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View Full Version : Two simple solutions to make Dominion an objective-focused mode



Halvtand
07-01-2018, 10:42 PM
What is dominion?
In this game mode, two teams fight for control of the battlefield by taking objectives and eliminating enemy players. There are three control points: one in the center and two at the sides. At the start, a large group of soldiers will spawn and charge at the center control point. Afterwards, groups of soldiers will spawn regularly and do the same. The center control point is arguably the most difficult to capture as you need to first clear out enemy soldiers occupying it.
The side control points are either equidistant from both spawns or placed with one closest to each spawn.
Many maps have traps such as drawbridges and gates that can be used to kill enemies. Others have ballista at the side control points.
This mode relies on communication and teamwork as well as skill.
Source: http://forhonor.wikia.com/wiki/Dominion

What is the main problem with Dominion?
The overarching problem with Dominion is that players are awarded too much for engaging in battle with each other in relation to the awards gained from playing the objective.
Because of this, what is called “deathballs” have become a prominent phenomenon in Dominion. A deathball is a ganking-strategy in which all or several players on the same team starts running together to take out the enemy players one by one. By going after single players the deathball have a higher chance of winning each fight, and keeps the enemy team from recovering as they are outnumbered.
As the deathball rolls through each of the three zones it can be able to dominate the match without losing momentum.

How can this problem be fixed?
The easiest solution is often the best. Dominion as a game mode is not very innovative, and as such there is little wrong with the game mode itself. What needs to happen is a shift in priority of tasks to win the game.
The focus of this mode should be on taking the objectives, that is what Dominion has and Skirmish/Elimination lacks. Here are two simple solutions which will create this shift in focus.
1. Points awarded for killing enemy players (renown) only counts toward unlocking feats. These points are not added toward the team’s total score, which determines when the enemy starts to break.
2. Zones are only controlled when a player is present. If the zone is left unattended a timer will kick in and after a set amount of time the zone will become neutral.

Discussion on 1. Some heroes like assassins needs to kill enemy players to gain xp to unlock their feats. To take this away would seriously harm the balance between the hero classes. However, if controlling the zones is the primary objective of the mode then this is also where the bulk of the winning team’s success should come from. Killing enemy players should not be a goal in this mode, but rather a tool to reach the goal. The goal is to take and hold the zone, you kill or scare the enemy away from the zone to do this. Killing the enemy should not in itself award victory points, killing the enemy opens up the possibility to take or keep a zone, alternatively to keep killing minions undisturbed.

Discussion on 2. If Dominion’s main focus is to capture and hold the zones a team should not be awarded for capturing a zone and then abandoning it. With the use of a timer an abandoned zone will therefore return to neutral, remove the 100 points capture-bonus and stop giving the team 1 point per second. The advantage of a timer also means that a player tasked with holding a zone can leave this zone for short periods of time, perhaps to aid or revive a team mate nearby, and still get back without being penalised for it. As such the keeper of the zone is not required to be stationary, but rather to keep close to the important control zone.

How do these solutions solve the problem?
As stated before, the problem is that enemy kills are rewarded at an unreasonable rate. This makes killing the enemy a valid focus and if done right a deathball can win the game without bothering about capturing or holding zones. This basically turns Dominion into Skirmish with the addition of strange orange, white and blue lights on the floor.

Other solutions have suggested changing the maps Dominion is played on to make it easier for the deathballed team to run around the ball and win by playing the objective. Alternatively they have wanted to raise the importance of the zones by having them award more points, which leads to the problem of shorter rounds, which would necessitate raising the limit for breaking. Such solutions, valid as they may be, means a lot of work.

By removing the points from enemy kills as a factor to win the game we’re not screwing with the rate in which players unlock their feats. We will, however, remove the incentive to mindlessly run around and kill enemy players (except for assassins (and zealous hybrids)) as it will not count toward the teams victory. As this becomes apparent that strategies prioritising the taking and holding of zones are rewarded while killing enemy players is not we will also see a shift in how the game mode is played.

