PDA

View Full Version : Please change the leveling system, it hurts exploration and combat!



SerapisTrident
07-03-2018, 04:42 AM
It seems like AC is evolving into more of an open “choose your own adventure” RPG with greater player choice. This is awesome and the direction is great! I love the open exploration and being able to have that kind of freedom.

But one thing I really dislike is the way the enemy level system works. It just makes no sense for combat in an RPG and it doesn’t allow the player to complete the world map in any order they choose. It takes away player choice because for much of the game a player cannot really explore areas that they would want to. They are ranked too low in the level system and cannot possibly win against the enemies in map regions that are leveled that high.

The level system doesn’t make any real sense for combat in a historical type game. Enemy characters are grouped by character classes. In Origins you have classes like regular soldiers, officers and brutes. This is in addition to the more difficult characters like commanders. Why should a regular soldier in one region have a Level 1 and another regular soldier in another map region with the same skills have a rank of Level 55? Why is the most generic and low ranked bandit in a region be 30-40X the level of the most difficult commander in a lower level region?

That’s not how combat in the historical period would work. The real abilities of an enemy character depend on their strength, speed, training and skills. Some would have more experience than others. In Rome and Greece the most valuable and powerful forces were always very valuable and kept close to the major cities and fortifications. For example the Praetorian guard the most elite force in the Roman army were stationed in Rome itself. That means in Origins the most powerful forces would be in Alexandria, Cyrene and major citadels. This would be to provide protection to the ports and commercial areas. Regional forces in the more remote regions would be lower ranked as they were expendable.

In Origins it makes no sense, the most powerful forces are in the most remote regions. This makes combat and the flow of the game less realistic. It would be near impossible to attack Alexandria, Cyrene a citadel or a major port and suicidal. But in Origins Alexandria is the easiest area of the map and Bayek is able to walk right in without any resistance. No guards at the walls, no gates to pass through? It would have been filled with hundreds of the most elite soldiers either in the city or stationed in a nearby citadel.

That’s why I suggest having an option called “relative leveling” for Odyssey. It would work like the “enemy auto level” in Origins but it would have to be enabled at the start of a new game and not during an ongoing game. Instead or the player starting at Level 1 they start at the maximum level possible. The game is set to hard by default. Enemies are simply +1, +5 or -1 the players level. This is based on character classes and not region of the map. Regular soldiers everywhere would be +1 or maybe +2 or +5 if they were special types. Brutes would be a bit higher and do more damage. Officers and commanders would be even higher at +10 or +15.

Then enemy characters would have additional points on their level depending on the density of enemies in that region. For example enemies stationed in cities, citadels and port areas would be more experienced and more valuable and have bonus level points or have slightly greater health. Enemies in more remote regions would be rookies and less so.

Naval combat levels would also follow a similar pattern, with ships and crews rated based on their stats and experience levels. A small enemy ship with a less experienced crew might be +2 but a large trireme with a 15 person crew and serious armor would be +10 or +15.

As the player progressed, gained new skills and stats the enemy combatants would level up in the areas the player had the most fights. The enemy factions would "learn" how the player fights by doing "enemy auto level". That is the regions where the player is most active would "auto level" incrementally for all enemies on a curve so that at some point things normalized and kept the combat difficult and fun. Enemies in regions the player had not yet gone into would not have experience fighting the player and would level up less.

Players would be encouraged to explore remote and distant areas first and avoid dangerous areas like cities. It would blend more with the stealth aspects of AC. It would also make it more exciting to go and raid citadels and city areas if the player knew they were the most difficult.

edit: Also I want to mention that the "auto level" feature and New Game+ is the only thing keeping me playing Origins right now. Working to level up before then become laborious and boring. The level system hurts replay value, if I'm a Level 55 and there are Level 1 enemies whats the point? Also please have officers and commanders respawn at forts and citadels and reset the activity. It would take a longer time but once again, it makes the game more real.

:cool:

Swailing
07-03-2018, 10:27 PM
But one thing I really dislike is the way the enemy level system works. It just makes no sense for combat in an RPG and it doesn’t allow the player to complete the world map in any order they choose. It takes away player choice because for much of the game a player cannot really explore areas that they would want to. They are ranked too low in the level system and cannot possibly win against the enemies in map regions that are leveled that high.

