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Gog..
05-06-2005, 03:14 AM
If and when the Betty gets here, i can see it revolutionising on-line game play.

I have been doing some practising with the QMB. Setting it up with me flying a P-51 or similar Allied aircraft and replicating the same or similiar tactics that I see in the more popular on-line servers with the B-25, 111, A-20 etc, ie: attack from 6 oclock high/low or from slightly left or right of 6 oclock high/low, the results are bad for the fighter, good for the Betty.

I pretty much only fly bombers on-line and do pretty well in the backseat so I'm looking forward to getting even more kills with the cannon in the Betty's tail.

There is a real possibility that in the hands of a decent pilot, the Betty will become one of the most difficult aircraft to shoot down. Oh' and if you are relying on the Betty to Catch fire as soon as you look at it, think again. Set up a QMB with just you and one Betty and see how you go.

Gog..
05-06-2005, 03:14 AM
If and when the Betty gets here, i can see it revolutionising on-line game play.

I have been doing some practising with the QMB. Setting it up with me flying a P-51 or similar Allied aircraft and replicating the same or similiar tactics that I see in the more popular on-line servers with the B-25, 111, A-20 etc, ie: attack from 6 oclock high/low or from slightly left or right of 6 oclock high/low, the results are bad for the fighter, good for the Betty.

I pretty much only fly bombers on-line and do pretty well in the backseat so I'm looking forward to getting even more kills with the cannon in the Betty's tail.

There is a real possibility that in the hands of a decent pilot, the Betty will become one of the most difficult aircraft to shoot down. Oh' and if you are relying on the Betty to Catch fire as soon as you look at it, think again. Set up a QMB with just you and one Betty and see how you go.

DIRTY-MAC
05-06-2005, 04:17 AM
The Betty is pretty manouvreble with combat flaps, With the right timing and tactics you really can make the F4U and P-51s pilots to scratsh their heads, done it several times
try it, its really fun

402Cdn.Valkyrie
05-06-2005, 04:40 AM
so you say now.... lets see how it go when we get new flight models to.

stansdds
05-06-2005, 04:44 AM
The 20mm cannon in the tail is an awesome defensive weapon and is to be feared. The Betty does not have protection from the front or belly, so these are the best areas for attack.

Early model B-25's lacked a tail gunner, but many were field modified to create a tail position. Later production B-25G's and all H's and J's had a tail gunner position with two 50 caliber machine guns.

There was no way the A-20 could have been modified to put a gunner position in the tail.

tigertalon
05-06-2005, 05:57 AM
Sorry, a bit OT, but anyway:

Why the hell did Germans put 20mm cannon in the nose of He111 and not in dorsal or at least ventral position? Did they fear head on attacks so much or what? Plus it can be turned only down, not much up...

AFAIK He111s and Ju88s often strafed enemy during low attacks, that may be the reason...

CKY_86
05-06-2005, 06:08 AM
online fighters pilots will i think learn to aviod the firing ranges of that 20mm cannon

i can see alot of attacks being made head-on at the betty

F19_Olli72
05-06-2005, 06:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
Sorry, a bit OT, but anyway:

Why the hell did Germans put 20mm cannon in the nose of He111 and not in dorsal or at least ventral position? Did they fear head on attacks so much or what? Plus it can be turned only down, not much up...

AFAIK He111s and Ju88s often strafed enemy during low attacks, that may be the reason... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would think so, that it wasnt meant as a defensive weapon but more as an offensive weapon. I read "Scourge of the Atlantic" about Fw 200 Condor's that attacked ships strafing them with the guns. I got the impression that quite a lot of ships went down that way.

Sad that it never will be flyable :|

JunkoIfurita
05-06-2005, 06:41 AM
Yeah, I believe the nose cannon in the Heinkel was mostly for strafing...airbase attacks with few opponents, supply columns, things like that.

I'm not sure how much actual use it was - as the situations where a Heinkel could afford to be low and slow in order to strafe were few and far between.

----

JG53Frankyboy
05-06-2005, 06:56 AM
german Bombers , like He111, were often down low in the first months of the easternfront war.
hunting columns and trains.
there were not much enemy fighters in the air.

i doubt the Fw200 sunk ever a ship with its 20mm MG-FF , the plan was to make the AAA gunners duck and not to shoot http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

btw, the comming AI controled G4M2 will have also a 20mm canon in its dorsal turret http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
hopefully it will not only be avialble as a Ohka carrier.

