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Mr.Dr.
07-17-2018, 10:46 PM
So I personally think she's OP but that might be because I'm not a very experienced For Honor player. But I would still say I'm capable.

Anyway my reasons are:

*She has a fast dodge attack*

*For whatever stupid reason she can heal in a 1v1 duel*

*Her bite deals quite a bit of damage*

*Her feints are pretty hard to counter IMO*

I'm asking because I want to know what higher level players think of her? Is she fine? Is she OP? or is she under powered

Darkmight_cz
07-17-2018, 10:56 PM
So I personally think she's OP but that might be because I'm not a very experienced For Honor player. But I would still say I'm capable.

Anyway my reasons are:

*She has a fast dodge attack*

*For whatever stupid reason she can heal in a 1v1 duel*

*Her bite deals quite a bit of damage*

*Her feints are pretty hard to counter IMO*

I'm asking because I want to know what higher level players think of her? Is she fine? Is she OP? or is she under powered

She is currently S or A+ in tier list. She has many mixups and fast softfeints also her tracking of leap is ridiculous not talking about 50dmg +heal and stam bite. So yes she is very strong maybe not OP but very close to it. Damage and heal from bite and also tracking of jumps should be toned down and she will be fine. My opinion

CandleInTheDark
07-17-2018, 11:05 PM
That's some can of worms you opened there lol.

Ok so I have a fairly unpopular opinion, I believe that the game is balanced well above the level of most people who post here or reddit or whatever. This isn't a bad thing nor does it mean that people willing to put in an effort can't handle most things in the game, my belief though is that if Ubisoft are looking at the esport market then it shouldn't be a case of just anyone, and I use myself as that just anyone - I wasn't an elite gamer at eighteen, I am now the other side of thirty, should be able to just pick it up and fight at a decent level with people who are among the best at it.

Personally I believe a lot of what she does is reactable or you can read when a player will go to a certain tool, but I have put in a lot of work using her and fighting against her in the arena, that is the benefit of knowing I am not an elite gamer, I put in the homework if I want to be able to feel I am not a liability in team games. Honestly if you are looking for higher level players, they are more likely to hang out in the competitive subreddit or the discord rather than here.

One thing I do put a lot by is the state of balance that the devs have started doing each season and the win matrix among the top 2.5% that comes with it as this is the level that the devs balance characters around (bearing in mind this was before the last two reworks).

https://ubistatic19-a.akamaihd.net/resource/en-us/game/forhonor/fh-game/fh_duel_winloss_matrix_layers_326344.jpg

https://ubistatic19-a.akamaihd.net/resource/en-us/game/forhonor/fh-game/fh_1x1_pickrate_matrix_layers_resized_326345.jpg

In terms of popularity in pick rate amongst the top players she is very low down, 15th with 3.0%. Now going with the win matrix, I would have to say it is more a case of other characters need bringing to a higher level. Bearing in mind that the devs have a target of 45-55% win rate when they look at overall and individual matchups, at high level play, barring one, she falls below that among the rest of the top six but then she is quite a bully among the lower tier heroes.

You'll get a lot of opinions, I would say a lot of people here will be very much in the negative side of that with a few who know how to play her and read her moves in dissent, personally I don't use her (two reps on xbox, zero on PC which is now my platform for For Honor) and so long as I make sure I have a bit of time against her in the arena, whether in general or against specific mixups, I tend to do well enough with people who play her at my level.

Arekonator
07-17-2018, 11:23 PM
Her ganking ability is OP, no question about that. Because you cant revenge out of the bite.
She is more or less fine otherwise, even though she could use some minor tweaking.

Jrock42_
07-18-2018, 12:26 AM
Some will say yes others will say no. Depends on the player more than anything

HazelrahFirefly
07-18-2018, 02:37 AM
Difficulty is subjective, and so is who you consider OP. I find the Shaman in a nice place now, with two fellas generally consider weak to be the hardest fights.

