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Vakris_One
07-11-2018, 02:06 PM
Just wanted to ask an official Ubi source; has the NDA on Tiandi and Shaolin expired now that Youtubers have made these characters public? In other words: can those of us who played them in the tech test now talk about them as well?

CandleInTheDark
07-11-2018, 02:10 PM
It would be a good thing to know certainly because there have been a few one sided views put out by the youtubers that no one can legally discuss or refute.

Tyrjo
07-11-2018, 03:06 PM
This is a very good question.

Knight_Raime
07-11-2018, 05:40 PM
As far as i've understood No. Only the people who were given permission to record are allowed to talk about their experiences. I'm not sure if they're able to talk about the two reworks. But they can talk about and and show the tiandi/shaloin and breach mode. As i've heard they didn't pick random people to record it was more so said content creators approached the devs on what they wanted to do and record and the devs gave them the go ahead.

Wes8504
07-11-2018, 06:18 PM
From UbiJurassic on this post - https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1906895?p=13584877#post13584877

"The NDA still stands for all players during the test. However, certain content creators have expressed permission from Ubisoft to upload footage to their channels. If there's no watermark on the screen, then it's approved by us. Otherwise, it's a violation of NDA and should be reported to us."

UbiJurassic
07-11-2018, 06:21 PM
Participants in the Technical Test are still under NDA. As Knight_Raime said, certain content creators were given express permission to share footage from the test. You will know if a content creator was approved if their footage does not contain a watermark on the screen.

CandleInTheDark
07-11-2018, 07:17 PM
Participants in the Technical Test are still under NDA. As Knight_Raime said, certain content creators were given express permission to share footage from the test. You will know if a content creator was approved if their footage does not contain a watermark on the screen.

The issue I have with this is that certain content creators are already getting an OP hate train started on the new characters and will be able to do so freely for three months.

Obviously I read what I signed and respect it. but I feel that this could do far more harm than good.

UbiJurassic
07-11-2018, 07:33 PM
The issue I have with this is that certain content creators are already getting an OP hate train started on the new characters and will be able to do so freely for three months.

Obviously I read what I signed and respect it. but I feel that this could do far more harm than good.

I definitely see your point of view on that. I'll certainly raise the concern up to the rest of the community team.

RexXZ347
07-12-2018, 02:01 AM
I think with the release of these characters they should be allowed to comment of the exploits they have so as the devs can immediately fix them before releasing. Having a strong character on release is bad for ubisoft and it will infuriate the community like what happened to shaman. When shaman was released youtubers also commented on how OP she is and she isn't released yet. And when she was released the community hated it to the point that some players stopped playing for a while.

Mia.Nora
07-12-2018, 02:28 AM
Watching the breakdown on Tiandi he is way too good in comparison to current heroes. Unless we will have a Hero Revamp v2.0 right after Chinese faction release there seems to be no point in playing anything old.

His forward dodge attack beats anything, literally anything opponent might try. It has no startup, no GB window and deflect on it. That light into 2nd light/palm is also broken is attempting to change guard stance will prevent dodge. Even PK 2nd light as 400ms with no other mixup is tough enough, Tiandi can mixup is just broken.

I think I will wait and see what the PvE content will be like otherwise PvP will be something to avoid for a long time to go.

UbiJurassic
07-12-2018, 02:34 AM
I think with the release of these characters they should be allowed to comment of the exploits they have so as the devs can immediately fix them before releasing. Having a strong character on release is bad for ubisoft and it will infuriate the community like what happened to shaman. When shaman was released youtubers also commented on how OP she is and she isn't released yet. And when she was released the community hated it to the point that some players stopped playing for a while.

That's what the private test forums are for. :) Test participants were also provided with a link to send bug reports to the team as well.

Knight_Raime
07-12-2018, 02:50 AM
Watching the breakdown on Tiandi he is way too good in comparison to current heroes. Unless we will have a Hero Revamp v2.0 right after Chinese faction release there seems to be no point in playing anything old.

His forward dodge attack beats anything, literally anything opponent might try. It has no startup, no GB window and deflect on it. That light into 2nd light/palm is also broken is attempting to change guard stance will prevent dodge. Even PK 2nd light as 400ms with no other mixup is tough enough, Tiandi can mixup is just broken.

I think I will wait and see what the PvE content will be like otherwise PvP will be something to avoid for a long time to go.

i'm just going to copy paste what I said in a different thread.

