
Shinobi back flip is the most useless move in gank.....

Why doing a backflip after attacking is like a free hit for the opponent.... i just don't understand that part !!!

Backflip should be the ultimate evasive move... but lets say i double light a gladiator and do a backflip... EVERYTIME he will track me with a jump attack because he jump faster than i flip back even tho i flipped first...

Or lets say it's 1vs2 and while i hit the guy in front of me i see the red indicator on my right side so i get the F out with a backflip... but no!!... im getting tracked ....

Dumb as F-U-C-K !!!...

Backflip should have ANTI-TRACKING abilitty.... just like some attack have antidodgable abitlity....

why not shinobi got so many BS to deal with allready...

How it feel when you that poor little shino with that Low 90 HP between some GIANT highlander and Lawbringer ganking you.... just getting kicked ,pushed,cabertoss grab etc while the others dun mah glass or heavy bash you with unblockable ....

JediGamerFurius
07-25-2018, 03:34 PM
Well ... there are few situations where the ranged attacks are actually good.



I don't think so, to make shinobi playable again they should rework a couple of things. His backflip distance should be increased or he should be able to defend against any atack, The penality for parry or CGB his range atacks should be lower, like, instead of get in the ground, he is pulled against his enemy, it can garantee a heavy or a GB if in close distance but at the long range he will be pulled but it will not garantee a GB or a heavy because that is the hole point of range atacks, for long distance your are safe but at close you are in danger. His health should be the same as orochi. Without that kind of changes, there is no reason for shinobi uses range atacks.