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View Full Version : "They just stood there gazing" Germans reaction to black navigator pilot!



SeaFireLIV
03-28-2008, 05:42 AM
While searching for any evidence of black Brit soldiers at dunkirk I discovered this little gem. I`ve seen recollections of Russian pilots, German pilots, British pilots, American pilots, even Black American pilots... but Black British pilots... hmmm

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/johnny.jpg

"We knew what lay ahead of us. Every day we counted the number that returned. We also knew that there was a good chance that we would not return. We met with our first serious trouble during an operation over Mainz in Germany. The plane had several times been pelted by flak and it was in a bad state. Although we lost one of our engines, we still managed to limp back home."

"On one occasion we were flying back over England when a German fighter began to dog us. I saw it first and yelled to the rear gunner, ˜Frank, open up!' It was quite scary because we were flying so low that, had the plane been actually shot down, we wouldn't have had time to bail out! The noise caused by the two aircraft brought our anti-aircraft fire from the ground, which fended off the German fighter, and we were able to land safely. Another lucky escape!"

Johnny Smythe was promoted to Flying Officer. But on his 28th mission, on the night of 18th November 1943, his luck ran out:

"We were flying at 16,000 ft when the fighters came out of nowhere. They raked the fuselage and there were flames everywhere. Then the searchlights caught us. I was hit by shrapnel. Pieces came from underneath, piercing my abdomen, going through my side. Another came through my seat and into my groin. I heard the pilot ordering us to bail out. We had some rough ones before but this seemed to be the end."

Johnny parachuted to the ground and hid in a barn:

"Men in uniform came into the barn where I was hiding behind some straw. Then they opened up, raking the place with automatic fire. I decided to give in. The Germans couldn't believe their eyes. I'm sure that's what saved me from being shot immediately. To see a black man – and an officer at that – was more than they could come to terms with. They just stood there gazing."

In Stalag Luft One, a prisoner-of-war camp for officers in Pomerania, Smythe helped on the escape committee, but couldn't break out himself: "I don't think a six-foot-five black man would've got very far in Pomerania, somehow."

The Russians freed Johnny in 1945, and a Russian Army Officer embraced him and gave him vodka:

"I was fêted because I was black. They took me to a town near the camp and I watched as they looted. A pretty German woman was crying because they had taken all her valuables. I wanted to help her but the Russians wouldn't listen. I had hated the Germans and wanted to kill them all, but something changed inside me when I saw her tears and the hopelessness on her face."




Johnny Smythe was born on 30th June 1915, in Freetown, the capital of Sierra Leone in West Africa. When Britain declared war on Germany in 1939, Johnny volunteered to help in the war effort and joined the RAF. He was one of only four, out of a batch of ninety men, to complete his training as a Navigator Officer. After spending another year studying to become a navigator, he was posted to a bomber squadron.

SeaFireLIV
03-28-2008, 05:42 AM
While searching for any evidence of black Brit soldiers at dunkirk I discovered this little gem. I`ve seen recollections of Russian pilots, German pilots, British pilots, American pilots, even Black American pilots... but Black British pilots... hmmm

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/johnny.jpg

"We knew what lay ahead of us. Every day we counted the number that returned. We also knew that there was a good chance that we would not return. We met with our first serious trouble during an operation over Mainz in Germany. The plane had several times been pelted by flak and it was in a bad state. Although we lost one of our engines, we still managed to limp back home."

"On one occasion we were flying back over England when a German fighter began to dog us. I saw it first and yelled to the rear gunner, ˜Frank, open up!' It was quite scary because we were flying so low that, had the plane been actually shot down, we wouldn't have had time to bail out! The noise caused by the two aircraft brought our anti-aircraft fire from the ground, which fended off the German fighter, and we were able to land safely. Another lucky escape!"

Johnny Smythe was promoted to Flying Officer. But on his 28th mission, on the night of 18th November 1943, his luck ran out:

"We were flying at 16,000 ft when the fighters came out of nowhere. They raked the fuselage and there were flames everywhere. Then the searchlights caught us. I was hit by shrapnel. Pieces came from underneath, piercing my abdomen, going through my side. Another came through my seat and into my groin. I heard the pilot ordering us to bail out. We had some rough ones before but this seemed to be the end."

Johnny parachuted to the ground and hid in a barn:

"Men in uniform came into the barn where I was hiding behind some straw. Then they opened up, raking the place with automatic fire. I decided to give in. The Germans couldn't believe their eyes. I'm sure that's what saved me from being shot immediately. To see a black man – and an officer at that – was more than they could come to terms with. They just stood there gazing."