"As far as duels concerned he's going to probably be A tier. A lot of his play focuses around his dodge play. And dodge play is notoriously bad in duels. His actual dodge heavy while having lots of I frames is too slow to punish anything reliably on reaction barring anything that has absurd recovery frames like finisher attacks. There for all an opponent has to do is turtle up whenever tiandi initates a dodge attack and then punish whatever he chooses to cancel into.

Dragon kick? Doesn't guarantee anything in the open. And the spacing has to be perfect when near a surface. So it too like his dodge heavy is always going to need to be canceled. Otherwise people will just dodge GB it since it has absurd recovery frames. Tiandi has decent neutral play in his palm strike and 400ms delayble comboed lights. Though that palm is only doable raw or after a light. if you could do it from his kick or dodge heavy then both of those moves would be more viable. That being said his OOS pressure is strong. Because he can threaten with an undodgable light. And even if you block that you get palm strike guaranteed due to hit stun.
Basically put you're forced to commit to a parry as your only defense."

Or a more blatently put statement. Dodge play does not work in duels. Tiandi will have to sprinkle in his dodge lights or they're just going to get parried.
Orochi's dodge lights are also stronk. Being delayable lets him avoid any GB/bash based mix up. and they're fast too. Yet if you spam those as your auto response to someone you get parried.

The only borderline broken thing about his kit is his OOS pressure.

Mia.Nora
07-12-2018, 05:26 AM
My understanding is that he can soft and hard feint his dodge heavies and still retain iframes. If that is definitely OP in the way that it completely forces opponent to turtle.

His forward dash attack beats anything (seemingly literally anything in the game) that doesn't have HA on it, and it has no startup so can't be GBed either. Way too safe for something that can be just spammed.

His light>light/palm game is probably the strongest mixup in the game with nothing coming close. It is a literal 50/50 since if you attempt to block that 400ms light it means you can not dodge the palm.

Unless changed, he is way better than any other character with maybe berserker being able to deal with him thanks to HA on lights.

Knight_Raime
07-12-2018, 06:36 AM
My understanding is that he can soft and hard feint his dodge heavies and still retain iframes. If that is definitely OP in the way that it completely forces opponent to turtle.

His forward dash attack beats anything (seemingly literally anything in the game) that doesn't have HA on it, and it has no startup so can't be GBed either. Way too safe for something that can be just spammed.

His light>light/palm game is probably the strongest mixup in the game with nothing coming close. It is a literal 50/50 since if you attempt to block that 400ms light it means you can not dodge the palm.

Unless changed, he is way better than any other character with maybe berserker being able to deal with him thanks to HA on lights.

His dodge heavy is too slow to punish anything on reaction and none of the cancels he can go into force the opponent to do anything other than block. The one thing he could soft feint into from the dodge heavy that can force something is the kick. But it guarantees nothing and has stupid recovery frames meaning a dodge gets everyone a GB on reaction. As far as his dash lights go blocking it doesn't confirm the palm unless OOS because of hit stun. Not saying his light speed and palm are not good. Just saying they can't be spammed without threat of being parried until you get someone OOS.

Mia.Nora
07-12-2018, 07:12 AM
His dodge heavy is too slow to punish anything on reaction and none of the cancels he can go into force the opponent to do anything other than block. The one thing he could soft feint into from the dodge heavy that can force something is the kick. But it guarantees nothing and has stupid recovery frames meaning a dodge gets everyone a GB on reaction. As far as his dash lights go blocking it doesn't confirm the palm unless OOS because of hit stun. Not saying his light speed and palm are not good. Just saying they can't be spammed without threat of being parried until you get someone OOS.

I guess disagreement is based on the same reason we discuss every time; you evaluate it by itself, and I evaluate it in comparison to kits and capabilities of other heroes.

His light>light/palm mixup is better than every other fast hero's kit including shaman bleed cancels, or PK and Oroichi 400ms 2nd lights, which are already considered too strong by many. It is 500ms light into 400ms light or palm where if you tried to change guard stance for 2nd light it disables the ability to dodge palm.

And his forward dash light is probably the best top attack in the game since it beats literally every action in the game except HA ones, functions like a CCS because of deflect on it and no startup means if Tiandi goes for it only options is to block. In essence this move is a combination of warden top light with oroichi back dash light; combining best parts of both.