JG53Frankyboy
05-06-2005, 07:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
Sorry, a bit OT, but anyway:

Why the hell did Germans put 20mm cannon in the nose of He111 and not in dorsal or at least ventral position? Did they fear head on attacks so much or what? Plus it can be turned only down, not much up...

AFAIK He111s and Ju88s often strafed enemy during low attacks, that may be the reason... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

in real the MG-FF and Typ99 were not very good weapons to arm a gunner position because of their slow rate of fire

Doug_Thompson
05-06-2005, 07:49 AM
We'll see what the game does, but the 20mm of the Betty had a slow rate of fire.

F19_Olli72
05-06-2005, 07:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
i doubt the Fw200 sunk ever a ship with its 20mm MG-FF , the plan was to make the AAA gunners duck and not to shoot http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Read the book, comment later http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Waldo.Pepper
05-06-2005, 09:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">AFAIK He111s and Ju88s often strafed enemy during low attacks, that may be the reason... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's the reason.

They were agressive. Grrr. Like that.

nearmiss
05-06-2005, 05:26 PM
if the Betty is properly damage modeled all you have to do is get a few rounds into the wings roots and that Betty goes like a "Zippo".

========http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif=====http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif=====http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif=======

Simulated Betty - None turn'in two burn'in

LEXX_Luthor
05-06-2005, 06:44 PM
Just thinking that the few bombers we have are early war only, so a proper onlnie match would be early war fighters online (fat chance). Just thinking about how sad it is to hear online bomber pilots facing much later fighters. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VW-IceFire
05-06-2005, 06:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nearmiss:
if the Betty is properly damage modeled all you have to do is get a few rounds into the wings roots and that Betty goes like a "Zippo".

========http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif=====http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif=====http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif=======

Simulated Betty - None turn'in two burn'in </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It is....its lighting on fire very quickly...fuel tanks are between the engines and the main fuselage. Boom.

Gog..
05-06-2005, 08:21 PM
To reply to some of the posts here....

On-line fighter pilots still haven't learn't NOT to attack bombers from the 6 o'clock position after all this time, what makes you think this will change any once the Betty arrives?

As for 'putting a couple of rounds in the fuel tank and setting it on fire', yeah, go for it, it won't set them on fire, unless they are cannon rounds. The Betty can take more than a few .50 cal rounds in the tanks before she goes up.

Also, one very important point I forgot to mention. AI gunners are ****, we all know this, so when testing the Betties rear firepower in QMB keep this in mind. The real thing is going to be a lot more accurate and a lot less prone to stop firing when you are right behind them.

nearmiss
05-06-2005, 11:48 PM
After a couple months experience it's nothing to take down a modified IL2, much less a Betty.

We'll see, eh http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

lucife_r666
05-07-2005, 12:44 AM
IF's and WHENS's lmao. dont look like we are getting anythin for months, even years lol, patch?........... where?.................ohhhh, is it a patch for a void in space..................?
betty is a dead duck

F19_Olli72
05-07-2005, 01:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Just thinking that the few bombers we have are early war only, so a proper onlnie match would be early war fighters online (fat chance). Just thinking about how sad it is to hear online bomber pilots facing much later fighters. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ditto, ive said it before: Brewsters (F2-A), early P-40s and Wildcats are the natural enemies of this Betty. Not cannon armed Corsairs, P-47s or late Spits. But then again....ive hardly ever seen anyone fly Brewster online. Understandable, since its a real experten plane.

Gog..
05-07-2005, 04:49 AM
You are missing the point!

The vast majority of people that are flying Corsairs, Jugs and P-51's are not flying them the way that they were in WW2, so they will become Betty food....be sure!

JG53Frankyboy
05-07-2005, 04:49 AM
Singapore will be the natural huntingground for the Brewster , and there will be lot of G4M http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

masaker2005
05-07-2005, 05:08 AM
Just prey we will get flyable Betty...

JG53Frankyboy
05-07-2005, 05:14 AM
the question is when , not if http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

p1ngu666
05-07-2005, 07:28 AM
i cant help thinking u will be disapointed gog http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

VW-IceFire
05-07-2005, 07:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gog..:
You are missing the point!

The vast majority of people that are flying Corsairs, Jugs and P-51's are not flying them the way that they were in WW2, so they will become Betty food....be sure! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're absolutely right....I start laughing over and over again as pilots attack bombers from a dead six position. Without any closure speed either...its one thing to approach with a closure speed of 400kph in a very high speed dive for a quick snapshot but its entirely another to be on the tail of a bomber with a closure speed of maybe 20-30kph. The tail gunner is going to eat you.