Doesn't it? I unlocked the entire map at a really low level, because I immediately started going after locations beyond my level. That early section was the part where I had the most fun with the game.

There were locations where, because of the guard positioning, I could only aim for theft objectives. And I'd have to manipulate the situation by releasing animals, or waiting for a sandstorm, and running away zig-zagging with arrows flying all around me was a thrill. I didn't have to level up very far before I could take on enemies way above me, but then the trick was to engineer a situation where the boss I had to kill for the objective was separated from his team, and then knuckle down for a very difficult fight.

It also made exploration more exciting, because of how dangerous the animals were. I was learning to become scared when I spotted the predator's prey, because I knew the beasts wouldn't be far away. That was great. Later on, when I raised my level, animals were just an inconvenience.


The level system doesn’t make any real sense for combat in a historical type game. Enemy characters are grouped by character classes. In Origins you have classes like regular soldiers, officers and brutes. This is in addition to the more difficult characters like commanders. Why should a regular soldier in one region have a Level 1 and another regular soldier in another map region with the same skills have a rank of Level 55? Why is the most generic and low ranked bandit in a region be 30-40X the level of the most difficult commander in a lower level region?

Of all the things to be annoyed by, this one's pretty mystifying.


That’s not how combat in the historical period would work. The real abilities of an enemy character depend on their strength, speed, training and skills. Some would have more experience than others. In Rome and Greece the most valuable and powerful forces were always very valuable and kept close to the major cities and fortifications. For example the Praetorian guard the most elite force in the Roman army were stationed in Rome itself. That means in Origins the most powerful forces would be in Alexandria, Cyrene and major citadels. This would be to provide protection to the ports and commercial areas. Regional forces in the more remote regions would be lower ranked as they were expendable.

Do you really want to see astonishingly dangerous soldiers in colourful cities so that you can't visit them until you're a complete badass? Do you really want 'rural' to mean 'easy pickings'?

And what about trade routes? You see trade consignments moving all over the map. Why should the high-level military be centred in safe, cosmopolitan locations and not in fortresses and encampments all over the occupied area?

Your whole problem seems to boil down to how well you were able to cope with high level enemies, and you're using iffy appeals to historical accuracy to try and justify your dislike of getting your arse kicked. Reading your suggestions just lead to me thinking again and again, "But would that be fun?"

SerapisTrident
07-04-2018, 04:28 AM
This is a re-post of what I wrote earlier but I reworked the concept based on your feedback.

I too love extreme challenges in AC games. In the Origins main area and the DLCs I always took on much higher level enemies in new regions just for fun. Even going after enemies with skulls just to see if I could do it. Often times I was able to win against them.

That’s why I suggest having an option called “survival” mode for Odyssey. It would work like the “auto level” in Origins but it would have to be enabled at the start of a new game and not during an ongoing game. The lowest difficulty would be hard.

In “survival" mode enemies in the same character class have the same relative levels in ALL regions. Those levels should be based on actual character classes like regular soldiers, brutes, mercenaries, phylakes, special types and officers/commanders as well as elite units as well as other categories. Some random enemies in the same character class should be slightly higher ranked because they have more experience or higher stats as if they were "veterans". Tough higher level special and elite enemies would be present in ALL regions.

For example the most basic archer class "rookie" would have the same level in Region A, Region B and all regions on the map. A random number of these basic archers might be "veterans" and randomly have slightly higher stats increasing their accuracy or damage they can do to the player. This would make for less predictable situations.

The player should start at same relative level as the most rookie regular soldier character class. Upgrading and leveling up should allow the player to eventually be more like the elite character classes in the game, eventually surpassing them. The levels of all enemies should incrementally adjust when the player levels up to keep things challenging.

It would be amazing if the “survival” mode made major cities, important districts, ports and commercial areas into “hostile” areas. That is it enemy forces would be more aggressive and tend to start fights more often. This of course would be based on the story, like some regions in Odyssey might be allies, only enemy regions would have these elevated “hostile” zones. It would force a stealth approach to entering and moving around the cities or these areas. You would have to move around on rooftops and in alley ways. You would have to find hidden entrances to complete tasks within the city or alternative routes in that area.

This way “survival” mode would make every region challenging. It would make it harder to move around hostile areas. It would make the game more realistic and satisfying.