By making the zones return to neutral if left unattended the game mode will incentivise teams to split up to cover more ground and thus dominate the entire battlefield. Some maps are designed in a way where the control zones are either lined up (such as Forge or Sanctuary Bridge) or very close together (such as Shard). This has so far been a problem for teams facing deathballs as there really is no way of going around the ball. If zones return to neutral after a set time this means that the winning team are penalised by losing points and bonuses if they choose to gather in one zone instead of spreading out, this would at the same time help the losing team to make a comeback if they do manage to get around the ball.

Will these solutions get rid of the deathball?
No, and that is not the point. The deathball is a valid strategy and played right it can be very fearsome. The problem with the deathball as the game mode is right now is that it is highly rewarded and with few drawbacks. These solutions still enable deathball-teams to play the way they want, but forces them to play smarter and gives the opposing team a clearer image of what is needed to turn the game around.

Then what is the point?
The point of these solutions is to make Dominion its own game mode, distinctly separated from Skirmish by it’s focus on taking and holding the zones instead of killing enemy heroes.
It is also to make the game mode more dynamic and strategic. Gathering the whole team in one place for an epic showdown may yield great results, but in doing so you will literally open your zones up to the enemy. If you choose to spread out you can hold all the zones at the same time, but you may lack the stopping-power needed to resist an enemy attack. If you risk losing the zone, will you leave it to help your friend fight, or trust him to do his job as you do yours? If you are not actually rewarded for killing an enemy, do you pursue him as he flees the zone (and thus risk the zone) to spare your team mates the fight or do you stay and hold the zone?

These solutions, some of the reasoning behind them and a discussion on whether dominion should remain in the game are also offered by alustar24 in this thread (https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1902878-Why-does-it-seem-ok-to-have-only-one-playable-4v4-mode).

Haplo_Bane
07-01-2018, 10:53 PM
Nice,well presented post. Sounds good to me.

Darkmight_cz
07-01-2018, 11:09 PM
Interesting idea I like it. 😉 this can help to solve problems with gang squads

Baggin_
07-01-2018, 11:21 PM
Great post, mix it with my ideas and this game would be just about perfect. https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1903056-My-top-three-things-that-need-to-happen-to-make-For-Honor-better

UbiInsulin
07-02-2018, 01:44 AM
Interesting ideas! This would definitely change the way Dominion is played. I'll make sure to note this thread for the team.

Mia.Nora
07-02-2018, 02:42 AM
Interesting ideas! This would definitely change the way Dominion is played. I'll make sure to note this thread for the team.

Look I don't want to be rude but, literally exact same suggestions were put forward during the stickied deathball thread a few months ago by many people. Mind you the suggestions in that thread were posted in many different threads over the year before that thread.

And that thread was swept under the rug by making a WD where they show a pro team sitting side by side with headsets attempting deathball losing to a pro team sitting side by side with headsets. That was the PR stunt to tell us that there is nothing wrong with the system.

Now you come here and react as if these suggestions have been brought up for the first time??? Seriously?? I understand that this is your job and you get paid to do that, but this is insulting and infuriating.

UbiInsulin
07-02-2018, 02:57 AM
Look I don't want to be rude but, literally exact same suggestions were put forward during the stickied deathball thread a few months ago by many people. Mind you the suggestions in that thread were posted in many different threads over the year before that thread.

And that thread was swept under the rug by making a WD where they show a pro team sitting side by side with headsets attempting deathball losing to a pro team sitting side by side with headsets. That was the PR stunt to tell us that there is nothing wrong with the system.

Now you come here and react as if these suggestions have been brought up for the first time??? Seriously?? I understand that this is your job and you get paid to do that, but this is insulting and infuriating.

This is definitely far from the first time we've brought up deathball concerns and various suggestions to the team. It's pretty much a constant refrain from us to them, regardless of what's said on any stream. We report what you all are telling us.

I just meant to meet Halvtand's post in the spirit in which it was given: "Hey, here's my concept for improving Dominion." It was a very detailed post with a lot of thought behind it, so I wanted to give OP props. I will be passing it on, as I said.