Bettys light on fire just fine. A yo-yo attack using any .50cal armed plane with some good deflection shooting will do in any Betty. Trouble is most pilots never seem to use this technique.

polkku
05-07-2005, 12:28 PM
Look at this picture
http://www.pacific-fighters.com/ss/G4M1_Cockpit_0151.jpg
and you can see why shooting with the bettys reargun is going to be difficult. The bar is almost always at the center of the sight and you can't see if you are hitting or not. Also you will be able to see only the wingtips of incoming fighter until he is VERY close.

FinnBird
05-07-2005, 12:46 PM
After reading Saburo Sakai's memoirs I too thouhgt Betty would be an easy prey.

How wrong I was!

I'd like to hear your tips on how to down a bomber. I have practiced it offline for a some time now, making progress slowly.

I usually get 6 o'clock high, then pull down for speed, when I'm about 700 - 900 meters away.

Then some rolling, maube a slow barrell roll (or something like that) to avoid shots. Then few round from above, not directly, but within the 4 - 8 clock arc.

Some times I manage to attack from the 3 or 9 clock, but I find it very tricky to lead, the size and the speed of the bomber often throw my aim off.

I find it indeed very tricky. I need many, MANY passes, before the bomber gets hit enough. It's about zooming and firing short bursts, seeing some hits every now and then. Hearing his bullets tear the metal under your a**!!!

Downing one without damaging my own plane feels like a great success.

Anyways, how do you do the trick? And how on earth can you choose where to hit the plane? I'm happy to hit it anywhere.

Yog_Shoggoth
05-07-2005, 09:54 PM
The betty was in sevice until they ran out. It saw corsairs... for about 20 seconds anyways... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

ImpStarDuece
05-08-2005, 02:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FinnBird:
After reading Saburo Sakai's memoirs I too thouhgt Betty would be an easy prey.

How wrong I was!

I'd like to hear your tips on how to down a bomber. I have practiced it offline for a some time now, making progress slowly.

I usually get 6 o'clock high, then pull down for speed, when I'm about 700 - 900 meters away.

Then some rolling, maube a slow barrell roll (or something like that) to avoid shots. Then few round from above, not directly, but within the 4 - 8 clock arc.

Some times I manage to attack from the 3 or 9 clock, but I find it very tricky to lead, the size and the speed of the bomber often throw my aim off.

I find it indeed very tricky. I need many, MANY passes, before the bomber gets hit enough. It's about zooming and firing short bursts, seeing some hits every now and then. Hearing his bullets tear the metal under your a**!!!

Downing one without damaging my own plane feels like a great success.

Anyways, how do you do the trick? And how on earth can you choose where to hit the plane? I'm happy to hit it anywhere. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Best attack (for me anyway) is to come in high and fast from either the 2 or 10 O'clock and aim for the cockpit or come in from the 4 or 8 amd aim for the wing roots.

As a bomber is usually as relatively steady target coming in from directly overhead is also very effective.

As for choosing where to hit the plane, that is actually part of the success of the more accurate shooters. Chose where you want to hit the plane before you make your run. If you miss that section, its more than likely that your fire will hit something else on the bomber. Aim at something specific, not just at the whole target.

EnGaurde
05-08-2005, 03:44 AM
yes indeed this is not the given the urban legend claims it is.

its my 2nd favourite QMB. (Next to a pair of Ki84C against many B29 and a few escorting Mustang.)

a p40, or an early Hellcat against a tight box of four Bettys. Or myself and a wingman against as many as i can fit. I dont get clever, I aim at the glasshouse / slightly lead for frontal or centre hits.

i come in following an elongated, bent figure eight, with the betty at the centre and the wings of the butterfly eight extending out to the left and right, as well as slightly in front of the aircraft. The eight obviously stretches out as the betty flies, but should the betty be still this is the path i would follow.

i use the extra ammo of allied aircraft to open fire at about .5, close to .2 in a dead straight line and then pull up and extend to set up the return arm of the 8.

i rarely get hit, but it does take some time to down one.