Alustar.
07-12-2018, 11:03 AM
If you weren't part of the tech test, and thus didn't get to try the be heroes, your opinions about their kits are not only invalid, they are inaccurate at best. You cannot make balance discussions at this point because they aren't even live. Instead of using some tardtube idiot who wants click bait videos to increase his streaming revenue to back up your claim, why not wait till this goes live then make an INFORMED decision based on facts and experience. All you are doing right now is flame baiting.

DrinkinMyStella
07-12-2018, 11:31 AM
what was private now isn't, giving access to record and put on youtube to some content creators it just defeats the object, you should have made it so they couldn't commentate over the footage because shmolty, spliced and a few others have already put a video saying how OP the monk is and how not very good in 1v1 thandi is, it should have been kept completely secret for everyone, I know they need to earn money but still now 100s of thousands on viewers have an idea and a expectation of everything coming in October even if you buff/nerf before release. you might even drive players away because they know what to expect, after watching loads of footage I have enough understanding of the characters and the new mode and it makes me feel less excited because I've seen it all now.

HazelrahFirefly
07-12-2018, 12:19 PM
I dont actually think the NDA is going to persist until October. I imagine it will be lifted for the two heroes at the start of S7, and for Breach sometime in September. It will help build hype appropriately.

Vakris_One
07-12-2018, 02:41 PM
I guess disagreement is based on the same reason we discuss every time; you evaluate it by itself, and I evaluate it in comparison to kits and capabilities of other heroes.
The Tiandi's kit isn't OP or overloaded with all the moves in the entire game. His kit is on par with the Kensei's kit except instead of an unblockable chain finisher the Tiandi has the undodgeable trait on his dodge lights. Knight Raime is on point with his analysis of the character.



His light>light/palm mixup is better than every other fast hero's kit including shaman bleed cancels, or PK and Oroichi 400ms 2nd lights, which are already considered too strong by many. It is 500ms light into 400ms light or palm where if you tried to change guard stance for 2nd light it disables the ability to dodge palm.
Dodging the palm strike gives you a free GB, you don't have to sit and wait to block a possible second light. If he goes for a dodge light to try and beat that you can learn to react to this. If I can learn to react to him then so can you.

You can also block his light from neutral thus stopping him from chaining into a palm strike. The palm strike has almost no range on it - less than the Kensei's pommel strike even - so he can't whiff a light and then expect to get you with a palm strike. Just like any other character you have to be aware of what he can do and when and with experience you will learn his patterns of attack.



And his forward dash light is probably the best top attack in the game since it beats literally every action in the game except HA ones, functions like a CCS because of deflect on it and no startup means if Tiandi goes for it only options is to block. In essence this move is a combination of warden top light with oroichi back dash light; combining best parts of both.
Except that Tiandi doesn't use his top dash light in response to an attack the way Riptide does. There is a startup, he has to dash forward for starters and he does an attack animation when initiating it. Just because it is fast doesn't mean it's invisible to the naked eye. It's also not an option select like PK's zone. It's just one of the attacks you'll need to watch out for. Good Tiandi's won't be throwing this attack out like crazy because with enough practice players will learn to parry it just like we learned to parry other character's attacks on prediction.

Mia.Nora
07-12-2018, 03:17 PM
Except that Tiandi doesn't use his top dash light in response to an attack the way Riptide does. There is a startup, he has to dash forward for starters and he does an attack animation when initiating it. Just because it is fast doesn't mean it's invisible to the naked eye. It's also not an option select like PK's zone. It's just one of the attacks you'll need to watch out for. Good Tiandi's won't be throwing this attack out like crazy because with enough practice players will learn to parry it just like we learned to parry other character's attacks on prediction.

What you are saying is not inline with frame test? It deflects top attacks when used on reaction and in test it had no startup; beating any attack and GB. Just the top one to be clear not side ones. This move is essentially a better version of warden top CCS and rochi riptide. I am talking based on frame test, don't forget that the general experience in test server is with people who haven't learned how to exploit him properly so he wont be played at his potential.

My concern is not about his moves being unreactable, but his kit simply offering tools better than old rooster's versions in comparison. I want there to be a reason to keep playing old heroes other than sentimental reasons, because we all know we wont get a second round of reworks for a very very long time.

Vakris_One
07-12-2018, 04:43 PM
What you are saying is not inline with frame test? It deflects top attacks when used on reaction and in test it had no startup; beating any attack and GB. Just the top one to be clear not side ones. This move is essentially a better version of warden top CCS and rochi riptide. I am talking based on frame test, don't forget that the general experience in test server is with people who haven't learned how to exploit him properly so he wont be played at his potential.