Helnekromancer
07-18-2018, 02:54 AM
Idk man when I play my Nobushi and Valk against her I can't do ****. Her heavies are faster than my lights so I have to turtle up and pray I guess the right direction her stupid ****ing lunge attack goes. And that's just her spamming her lunge. Is that Shaman being stronger or Old Heroes being crap? Probably both but I'm tired of being told she isn't so I just stop talking about it. It's not like everyone on Xbox doesn't have a pocket Shaman they pull out whenever they can't win a game of For Honor on their main. xD

Darkmight_cz
07-18-2018, 06:53 AM
That's some can of worms you opened there lol.

Ok so I have a fairly unpopular opinion, I believe that the game is balanced well above the level of most people who post here or reddit or whatever. This isn't a bad thing nor does it mean that people willing to put in an effort can't handle most things in the game, my belief though is that if Ubisoft are looking at the esport market then it shouldn't be a case of just anyone, and I use myself as that just anyone - I wasn't an elite gamer at eighteen, I am now the other side of thirty, should be able to just pick it up and fight at a decent level with people who are among the best at it.

Personally I believe a lot of what she does is reactable or you can read when a player will go to a certain tool, but I have put in a lot of work using her and fighting against her in the arena, that is the benefit of knowing I am not an elite gamer, I put in the homework if I want to be able to feel I am not a liability in team games. Honestly if you are looking for higher level players, they are more likely to hang out in the competitive subreddit or the discord rather than here.

One thing I do put a lot by is the state of balance that the devs have started doing each season and the win matrix among the top 2.5% that comes with it as this is the level that the devs balance characters around (bearing in mind this was before the last two reworks).

https://ubistatic19-a.akamaihd.net/resource/en-us/game/forhonor/fh-game/fh_duel_winloss_matrix_layers_326344.jpg

https://ubistatic19-a.akamaihd.net/resource/en-us/game/forhonor/fh-game/fh_1x1_pickrate_matrix_layers_resized_326345.jpg

In terms of popularity in pick rate amongst the top players she is very low down, 15th with 3.0%. Now going with the win matrix, I would have to say it is more a case of other characters need bringing to a higher level. Bearing in mind that the devs have a target of 45-55% win rate when they look at overall and individual matchups, at high level play, barring one, she falls below that among the rest of the top six but then she is quite a bully among the lower tier heroes.

You'll get a lot of opinions, I would say a lot of people here will be very much in the negative side of that with a few who know how to play her and read her moves in dissent, personally I don't use her (two reps on xbox, zero on PC which is now my platform for For Honor) and so long as I make sure I have a bit of time against her in the arena, whether in general or against specific mixups, I tend to do well enough with people who play her at my level.

Yes but those stats are 1v1 season 5 top 2,5% players. I think he is talking about 4v4 where she is really strong especially when she is in team with nobushi, PK, or anyone with bleed or traps those matches is turned into biting jumping contest 😉 also I don't think that 2,5% players is enough to set balance in game it should be at least 10%

Charmzzz
07-18-2018, 08:17 AM
Her ganking ability is OP, no question about that. Because you cant revenge out of the bite.
She is more or less fine otherwise, even though she could use some minor tweaking.

Oh yes, remove all those Cutscenes! Shaman bite at least is interrupted on any hit. Sickle Rain, Stampede, Crushing Charge, Impale, Demon Embrace, all of them are even worse. Delete this sh*t. Or, at least, interrupt on hit!


Yes but those stats are 1v1 season 5 top 2,5% players. I think he is talking about 4v4 where she is really strong especially when she is in team with nobushi, PK, or anyone with bleed or traps those matches is turned into biting jumping contest �� also I don't think that 2,5% players is enough to set balance in game it should be at least 10%

Uhm, in 4v4 Shaman was at 50.4% Winrate among the Top 4% Dominion Players. Pretty low for an OP Character. Lawbringer, Kensei and Raider are the Dominion Gamebreakers...

Darkmight_cz
07-18-2018, 08:23 AM
Oh yes, remove all those Cutscenes! Shaman bite at least is interrupted on any hit. Sickle Rain, Stampede, Crushing Charge, Impale, Demon Embrace, all of them are even worse. Delete this sh*t. Or, at least, interrupt on hit!



