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bannex19
07-18-2018, 01:02 AM
Soft feints have ruined this game, they should cost a ton of stamina. Kensei and shaman are the worst offenders. Remove soft feints, they offer no compelling gameplay, just unpredictable, unreactable spam fest.

jmac70
07-18-2018, 01:07 AM
Not true. You would rather have no soft faints? that means the fighting won't be as fluent and the combat would be more clunky. I think I sense some salt here everyone

bannex19
07-18-2018, 01:18 AM
Soft feints require no skill to pull off. You should have to input all feints. Soft feints shouldn't be removed, they should be costly like zone.

SpaceJim12
07-18-2018, 09:50 AM
Soft feints require no skill to pull off. You should have to input all feints. Soft feints shouldn't be removed, they should be costly like zone.

Well, I compared somewhere here, how new soft feints and old feints works. Old feints are mostly hard feints at first. So require one more button to do. Soft feints were good, when started. Like HL soft feint opener. But with reworks, new chars...soft feints become to easy to do. Kensei pommel strike is just push gb button after heavy! Too easy, too fast. Same with Shaman soft feints.
But I see even more soft feints from upcomming characters, so I don't think Ubi will change it.

Knight_Raime
07-18-2018, 09:50 AM
You've peaked as a player and seek to blame the game rather than your own short comings. Soft feints are reactable. Just like 90% of the things in the game are.
There are also no skillful inputs in the game. You're just trying to fluff your non existent point. You're just raging.

SpaceJim12
07-18-2018, 10:34 AM
There are also no skillful inputs in the game.

Still, you have to know timings to do Shinobi combo with kneeled, and it's require 6 buttons input. Maybe not so skillful for Shino mains, but still need some work. HL Caber Toss need some hard inputs.
Kensei pommel strike just ask you to spam GB button after heavy animation started. Same with Conq shield bash instead of heavy. This moves shouldn't be that easy, or should require a lot of stamina, I agree with OP here.

Alustar.
07-18-2018, 11:02 AM
Without soft feints we go back to a horribly defensive style that we saw at the beginning. Soft feints exist to enable aggressive play styles. As Raime said, they are countered easily enough with practice. When I fight players of higher rep, even my shaman soft feints only go so far.

Arekonator
07-18-2018, 11:07 AM
Literally entire game is just pressing buttons. Making overly complicated inputs for pretty simple moves serves no practical purpose. Now you could argue that some soft feints are too fast or strong or whatever, but you chosen kensei, which is entirely reactable by even mediocre players and only time when he trips you up is when you try to parry every single indicator. Gets the point across pretty well.

SpaceJim12
07-18-2018, 11:44 AM
Now you could argue that some soft feints are too fast or strong or whatever, but you chosen kensei, which is entirely reactable by even mediocre players and only time when he trips you up is when you try to parry every single indicator. Gets the point across pretty well.

Well, maybe I'm on a very bad level of play now, but 80% of players I met can't dodge pommel strike. Sure if I will spam it again and again, they will.
I never said it's unreactable or something. Just said, that I understand why OP made this thread.
And I think, that if some chars have this kind of softfeints now, why can't everybody? If you try heavy>cancel>shove on LB I think 80% of people will dodge it. Why LB can't have same softfeint? I want start heavy and than just spam GB bitton to instant shove. I could guarantee, that noone will like it except LB mainers.
Sometimes people here don't want to see whole picture, just come to some threads to be arrogant with someone, who not played this game every day since launch and used to count every ms in every attacks.

Arekonator
07-18-2018, 12:14 PM
Well, maybe I'm on a very bad level of play now, but 80% of players I met can't dodge pommel strike. Sure if I will spam it again and again, they will.
I never said it's unreactable or something. Just said, that I understand why OP made this thread.
And I think, that if some chars have this kind of softfeints now, why can't everybody? If you try heavy>cancel>shove on LB I think 80% of people will dodge it. Why LB can't have same softfeint? I want start heavy and than just spam GB bitton to instant shove. I could guarantee, that noone will like it except LB mainers.
Sometimes people here don't want to see whole picture, just come to some threads to be arrogant with someone, who not played this game every day since launch and used to count every ms in every attacks.
OP said in very first post that its "unreactable and unpredictable".
Most reworked characters DO have some kind of softfeint, bringing LB into this means you are comparing pre-rework and post-rework characters, which is wrong for obvious reasons.
And for the record, i think most people would be more than happy if LB got heavy>shove soft feint instead of blockshove.