In Stalag Luft One, a prisoner-of-war camp for officers in Pomerania, Smythe helped on the escape committee, but couldn't break out himself: "I don't think a six-foot-five black man would've got very far in Pomerania, somehow."

The Russians freed Johnny in 1945, and a Russian Army Officer embraced him and gave him vodka:

"I was fêted because I was black. They took me to a town near the camp and I watched as they looted. A pretty German woman was crying because they had taken all her valuables. I wanted to help her but the Russians wouldn't listen. I had hated the Germans and wanted to kill them all, but something changed inside me when I saw her tears and the hopelessness on her face."




Johnny Smythe was born on 30th June 1915, in Freetown, the capital of Sierra Leone in West Africa. When Britain declared war on Germany in 1939, Johnny volunteered to help in the war effort and joined the RAF. He was one of only four, out of a batch of ninety men, to complete his training as a Navigator Officer. After spending another year studying to become a navigator, he was posted to a bomber squadron.

mmitch10
03-28-2008, 05:46 AM
Very interesting post, SeaFire, would you mind posting a link to the source?

SeaFireLIV
03-28-2008, 05:51 AM
This might sound dumb, but how do i actually create a link so it`ll show up here?

Phil_K
03-28-2008, 05:51 AM
I'm sure there were a few Jamaican bomber crewmen. There was one guy who bailed out and escaped back to Britain two or three times. A couple of years ago there was talk of there being a film about him starring Lenny Henry.

At the time he was retired and living in North London (Wembley I think). Can't remember his name, but he was a larger-than-life character.

Worf101
03-28-2008, 06:03 AM
Nice story Seafire. Thanks for the read. Probably the first Black Man some of them had ever seen.

Da Worfster

Bewolf
03-28-2008, 06:05 AM
Interesting read indeed. Thanks for posting http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

However, as odd that may sound, there were actually blacks in the Werhmacht or auxiliary units as well.


http://img190.echo.cx/img190/4579/arabesarmeeallemande25jl.jpg

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/weissent/abw.jpg

blairgowrie
03-28-2008, 06:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
This might sound dumb, but how do i actually create a link so it`ll show up here? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just copy and paste it SeaFire.

SeaFireLIV
03-28-2008, 06:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by blairgowrie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
This might sound dumb, but how do i actually create a link so it`ll show up here? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just copy and paste it SeaFire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That`s what I tried before but every time I go to Paste, paste won`t highlight. I had to do it the hard way by typing the link. Hope it works.

http://www.mgtrust.org/afr2.htm

Interesting, Bewolf.

Thanks, Phil_K I must check on that too!

JtD
03-28-2008, 06:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"I don't think a six-foot-five black man would've got very far in Pomerania, somehow." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

That was good thinking.

Low_Flyer_MkIX
03-28-2008, 07:05 AM
In 'Spitfire: The Biography' by Jonathan Glancey there is a photograph of Flight Sergeant James Hyde, from Trinidad, one of a few black pilots who fought with the RAF. He was killed in action in 1944.


Probably the most famous black WWII R.A.F. Officer:
http://www.search.co.tt/trinidad/ulriccross/biography.html



Vincent Bunting

http://www.wewerethere.defencedynamics.mod.uk/ww2/images/v_bunting_lg.jpg

Vincent Bunting was born in Panama in June 1918 and raised in Kingston, Jamaica. He became a fighter pilot and joined No 611 Squadron in December 1942. After being promoted to Warrant Officer, Bunting served with No 132 Squadron flying Spitfires. In October 1944 he was transferred to No 154 Squadron. Whilst leading a section of Mustang IVs from his squadron on 27th March 1945, Bunting destroyed an enemy aircraft near Lübeck in Germany. In April 1945 he was commissioned as a Pilot Officer and in June he received his last flying post in the RAF, joining No 1 Squadron. Bunting went on to serve in administrative posts before being discharged in 1948.


Cy Grant

http://www.wewerethere.defencedynamics.mod.uk/ww2/images/c_grant_lg.jpg

Born in Guyana, Cy Grant volunteered for the RAF at the start of the war. He became a navigator and served with 103 Squadron. His Lancaster bomber was shot down on his third mission over Holland on the night of 25th June 1943 during an attack on the Ruhr valley. The crew had to parachute out of the plane and five of the seven survived. Grant was a prisoner of war in Germany for the next two years. His war memoir, "A Member of the Royal Air Force of Indeterminate Race", is published by Woodfield Publishing (2006).

