PDA

View Full Version : Thank you Oleg! The Dots are back to realistic again!



Pentallion
11-19-2004, 05:07 PM
I love that the dots are much more visible now. No more Mr. Magoo in WW2. In real life, flight visibility is much farther than what we've had to deal with in IL2 since the dots got fainter. Now we are back to the original dark dots and they are much better and much more realistic.

Thank you Oleg for not caving into the demands of a vocal minority who want to favor their hardware advantages over the sims realism.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pentallion
11-19-2004, 05:07 PM
I love that the dots are much more visible now. No more Mr. Magoo in WW2. In real life, flight visibility is much farther than what we've had to deal with in IL2 since the dots got fainter. Now we are back to the original dark dots and they are much better and much more realistic.

Thank you Oleg for not caving into the demands of a vocal minority who want to favor their hardware advantages over the sims realism.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

nickdanger3
11-19-2004, 06:05 PM
Sure makes your heart beat faster the first time though: "They're right on top of me !" Wait a sec..."

Saburo_0
11-19-2004, 07:10 PM
Love the Dots!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Stiglr
11-19-2004, 07:45 PM
Y'know, this might be the "straw that broke the camel's back" for me in terms of buying this sim.

I've really been on the fence, and the horrible light gray dots have been one of the biggest reasons.

Now that they've been addressed, and perhaps visilility has some link with reality, this might eliminate one of my big problems with the IL-2 system.

mortoma
11-19-2004, 07:51 PM
I disagree, as a real life pilot, the dark dots are not more realistic. They are easier to see but absolutley not realistic!!! The faint dots which we had until lately were even too easy to see, really. I RL you can't see planes very far away at all, even on a dry, crystal clear day. And I have 20-15 vision with my glasses on, which is better than 20-20. And when you do see a far away plane it doesn't look like a fakey black dot!! What we are seeing now at a distance in PF is whole entire pixel. Never seen a plane in RL far away that looked like a square black pixel!! I liked it much better the way it was before, now it looks goofy, cartoonish and arcadish. I would expect to see a distant planes that look like this on some old Commodore 64 title, way back in the late 80s, early 90s!!!! So I whole-heartedly disagree and would go so far as to say I hate it now. We want a sim, not an arcade game.

mortoma
11-19-2004, 07:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Y'know, this might be the "straw that broke the camel's back" for me in terms of buying this sim.

I've really been on the fence, and the horrible light gray dots have been one of the biggest reasons.

Now that they've been addressed, and perhaps visilility has some link with reality, this might eliminate one of my big problems with the IL-2 system. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Linked with reality?? Have you seen a distant plane that looked like a huge dark black, square pixel?? I sure haven't, not from the ground or the air. The challenge of seeing the faint dots like it was before was way more enjoyable because planes really are hard to see far away. It added challenge to spotting the enemy and it was more like reality, much more like reality. As a RL pilot, I only wish planes were that easy to spot, would do much for flight safety. But sorry, it ain't that way. In other words Sigler, you want an arcade game, not a sim. The fact that you fly "whatever-ware" would bear that fact out. I forget what they call that P.O.S. game you fly.

mortoma
11-19-2004, 08:03 PM
Oh yea, they call it Targetware. Probably because the quality of it is like something you buy at Target!! LOL

ucanfly
11-19-2004, 08:15 PM
I LOVE THE DOTS! Disappearing invisible dots at 1 km is not realistic. PLease keep these dots. It is the one thing I have hated about this game and has pushed me away many times.

This has been one of the best patches ever Oleg. Now I barely put this patch in with my measely 56k connection and you are already talking about getting rid of it! Please don't snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Keep the new dots!

Saburo_0
11-19-2004, 08:23 PM
The new dots help out a lot & our squad may drop the icons because now we can all see the other planes , not just the guys with high end systems.
Personally I don't care if the dot isn't what an airplane really looks like as long as i can make it out at a realistic range & track it depite the limits of a little monitor.
Grapphics are overrated, what's awesome today will be outdated very soon. Its all about simulating aerial combat.