Alustar.
07-18-2018, 01:15 PM
At my level of play I catch more players off guard with a hard feint than I do a soft feint. Without soft feints, many attacks would just become parry bait.

SpaceJim12
07-18-2018, 01:57 PM
At my level of play I catch more players off guard with a hard feint than I do a soft feint. Without soft feints, many attacks would just become parry bait.

I really see not so many people, who parry right now. Sometimes someone parry accidentally, sometimes with phenomenal prediction, but most of common fights now works only on blockes. In season 4 you could catch a lot people off guard with HL's Celtic Curse softfeint. Now almost everyone block it, and someone parry. Bers feint spam make people paranoid, as well as many soft feints from Shaman. It's better block, until opponent loose all his stamina. Noone attempt the parry, if not know pattern or not sure this attack is not feintable. Do heavy from neutral without feint nowadays just stupid.
I'm not complaining it all, but I really think this one sided way of play is not a good thing. Everyone complained about defensive meta, now we have fast attacks and feints. Simple heavy lost it's sense, everyone use for fienting. I don't like feints, cause it's most unrealistic mechanic in this game. I think reflex guard, Wardens CC and deflects could be better solution for Defensive Meta. But it's only me. I'm ok with guys who cancel everything they do, and you just watch them and think "Come on! We don't have all day for this". Remember this stupid situation on Den in the end of season five. Where two players (pro, I think) demonstrate Arenas maps. One of them do a Guardbreak and than side heavy on Shaman, and than cancel it. It's become an idiotic muscle reflex. And I saw funny pictures of two Berserkers in the zone, who just stay in front of each other and cancel-cancel-cancel. And even if someone of them will do light after heavy feint, opponent will block it and do light after heavy feint.
Remove guaranteed GBs and lights, and you will see chaos mess in For Honor.

LEGENDz_31
07-18-2018, 03:10 PM
Soft feints require no skill to pull off. You should have to input all feints. Soft feints shouldn't be removed, they should be costly like zone.

I agree 100% as a life long Orochi (even when they were low tier) I have always had to manually feint into gaurdbreak. Skipping a input seems lazy to me. Let the people control there own fakes and not let some skip a input. The soft freight narrows the gap from a truly good mixup artist and average one in my opinion. On your last point, costing a zone stamina is fine to me because it there is a hefty cost to it.

voiddp
07-18-2018, 03:48 PM
Yeah right, lets make game even harder for newbs to get into. Nice that devs dont thinks that and with more reworks we will see more simplifying of unneeded complications of controls.. AKA softfeints of usefull moves on reworked characters.

SpaceJim12
07-18-2018, 04:04 PM
Yeah right, lets make game even harder for newbs to get into. Nice that devs dont thinks that and with more reworks we will see more simplifying of unneeded complications of controls.. AKA softfeints of usefull moves on reworked characters.

Unfortunatly, game already too hard for newbs. And community show it very clearly. I played For Honor since beta, I started with 4 friends. Now only one still play. Another one try to return, but can't stand a single fight against reworked heroes. He is not bad player, no, but when he understood, how many hours of practice he will need against new Rochi, new Kensei, Shaman etc etc, he just skip it for something more casual. I have 10 people who tried For Honor from season 2 to season 6. 8 of them play only for 8 hours. They just put their hands down after death after death. When your statistic always 1/8 k/d you will never enjoy the process.
Maybe devs don't understand it, maybe some old players don't understand this, but For Honor have no chance to attract a lot of new players. Let's say, they could giveaway 3 million copies during free week. I could bet all of my steel, that 2 million players already don't play For Honor and 500K ready to uninstall it. Game already are to complicated for newcomers. And with new character in October, I think, will be even more complicated.
So, don't worry about newbs. Someone who stayed in the game after 10+ hours, will adapt to any high hard mechanic.

voiddp
07-18-2018, 05:10 PM
I am new player. And i can talk about experience. Got game on free week. Had only 3 characters at start one of them kensei i choose to play.
And yay. i could actually compete with people after few days. Hard feins was something so hard to do in fights with game controls that i could just forfeit game if i didnt have any other options but to get all my hits parried and me destroyed. Default controls suck and dont help. Remaping them after some time and to be even worse with controls for some time was a lot of pain without hard feints concept and one more button.
But thankfully i learned about using softfeints trained to use them, then i got things going and then started to use hard feints too bit by bit, because soft feints helped to get concept and when i need to feints and why. But with ability to fight even without them. And that wasnt after yours 10 hours. around 2 weeks of real time for me and still cant do all i want even after a month and still learning.
So kensei softfeints was my newb helper to be able to play at a bit farther from begining.
All characters need to be simplified and get some softfeints as a tool to have more fluid learning curve for newbs.