After the war he qualified as a Barrister-at-Law but went into show business where he pursued a successful career. He was a Chairman/ Co-founder of the Drum Arts Centre in the 1970s and Director of Concord Multicultural Arts in the 1980s.



John Henry Smythe (See original post)

http://www.wewerethere.defencedynamics.mod.uk/ww2/images/j_smythe_lg.jpg

John Henry Smythe was born in Sierra Leone. He served with the Sierra Leone Defence Corps before volunteering for the RAF as a navigator. On the night of 18th November 1943 he was the navigator aboard a Short Stirling III heavy bomber of No 623 Squadron, one of 395 aircraft dispatched to attack the German city of Mannheim. The aircraft was crippled by anti-aircraft fire, and the crew was forced to parachute from the stricken aircraft. They were captured and spent the next 18 months in a prisoner of war camp. After the war Smythe stayed in the RAF until 1951 and in 1978 he received an OBE. He died in 1996 in Thame, Oxfordshire


http://www.wewerethere.defencedynamics.mod.uk/ww2/images/a_weeks_lg.jpg

Flying Officer Arthur O Weeks, from Barbados, and Flight Sergeant Collins A Joseph of Trinidad, photographed while serving as pilots with No 132 Squadron RAF Fighter Command in 1943.


More interesting, if brief, stuff on the history of British & Commonwealth black and Asian servicemen and women here - it's where I nicked the pics from, lots more there:
http://www.wewerethere.defencedynamics.mod.uk

SeaFireLIV
03-28-2008, 07:08 AM
Real thanks, Low_Flyer_MkIX.

I gotta admit feeling slightly ashamed that I didn`t know about this other stuff.

thanks again.

FlatSpinMan
03-28-2008, 08:12 AM
Very interesting stuff guys. Thanks for posting it.

Friendly_flyer
03-28-2008, 08:12 AM
Thanks for the link LowFlyer! It's very interesting to see the RAF employing coloured men in mixed squadrons. I wonder how they felt and where treated, compared to the more famous purely coloured group the Red Tails of the USAF.

Feathered_IV
03-28-2008, 08:26 AM
As a kid, when reading books written by RAF pilots, many would mention Rhodesian or South African squadron members. I always assumed these pilots were black. Later on, it came as quite a shock when I discovered that they weren't.

SeaFireLIV
03-28-2008, 09:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:
Thanks for the link LowFlyer! It's very interesting to see the RAF employing coloured men in mixed squadrons. I wonder how they felt and where treated, compared to the more famous purely coloured group the Red Tails of the USAF. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This, for me, spells a fundamental difference between the British and the US attitude to blacks in the military at the time. While Blacks had to create their own squad to participate, the Brits just took those that qualified and integrated.

Now of course, Black British pilots had a pretty rough time with racism as well as American, don`t get me wrong, but I preferred the Brits way of doing it. I prefer it because it negates the `them and us` attitude to some degree.

Aaron_GT
03-28-2008, 10:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm sure there were a few Jamaican bomber crewmen. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There were. I think the main cadre came in post Battle of Britain, and I am not sure how many Jamaican (or other Carribbean) pilots there were in the Battle of Britain.

The voice pack in the game represents a number of accents from within UK and the Commonwealth to pay tribute to those who fought under RAF colours, but it's not a complete set as there are only so many voice slots. Maybe in SOW there will be more scope for adding in more voices, from both the Carribbean, and also Eastern Europe to honour a greater slice of those who fought.

Airmail109
03-28-2008, 12:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bewolf:
Interesting read indeed. Thanks for posting http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

However, as odd that may sound, there were actually blacks in the Werhmacht or auxiliary units as well.


http://img190.echo.cx/img190/4579/arabesarmeeallemande25jl.jpg

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/weissent/abw.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your actually ****ting me right?

I mean, seriously? Really? You have gotta be sodding joking

jadger
03-28-2008, 12:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
Your actually ****ting me right?

I mean, seriously? Really? You have gotta be sodding joking </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no, there were indians and Muslims in the Waffen SS service as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Legion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeri_Waffen_SS_Volunteer_Formations

Airmail109
03-28-2008, 12:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jadger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
Your actually ****ting me right?