P.s. Morto,

you're really quite hostile.
If ya disagree fine, but don't abuse people.
Just go start you're own thread for people who agree with you. Oh & your targetware comment makes me think you're about 15 & probably don't know one end of a cessna from another. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Jungmann
11-19-2004, 08:58 PM
Agree with Mortoma--like the old black dots better. Like the new white ones, though.

Cheers,

chris455
11-19-2004, 09:09 PM
I too agree with Mortoma. For me, the new dots are an immersion-killer.

Charos
11-19-2004, 09:21 PM
New plane dots http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

New ship dots http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The human eye can see with 20/20 Vision 1 Arc Minute. For a WW2 Fighter in a vacuum (Ok I know the the Engine wouldnt run smarty http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) with no atmospheric aberations this would possibly just be spotted at approx 6.9KM as the smallest black spec you can imagine.

I think what we had before for the Aircraft not the ships was more accurate, perhaps not perfect but more accurate none the less.

Bearcat99
11-19-2004, 09:34 PM
I would prefer to have that as a server setting in the config or the control panel like the dotrange.... or only on ground targets. Personally after using them this afternoon before I went to gig #2 I dont care for them on aircraft. The reason is that it is harder to judge the distance of a target with no icons. When I fly offline I dont use icons. It is harder to judge exactly where the target is which is critical to what you do to try to position yourself for the best firing solution... all the dots look the same untill you can see wings coming out of them.

Bearcat99
11-19-2004, 09:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Y'know, this might be the "straw that broke the camel's back" for me in terms of buying this sim.

I've really been on the fence, and the horrible light gray dots have been one of the biggest reasons.

Now that they've been addressed, and perhaps visilility has some link with reality, this might eliminate one of my big problems with the IL-2 system. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMAO!!! You had so many complaints Stig!!! Everything from FMs to DMs and sounds.... LOL... Admit it... you know that lumps and all this series is IT as far as WW2 sims go... and you just cant resist any more inspite of all your bitc#in and moanin!!! LMAO http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif If the dots work for you then hey man.. that's cool.... but you know you have been chomping at the bit since this sucker came out.....LOL...
I'm gonna go try out the 190 under these new FMs now... it was never one of my favorites... as far as German gighters go I just like the 109s better.. the 190 is just too skittish for me.. I cant handle it.... but I figure if the P-47s FMs have been improved so much as far as E retention goes the 190 is worth a shot too.

Oh and BTW..... whats visilility? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Hunde_3.JG51
11-19-2004, 09:40 PM
Again, please listen guys this is not a matter of "keep the dots" or "bring back the old dots." The reason for the change in the first place was for people like me who run higher resolutions. The difference since FB 1.0 in running 1600x1200 and 1024x768 in aircraft visibility is HUGE. Everyone is saying the new dots are unrealistic, well the dots have been unrealistic for high res users for as long as FB has been around, and unrealistic in a serious disadvantage kind of way.

So the new dots are unfair to low res users, the old dots are unfair to high res users (and have been for a long time). The answer is a compromise, maybe something dependent on in-game resolution.

Bearcat99
11-19-2004, 09:42 PM
That sounds interesting too...I never even considered the different resolutions...... but what do you consider low res? I use 1024X768 on a 19" CRT with a 9800 Pro128 and a XP3200 on a A7N8X-D with a 1G of RAM.... and to me the dots are a distraction.

Hunde_3.JG51
11-19-2004, 09:47 PM
Bear, compare aircraft visibility in FB/AEP/PF from 1.0 through 3.0 with 1600x1200 vs. 1024x768. The difference is night and day and is the reason for the change. High res users have had a disadvantage for a long time, aircraft would simply disappear into the ground at very close distances, that is why you see so many high res guys supporting new dots and lower res guys against them. They are both right IMO, a compromise is needed and I am interested in what Oleg has come up with.

