PDA

View Full Version : Does LAGG3(1941) have too many guns modeled to it?



XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 10:58 PM
The FB officially states:

http://www.il2sturmovik.com/games_elts/fb_aircraft.php

that LAGG3 (1941) has 3 MGs and 1 cannon. Still it seems that the plane has 4 MGs and a cannon firing through the propelled hub. Just look at the outside view of the plane and fire the weapons! What is up with that?

Also according to many sources (e.g. the Finnish captured LAGG3 http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/fighters.html#lakki) the LAGG3 (1941) had 1 or 2*12,7mm MGs and 1*20mm cannon. I would like to know what documents were used in developing this plane for this game? I would be glad to get an answer from someone in the development teamhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 10:58 PM
The FB officially states:

http://www.il2sturmovik.com/games_elts/fb_aircraft.php

that LAGG3 (1941) has 3 MGs and 1 cannon. Still it seems that the plane has 4 MGs and a cannon firing through the propelled hub. Just look at the outside view of the plane and fire the weapons! What is up with that?

Also according to many sources (e.g. the Finnish captured LAGG3 http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/fighters.html#lakki) the LAGG3 (1941) had 1 or 2*12,7mm MGs and 1*20mm cannon. I would like to know what documents were used in developing this plane for this game? I would be glad to get an answer from someone in the development teamhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-01-2003, 11:45 PM
LaGG-3s were also equipped with the shvak, 2xUB, 2xshkas loadout that it has in the game. It was just more rare.

Oleg replied to this question before stating that he wanted to model the heaviest armed LaGG model.

http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb06894.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb57471.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb11726.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb75733.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb80477.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb64472.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb59442.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb80347.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb73057.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb48642.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 01:18 AM
Rgr that.

I was just asking it cause the LAGG3 (1941) seems to be at the moment absolutely superior in armanent with planes at its class of 1941-1942. The guns are just devastating. I hope this has been taken into account when they modeled the FM. Cause e.g. in VEF2 at the moment LAGG3s are something that German 109F2s and F4s must fear due to their superior armanent and very durable construction.

Also it would be nice then to model the more usual LAGG3 (1941) with the weaker armanent so that it could be used in online campaigns, it it was more common back then. After all LAGG3 was the Soviet main fighter for quite a while.

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 01:33 AM
im ok with the actual LaGG3 1941, its a good oponent for the better flying 109s of the same year.

im looking more for a LaGG3 1942 ?!
the La5 1942 is more a late42. so we are missing an improved, in comparison to the 41 FM, LaGG3 for the year 42.

http://www.jagdgeschwader53.flugzeugwerk.net/diverses/franky.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 08:17 AM
StG77_Fennec wrote:
- LaGG-3s were also equipped with the shvak, 2xUB,
- 2xshkas loadout that it has in the game. It was
- just more rare.
-
- Oleg replied to this question before stating that he
- wanted to model the heaviest armed LaGG model.
-

this explains a bit, I like this bird because of the firepower (for the time) but always wondered

have the UB also this "magical" bullets like the UBS, travelling two times faster and possibly do two times the damage than they should?



quiet_man

second foundation member of the EURO_Snoopy fan club!

I'm quiet_man, but if I post I post quiet much /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 08:42 AM
Porta_ wrote:
- I was just asking it cause the LAGG3 (1941) seems to
- be at the moment absolutely superior in armanent
- with planes at its class of 1941-1942. The guns are
- just devastating.

It puts out less lead than the I-16 Type 24, and is fairly equal to the I-153P and Bf 109E.

- I hope this has been taken into
- account when they modeled the FM.

One gun does hardly matter.

- Cause e.g. in VEF2
- at the moment LAGG3s are something that German
- 109F2s and F4s must fear due to their superior
- armanent and very durable construction.

From my impression there is no need to fear anything in a F2 or F4 if they are flown right. You can outrun, outclimb, outurn, outdive, outroll the enemy, so why do you keep complaining about the few advatages the LaGG has? (and historically had)

I also wonder if you play FB 1.0 or 1.1b, because the performance of the LaGG decreased drastically with 1.1b.

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 10:37 AM
In regard to your query on guns on the LaGG3 series of fighters. There were a number of minor variations called "series" over the LaGG3's life, with a tendency to reduce the armament, in order save weight and keep the designs performance competitive. The armament on the major series where a material change took place, are as follows.

Series 1 - 3x12.7mm (1 in prop hub) + 2x7.62mm MGs.

Series 4 - 1x20mm in prop hub + 1x12.7mm + 2x7.62mm MGs. Only the 12.7mm on the port side was retained, the other was removed. The first production batch still had the same armament as the Series 1.

Series 8 - 1x23mm or 20mm in prop hub + 1x12.7mm MGs. The 7.62's were deemed as not worth their extra weight. Cannon selection depended on availability.

Series 11, 23, 29 & 33 - All had the same armament as the 8, but more fittings for the close support role.

Series 34 - 1x37mm in prop hup + 1x12.7mm MGs.

Series 35, 66 - Same armament as 8.

As far as I know, only 3 LaGG3's were used by the Finnish Air Force by LeLv32, attempting to intercept Pe-2's. Curtis Hawk 75A formed the other part of this Squadron. Comprising one each of Series 1, 4 & 35. The Japanese also received a LaGG Series 8 from a defecting pilot in the Spring of 1942.

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 10:40 AM
Forgot to add that the ROF from the Russian weapons are very, very good.