Halvtand
07-02-2018, 12:56 PM
Interesting ideas! This would definitely change the way Dominion is played. I'll make sure to note this thread for the team.
Thanks man, It’s nice to get noticed.


Look I don't want to be rude but, literally exact same suggestions were put forward during the stickied deathball thread a few months ago by many people. Mind you the suggestions in that thread were posted in many different threads over the year before that thread.
And that thread was swept under the rug by making a WD where they show a pro team sitting side by side with headsets attempting deathball losing to a pro team sitting side by side with headsets. That was the PR stunt to tell us that there is nothing wrong with the system.
Now you come here and react as if these suggestions have been brought up for the first time??? Seriously?? I understand that this is your job and you get paid to do that, but this is insulting and infuriating.
I don’t claim that these ideas are my original creations or that I am the first one to type them out. What I wanted to do here is to put it out again, in a thread that makes sense to me and that emphasises that the point is not to specifically get rid of deathballs, deathballs are just the symptom in this case. The point is to shift the focus of the game mode to the objectives and to do so with as small of a work load as possible.
At this point I think that be best thing we can do is make sure that this kind of discussion stays alive. To keep talking about the problems of the mode and possible fixes. The clearest message we can sent do the dev team is a long discussion spanning multiple threads.

Mia.Nora
07-02-2018, 01:36 PM
Thanks man, It’s nice to get noticed.


I don’t claim that these ideas are my original creations or that I am the first one to type them out. What I wanted to do here is to put it out again, in a thread that makes sense to me and that emphasises that the point is not to specifically get rid of deathballs, deathballs are just the symptom in this case. The point is to shift the focus of the game mode to the objectives and to do so with as small of a work load as possible.
At this point I think that be best thing we can do is make sure that this kind of discussion stays alive. To keep talking about the problems of the mode and possible fixes. The clearest message we can sent do the dev team is a long discussion spanning multiple threads.

Sorry, you got my point wrong. I am quite happy to see people posting and keeping it alive with the problem of deathball, even more so seeing people suggesting the commonly agreed solution of early discussions. There is no original ownership when it comes to feedback, no one owns or needs to be credited with it, since it is only meant for the wellbeing of the game.

My frustration about this issue is that devs choose not to do anything about this and declared as a non-issue in the face of a mountain of feedback. When that topic was highly heated once again a few months ago it ended up being a stickied thread, where most commonly agreed solutions were the ones you just wrote. Sadly the reaction from dev team was pulling a PR stunt to tell us that there was nothing wrong with Dominion and deathballing using some pro teams who play in an extremely coordinated way sitting side by side using headsets with mics to successfully deal with deathball. Then they swept the issue under the rug.

I was annoyed seeing the moderator reacting as if this is not an issue that was denied by the devs and pretending and giving lip service.. well practically doing his job..

RLTygurr
07-02-2018, 02:40 PM
I would like to add another suggestion that may help this situation OP.

I think the idea of the zones returning to neutral is a good one, as it prevents teams from killing two or three of the enemy players then freely taking the zones and walking back to essentially spawn camp them while holding the zones. The only issue I foresee with this is that in most maps, the zones are very close together and it makes it easy for teams to hold one or two objectives (including the soldier zone) while spawn camping their opponents. The games would be longer, less fun imo, and would probably not be too much different unfortunately.

My suggestion is for maps to be a bit larger, and for there to be MORE zones, including a second soldier zone. With more objectives, it's much harder to capture all of them and it gives the losing team more options for escaping a deathball strategy since they don't have to run straight into them in order to reach a zone. This combined with the zones eventually returning to neutral would make it easier for a team to come back by capturing and holding zones that are farther away from the deathball, and would more than likely help the losing team gain some feats in order to fight back.

The only issue I could see with this is that assassins would have a bit of an advantage because of their movement speed. Tribute already has a huge problem with this so making maps larger might skew the match in their favor as well.

Not certain if it would work as I see it. Anyone got opinions on that?

Tyrjo
07-02-2018, 04:19 PM
Just changing so that the team has to actually stand on the zone to get points would change a lot for Dominion.