I consider 1024x768 low res. You would not believe how much different it is at 1600x1200, you feel as though you are blind. A change is long overdue IMO, but I am grateful it is being addressed.

mortoma
11-19-2004, 09:48 PM
The resolution thing explains it well for me, since I run at a terribly low resolution of 1024x768. Makes sense to me now. Too bad they can't have a setting that would allow the user to set far away planes however he/she wishes. But I suppose that would require too much programming in an engine already pushed to the limit. I'll live with the huge, dark black square pixels, at least that's what they look like on my CRT monitor. Won't complain about it from now on though, don't wish to be among the whining crowd!!! I'm far more satisfied with this patch/patches than dissatisfied in any case.

BinaryFalcon
11-19-2004, 09:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bearcat99:
That sounds interesting too...I never even considered the different resolutions...... but what do you consider low res? I use 1024X768 on a 19" CRT with a 9800 Pro128 and a XP3200 on a A7N8X-D with a 1G of RAM.... and to me the dots are a distraction. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's low res.

Anything higher than 1024x768 starts getting to be high res.

I also prefer to run at 1600x1200, and I can tell you that planes are completely invisible against the ground as close as 300m in many cases unless they're actively firing at you. It's really bad.

Changes to the visibility model like this one are a very good thing. It sucks having to drop your resolution down to something much more unrealistic like 1024x768 to play online, but it's pretty much a requirement.

Once I bit the bullet and started doing that, I too was able to spot people more than 1km out.

At this point in time it makes the most sense to gear the system towards working best with higher resolutions, as IL-2 is about 4 years old now and most people could now run it at better than 1024x768.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The faint dots which we had until lately were even too easy to see, really. I RL you can't see planes very far away at all, even on a dry, crystal clear day. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure you can. I've picked out and tracked aircraft 10 or more miles away on clear days at low altitude, and I don't even have 20/15 vision. It all depends on the conditions. Some days you could pick out planes 10-15 miles away. The worst day I remember you couldn't see anything beyond maybe 2 miles because half the state was on fire. However, on average, you could count on 6-7 miles of aircraft visibility if you took a few moments to look for them.

The dots aren't bad now. If you really want realism, keep the dots and upgrade your computer and run at a higher resolution than 1024x768. The sharper image is far closer to what you see in real life than the rather pixellated representation you get at 1024 and below.

mortoma
11-19-2004, 10:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Saburo_0:
The new dots help out a lot & our squad may drop the icons because now we can all see the other planes , not just the guys with high end systems.
Personally I don't care if the dot isn't what an airplane really looks like as long as i can make it out at a realistic range & track it depite the limits of a little monitor.
Grapphics are overrated, what's awesome today will be outdated very soon. Its all about simulating aerial combat.

P.s. Morto,

you're really quite hostile.
If ya disagree fine, but don't abuse people.
Just go start you're own thread for people who agree with you. Oh & your targetware comment makes me think you're about 15 & probably don't know one end of a cessna from another. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I never intend to come across as hostile but I'm often accused as being such. Must be my direct to the point and candid approach?!?! Well in any case wasn't trying to be abrasive, only a tad argumentative. But being argumentative should not be construed as hostile. And why would not liking Targetware and saying anything bad about it be like a 15 year old?? Probably only to someone who likes it. I don't have to like any other sim if I don't want to and will say anything bad about any sim if I want to. Plain and simple. Kerry and Bush cut each other down like all politicians running against one another. Does this make them 15 years old?? I hardly think so. And I know more about Cessnas than you I bet, and I haven't flown in years.

Hunde_3.JG51
11-19-2004, 10:06 PM
Well said BinaryFalcon.

Mortoma and Saburo, you are both quality guys. Let it slide.

