PDA

View Full Version : 2 Changes to Guard Breaking



We.the.North
07-11-2018, 04:21 PM
Problem #1 : Guardbreak is unpunishable on reaction

Remember the Hero Series ?? Not much has changed since. Duels are a massive staring contest of turtles that throw guardbreaks here and there because it's 100% safe on reaction. A lot of mix up potential also nearly always end with a guardbreak because it's 100% safe if countered. It's very boring to watch 2 player stare at each other while spamming guardbreak and some light in hope the light input was just a little before the opponent's next guardbreak.

Solution :
- Counter guardbreaks should stagger the opponent long enough for a light attack punish.

While this solution might make turtle just stop doing anything at all, at least the mix up potential won't "almost" always end up with a guardbreak.


Problem #2 : Guardbreak feeds revenge

At high level of play, you will never, ever guardbreak a player from neutral. NEVER. As a result, the only true guardbreaks you'll see is when a player dodge and attack and gets an uncounterable guardbreak as a punish. In short, at high level of play, a guardbreak is just like a parry. You outplayed your opponent and you are allowed to punish him for it.

Here's the problem : When you parry the opponent, your punish is 100% safe and guaranteed ; When you guardbreak your opponent, there is always a chance it'll proc his revenge and you'll have to quickly cancel your attack and roll away ... SERIOUSLY ?? Anyone else sees a problem with that ?? You outplay your opponent but he's the one getting the potential reward for it.

Solution :
- Being the target of a guardbreak attempt doesn't feed any revenge.
- Countering a guardbreak gives more revenge.

I dont think guardbreak spamming in ganks will be more of an issue than bashing and unblockables, it might bring a little rage, but not much more. On the other hand, the fact you wont get punished for outplaying your opponent negates a lot more rage, thus making the overall game a better experience.

Knight_Raime
07-11-2018, 05:13 PM
Perhaps you play in a tier between me and high tier but I never witness guard break spam in duels. Well, never is a bit hyperbolic..but it rarely happens for me. I used to see it happen on certain characters more than others. The 2 I can think of off the top of my head is Raider and Pre rework orochi. And whenever I watch people I know are high tier guard break spam doesn't really occur. In my experience i've been met with an attack that I can't deal with because I played too predictably.

So for example say i'm playing warden and my standard combo is to go top heavy finisher feint into GB and occasionally I let the top heavy fly. If I do that same combo a few times in a row people get smart and throw an attack when I attempt to GB. Which results in me bouncing off and eating their attack. So I don't think Guard break spam is a problem in duels. At least not in my tier and not in high tier. So I don't think it needs to change.

As for the revenge portion i'm not really a 4's guy but afaik the reason bashes and GB's build revenge meter so fast is because both enable a potential boat load of damage when properly coordinating with a team. If GB didn't generate revenge at all then all one needs to do is wait for the person they're ganking to attack someone and then get untechable GBed and the enemy team can kill them with no fuss.

I think revenge feels like a bandaid solution to the death ball problem. And I think the only true way to lessen that feeling is to retool the scoring in dominion so kills outside of on points basically amount to nothing. That way holding capping and defending points is more important than just killing constantly to gain a massive lead early on.

We.the.North
07-11-2018, 05:24 PM
I'll agree with everything you said regarding duels. I have maybe 80 duels played in 2000+ games. I just do Dominion. My opinion was based on the Hero Series I watched a year ago.

As for GB punish in 4v4, you are also right, it does allow a very, very high amount of damage while coordinating with your teamate. But take note that while I remove revenge gain from receiving a guardbreak, I also propore to upgrade greatly the amount of revenge gain on counter guardbreak. That way, someone spamming GB might not be optimal since it'll give revenge to his opponent if he counters them. I've always been a fan of rewarding proper play, not rewarding just because you are a "victim".

The point was really to remove punishing the "punisher" that successfully outplay his opponent with a dodge + untechable guardbreak.

Knight_Raime
07-11-2018, 05:53 PM
I'll agree with everything you said regarding duels. I have maybe 80 duels played in 2000+ games. I just do Dominion. My opinion was based on the Hero Series I watched a year ago.

As for GB punish in 4v4, you are also right, it does allow a very, very high amount of damage while coordinating with your teamate. But take note that while I remove revenge gain from receiving a guardbreak, I also propore to upgrade greatly the amount of revenge gain on counter guardbreak. That way, someone spamming GB might not be optimal since it'll give revenge to his opponent if he counters them. I've always been a fan of rewarding proper play, not rewarding just because you are a "victim".

The point was really to remove punishing the "punisher" that successfully outplay his opponent with a dodge + untechable guardbreak.

