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View Full Version : Is revenge really improving this game ??



We.the.North
07-21-2018, 01:06 AM
Honest question.

I know some are concerned about the "deathball" problem, but is buffing revenge really the right solution ??

I know I have very poor reflexes and can barely block / parry attacks. I can however dodge very well, but that doesn't give me any revenge point. Out of maybe 20 games, I proc revenge once. As a result, I am very salty about revenge in this game, I think it gives an unfair advantage to people with a good computer (more frames to react and block / parry) and turtle gameplay.

- Revenge procing in 1v1 infuriates me.

- Playing the whole "Feint attacks to bait opponent's revenge activation" breaks my immersion and is just dumb.

- Revenge procing when I guardbreak someone (and before I land my heavy attack) infuriates me.

- Revenge "permanent hyperarmor" negating half of some heroes' kit using bashes infuriates me.

- Revenge "permanent hyperarmor" allowing my opponent to guardbreak me through my attacks infuriates me.

- My opponent procing Revenge twice or more while being ganked infuriates me. (we have to deal 350+ damage)


I think something else should be done about Deathball and revenge should be removed from the game. Revenge cast a bad shadow that more than cover the little good (fun) it creates in this game.

Remove. Revenge. From. The. Game.

Remnancy1
07-21-2018, 02:58 AM
Yes let us go ahead and remove any pretense of skill and strategy in 4v4 and ensure that deathballing is the only possibly viable way to play

DefiledDragon
07-21-2018, 03:00 AM
Nah. I just revenge killed 3 guys in dominion and it felt awesome (activated revenge twice during the fight). If they were going to change it then I would say that you should only accumulate revenge if you're being attacked by more than one person at a time so it can't be abused in 1 v 1's, but for getting out of a gank it's great.

We.the.North
07-21-2018, 03:06 AM
(activated revenge twice during the fight)

So you had 360 hp. Sounds fair to you ??

You even got to proc that ******** twice. I'm so sick of that mechanic.

DefiledDragon
07-21-2018, 03:12 AM
So you had 360 hp. Sounds fair to you ??

I said it was awesome, I didn't say it was fair :P

I activated it, managed to take one guy out, carried on defending until I could activate it again then I killed the other two. In all fairness, I had to block attacks from all directions from 3 different people without dying and let's not forget that you take damage whilst blocking, so it's not a guaranteed win.

It doesn't last forever and while your attacks can't be interrupted they can still be blocked or parried, you can still be GB, you can still be ledged. The most powerful thing about it imo is that it auto parries and knocks people over when you activate it as you're being attacked. That's how I managed to kill the first guy, when he was knocked over I got a hit in that killed him.

There were plenty of times in the match where members of their team were outnumbered and still were killed by two or three of us when using revenge so it's not a win button by any means.

We.the.North
07-21-2018, 04:08 AM
So overall, you still think the benefit of revenge outweights the downsides ??

To me, the salt from always facing revenge opponent far outweights the very few time revenge is useful to me.

voiddp
07-21-2018, 05:32 AM
Yes I here think that new revenge makes everything more interesting.
It is totaly not some kill everyone button and you can die very fast if people ganking you know what they are doing. But also gives you a chance to fight. As example I never can win 2vs1 or 3vs1 like guy above, but totally can prolong my death somewhat. And maybe my teammates come.
But in comparison with previous situation in dominion it is now a lot less frustrating then it was.

And deathballing is a lot more stupid and frustrating for everyone. Revenge helps with that.

Also my next point. What even the thing with revenge in 1vs1 fights in dominion? On my level of skill for these 2 weeks after revenge changes I never saw anything like this. It only activates in 2/3/4 vs1. Both for my and enemy team. And I play a bit more than average and every day.
So I totally think these new topics about 1vs1 revenge is just some sort of divertion thing from deathballers who have their very frustrating type of play somewhat ruined.
And I totally hope that devs will ignore it.Revenge is now where it need to be.

Darkmight_cz
07-21-2018, 07:05 AM
Yes I here think that new revenge makes everything more interesting.
It is totaly not some kill everyone button and you can die very fast if people ganking you know what they are doing. But also gives you a chance to fight. As example I never can win 2vs1 or 3vs1 like guy above, but totally can prolong my death somewhat. And maybe my teammates come.
But in comparison with previous situation in dominion it is now a lot less frustrating then it was.

And deathballing is a lot more stupid and frustrating for everyone. Revenge helps with that.