Uhm, in 4v4 Shaman was at 50.4% Winrate among the Top 4% Dominion Players. Pretty low for an OP Character. Lawbringer, Kensei and Raider are the Dominion Gamebreakers...

Did I said something about OP or winrates? No. Read my first post in this topic 😉 i am saying that she is really strong in 4v4 paired with another char with bleed coz its constant jumping biting contest which is true mate.

Charmzzz
07-18-2018, 08:39 AM
Did I said something about OP or winrates? No. Read my first post in this topic �� i am saying that she is really strong in 4v4 paired with another char with bleed coz its constant jumping biting contest which is true mate.

I read what you said. And IF Shaman was that strong she would have a higher Winrate among the Top Players because they know how to "abuse" certain mechanics. I don't want to say that she is weak or strong. I just want to point out that she cannot be "OP" if her Winrate is alot lower than 3 other Heroes.

Darkmight_cz
07-18-2018, 09:00 AM
I read what you said. And IF Shaman was that strong she would have a higher Winrate among the Top Players because they know how to "abuse" certain mechanics. I don't want to say that she is weak or strong. I just want to point out that she cannot be "OP" if her Winrate is alot lower than 3 other Heroes.

Ok first I never said she is OP man I said that her bite has czazy tracking and dmg compared how easy this move is. You can dodge it 1v1 but its way harder in 4v4 you can't deny that one. All Iam saying is that she needs slight nerf of tracking her jumps same as zerk in season 1. I have seen many times that jump tracks you even behind obstacles you stay behind pillar a she jumps and flying around whole pillar and hits you and that is really pathetic. Also but I already said that I don't think 2,5% players is enough to set ingame balance. 😉 2,5% is joke it should be at least 10%

Siegfried-Z
07-18-2018, 09:39 AM
Idk man when I play my Nobushi and Valk against her I can't do ****. Her heavies are faster than my lights so I have to turtle up and pray I guess the right direction her stupid ****ing lunge attack goes. And that's just her spamming her lunge. Is that Shaman being stronger or Old Heroes being crap? Probably both but I'm tired of being told she isn't so I just stop talking about it. It's not like everyone on Xbox doesn't have a pocket Shaman they pull out whenever they can't win a game of For Honor on their main. xD

Well Valk is one of my mains Char and i won almost always with her agaisnt Shaman... Nobu yes lights are too slow :/

About the topic.. in my opinion Sham is not OP as when you use to it, every single thing she can do is reactable .. she also has very short range and compare to zerk no HA.

The blood trans is very strong in 4v4 and her Dash are like she is superman but that with zone spamming in revenge are the only things really annoying about her.

Another point is that her moveset is made in a way players that use her really play like savage (stupid very often even) and that makes her very punishable... Really even now most shaman engage fight with a front dash without feinting it agasint Kensei.. then get caught by the side dash and over the unblocable ALWAYS get caught by the most basic feint of kensei with the side HA Heavy and then are mid-life XD

They are too offensiv and then very punishable by many char.. (Kensei, Valk, Zerk, Highlander etc )

Knight_Raime
07-18-2018, 09:46 AM
From a ganking stand point yes. as bleed enables the heck out of her. team fight wise not so much since her allies can smack her out of bite.
Duels she's strong but not absurdly so because all of her mix ups are hard punished with a free GB if you dodge correctly.

Alustar.
07-18-2018, 10:54 AM
So I personally think she's OP but that might be because I'm not a very experienced For Honor player. But I would still say I'm capable.