My concern is not about his moves being unreactable, but his kit simply offering tools better than old rooster's versions in comparison. I want there to be a reason to keep playing old heroes other than sentimental reasons, because we all know we wont get a second round of reworks for a very very long time.
You have a valid concern but let me explain why Tiandi isn't overpowered based on my experiences of testing him and fighting against him - without breaking NDA of course. If you're referring to Freeze's frame video, it created a couple of misconceptions about the Tiandi's forward dash light that I would like to address:

1) It deflects top attacks on reaction exactly the same way as Kensei's superior block deflect works. The only difference is that Tiandi's top light is faster than helm splitter and doesn't look as telegraphed. You can deflect top attacks on reaction with Kensei with exactly the same timing as you see Freeze do it in his video. Try it out with a friend in custom match.

2) It has no GB vulnerability - I would like to have seen Freeze test this more thoroughly by using one of the old heroes to try and guardbreak the Tiandi. This is because of a reason I cannot mention that concerned both Tiandi and Shaolin during the test. It could very well be that this move can indeed legitimately beat all GB attempts on reaction, in which case it should be looked at. But there is also enough reason for me to question the thoroughness of Freeze's test on this particular move.

Knight_Raime
07-12-2018, 06:06 PM
I guess disagreement is based on the same reason we discuss every time; you evaluate it by itself, and I evaluate it in comparison to kits and capabilities of other heroes.

His light>light/palm mixup is better than every other fast hero's kit including shaman bleed cancels, or PK and Oroichi 400ms 2nd lights, which are already considered too strong by many. It is 500ms light into 400ms light or palm where if you tried to change guard stance for 2nd light it disables the ability to dodge palm.

And his forward dash light is probably the best top attack in the game since it beats literally every action in the game except HA ones, functions like a CCS because of deflect on it and no startup means if Tiandi goes for it only options is to block. In essence this move is a combination of warden top light with oroichi back dash light; combining best parts of both.

Not sure where you're getting the idea that guard switching removes the ability to dodge palm strike.

afaik the superior block that he's getting from his dodge forward light is the exact same in activation time as kensei's superior block on forward dash. Kensei's nets him a GB. tiandi's is a 30? damage unblockable. I'd say kensei's reward is better. Since ledging potential, ability to set up damage via GB for allies, and I believe you get kensei's 45 damage top unblockable if you throw them into a wall. (I know you get this attack I just don't remember the damage number.)

I wouldn't compare it to orochi's riptide because that's a dodge. His light/palm mix up is strong because of the fact that it's a mix up with a bash. But as i've mentioned you can't just spam it. And since it's a dodge based move it's easier to react to than a move from neutral. (regarding his dash light.) I'm not denying it's power. I just think it's managable when not OOS.

Anyway. You're arguing about it being better than most other things currently available. I don't see this as an issue. Purely because this has been the trend since DLC heros started happening. What I think is more important is wether older kits are viable or not. and the reworks (for the most part) have done that. Not saying you don't have an issue. I'm just saying I don't see it as an issue. And it's pretty typical for dlc heros to seem absurd first. then we figure out ways to deal with them after we've fought them for a bit.

SenBotsu893
07-12-2018, 08:17 PM
Not sure where you're getting the idea that guard switching removes the ability to dodge palm strike.



he is most likely refering to the guard switch priority over dodge command with NON reflex guard heroes.

example: valkyrie confirms her second light attack and goes into legsweep. if the opponent tried to block the second light attack but failed, his guard switch will occur after he took the second light and can not initiate the dodge until the guard has changed position. therefor in this scenario valks sweep is undodgeable.

this is part of the game since.... forever.

i think one of the for honor youtubers even made recently a video about this showcasing this exact situation and on some other heroes that have a simmilar nasty confirmation because of guard switch priority.

edit
found it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXrsnU5vUjE

Knight_Raime
07-13-2018, 02:05 AM
he is most likely refering to the guard switch priority over dodge command with NON reflex guard heroes.

example: valkyrie confirms her second light attack and goes into legsweep. if the opponent tried to block the second light attack but failed, his guard switch will occur after he took the second light and can not initiate the dodge until the guard has changed position. therefor in this scenario valks sweep is undodgeable.

this is part of the game since.... forever.

i think one of the for honor youtubers even made recently a video about this showcasing this exact situation and on some other heroes that have a simmilar nasty confirmation because of guard switch priority.

edit
found it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXrsnU5vUjE

I am aware of this. This only happens if you suffer hit stun though. As Freeze shows being hit first. And even then you have to get hit and THEN try to switch your guard. If you switched before you got hit you're likely going to be able to dodge the follow up. And even so there is currently another bug on standard guard heros where if you're spamming guard switch when you get hit you remove the 100ms guard switch recovery allowing you to block follow ups you normally shouldn't. A few standard guard heros don't have this. But most do.