And about your friends - they just wanted to play old game with their old skills. And rebalanced and reworked game is different. Its just a fact. So if they didnt want to learn any different and just left - they didnt want to play that much. They left with hard-feints. They left with soft-feints. Its just not their game. How is it soft feint fault when they left even without them.

If you are annoyed that your hard feint skills can became somewhat invalidated by not being able to destroy anyone who can not use them as easily with some reworked characters - its understandable. But also you need to understand that this concept is actually the big part of the hard learning curve for new players. When they cant even start to learn what you know and can use already because of the need to almost play on the piano as controls... And your big difference in skills will still help you a lot, because some things you still cant do with just soft-feinting.

SpaceJim12
07-18-2018, 05:39 PM
I am new player. Got game on free week. Had only 3 characters at start one of them kensei i choose to play.

Well, you pick up most fitable character to learn the game.=) As I said, Kensei have quick access to really fast and helpful softfeints. In a moment, when you learn to Swift Strike and softfeint his very slow heavies into light by simple mouse move and left mouse button push. One of my friend start to play on Warden, but want to play as PK. He bought starter edition right before season 5 ends. When he got PK, devs nerfs her and my friend just can't enjoy game at all. Nice move, devs. Some pathetic looser abuse her zone cancel, but newcomer who like her style become a victims of this nerf, cause loosers will keep abuse her zone cancel with little less profit.
Unfortunatly, we have a lot of smurfs thanks to this free week. I know HOW people could play on average and high level, and I know how new players play For Honor. And when I see rep 2 overall player, who knows everything about his norep char advantages and disadvantages, can counter every move from opponent and feels overall like he live in this game, I understand he is stupid smurf. And there enough of them. Some of thouse ten people I mentioned try to play solo (with me he have to high opponents) and one day have two games, where rep 0-3 guys crush him and his party with no chance to survive. This only one of many factors why For Honor do not attract new players. Don't get me wrong, I like this game, and I want new players, better and wider community. But I see so many reasons why people left. Even we, people with enough skill and playtime sometimes can't enjoy this game, how you expect new player will?


And about your friends - they just wanted to play old game with their old skills. And rebalanced and reworked game is different. Its just a fact. So if they didnt want to learn any different and just left - they didnt want to play that much. They left with hard-feints. They left with soft-feints. Its just not their game. How is it soft feint fault when they left even without them.

I mostly said about newcomers in the middle of game liftime. Thouse who left did it fro their reasons.


If you are annoyed that your hard feint skills can became somewhat invalidated by not being able to destroy anyone who can not use them as easily with some reworked characters - its understandable. But also you need to understand that this concept is actually the big part of the hard learning curve for new players. And your big difference in skills will still help you a lot, because some things you still cant do with just soft-feinting.

No, I'm ok with soft and hard feints at all. I just don't like em as a mechanic. But while parry still in a game, I think devs just don't know who to stop defensive meta. Passive play style still is most safe in a game, even after so much changes to parry and adding this stupid 400ms lights and tons of softfeints. So, maybe whole direction of this process are wrong?

AzureSky.
07-18-2018, 05:53 PM
Soft feints are the only way to open up players on the top rankers, if you don't have that you break competitive for honor since nobody can do damage to anybody and instead they just turtle to get free damage on parry, and the fix is not deleting the free damage on parry cause if you do that you will only see assasins with 400-500ms attacks everywhere and the game will be just more of a light spam fest than it is now.

In other words, soft feints are actually helping you, if you are a parry spammer and not a parry king (that knows when to parry and when not) it's your fault, not of the game.

Knight_Raime
07-18-2018, 06:03 PM
Still, you have to know timings to do Shinobi combo with kneeled, and it's require 6 buttons input. Maybe not so skillful for Shino mains, but still need some work. HL Caber Toss need some hard inputs.
Kensei pommel strike just ask you to spam GB button after heavy animation started. Same with Conq shield bash instead of heavy. This moves shouldn't be that easy, or should require a lot of stamina, I agree with OP here.