Also my next point. What even the thing with revenge in 1vs1 fights in dominion? On my level of skill for these 2 weeks after revenge changes I never seen anything like this. It only activates in 2/3/4 vs1. Both for my and enemy team. And I play a bit more than average and every day.
So I totally think these new topics about 1vs1 revenge is just some sort of divertion thing from deathballers who have their very frustrating type of play somewhat ruined.
And I totally hope that devs will ignore it.Revenge is now where it need to be.

I agree that revenge is completely fine right now. Vs skillful opponents gives you only some time to live longer and w8 for help and vs branless spaming morons (deathballs) its even better. Ppl don't realize how to fight guy under revenge and that's where all salt come from. I can only say to those guys constantly spaming attacks... guys that's not the way how to beat skillful opponent under revenge -you have to use your brain 😉

Siegfried-Z
07-21-2018, 10:53 AM
In my opinion revenge should not even be in the game..
This mechanic is stupid.

Remnancy if for you removing revenge is equal to remove skills you should think again about what is skill. .

Killed opponents thanks to revenge is not the same things.

HazelrahFirefly
07-21-2018, 11:09 AM
They can remove Revenge only AFTER they fix deathballing.

At the very least though Revenge should never proc in a 1v1 fight - NEVER. The bar can fill, and the moment a second opponent targets you and swings you can hit it.

Lord_Cherubi
07-21-2018, 11:34 AM
I think revenge is in a pretty good spot right now except for 1v1, that just doesnt make any sense to me. It's not a huge issue but why should someone get rewarded for getting their *** beaten by a better player?

Halvtand
07-21-2018, 01:07 PM
I know some are concerned about the "deathball" problem, but is buffing revenge really the right solution ??

Very good question. But to answer it we must first separate the act of ganking (outnumbering a single opponent) from using the deathball tactic (ignoring objectives and employing ganking as a strategy). As a way to "fix" the deathball problem I (and many others) have already found solutions that does not involve revenge, but instead a change in how score is earned to incentivice people to break up and not just run together. Link to my own thread on that here (https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1903053-Two-simple-solutions-to-make-Dominion-an-objective-focused-mode).

Ganking on the other hand was found to be a problem in this game even before it was released. If you are facing multiple attackers you can die extremely quickly, and not just because they can land multiple hits and kill you through doing damage, but this game features a stunlock on evasive manoeuvres, meaning that once you are engaged in a 1vx you can't really get out of it, and if you try you will be hit, stunlocked and dead. Some heroes with great evasion such as some assassins may successfully attempt this though, if timed right, and may make it out of the fight because of their greater than average movement speed. However, what can a hero like Shugoki do?
As the game is right now I feel like revenge as a concept is needed. Something must allow an outnumbered opponent to fight back or get out of there. I will get into detail about this later.

I know I have very poor reflexes and can barely block / parry attacks. I can however dodge very well, but that doesn't give me any revenge point. Out of maybe 20 games, I proc revenge once. As a result, I am very salty about revenge in this game, I think it gives an unfair advantage to people with a good computer (more frames to react and block / parry) and turtle gameplay.

I think this is a very good explanation on your part of your dislike of the mechanic stemming from a general feeling of inability. Nice insight and honesty. Props to you for this.
With that said, the "more frames"-argument has been met in the console vs PC-discussion several times and long story short the amount of frames doesn't really impact the game as much as controller/screen lag, connection and server stability and other factors. I believe that the difference between 30 fps and 60 fps is 33ms added to reaction, which is about 1/10 of a normal persons reaction time. In other words, not something that will impact the game in a noticeable way.

- Revenge procing in 1v1 infuriates me.

This is a core argument in the anti-revenge camp. As a concept devoid of context I tent to agree, in a 1v1-scenario revenge shouldn't typically be a factor.
However, we know what fuels revenge, we have stats on how much revenge is gained by using cc's, we know that spamming attacks and hoping for the best will give revenge. My reply is usually this: Play smarter.
Don't rely on cc's in 1v1. Don't spam. Then you won't fuel revenge that much. Take a step back and reset the fight to neutral for a few secs to let the enemy's revenge meter cool down about halfway through the fight.
We know what fuels revenge, and if you do use these tactics you need to also be prepared to face the consequences of your actions.

- Playing the whole "Feint attacks to bait opponent's revenge activation" breaks my immersion and is just dumb.

I wholeheartedly agree. However, the alternative would be that revenge activates automatically, which would be a whole new mess of bad and would take away the strategic value of revenge as a concept.

- Revenge procing when I guardbreak someone (and before I land my heavy attack) infuriates me.

You can feint that attack if you believe your enemy will activate rev.

- Revenge "permanent hyperarmor" negating half of some heroes' kit using bashes infuriates me.