Anyway my reasons are:

*She has a fast dodge attack*

*For whatever stupid reason she can heal in a 1v1 duel*

*Her bite deals quite a bit of damage*

*Her feints are pretty hard to counter IMO*

I'm asking because I want to know what higher level players think of her? Is she fine? Is she OP? or is she under powered

As a person that plays shaman almost exclusively, I can affirm she is far from OP. Hey dodge attacks are in line with the rest of the assassin classes. Part of the reason her dodge attacks feel overwhelming is due to her feint game. She can flow from any finishing heavy into a dodge attack. Knowing this is the first step to countering that. Her bite, while strong, is also highly risky. It's rather easy to dodge when you know what to look for. Couple that with the fact that it is easily interrupted by external attacks even from allies. Her healing is very minimal, even in s 1v1 and really only there to pressure the opponent into playing defensively. Which is the last thing you want to do against a shaman.

The best way to counter a shaman is to force her to play more defensively. She is a very capable aggressor and if you let her force you into playing her mix up games the chances of survival diminish significantly. My advice is to practice parry timings and turn her best attacks against her.
It's topics like these that are making me serially consider putting together a guide on countering shaman based off of my experience with her, as I see too frequently players with a lot of misinformation.

CandleInTheDark
07-18-2018, 02:37 PM
Yes but those stats are 1v1 season 5 top 2,5% players. I think he is talking about 4v4 where she is really strong especially when she is in team with nobushi, PK, or anyone with bleed or traps those matches is turned into biting jumping contest �� also I don't think that 2,5% players is enough to set balance in game it should be at least 10%

Outside of what Charmzzz said about her win rate, her pick rate indicates that the top 4% don't consider her an automatic pick. She has a 5.2% pick rate, there are seven above her with percentages ranging from 6.7% to 11.6%. At that level it is quite likely that most players are in micced up groups and to have someone following the shaman around to help proc bleed and take the attention off of her so she can land predator's mercy means there is one less to rotate the zones which happens more frequently at that level of play. If you look at the pick rate chart, a vanguard is considered a necessity, all of them are picked more frequently, berserker is by far a more popular assassin pick than both shaman and peacekeeper, then making up the list of those picked above her are a heavy and two heavy hybrids. She might have been more viable if nobushi was still heavily used but nobushi is a soldier lane character and any one of the vanguards and the conqueror can do that job at least as well as her and be used elsewhere. The problem is for Shaman to do well you need to build the team around her and that means losing at least one of the meta picks at that level, two if you use her instead of the berserker.

And I disagree that they should raise the percentage of players they consider the numbers of. Again the aim is not to make a causal game where someone can step in and within half an hour be playing at the same level as the top players and their balancing has to go around numbers that reflect that they are looking to get esport status. They collect feedback from multiple sources, community feedback across multiple channels (off the top of my head I would guess here, reddit, steam and twitch) top players' feedback which tends to come in community workshops, data which doesn't just include the winrates but how often moves are used and successful and through the designers' perception when they see gameplay, so the feedback comes from a wide range of sources but the numbers to be balanced around do need to come from that top bracket of players.

SenBotsu893
07-18-2018, 04:30 PM
to everyone that brings the "bite is interupted by hits".

its still 50 damage for a 400ms ub AND leaves you long enough on the ground for the raider and lawbringer next to her to finish their 45/30 top heavys. same outcome as stampede impaling crushing gank.

and to everyone that brings the winrate argument:

its a statistic. and the low pick rate just says that most people dont want to be a cheap c u n t

Devils-_-legacy
07-18-2018, 04:38 PM
Statics are factual evidence that you can learn from who needs a buff/nurf. I don't think shamans op she's just the benchmark of what level a heros kit should be imo

Darkmight_cz
07-18-2018, 04:48 PM
Outside of what Charmzzz said about her win rate, her pick rate indicates that the top 4% don't consider her an automatic pick. She has a 5.2% pick rate, there are seven above her with percentages ranging from 6.7% to 11.6%. At that level it is quite likely that most players are in micced up groups and to have someone following the shaman around to help proc bleed and take the attention off of her so she can land predator's mercy means there is one less to rotate the zones which happens more frequently at that level of play. If you look at the pick rate chart, a vanguard is considered a necessity, all of them are picked more frequently, berserker is by far a more popular assassin pick than both shaman and peacekeeper, then making up the list of those picked above her are a heavy and two heavy hybrids. She might have been more viable if nobushi was still heavily used but nobushi is a soldier lane character and any one of the vanguards and the conqueror can do that job at least as well as her and be used elsewhere. The problem is for Shaman to do well you need to build the team around her and that means losing at least one of the meta picks at that level, two if you use her instead of the berserker.