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 01:31 PM
JtD wrote:
- From my impression there is no need to fear anything
- in a F2 or F4 if they are flown right. You can
- outrun, outclimb, outurn, outdive, outroll the
- enemy, so why do you keep complaining about the few
- advatages the LaGG has? (and historically had)
-

You are joking with F2 outturning Lagg3 in FB1.1 right?
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

T_Rom

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 02:30 PM
Okay, let me rephrase it:

I can outrun, outclimb, outurn, outdive, outroll the
LaGG-3(41) in a Bf 109F-2 and F-4.

Since I hardly ever fly 109's I probably suck with these planes, but I still outturn LaGG-3.

XyZspineZyX
09-02-2003, 03:16 PM
Funny enough, but with some extra speed to bleed you can outturn some better turning planes but only for so long as you have the smash. If the guy in the other plane does not understand this then he will say you are cheating, but then he is a dweeb so consider the source.

It's also possible to get inside another using higher, lower, or alternating high/low flight paths. Again, if he doesn't catch on then any kill you might make is not a credit to any skill you have.


Neal

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 09:09 AM
LoL JtD..

the pb is not about the turning capabilities of the lagg3.. LOL


you are funny. Of course I can outurn it with the F2.. but this plane is concrete made.. have you ever tried to make damages on it ?

The only way to shoot a lagg3 down is to achieve a PK, because with F2 you wont be able to do any structural damages on it.

when your 15mm is gone, and you have only 7.62 try to shoot at him.. once I scored 400 * 7.62 rounds on a single lagg3 without any probing results..

but if you think its normal.

and btw, lagg3 S4 is very very undermodelled in FB 1.1b you are right.. and sooooooooo funny.



The essence of aircombat is to always try to keep your take off and landing numbers equal!

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 10:59 AM
FZG_Immel wrote:
- you are funny. Of course I can outurn it with the
- F2.. but this plane is concrete made.. have you ever
- tried to make damages on it ?

Sure. I wouldn't post if I hadn't tried before. I took an F-4 and fired with 20mm only at a friendly LaGG-3, mainly from six o'clock. I needed 2-7-4-5-9 hits to down the plane. An average of 5.4 hits. Man, I have seen better concrete on seventy year old highways.
After that I tried some dogfighting with the F-4 against veteran and ace AI. I never was in danger. I started with Boom'n'Zoom. I needed 6:00 min (engine killed) and 20:00 min (wing off, plane exploded). Than I was going for a turn fight and shot the enemy down in 4:30 min (engine burning & killed). After that I did a final fight with no tactics, just going for opportunity. After 9:00 min I killed the enemy pilot.

- The only way to shoot a lagg3 down is to achieve a
- PK, because with F2 you wont be able to do any
- structural damages on it.

Since complains were more about F-2 I then flew the F-2. I needed 4:40 min. The pilot bailed after I punched _visible_ holes in horizonzal stab and left wing.
I now did some testing with the F-2. I didn'T count hits, but I managed to rip a wing off (by igniting fuel tank) with the 7.92 only, even though I needed a while. I managed the same thing with the 15mm very quickly (probably 3-5 hits) and I destroyed the entire rear fuselage of the LaGG with 15mm. This took a while (maybe 30 hits).

- when your 15mm is gone, and you have only 7.62 try
- to shoot at him.. once I scored 400 * 7.62 rounds on
- a single lagg3 without any probing results..

Was this with FB 1.1b or 1.0? In 1.0 the LaGG3(41) was structurally invincible to small calibre guns. But now it isn't.

- but if you think its normal.

My findings make it appear normal, yes.

- and btw, lagg3 S4 is very very undermodelled in FB
- 1.1b you are right.

I didn't say that, did I? It was very, very overmodelled in 1.0 but is no more.

- and sooooooooo funny.

Thx, I'm trying my best.



Message Edited on 09/03/0311:43AM by JtD

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 03:17 PM
Those guys in real life could kill each other with one short burst. They didn't need many minutes and so meny bullets to kill the enemy.

Pls. visit the following website to get some insights how devastating bullets are when they hit an airborne aircraft:

http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/oberstguncam/Frameset/index2.htm

Look under "Actual WWII GunCam Footage".

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 03:47 PM
Porta_ wrote:
- Those guys in real life could kill each other with
- one short burst. They didn't need many minutes and
- so meny bullets to kill the enemy.

The MG 151/20 has a ROF of about 700 rpm. I posted the number of required hits already. Now I'll do it in seconds for you.
2 hits -> 0.17 seconds
7 hits -> 0.60 seconds
4 hits -> 0.34 seconds
5 hits -> 0.43 seconds
9 hits -> 0.77 seconds
MG 151/15 had about the same ROF, so for ripping a wing off its
3 to 5 hits -> 0.26 to 0.43 second,
for destroying fuselage
30 hits -> 2.57 seconds
This what I consider a short burst and a FEW bullets, esp. if I am flying with one of the weakest armed planes in WW2.
The only difference is with 7.92, I needed a lot of hits and a lot of time. But these guns don't cause structural failure, you have to hit and penetrate something critcal. This is very hard to do from 6 o'clock. lanes frequently returned home with 100+ hits.

I needed many minutes to get into a decent firing position, not many minutes firing.

- Pls. visit the following website to get some
- insights how devastating bullets are when they hit
- an airborne aircraft:

This is an impression of how devastating bullets CAN BE when they hit an airborne aircraft.