CC's still affect, GBs still take, attacks still land. The only thing is that you're supposedly immune to these things while performing an attack. i say supposedly because I have anecdotal evidence for the opposite, but that is irrelevant.

- Revenge "permanent hyperarmor" allowing my opponent to guardbreak me through my attacks infuriates me.

This can happen. But GB's does not count as an attack and any team mate of yours can launch an attack and knock the guy out of it.

- My opponent procing Revenge twice or more while being ganked infuriates me. (we have to deal 350+ damage)

A continuation of the first point. We know what fuels revenge.
Do all of you really need to be there and on this guy at the same time? Isn't there anything else that could be done? The thing is that this guy alone is holding up your team, allowing his team to do other stuff. Play smarter.

I think something else should be done about Deathball and revenge should be removed from the game. Revenge cast a bad shadow that more than cover the little good (fun) it creates in this game.

Something else should be done about the deathballs, agreed.
I also agree that revenge as it is now is not a good mechanic. Revenge should not allow a hero to become a killing machine (We're looking at you PK).
There was a quote from an old interview with one of the devs (I can't find it right now) that stated that the point of revenge was to allow the player to survive a little while longer. My interpretation would be that revenge should not be a mechanic that allows you to turn a fight, or finish a fight that up til now wasn't going your way. It was supposed to let you either stay in the fight for a few more seconds (hopefully until your friends can come and help you) or allow you to get away.
As such revenge should be about boosting the playerís defensive capabilities, not the offensive ones. Instead of a damage boost revenge should give a speed boost (aiding an escaping player to get away from the attackers). There is also an argument to be made for immunity to GBís and hitthrows (from Shug, Shaman, Raider, WL and so on).

Vakris_One
07-21-2018, 01:15 PM
I don't really have a problem with revenge, I think it just needs to be balanced a bit better. It shouldn't be removed because it plays a part in the strategy of a gank. If you remove revenge you basically give all the team modes away freely to the deathball meta - which is like going from one extreme to the other. Not good game design either way you swing it.

What should be done is revenge should be carefully tweaked rather than hitting it with the big buff or nerf hammer like the devs have been fond of doing.

1) Revenge in a 1v1 should not be possible, period. You can build it up, that's fine but you shouldn't be allowed to activate it if you're only being hit by a single opponent. Only at the point where a second opponent hits you should revenge become unlocked for activation.

2) Revenge gear builds should be toned down so you cannot keep activating revenge every 5 seconds. Or change the mechanic so that every subsequent revenge activation in a single engagement comes with diminishing returns on both the attack and defense buff. So the longer you drag out a gank via revenge farming the more likely it becomes that they will overwhelm you eventually. This in my opinion is better than the current meta of crutching on revenge for a near infinite source of defense shields which you can use to indefinitely delay a gank from killing you.

Revenge doesn't need to be deleted it just needs to be balanced properly. Something the devs have been shirking away from doing.

HazelrahFirefly
07-21-2018, 01:25 PM
I think the activation timer should be extended per each gain in a match. Or rather, have Revenge on a cooldown even in 4v4s just like feats. Use it against a gank, and then you build up the bar, but have to wait a minute or whatever until it can be used again, BUT it also doesn't go away so long as the player stays 'in combat'

Baturai
07-21-2018, 03:03 PM
What doesnt help is the Bash and Unblockable property ! there is either a feat nor a gear stat which can counter that.. which in my Opinion is Very Very Stupid.

Revenge is not always the best Solution

Devils-_-legacy
07-21-2018, 03:22 PM
I like revenge when it rewards you for playing well but I don't like someone gaining revenge from being hit. Its one of the few counters to the gank with the health increase it actually gives you a chance(a small one) if they remove it they need to give you a solution to gank then team cooperation because 4 randoms are never going to communicate as well as a premade

Knight_Raime
07-21-2018, 04:48 PM
I feel like I would like revenge more as a mechanic if it was buffed/changed so it only enabled stalling rather than letting people drop buckets of damage in 2 hits. Like I understand that it's not typical for someone to proc revenge and then proceed to kill everyone ganking him. But I'm not fond of the idea that it can even happen. I like the idea that you're given one last harah to try and hold out until someone comes to aid or to try to take one guy or 2 guys with you. It's just not done right.

UI wise enemies need to be able to see the revenge meter. And some sort of visual que/audio que needs to be given once someone pops revenge that way their allies can know "oh fudge my ally is on his last legs." Revenge would have to be changed to be a stall rather than a damage enabler. and we'd need to address scoring in dominion to discourage death balling. (not to mention feats need to be overhauled and probably just unlocked at match start.)