AFJ_Locust
11-19-2004, 10:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mortoma:
I disagree, as a real life pilot, the dark dots are not more realistic. They are easier to see but absolutley not realistic!!! The faint dots which we had until lately were even too easy to see, really. I RL you can't see planes very far away at all, even on a dry, crystal clear day. And I have 20-15 vision with my glasses on, which is better than 20-20. And when you do see a far away plane it doesn't look like a fakey black dot!! What we are seeing now at a distance in PF is whole entire pixel. Never seen a plane in RL far away that looked like a square black pixel!! I liked it much better the way it was before, now it looks goofy, cartoonish and arcadish. I would expect to see a distant planes that look like this on some old Commodore 64 title, way back in the late 80s, early 90s!!!! So I whole-heartedly disagree and would go so far as to say I hate it now. We want a sim, not an arcade game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

what res are you useing they look like planes to me not black pixel dots

even far away when I zoom in I see ac shape not a dot I use 1280x960 res they look great imho

ucanfly
11-19-2004, 10:33 PM
I run at 1024X768 and I love these dots. They look very realistic to me. Maybe this is hardware dependent as I couldn't stand the old invisi-dots and can't believe that anyone would want them back. Does anyone else that has 3.00 confirm that at 800m the SBD almost disappears (even against the sky)?

pcpilot_MGG
11-19-2004, 11:05 PM
Interesting topic. I never realized before the differances in resolution ingame. Im gonna take a much closer look now at different resolutions till I find what I like.

aonyn
11-19-2004, 11:54 PM
I like the new dots very much.
I run at 1600 x 1200 and I used to find enemy planes hard to spot even at fairly close range.
Now I can spot them at a reasonable range.
Also, I enjoy the offline campaigns, and with the limited visibility distance, felt completely disadvantaged against the AI without icons.

BTW, I hate icons, the kill the emmersion for me.

Also, I never want to reduce the resolution, as I turn off my Anti Aliasing and Anisotropic Filtering for more performance, and run higher resolution to make up the graphic difference.
The net result for me has been better performance than with filtering, and still looking good. No filtering looks terrible at low resolutions though.

Please Oleg keep these new distant aircraft dots. If you change anything, please make the dot type an option in setup.

swingman
11-20-2004, 01:24 AM
I agree with mortoma. Here's a small experiment you can make (well, it depends on where you live.)

Go out to a small club-airfield, one which has a radio inside the club cabin, and which is no where near big enough to warrant an active tower.

Sit in the cabin, until you hear on the radio, somone calling out that they're on final. Then go out and look for the plane. The plane will, depending on the length of the runway, and the location of the cabin, most probably be between 1 and 3 km away. Since they've called final and which runway, you know where to look. I bet it'll average about 20s of searching until you spot it. Then when you've spotted it, look away for 5 seconds, and try to catch it again. This time chances are it'll be 2-3 seconds of searching again.

These planes are about the same size, maybe a bit smaller on the average, but not much, and they're not camouflaged.
_
/Bjorn.

mazexx
11-20-2004, 02:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:
Bear, compare aircraft visibility in FB/AEP/PF from 1.0 through 3.0 with 1600x1200 vs. 1024x768. The difference is night and day and is the reason for the change. High res users have had a disadvantage for a long time, aircraft would simply disappear into the ground at very close distances, that is why you see so many high res guys supporting new dots and lower res guys against them. They are both right IMO, a compromise is needed and I am interested in what Oleg has come up with.

I consider 1024x768 low res. You would not believe how much different it is at 1600x1200, you feel as though you are blind. A change is long overdue IMO, but I am grateful it is being addressed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I fully agree, and regarding the arguments put up by some RL pilots that the old ones where more realistic I don't agree (and I've flown IRL for 20 years). In a real plane the SA is much better in almost all situations compared to a simulator. You do see planes very far away in many situations (at least after the first spotting). Spotting a moving plane over a forest is much easier IRL than spotting a grey pixel over a horde of green/grey pixels! Something that really can not be simulated is the eyes ability to sort out somehting that moves IRL...