And I disagree that they should raise the percentage of players they consider the numbers of. Again the aim is not to make a causal game where someone can step in and within half an hour be playing at the same level as the top players and their balancing has to go around numbers that reflect that they are looking to get esport status. They collect feedback from multiple sources, community feedback across multiple channels (off the top of my head I would guess here, reddit, steam and twitch(, top plaeyrs' feedback which tends to come in community workshops, data which doesn't just include the winrates but how often moves are used and successful and through the designers' perception when they see gameplay, so the feedback comes from a wide range of sources but the numbers to be balanced around do need to come from that top bracket of players.

I got your argument with multiple sources but top 10% of players are nowhere near casual players. Most of them playing since launch of the game. To be in top 10 you have to be really good. Iam currently in top 17 or so and even on this lvl its parry, feint and CGB everywhere and its really hard to break opponent defense. Iam watching top players every day and I dont think it makes much difference 😉 from 2,5 - 10% also it means more data for ubi. If you will take data from top 10% of players still remains 90% as you said "casuall" players man 90% and that's a lot. And quite frankly you really think that FH will be esport one day? I don't think so its a great game no doubt about it but it has too many issues to be esport.

CandleInTheDark
07-18-2018, 05:04 PM
I got your argument with multiple sources but top 10% of players are nowhere near casual players. Most of them playing since launch of the game. To be in top 10 you have to be really good. Iam currently in top 17 or so and even on this lvl its parry, feint and CGB everywhere and its really hard to break opponent defense. Iam watching top players every day and I dont think it makes much difference �� from 2,5 - 10% also it means more data for ubi. If you will take data from top 10% of players still remains 90% as you said "casuall" players man 90% and that's a lot. And quite frankly you really think that FH will be esport one day? I don't think so its a great game no doubt about it but it has too many issues to be esport.

Well yeah there is the argument that more data is always a good thing, and even so we don't know if the data would just be telling them the same thing, so who knows? My argument for a long time is people who believe they are elite level players believe the game should be balanced around them and that if they struggle with something it is obviously the devs' fault rather than they haven't put the practice in or they don't have the reflexes and decision making of those in higher skill brackets. People believing they are elite level get found out in fighting games quickly and that is where a lot of the op talk comes from. I am not talking down to anyone here, I am average at best but I accept that and put in work to make my play better but that is a whole other argument.

I agree there are issues with the game currently but the devs have said they have a multi year plan, they won't get to where they want to be by standing still. I believe that with a little more balancing and if breach mode drops well they take a huge step towards that, Breach is the kind of thing esport teams would take to especially with League of Legends being one of the bigger games on that market and if most of the characters become viable with reworks they already have things in place for teams that play the likes of streetfighter 1v1 with the advantage they can also go 2v2, the latest duel maps and that some 2v2 maps put all players together only make that more viable. Will they get there? It isn't a certainty by any means but if they decide they won't and they shouldn't work towards it then it is dead in the water so they are doing the right thing in taking steps towards it.

SenBotsu893
07-18-2018, 05:40 PM
Statics are factual evidence that you can learn from who needs a buff/nurf. I don't think shamans op she's just the benchmark of what level a heros kit should be imo

another person that doesnt understand what a statistic is.

yes it can indicate wich heroes seems strong/weak but those values change depending on wich parameters you choose to select to form said statistic.

if you would take the statistic the developers were willing to show to us and would change lets say the top 2,5 % of top players to 5 % it would already change the statistic to look completly different from what it was.
or change it so it would show top 2,5 % of console players and 2,5 % of pc players seperatly then you would have two completely different statistics from the very same data pool.

that would be hardly factual evidence now would it?