Just because some inputs are harder to do does not make them skillful. Making all soft feints on those levels wouldn't change anything dramatically.
Also spamming the soft feint button is ill advised. as delaying your soft feints makes them much harder to react to compared to buffering via spamming.

bannex19
07-18-2018, 07:52 PM
I understand the need and while my original post was poorly expressed my opinion on soft feints is that they should cost more or do 33% less damage or something to counterbalance the simplicity and safeness of the moves. I think variety is the spice of life with for honor and soft feints are interesting but on some characters they're way too safe, easy and difficult to react to on ps4.

Arekonator
07-18-2018, 11:36 PM
One less buttonpress needed doesnt make it radically simpler or safer. Its their whole purpose to flow into different attack faster than regular feint and trip up overly parry-happy people. With two exceptions, all soft feint attacks are 500ms or more, which is really just standard attack speed. There is no reason they should get higher cost or less damage because they are basicaly just like any other chained attack. They can be (and often are) parried and punished like any other, unless you react prematurely. Only softfeints that are legitimately hard to react to are two 400ms cancels on shaman and PK respectively, and they are locked into single direction.

LEGENDz_31
07-19-2018, 11:54 AM
Yeah right, lets make game even harder for newbs to get into. Nice that devs dont thinks that and with more reworks we will see more simplifying of unneeded complications of controls.. AKA softfeints of usefull moves on reworked characters.

You think that soft feint makes the game easier for newbs and it may offensively but defensively I would argue otherwise. I just think you should have to earn the fake out or have a added cost to skipping a imput. To someone else’s point that “soft feinting is the only way to open up another character at high lvs”, I would say to this that not all characters have soft feints and still have to find ways to open up people at high lvs.

SpaceJim12
07-19-2018, 12:37 PM
Soft feints are the only way to open up players on the top rankers, if you don't have that you break competitive for honor since nobody can do damage to anybody and instead they just turtle to get free damage on parry, and the fix is not deleting the free damage on parry cause if you do that you will only see assasins with 400-500ms attacks everywhere and the game will be just more of a light spam fest than it is now.

I metioned this before. And I agree. But in my opinion better to remove parry from the game. Because on real top ranks plays I barely see people, who really try to parry obviouse feintable move. Simple example is Raiders zone to OP. On average play you could kill 80% of people with it. On high level play I assure you, noone bite it. They will wait, while feint window passed, and then parry your zone. Or parry/block your top light after feint. Feints good on average level, sure. But this stupid mechanic makes gunk so nice and profitable. Remove parry is a way better thing. But devs never do it, I think.

Soldier_of_Dawn
07-19-2018, 02:49 PM
I wouldn't say soft feints, in general, are the issue but rather unblockable attacks that have soft feints / cancel options which are known as 50/50s. Those are cheesy mechanics that force defenders to guess correctly to avoid taking damage instead of reacting skillfully. Most 50/50s are easily spammed and are impossible to defend against on reaction because the unblockables can be cancelled at the last moment. The examples include following:

1) The Warden's Should Bash 50/50:
a) If the defender chooses to dodge the Shoulder Bash then Warden gets a guaranteed Guardbreak Cancel.
b) If the defender tries to counter the Guardbreak Cancel with a guardbreak counter or a stationary counter attack the Warden gets two guaranteed light attacks for following through.
Note: If you have stamina, you can roll away but you will use a lot of stamina. A Season 5 Orochi could counter the Shoulder Bash with the old Riptide. The new Orochi's new Riptide can be guard broken.

2) The Raider's Raider Fury 50/50
a) If the defender tries to parry the Raider Fury then the Raider gets a guaranteed Stunning Tap cancel.
b) If the defender anticipates the Stunning Tap Variation then the Raider gets a guaranteed hit with the Raider Fury because he followed through.

3) Kensei's unblockable Top Heavy Finisher 50/50
a) If the defender tries to parry the unblockable top heavy attack then the Kensei gets a guaranteed soft feinted side attack or a guaranteed Guardbreak Cancel if the defender tries to dodge.
b) If the defender anticipates a soft feint or cancel then the Kensei gets a guaranteed unblockable top heavy attack for following through.

4) Highlander's Formorian Kick / Caber Toss 50/50
a) If the defender dodges the Formorian Kick then the Highlander gets a guaranteed Caber Toss cancel which guarantees an unblockable heavy.
b) If the defender anticipates the Caber Toss cancel then the Highlander gets a guaranteed Formorian Kick for not cancelling which guarantees an unblockable heavy.