Halvtand
07-02-2018, 04:42 PM
Sorry, you got my point wrong. I am quite happy to see people posting and keeping it alive with the problem of deathball, even more so seeing people suggesting the commonly agreed solution of early discussions. There is no original ownership when it comes to feedback, no one owns or needs to be credited with it, since it is only meant for the wellbeing of the game.

My frustration about this issue is that devs choose not to do anything about this and declared as a non-issue in the face of a mountain of feedback. When that topic was highly heated once again a few months ago it ended up being a stickied thread, where most commonly agreed solutions were the ones you just wrote. Sadly the reaction from dev team was pulling a PR stunt to tell us that there was nothing wrong with Dominion and deathballing using some pro teams who play in an extremely coordinated way sitting side by side using headsets with mics to successfully deal with deathball. Then they swept the issue under the rug.

I was annoyed seeing the moderator reacting as if this is not an issue that was denied by the devs and pretending and giving lip service.. well practically doing his job..
Thank you for clearing that up. I really understand your frustration about this. It is something most people here have experienced on one issue or another at some point I believe. The deathball issue is a tough one and a real sore spot for many players. The PR-stunt you mention is almost as bad as actually handing a trophy to a guy who cheated himself to victory in an official tournament instead of banning him on the spot, alas this is a discussion for another thread (and possibly a time long, long ago). It’s nice to see that you wish to keep the discussion about Dominion’s flaws alive though, and I hope we’ll see many more threads on the subject so it can’t be ignored.


My suggestion is for maps to be a bit larger, and for there to be MORE zones, including a second soldier zone. With more objectives, it's much harder to capture all of them and it gives the losing team more options for escaping a deathball strategy since they don't have to run straight into them in order to reach a zone. This combined with the zones eventually returning to neutral would make it easier for a team to come back by capturing and holding zones that are farther away from the deathball, and would more than likely help the losing team gain some feats in order to fight back.
Great suggestion. I do mention the larger maps-solution in my opening post. My main problem with it is that it would require a lot of work. Not only in designing new, larger maps but also pulling out the old (small) ones, code additional control points and so on and so forth. My theme for this thread is small fixes that can have big effects. Bigger maps is still a valid solution though.


Just changing so that the team has to actually stand on the zone to get points would change a lot for Dominion.
It would. But I fear that it wouldn’t change enough. With only neutral zones I believe the matches would only become longer.

AkenoKobayashi
07-07-2018, 11:30 PM
Do you think larger maps with more than 3 objective points would be good, too?

wolfman25br
07-10-2018, 07:04 PM
2. Zones are only controlled when a player is present. If the zone is left unattended a timer will kick in and after a set amount of time the zone will become neutral.
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This alone would change a lot, but to work properly, more points to hold and secure are needed (4?), to spread the troops around.

Would be cool if when someone hold it for for a certain ammount of time, some minions/captain spawn to help contain the offensive.

The troops remain even if you leave the zone, but it become neutral as said before.

BTTrinity
07-10-2018, 07:12 PM
Glad you bring this back up Halvtand, Id love to see these happen.

wolfman25br
07-10-2018, 10:34 PM
Would it be nice if the devs mention it if there is a movemento or any possibility of making some change in the dominion mode?

Or are we stuck with it as it is?

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
07-11-2018, 01:11 AM
They could add tunnels with an extra zone inside. They could switch the spawn sides. They could make feats much harder to get.

MrGrippz
07-11-2018, 01:31 AM
Well executed thread & I agree this would drastically change strategy on dominion. Conversely it might make more ppl play deathmatch modes cuz Skimirsh is very similar to current style dominion as far as "deathball" gank squads are concerned.

Great post homie.

SpaceJim12
07-11-2018, 10:22 AM
Look I don't want to be rude but, literally exact same suggestions were put forward during the stickied deathball thread a few months ago by many people. Mind you the suggestions in that thread were posted in many different threads over the year before that thread.

Still, I remember the Den where devs said, that they work on Dominion, one way or another.
And yes, Dominion need fix like a year already. And while season 8 will be Breach season, I think next season is a good time for devs to change Dominion. Some major fixes could be enough to make people keep playing one more season before Marching Fire.