You hopefully have better control over your own head than over your mouse/joy-hat or whatever a sim can use for head movement. Thats why I normally even prefer the servers where outside view is allowed - as the handicaps of sitting in a simualtor cockpit as opposed to the real thing really disturbes me! It simply isn't realistic to sit with a FOV of 60-90 degrees trying to spot a light grey pixel in 1600x1200, whatever the "buffs" may say! (ohh what an invitation for flaming! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

Keep the new dots! A pixel is a pixel and deeming one of them more realistic seems like an academic discussion anyway http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The realism part is a what distance ypu would see a plane IRL and black dots is the only way to destinguish them from the other pixels!

/Mazex

F19_Orheim
11-20-2004, 02:57 AM
Realistic or not, I am VERY happy with new dots.
With my rig (including a 6800 GT card) I can easily run 4xAA, perfect setting and 1600x1200 resolution. However, instead I have been running it on excellent, 1024x768 online because there was NO WAY I could spot enemy airplanes with higher resolution.... when I did it made me a pilot with impaired vision.. even found myself squinting at times...

Another item that HUGELY affect how esily you can spot dots is your monitor. Before I had an old 17" Compaq monitor which was kind of dark. After I got a 19" HP monitor it seems I play a new game.... image a lot more crisp.

Now AT LAST I can really play this game/sim with full graphical effects that I have paid for and it is beautiful.

I think these dots are more fair for everyone with all kinds of settings/rigs ect. Fairness in my book is more important that "unrealistic squares".

RocketDog
11-20-2004, 03:11 AM
Agreed. I use 1600 x 1200 in excellent and the new dots are very good. At airshows and when I've flown IRL I've always found it quite possible to pick out aircraft at a good couple of km. With the old dots it was much, much harder in IL-2 than IRL.

Maybe it needs some fine tuning or customisability, but it's a great step in the right direction.

An unexpected and very welcome surprise in the new patch.

Regards,

RocketDog.

xTHRUDx
11-20-2004, 03:53 AM
new plane dots = bad

new boat dots = good

new ground target dots = bad

put it to a poll, someone.

hobnail
11-20-2004, 04:32 AM
Check Oleg's room for a poll.

And Oleg's response is there too.

Hrannar
11-20-2004, 04:37 AM
Isn't time for you blokes to realize that you are playing a game looking at a computer monitor?

DuxCorvan
11-20-2004, 04:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mortoma:
Kerry and Bush cut each other down like all politicians running against one another. Does this make them 15 years old?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ehem... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

S.taibanzai
11-20-2004, 05:28 AM
wel lose the ugly unreal hard to judge distange

blocking view arcade dots

this is the worst change back i ever seen on il-2

i sure dont like them at al

and play at res 1280x270 32 bits
monitor flatron 795 ft

reverd back to patch 2.04 dots please Mr Oleg
its like playing in a pingball game rater then a sim

Tully__
11-20-2004, 05:35 AM
I found the new dots better at short to medium ranges (1.5-4km), no different at longer medium range (4-7km) and a tad overdone at long range (&gt;7km). Maybe hosts might consider using:

mp_dotrange DOT 8.5

or around there to bring maximum visible range down a bit from the default 11km.... the dots fade in at max set range, the don't magically appear, so the setting above would have dots not fully visible til about 7.8 - 8.1 km.

LeadSpitter_
11-20-2004, 09:25 AM
I have to disagree also while its much much easier to spot people across the map you cant really judge distance anymore.
We cant hide in the horizon which i would use alot online staying below an aircraft thats maybe 1000m above me then bounce him from underneath using the horizon to blend in from his view angle which worked well. Rather then staying higher all the time which is very successful also.