I mean, seriously? Really? You have gotta be sodding joking </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no, there were indians and Muslims in the Waffen SS service as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Legion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeri_Waffen_SS_Volunteer_Formations </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

berg417448
03-28-2008, 12:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jadger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
Your actually ****ting me right?

I mean, seriously? Really? You have gotta be sodding joking </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no, there were indians and Muslims in the Waffen SS service as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Legion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeri_Waffen_SS_Volunteer_Formations </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Foreigners in German service:

http://www.feldgrau.com/foreign.html

Xiolablu3
03-28-2008, 12:28 PM
Certainly Muslims, Hitler was pleased to have such fanatical people on his side, as he stated that they were not as afraid to die as the average white person, because their religion promised them a better afterlife.

A perfect 'Afterlife' is a ridiculous notion to me, like giving some kind of reward for studying a certain religion. You can get people to do anything you want if they believe this.

Also many of the Arabs fought for the germans in Egypt and Africa.

If only people would stop trying to get into heaven by commiting ridiculous acts, and create it on earth instead.

SeaFireLIV
03-28-2008, 12:31 PM
I did hear about a Muslim Waffen SS unit in Russia I think it was. Not sure of how it happened, but I do recall reading how the standard Nazis wanted the muslims to enjoy christmas by drinking alcohol. Anyway, eventually, the friction started some kind of mini-rebellion, not sure how it worked out.

Heard of some blacks recruited in the afrika Korp, but more as scouts or guides, not as one of `them`.

Not sure about the picture of the guy in the middle picture though... It`s hard to tell if he`s black or even muslim. no obvious facial features, just a bit dark. Could even be touched up.

jarink
03-28-2008, 12:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:
Thanks for the link LowFlyer! It's very interesting to see the RAF employing coloured men in mixed squadrons. I wonder how they felt and where treated, compared to the more famous purely coloured group the Red Tails of the USAF. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This, for me, spells a fundamental difference between the British and the US attitude to blacks in the military at the time. While Blacks had to create their own squad to participate, the Brits just took those that qualified and integrated.

Now of course, Black British pilots had a pretty rough time with racism as well as American, don`t get me wrong, but I preferred the Brits way of doing it. I prefer it because it negates the `them and us` attitude to some degree. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What makes the conditions that created the Tuskeegee Airmen so odd is that these conditions didn't exist until after 1900. (There was one black pilot that served in France with the US Army Flying Service; his name was Eugene Bullard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Bullard). He had served previously with the French Forign Legion and the Lafeyette Flying Corps. You might say he was an exception to the rule.)

My understading is that there were several reasons for having racially segregated units, not all of them valid. Chief among those reasons would be a perception that blacks (and other racial minorities, such as Native Americans) were intellectually inferior and could not grasp the intracies of modern industrial warfare. The other big reason was to avoid racial tension within units as racism was still a large part of the American culture, especially in the south. (This reason actually had some merit to it, I think.)

Phil_K
03-28-2008, 12:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
The voice pack in the game represents a number of accents from within UK and the Commonwealth to pay tribute to those who fought under RAF colours, but it's not a complete set as there are only so many voice slots. Maybe in SOW there will be more scope for adding in more voices, from both the Carribbean, and also Eastern Europe to honour a greater slice of those who fought. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A bit of Jamaican patois in the voice packs would enhance IL-2 no end.

"I is havin' da gangstas on me tail, innit?"

Xiolablu3
03-28-2008, 12:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:

Not sure about the picture of the guy in the middle picture though... It`s hard to tell if he`s black or even muslim. no obvious facial features, just a bit dark. Could even be touched up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

+1

Heliopause
03-28-2008, 01:36 PM
Nice info on those pilots!

-I remember seeing some footage a couple of years ago of german infantrist in a Ju 52, one of them being black. The program was about the invasion of Norway. Maybe the footage belonged to that invasion, not sure.
-In berlin a number of black people worked in the film industry. Goebbels 's filmindustry needed them for some of the exotic movies. They lived and worked there without much fuss.

-The Waffen ss muslims came from Yugoslavia I believe.

HuninMunin
03-28-2008, 01:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Certainly Muslims, Hitler was pleased to have such fanatical people on his side, as he stated that they were not as afraid to die as the average white person, because their religion promised them a better afterlife.

A perfect 'Afterlife' is a ridiculous notion to me, like giving some kind of reward for studying a certain religion. You can get people to do anything you want if they believe this.

Also many of the Arabs fought for the germans in Egypt and Africa.