Yeah I can see that. I'm not fond of the "losing but here's a reward" mentality either. But the issue there is revenge is basically just that.
I would say that the counter gb buff you mention wouldn't fix the issue I brought up. That being if they wait for me to attack and GB me when I can't tech it I still don't get revenge.
They could always just tweak the amount of revenge given with GB's in general. and then just potentially give damage reduction to people that are GBed in 4's in some way. Either direct damage reduction or perhaps your damage reduction gets better depending on how many hits you take within a small window. That way Gb's are still very important in coordinated play but it removes some of the insta kill/deleting behavior.
I would also like to think that that sort of mechanic can be applied to unblockable grabs. like stampede or Goki's hug. As both would still be strong in their own right for essentially removing a person from the fight for a fair bit of time. but again not signing their death certificate just by being grabbed.

but idk. i'm not well versed in 4's so I don't feel entirely confident. I'm just going off of my feels from observations and my understanding of things.

We.the.North
07-11-2018, 08:31 PM
Either direct damage reduction or perhaps your damage reduction gets better depending on how many hits you take within a small window.

I like that.

And despite playing Shinobi, who has a 100% - 0% sickle rain combo with help, I also think it's cheesy and leads to way too much damage when help is around. But I also very much hate when my ranged GB procs revenge and I have to cancel my sickle rain to roll away. That pisses me off.

relosaoZ
07-12-2018, 09:56 AM
The problem in ganks
is when you're guard breaked , it's hard to focus and counter it , but when you actually do , you're not rewarded , becuase you're unable to defend

I don't like the first soultion , keep your distance and the opponent won't be able to guardbreak , so you can initiate an attack chain
getting a free light is too much of a punishment , it's not just a free hit , it's a chain starter , and for what? for trying to attack , better stay on defense than - which is what for honor is trying to avoid

when you manage to guardbreak when it's uncounterable , and the opponent is getting revenge , that's part of the gameplay too... focus...
for the opponent as well to reack quickly and activate it
he earned it , it's not a single uncounterable guardbreak that allowed him to revenge

being the target of a guardbreak absolutely should feed revenge - unless you wanna end up with the duel thing problem you mentioned not only in duels
every action has its risks to take into account

WE'RE WARRIORS
NO SHORTCUTS TO VICTORY
LOOK FOR A CHALLENGE NOT AN EASY WIN
LIVE OR DIE
MAKE YOUR CHOICE

I mean
good luck :]

wolfman25br
07-12-2018, 03:29 PM
GB should not have been designed as an offensive tool.

Ideally I would like gb to stop nothing, except for idle.

Should GB connects only turtles? not a dogde, run or as attack (heavy in most cases).

In this scenario the GB Counter would not necessarily have to exist, since GB would play manly the role of destabilizing a turtle.

But many heroes unfortunately have the gb in the mix up offensive ...so yeah there is no fix for this mess.

We.the.North
07-12-2018, 03:31 PM
when you manage to guardbreak when it's uncounterable , and the opponent is getting revenge , that's part of the gameplay too... focus...
for the opponent as well to reack quickly and activate it
he earned it , it's not a single uncounterable guardbreak that allowed him to revenge

That's the problem, he didn't "earn it".

Lawbringers, with 150 hp and revenge gear, will get revenge at least once before dying by just standing still and eating hits. He's rewarded for being a "victim".

Rewarding revenge to people just because they receive hits and bashes is not good design. Give them revenge when they block / parry, when they counter guardbreak, when they dodge bashes. Rewarding the victim is bad.

The_B0G_
07-12-2018, 05:08 PM
That's the problem, he didn't "earn it".

Lawbringers, with 150 hp and revenge gear, will get revenge at least once before dying by just standing still and eating hits. He's rewarded for being a "victim".

Rewarding revenge to people just because they receive hits and bashes is not good design. Give them revenge when they block / parry, when they counter guardbreak, when they dodge bashes. Rewarding the victim is bad.

I agree with you about LB getting revenge from eating hits isn't all that fair, but I don't think that revenge should build in 1v1 in the first place.

So on speaking only in outnumbered circumstances, nearly every hero has an unblockable bash style hit so two or more people can easily keep you stun locked and unable to defend at all, thats why unblockable bashes generate so much revenge.

Back to the GB topic though, I actually made a thread around a week ago about this same issue but I had a different solution. The solution I had was pretty simple, stamina drain on being CGB, how much stamina drain I'd leave up to the devs but I think after someone gets CGB a couple times in a row that they should be pretty much depleted or at least low enough on stamina that they have to step back for a bit to avoid being OOS.