I really hope this is not the last patch seeing the axis dive accelaration high speed manueverability and breakup speeds of 900kmph in 109s and 1000 in 190s with faster dive accelaration and less energy bleed. Also the hellcat windows are still filty and i dont know why all usn planes are breaking up with such low 750kmph speeds.

another thing is above 1200, 120 richmix cant be used but for all USN planes but ijn it can be used high alt and noticable boost even yaks can go to 3000m with rich mix. Remember fb early days 120 = 10% extra trottle.

Another thing that really bugs me is the p40b c etc lack of high speed handling its just as bad as the p40e was in version 1.0 and the p39 p400 are just like that now too.

Check multiple data chart references and they all show high speed improved handling especially over the ki43 and zekes.

P40b was even more manueverable then the e and m low and high speed and more manueverable the the hurricane and spitfire low and high speed.

The only US plane more manueverable then the the hawk p40b c kittyhawks was the p36 and h75. The the cw21 was more manuever then both low

I fly all the planes and i have to say german is so much better then russian now same class as the ki84 in my book, and allies are totally borked. Still the russian dms were not reduced which is one of the major things wrong with the eastern front sets.

The jug and p38 were improved slightly in the patch but everything else got much worse and everything german and ijn got majorly improved even before in 2.04 the axis had a major advantage over us and british aircraft but now we have absolutley nothing we can outrun out manuever high speed, out dive accelarate nothing at all. The only thing to do is stay 3000-4000m above and try to bnz but if you miss its all over.

Even in 3.0 a good corsair pilot was no match for the good ki84, I definatly admit the corsair was a major floating ufo but the ki84 is even moreso. Now in the ki84 im taking on 6 corsairs almost each run and the hellcat is like a slug and such an easy kill.

The ki84 needs its max rudder use toned down and cause it to go into a stall like how the p39s wildcat p40bs do. All planes need to do that from fast stick yanking manuevers and 1000m+ difficult recovery which is so great and reminds me of sturmovik days rather then the arcade stick yank flopping instant recovery with center stick planes. I hope oleg can implement this to all aircraft and the stick yank flops with be a thing of the past and would be the best thing that happened to this game.

And another thing which bugs me this game can not simulate a heavy plane thats slower in level accelaration to have faster accelaration in a dive then a lighter aircraft with better level flight accelaration. The only thing i guess that could be done is lower breakup speeds of the lightweight faster accelarating aircraft to counter and give some slight advantage to the heavy weights in dives but i doubt that would be done.

I dunno just seems to get worse and worse for anything us made to me, flame away axis.

I dont fly the spitfires much but im glad to see the overheat bug was fixed also the .50cal seems improved from 3.0 .

Tater-SW-
11-20-2004, 10:31 AM
I can look out the window to my left and see planes on final at our large airport 12 miles away all day long. They are against ground clutter as well, not sky (I am 1200+ft above the airport). It's usually very clear here in New Mexico, so I have an atmospheric advantage.

Yes, it is hard to see them, and easy to lose sight. But it isn't IMPOSSIBLE to see them, and it isn't IMPOSSIBLE to respot them. With the old dots, at my resolution (I vary between 1600, and 1280 depending on excellent/perfect with my 9800 pro, 21 inch monitor) it was frequently impossible to spot them.

The question is not how they look, but what data you get. I never use icons, BTW, that's a real immersion killer for me (though they do give some info I should have in RL I don't get on screen). How many km away do the old dots fade out? How many km away do the new dots disappear?

tater

Buzzer1
11-20-2004, 10:54 AM
To call it realistic is wrong imho.
If a plane comes head-on at you - its extremely difficult to spot. The shape you see is tiny...
Now there is no difference at what aspect angle you see other AC.
It might be a solution for the ho-/low res differences - but its not a perfect solution imho. And why are they pitch black? Would be at lest be better with a bit camouflaged color imho (grey etc).
http://home.online.no/~ru-hauga/artimages/1.jpg