If only people would stop trying to get into heaven by commiting ridiculous acts, and create it on earth instead. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

African natives ( not just Arabs) fought with the AK because they wanted to fight against the British.
That and the fact that the AK had been prepared pretty well how to behave in the islamic cultural enviourment and gained a lot of respect from them.
Some lines from the "Der Islam - Tornisterschrift", 1941:

1. Sei Dir stets bewußt, dass der Islam eine hochstehende Religion ist, die dem Christentum in der Auffassung von Gott nicht nachsteht.
2. Begegne daher dem Muslim mit der gleichen Achtung und Duldsamkeit, wie Christen verschiedener Konfession einander immer begegnen sollen.
3. Wünschst Du über den Islam Dich mit einem Muslim zu unterhalten, so tue es nur auf der Grundlage der Gleichberechtigung Deiner und seiner Religion.

I don't have the time to translate, sorry.
I think an online translation will suffice in this case tough http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"If only people would stop trying to get into heaven by commiting ridiculous acts, and create it on earth instead."

100 % agreed.
Well said.

SeaFireLIV
03-28-2008, 03:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Phil_K:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
The voice pack in the game represents a number of accents from within UK and the Commonwealth to pay tribute to those who fought under RAF colours, but it's not a complete set as there are only so many voice slots. Maybe in SOW there will be more scope for adding in more voices, from both the Carribbean, and also Eastern Europe to honour a greater slice of those who fought. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A bit of Jamaican patois in the voice packs would enhance IL-2 no end.

"I is havin' da gangstas on me tail, innit?" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol.

buzzsaw1939
03-28-2008, 03:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Certainly Muslims, Hitler was pleased to have such fanatical people on his side, as he stated that they were not as afraid to die as the average white person, because their religion promised them a better afterlife.

A perfect 'Afterlife' is a ridiculous notion to me, like giving some kind of reward for studying a certain religion. You can get people to do anything you want if they believe this.

Also many of the Arabs fought for the germans in Egypt and Africa.

If only people would stop trying to get into heaven by commiting ridiculous acts, and create it on earth instead. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutly!.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

DuxCorvan
03-28-2008, 04:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by blairgowrie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
This might sound dumb, but how do i actually create a link so it`ll show up here? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just copy and paste it SeaFire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That`s what I tried before but every time I go to Paste, paste won`t highlight. I had to do it the hard way by typing the link. Hope it works. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ctrl+V, m8.

BTW, I think you guys will find this interesting (http://www.worldhistoryblog.com/2006/07/oliver-law.html).

Friendly_flyer
03-28-2008, 04:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:
Some lines from the "Der Islam - Tornisterschrift", 1941:

1. Sei Dir stets bewußt, dass der Islam eine hochstehende Religion ist, die dem Christentum in der Auffassung von Gott nicht nachsteht.
2. Begegne daher dem Muslim mit der gleichen Achtung und Duldsamkeit, wie Christen verschiedener Konfession einander immer begegnen sollen.
3. Wünschst Du über den Islam Dich mit einem Muslim zu unterhalten, so tue es nur auf der Grundlage der Gleichberechtigung Deiner und seiner Religion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Transl:

1. Always be conscious about that the Islam is a higher religion, and is not inferior to the Christianity in their view of God.
2. Meet Muslim with the same attention and bearing SAMNESS, as Christians are to each other when meeting people of different denomination.
3. If you wish to discuss Islam with a Muslim, then do it only on the basis of the equal rights of his and your religion.

That is a remarkably tolerant and enlightened considering it came from the Nazi establishment! I guess it only goes to show how much the world focus has changed since then.

Choctaw111
03-28-2008, 04:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bewolf:
Interesting read indeed. Thanks for posting http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

However, as odd that may sound, there were actually blacks in the Werhmacht or auxiliary units as well.


http://img190.echo.cx/img190/4579/arabesarmeeallemande25jl.jpg

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/weissent/abw.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really do learn something new every day http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MB_Avro_UK
03-28-2008, 06:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
While searching for any evidence of black Brit soldiers at dunkirk I discovered this little gem. I`ve seen recollections of Russian pilots, German pilots, British pilots, American pilots, even Black American pilots... but Black British pilots... hmmm

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/johnny.jpg

"We knew what lay ahead of us. Every day we counted the number that returned. We also knew that there was a good chance that we would not return. We met with our first serious trouble during an operation over Mainz in Germany. The plane had several times been pelted by flak and it was in a bad state. Although we lost one of our engines, we still managed to limp back home."