Knight_Raime
07-18-2018, 06:08 PM
to everyone that brings the "bite is interupted by hits".

its still 50 damage for a 400ms ub AND leaves you long enough on the ground for the raider and lawbringer next to her to finish their 45/30 top heavys. same outcome as stampede impaling crushing gank.

and to everyone that brings the winrate argument:

its a statistic. and the low pick rate just says that most people dont want to be a cheap c u n t

The unblockable is preceded from a dodge making the "react window" easier to spot. But we've been over this.
Yes. all grab attacks allow for deleting.
Yes win rate isn't everything. But the devs pull their overall data from multiple sources. Not just win and pick rate. If she was still legitimately an issue they'ed be doing something about it. The fact that her win rate isn't absurdly high or low indicates that nothing absurd is happening with her kit. and the low pick rate can indicate several things.

It's technically possible that she's still a balance issue despite all standard signs of data saying otherwise. But it's far more likely that the issue at that point lies within the player (aka you) and not the character itself.

Alustar.
07-18-2018, 06:37 PM
to everyone that brings the "bite is interupted by hits".

its still 50 damage for a 400ms ub AND leaves you long enough on the ground for the raider and lawbringer next to her to finish their 45/30 top heavys. same outcome as stampede impaling crushing gank.

and to everyone that brings the winrate argument:

its a statistic. and the low pick rate just says that most people dont want to be a cheap c u n t

This is a perfect example of "risk vs reward". And no, the outcome changes dramatically with any other attack that takes a player out of combat like this. No other character can be hit externally and pull them from their attack outside of death, with the exception of stampede charge, but I've yet to actually catch an enemy raider mid charge. All those other attacks usually come with hyper armor that protects them during the maneuver. Secondly, it's probably one of the easier attacks to dodge. If it is attempted at melee range, skill you have to do is smack her with a quick light and is denied. If it's at range, you can dodge on reaction and you get a free GB, happens to me all the time. Usually the times I get that attack off without a hitch is when I either catch the opponent already engaged with an ally, or off of a throw. Any other time, I run a very good chance of eating a heavy.

As to the pick/win rate, just because you don't like her doesn't mean that anyone playing her is a cheap player. Troll harder maybe?

CandleInTheDark
07-18-2018, 07:27 PM
This is a perfect example of "risk vs reward". And no, the outcome changes dramatically with any other attack that takes a player out of combat like this. No other character can be hit externally and pull them from their attack outside of death, with the exception of stampede charge, but I've yet to actually catch an enemy raider mid charge. All those other attacks usually come with hyper armor that protects them during the maneuver. Secondly, it's probably one of the easier attacks to dodge. If it is attempted at melee range, skill you have to do is smack her with a quick light and is denied. If it's at range, you can dodge on reaction and you get a free GB, happens to me all the time. Usually the times I get that attack off without a hitch is when I either catch the opponent already engaged with an ally, or off of a throw. Any other time, I run a very good chance of eating a heavy.

As to the pick/win rate, just because you don't like her doesn't mean that anyone playing her is a cheap player. Troll harder maybe?

To piggyback off of this, Alustar plays a very good Shaman, his Shaman is better when there is my Peacekeeper or a Nobushi to get in bleeds and keep the pressure on an enemy that knows we are running with a Shaman. That is the point I was making over building a team around her. Now my group we play what we like, if we have a meta pick it's because we like that pick (though it was the Shaman that made me even consider Peacekeeper again after the rework, still, going well enough).

There are two things driving down Shamans's pick rate in my view, Berserker is top five and doesn't flop against the rest of the top five 1v1 as Shaman does and with Kensei being more viable 1v1 than Nobushi and being a soldier lane character picking a Shaman means there is no other bleed team help unless you lose a strong meta pick, two if you include Shaman over Berserker.

MumfordDaHound
07-18-2018, 08:49 PM
As far as her bite, yes its pretty ridiculous with the 50 dmg and sometimes it is guaranteed if you are staggered. Very annoying, but as a visual clue, when you see her jump back a little and puts her weapons away get ready to dodge. Notice if you are bleeding too..