5) Shaman's Mountain Lion's Power 50/50
a) If the defender tries to parry the Mountain Lion's Power then the Shaman gets a guaranteed guard break from the Guard Break Cancel or even Predator's Mercy, if Blood Trance is active, due to the Dodge Cancel.
b) If the defender anticipates the Guard Break Cancel or Predator's cancel then the Shaman gets a guaranteed unblockable heavy attack for following through.

6) Centurion's Imperial Might 50/50
a) If the defender tries to parry the Imperial Might then the Centurion gets a guaranteed Guard Break Cancel.
b) If the defender anticipates the Guard Break Cancel the Centurion is very likely to hit them with the unblockable Imperial Might as he chose to follow through.
Note: It is granted that the Imperial Might is a slow attack which makes it one of the most defendable 50/50s on reaction in the game but in most cases you need to have read your opponent first if the 50/50 is being applied.


As mentioned earlier, the only viable way to defend against a 50/50 is to roll away only when you have stamina and you're not cornered. However, some would argue that the stamina cost of is unfair in these particular situations. If you have no stamina, then you're restricted to guessing.

Netcode_err_404
07-19-2018, 04:56 PM
I metioned this before. And I agree. But in my opinion better to remove parry from the game. Because on real top ranks plays I barely see people, who really try to parry obviouse feintable move. Simple example is Raiders zone to OP. On average play you could kill 80% of people with it. On high level play I assure you, noone bite it. They will wait, while feint window passed, and then parry your zone. Or parry/block your top light after feint. Feints good on average level, sure. But this stupid mechanic makes gunk so nice and profitable. Remove parry is a way better thing. But devs never do it, I think.

There is a reason, why legendary fighetr games like tekken or SF or the good GG took decades to polish their gameplay to reach almost the perfection.

For honor is just a "jump in, spam r1" game, with no mechanical skill involved, just pick an assassin, spam UB, soft feint it with moar UB's, repeat.

While in others FG you need hundreds of hours to be competent.


Ubisoft has no competence in these games. And I think at this point is pretty obvious, the only thing that i would save about this game, is the concept, and SOME of the animations. Stop, rest is garbage, gameplay is terrible, and the "focus mode" is a joke.


"i play it because i have fun", ofc you can, and should, but don't come here and tell me, for honor is a serious competitive game, or i would assume you are just a troll.

I quit the game in s4, recently installed again just for some centurion/conqueror memes. Im not disappointed.

Alustar.
07-19-2018, 06:48 PM
There is a reason, why legendary fighetr games like tekken or SF or the good GG took decades to polish their gameplay to reach almost the perfection.

For honor is just a "jump in, spam r1" game, with no mechanical skill involved, just pick an assassin, spam UB, soft feint it with moar UB's, repeat.

While in others FG you need hundreds of hours to be competent.


Ubisoft has no competence in these games. And I think at this point is pretty obvious, the only thing that i would save about this game, is the concept, and SOME of the animations. Stop, rest is garbage, gameplay is terrible, and the "focus mode" is a joke.


"i play it because i have fun", ofc you can, and should, but don't come here and tell me, for honor is a serious competitive game, or i would assume you are just a troll.

I quit the game in s4, recently installed again just for some centurion/conqueror memes. Im not disappointed.

Lol, here we have another: "I'm not good at this game, therefore the mechanics suck."
Got news for you, just spamming light is not going to work against anyone who actually had the mechanical skill you seem to think is lacking. I know three players personally off the top of my head who can block light chain spam very reliably. Maybe you should prescribe more instead of whining about how lights are OP?

Netcode_err_404
07-19-2018, 08:30 PM
Lol, here we have another: "I'm not good at this game, therefore the mechanics suck."
Got news for you, just spamming light is not going to work against anyone who actually had the mechanical skill you seem to think is lacking. I know three players personally off the top of my head who can block light chain spam very reliably. Maybe you should prescribe more instead of whining about how lights are OP?

I know my cousine that have his cousine, that can insta win 4vs1 all the time.



Are we talking about skills in a game that has18 characters with 5 moves each one ? Have you guys ever played a real fighting game ? A fighting game needs decade to be perfect, and even then its not.


For hono was just designed bad at the start, and they tried to fix the sh1t they did with a rushed "hero rework program". Its not the right way to develop a fighting game, or at òleast a fighting game, community would take seriously.


if they will keep to do Fh as a FG saga, i won't doubt that in 6-10 years we will have an almost perfect gameplay actually fun to see and play.



Until then keep convincing youselves this is a good game fellas.

it is for the first 30 hours.

Even the tourneys they tried to do, to take the game to an e-sport level, failed miserably.