Ive started on trying it level, and diving away. Tricky but useful for flying aircraft with the whole situation pictured in your mind ie where the target will be when i reach the correct ingress point.

fun. Thought provoking, difficult and rewarding fun.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The vast majority of people that are flying Corsairs, Jugs and P-51's are not flying them the way that they were in WW2, so they will become Betty food....be sure! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
well said. Everyones a mad risk taking ace when we're safe at home.

just how many who think theyre experten would try this with but one, real, life....

im a wannabe, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif , and i would never dare to soil the deeds of those that did this for real claiming anything different from the safety of my computer chair.

Da_Godfatha
05-08-2005, 07:03 AM
I think ALOT of Allied pilots will be in for a surprise. The early Betty`s were like zippo`s. The later ones had self-sealing tanks, not as good as the allied ones, but they had them.

I think most of us did not read past Butch O`Hare`s MOH battle. The Betty was feared as a ship killer over the Solomons. Once the torpedo was dropped, Wildcats, P-40`s and early Corsairs had problems to intercept them.
Onwhine it won`t be a problem, since most servers only have F4U-1C`s and Spitfire Mk9`s and the Omni-potent Whine-0-nine wih the 30mm.

I just can`t wait to be called a cheater when my Betty sinks the Carrier and then punks a couple of Wannabe`s in their macho planes..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

darkhorizon11
05-08-2005, 01:25 PM
If the Japanese sacraficed a little bit of maneuverability for some more armor in that thing it probably would have been the best medium bomber of World War Two...

At least early war scenario anyway.

F19_Olli72
05-08-2005, 01:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by darkhorizon11:
If the Japanese sacraficed a little bit of maneuverability for some more armor in that thing it probably would have been the best medium bomber of World War Two...

At least early war scenario anyway. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was under the impression that the lack of armour and stuff was a tradeoff for long range, not maneouvrability. If it was something the japanese valued it was long range (particularly in bombers, but fighters too like the Zero)

Tobus75
05-09-2005, 02:14 AM
The japanese designed and built this bomber as they did their early-war fighters:
light for good speed, manouverability and range. The forsook good armament and armor for this. the Betty has one bad stinger in its tail, but is otherwise poorly armed. It was able of outrunning contemprary allied fighters after dropping its payload.

I expect it to be a hard target against early-war fighters, but as mentioned here, will fare badly against the new fighters which seem to exclusively inhabit hyperlobby (why?????). Even then, it should be thumped in the nose instead of kicked in the butt, because it's stinger in the butt will hurt anyone trying.

F4UDash4
05-09-2005, 01:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gog..:slightly left
There is a real possibility that in the hands of a decent pilot, the Betty will become one of the most difficult aircraft to shoot down. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So what you're saying is that the Betty will be very poorly modeled with respect to reality?

F4UDash4
05-09-2005, 01:24 PM
I know of no WWII bomber that was designed with maneuverability as a primary concern. Pre-war thinking was primarily that the bomber would out run and/or out gun fighter aircraft, out turning fighter aircraft was not a consideration.

p1ngu666
05-09-2005, 08:41 PM
it was to increase range, makers wanted to use 4 engines but navy insisted on two, and a huge range, so u have a really comprimised and exteme design.

also remmber the armament was standard for a early war bomber, us brits had some 2 and 4 gun turrets, but germany, italy and russian mostly had single 7mmish guns for defense.

and dash4 is right, in 30s before the war, bombers where often the fastest aircraft about http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Gibbage1
05-10-2005, 12:04 AM
One thing I dont see is yall forget the Betty had a "wet" wing. That means the entire wing was a fuel tank. If you hit the wing, you hit a fuel tank. Also that Japanese aluminum had a high mixture of magnezium in it, and was very weak and brittle. This all spelled disaster for Betty crews. Watch some guncam footage. You will be amazed.

F19_Olli72
05-10-2005, 04:21 AM
I've been looking for this interview for a while but lost the link.

http://www.microsoft.com/games/combatfs2/articles_foss.asp

Joe Foss about Betty:

"Interviewer: In the book you talked about the Mitsubishi Betty bomber. I have read a lot that the Betty was this thing that was easily blown up, but you actually have high praise for the bomber.

Joe Foss: The thing doesn't seem to blow up that easy.

Interviewer: Can you tell me what it was like to intercept and attack the Betty?

Joe Foss: Well, the Betty was a tougher airplane to knock down than a Zero. They weren't the same class at all. It was a good airplane for what they used it for. It was fast, and you see they came in there and we were having a tough time getting up where they were. They cruise in there and of course if they nosed over, you never did catch them. They just left you back there sucking air. I had to give them a good rating, with the Betty. "