Sneakly20
07-21-2018, 06:26 PM
I feel like I would like revenge more as a mechanic if it was buffed/changed so it only enabled stalling rather than letting people drop buckets of damage in 2 hits. Like I understand that it's not typical for someone to proc revenge and then proceed to kill everyone ganking him. But I'm not fond of the idea that it can even happen. I like the idea that you're given one last harah to try and hold out until someone comes to aid or to try to take one guy or 2 guys with you. It's just not done right.

UI wise enemies need to be able to see the revenge meter. And some sort of visual que/audio que needs to be given once someone pops revenge that way their allies can know "oh fudge my ally is on his last legs." Revenge would have to be changed to be a stall rather than a damage enabler. and we'd need to address scoring in dominion to discourage death balling. (not to mention feats need to be overhauled and probably just unlocked at match start.)

Iíve always agreed is should be defensive only. It should help you survive not overpower. If you outplay them by skill then the health will give you that chance. Not by making you a walking siege engine.

On a side note Raime there is an indicator on the blue emblem of your allies. Itís a feint yellow when they have it and it flashes when they activate it. It also shows when they are critical.

SenBotsu893
07-22-2018, 09:49 AM
you can tell what kind of person is posting in this thread by what they say.


"why is there revenge in 1v1? "i dont want to have to actually fight and just use my cheap moves" -> i only use bashes to get all my free damage person

"revenge is too strong it takes way too long for me and my 3 teammates to gank a single enemy" -> i only gank and run away from even fights person

"revenge doesnt help i activated revenge and still died." -> i run into 4 man deathsquads alone and pay the price person.



on a serious note though. revenge is just a temporal boost. you can just turtle up for like 10 seconds and then continou.

but every professional gankteam knows how to use openings to disable a revenged fighter.
if the outnumbered attacks one of the gankers then he gets a hit into the back by the second or third.
if the outnumbered parries a ganker then the second or third ganker can get a free gb duriong the end of the parry animation.
if the outnumberd dodges an external bash its a free gb from another ganker and so on and so forth.

then there are heroes that excell at neutralizing revenge: All of the disablers have moves that render the revenged helpless regardless of his extra shield: Raider stampede charge, Valkyrie shield tackle, Lawbringer Impaling charge and longarm, shaman mercy, Centurion unbalance and snare effect, gladiator toestabs the list goes on.

the reason gankers loose to a single revenged enemy is because they make mistakes in handling the situation. in the current game state it should be virtually impossible to win a 1v2 but i know that i can handle 2 enemys at once if i play my cards right. 3 at once is only possible if you stall long enoug for teammates to join in to even the odds. and handling 4 enemys at once is really unlikely unless they mess up theire chances really bad.

Arekonator
07-22-2018, 01:57 PM
Allow me to see the enemy revenge bar under his stamina bar. Provide me the information i need to make correct decisions in playing around it. Further balancing can come after that.

Helnekromancer
07-22-2018, 04:42 PM
Just bait out the Revenge with a feint and back away until the Revenge is gone simple as that. Why do people act like they can't do this everyone can feint a heavy? There's an indicator that flashes letting you know the guy has full meter and might pop Revenge.

They can GB through your attacks so the only way to counter it is to stop swinging and defend yourself until the Revenge meter is gone.

I see this happening more and more in 4v4s the guy getting ganked pops Revenge, everyone stands back, and once its gone the dude dies. And if they don't back away they just spam their "Bashes" so he doesn't hit anyone while in Revenge.

If you remove Revenge, people might as well put the controller down when they are getting attacked by more than one person.

DefiledDragon
07-22-2018, 04:59 PM
I've been finding that many people who pop revenge get completely reckless and end up dying in no more than about 10 - 15 seconds. Occasionally you'll get somebody that continues to defend and fight well and they tend to last a bit longer, or even win, but you can tell that some people see it as a win button and think it makes them invincible and they always end up paying the price. I think it's fine as it is. Good players can come out on top (not always), reckless players end up punished. Isn't that how it should play out?

Helnekromancer
07-22-2018, 05:06 PM
I've been finding that many people who pop revenge get completely reckless and end up dying in no more than about 10 - 15 seconds. Occasionally you'll get somebody that continues to defend and fight well and they tend to last a bit longer, or even win, but you can tell that some people see it as a win button and think it makes them invincible and they always end up paying the price. I think it's fine as it is. Good players can come out on top (not always), reckless players end up punished. Isn't that how it should play out?

Haha yea they pop it and think they unlocked Super Saiyan mode when if fact all they did was hit Kaio Ken.