For reference this is why Freeze even mentions the 100ms at the end of switching guards in his video. Because Standard guard heros have a 100ms guard switch delay which prevents them from doing certain actions. Assassins don't have this.

RexXZ347
07-13-2018, 04:49 AM
Idk but by just looking at the video, he seems S tier with all those super fast attacks. 50/50 moves and alot of kicks and palm strikes.

Alustar.
07-13-2018, 11:26 AM
Idk but by just looking at the video, he seems S tier with all those super fast attacks. 50/50 moves and alot of kicks and palm strikes.

First off, you sounds pretty lame. "I don't know guys, this dude must be S tier, dahyuck!" Second (and I repeat) unless you were involved in the test, your opinions about a video made months before content goes live is null and void. You have no experience or knowledge to form a logical opinion. Further more, even if you were in the test (like these YouTubers) your opinion is shallow based on the fact that there was very little time to actually get the feel for them balance wise.

I honestly urge this community NOT to listen to YouTubers in regards to balancers, because these players are not concerned with the health of the game. They are concerned with one thing. Generating revenue through their channel. As such, they use click bait titles and bias arguments to draw in subs and viewers to boost their ratings. That is not healthy, and only damages this already divided community.

SenBotsu893
07-13-2018, 12:00 PM
I am aware of this. This only happens if you suffer hit stun though. As Freeze shows being hit first. And even then you have to get hit and THEN try to switch your guard. If you switched before you got hit you're likely going to be able to dodge the follow up. And even so there is currently another bug on standard guard heros where if you're spamming guard switch when you get hit you remove the 100ms guard switch recovery allowing you to block follow ups you normally shouldn't. A few standard guard heros don't have this. But most do.

For reference this is why Freeze even mentions the 100ms at the end of switching guards in his video. Because Standard guard heros have a 100ms guard switch delay which prevents them from doing certain actions. Assassins don't have this.

no need to explain exactly the same what i already explained to you, back to me. a bit redundant.

i just wanted to clarify what was apparently Mia.Noras concern wich you said not to be sure of what that would be.

RexXZ347
07-13-2018, 01:16 PM
First off, you sounds pretty lame. "I don't know guys, this dude must be S tier, dahyuck!" Second (and I repeat) unless you were involved in the test, your opinions about a video made months before content goes live is null and void. You have no experience or knowledge to form a logical opinion. Further more, even if you were in the test (like these YouTubers) your opinion is shallow based on the fact that there was very little time to actually get the feel for them balance wise.

I honestly urge this community NOT to listen to YouTubers in regards to balancers, because these players are not concerned with the health of the game. They are concerned with one thing. Generating revenue through their channel. As such, they use click bait titles and bias arguments to draw in subs and viewers to boost their ratings. That is not healthy, and only damages this already divided community.

Did you just got born yesterday? Alot of characters who were seen as stron got nerfed. You are just listening to your tunnel minded brain like you are an expert or something which is not. You said that i haven't tested these characters and by just looking i claim my judgement. Ok there is abit of an arguement there. But when you said that even if i have played it and with other youtubers too. My claim would be of no grounds. You're arguement already got no meaning because of your judgement is just one sided with a bias on your tunnel minded brain.

Vakris_One
07-13-2018, 03:42 PM
I can confirm that Alustar exists outside of linear time. Therefore technically he was born yesterday as well as millions of years ago as well as today and he will be born tomorrow, next week, next month and millions of years from now. :) :) :)

Alustar.
07-13-2018, 05:49 PM
I can confirm that Alustar exists outside of linear time. Therefore technically he was born yesterday as well as millions of years ago as well as today and he will be born tomorrow, next week, next month and millions of years from now. :) :) :)

Awaits incoming "nerf Alu thread".
Jurassic, get on it, the devs need to be notified that this character is OP and had the single greatest offensive/defensive tool in the game!