Tyrjo
07-12-2018, 07:26 AM
It would. But I fear that it wouldn’t change enough. With only neutral zones I believe the matches would only become longer.

If the scoring system is changed people will start to actually stand in the zones more to prevent them from becoming neutral. Of course it would lower the point generation if a zone is left unattended. I also think we would see more zones being contested for longer periods of time. Maybe you can circumvent that by increasing point generation when you stand in a zone and rewarding succesful defense of a zone in some way?

VampireDovah
07-12-2018, 05:17 PM
Yea I kinda wish people actually fought for zones rather than cap some zones and slaughter the enemy before they can recuperate

tomryder67
07-13-2018, 12:38 AM
very good information

Maxime_Qc-
07-13-2018, 01:13 AM
Dominion should be close at least 1 hour per day.. to force people moving on another mode...

Just so the one who want to play something else like me can find each others instead of staying 20 minutes in a matchmaking...after 1 hour some would probably stay...

And server would roll again


How can y'all just want dominion...

Since the beginning everyone here seem to say that it's a mode for noob that just wanna bash on people 4v1
.. that its a mode with no skills involved ( and i agree with this)

And yet y'all only play this ****!!!

chairogom
07-19-2018, 04:21 PM
This should be implemented.
I hope boring Dominion will be improved.

chukblok
07-20-2018, 03:12 AM
i support a lot of these ideas. personally i say take away kill counts...period. If the point is to capture and hold..ie “dominate” a point..whats the point in a kill board? should that not only be for more of a skirmish deathmatch style? i mean lets face it...with a kill board lots of people have ONE thing in mind...having the highest kill numbers...its human nature.
“hey we lost..but who cares i got the highest kill count”. :)
i know this is not the case for some of you....but really in dominion what is the point of a kill/death board?
and i fully support idea of staying in a objective to gain points

Halvtand
07-20-2018, 11:56 AM
If the scoring system is changed people will start to actually stand in the zones more to prevent them from becoming neutral. Of course it would lower the point generation if a zone is left unattended. I also think we would see more zones being contested for longer periods of time. Maybe you can circumvent that by increasing point generation when you stand in a zone and rewarding succesful defense of a zone in some way?
That is probably exactly what would happen. I’m pretty fine with it as it seems to be the point of the game mode. There is also still a deeper tactical layer to it as people who have the zones will want to fight outside them more (as contended zones doesn’t give points), and also for assassin-heroes to still roam outside the zones for kills. They may not give the team point directly, but in scoring kills they still stop the enemy team from capturing zones.
I think you already get a bonus for defending a zone. After this type of system is implemented maybe that bonus should be looked at closer to see if it is at a good level.


i support a lot of these ideas. personally i say take away kill counts...period. If the point is to capture and hold..ie “dominate” a point..whats the point in a kill board? should that not only be for more of a skirmish deathmatch style? i mean lets face it...with a kill board lots of people have ONE thing in mind...having the highest kill numbers...its human nature.
“hey we lost..but who cares i got the highest kill count”. :)
i know this is not the case for some of you....but really in dominion what is the point of a kill/death board?
and i fully support idea of staying in a objective to gain points
This is a really good idea, and a thing I’ve talked to a few friends about. In Tribute they don’t list player deaths as deaths are irrelevant in that mode. Just like that we should switch the scoreboard for dominion to show the relevant info and this encourage people to play the objective.
Skrimish/Elimination hase Takedowns/Deaths/Powerups – All three are relevant for winning the mode. Switch powerups for captured zones and you have dominion which gives the impression that capturing zones in dominion is about as important as getting a powerup in skirmish.
Tribute has Takedowns/Claims/Blocks – While kills aren’t all that relevant I can’t think of another thing that would be relevant in this case, so I guess kills is fine. Blocks and Claims are exactly what the mode is all about.
Dominion should have Soldiers killed/Captured zones/Defended zones – These three are all relevant to playing he objective and having high numbers on it shows that you’ve done so.

Please start a separate thread about this new score board and I’ll be happy to further develop my thought in it. I think this is a good discussion to have.