"On one occasion we were flying back over England when a German fighter began to dog us. I saw it first and yelled to the rear gunner, ˜Frank, open up!' It was quite scary because we were flying so low that, had the plane been actually shot down, we wouldn't have had time to bail out! The noise caused by the two aircraft brought our anti-aircraft fire from the ground, which fended off the German fighter, and we were able to land safely. Another lucky escape!"

Johnny Smythe was promoted to Flying Officer. But on his 28th mission, on the night of 18th November 1943, his luck ran out:

"We were flying at 16,000 ft when the fighters came out of nowhere. They raked the fuselage and there were flames everywhere. Then the searchlights caught us. I was hit by shrapnel. Pieces came from underneath, piercing my abdomen, going through my side. Another came through my seat and into my groin. I heard the pilot ordering us to bail out. We had some rough ones before but this seemed to be the end."

Johnny parachuted to the ground and hid in a barn:

"Men in uniform came into the barn where I was hiding behind some straw. Then they opened up, raking the place with automatic fire. I decided to give in. The Germans couldn't believe their eyes. I'm sure that's what saved me from being shot immediately. To see a black man – and an officer at that – was more than they could come to terms with. They just stood there gazing."

In Stalag Luft One, a prisoner-of-war camp for officers in Pomerania, Smythe helped on the escape committee, but couldn't break out himself: "I don't think a six-foot-five black man would've got very far in Pomerania, somehow."

The Russians freed Johnny in 1945, and a Russian Army Officer embraced him and gave him vodka:

"I was fêted because I was black. They took me to a town near the camp and I watched as they looted. A pretty German woman was crying because they had taken all her valuables. I wanted to help her but the Russians wouldn't listen. I had hated the Germans and wanted to kill them all, but something changed inside me when I saw her tears and the hopelessness on her face."




Johnny Smythe was born on 30th June 1915, in Freetown, the capital of Sierra Leone in West Africa. When Britain declared war on Germany in 1939, Johnny volunteered to help in the war effort and joined the RAF. He was one of only four, out of a batch of ninety men, to complete his training as a Navigator Officer. After spending another year studying to become a navigator, he was posted to a bomber squadron. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Good post Seafire http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif and relates to my thread in OT.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2601013236/m/9991041646

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Tab_Flettner
03-28-2008, 10:09 PM
Hey I posted this in another thread but it fits here too, this is the full story...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/mr_coffee/MahinderSinghPujjiBOBpilot.jpg

Flt. Lt. Mohinder Singh Pujji, a pilot of Royal Air Force who took part in the European campaign was honored along with several living soldiers of World War II by Governor Paul Brijn of Inflanders Province . Flt. Lt. M.S. Pujji has stated, "I was posted to No.253 Squadron RAF, flying Hurricane IIB fighters from RAF Kenley, which is a couple of miles south of Croydon. We were a mixed bunch, with pilots also from Poland , America , Canada and Australia."

http://www.unitedsikhs.org/rtt/TwoWorldWarsandtheSikhs.php

jadger
03-29-2008, 12:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I did hear about a Muslim Waffen SS unit in Russia I think it was. Not sure of how it happened, but I do recall reading how the standard Nazis wanted the muslims to enjoy christmas by drinking alcohol. Anyway, eventually, the friction started some kind of mini-rebellion, not sure how it worked out.

Heard of some blacks recruited in the afrika Korp, but more as scouts or guides, not as one of `them`.

Not sure about the picture of the guy in the middle picture though... It`s hard to tell if he`s black or even muslim. no obvious facial features, just a bit dark. Could even be touched up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

4 posts previous to your post I gave a link that described this:

The 450th Battalion was raised at the town of Legionov, Poland and spent most of the summer patrolling the communications and rail networks between Kharkov and Stalingrad. Discipline became so bad that Meyer-Mader was removed from command of the 450th Battalion during 1943.....

This unit suffered from poor discipline and poor morale especially after Meyer-Mader was killed during a skirmish with partisans in Yuratishki, near Minsk, on March 28, 1944. The situation became worse when the replacement commander, SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer Billig executes 78 unit members for insubordination. This incident made Himmler angry and Billig relieved.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeri_Waffen_SS_Volunteer_Formations

Bearcat99
03-29-2008, 09:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jarink:
What makes the conditions that created the Tuskeegee Airmen so odd is that these conditions didn't exist until after 1900. (There was one black pilot that served in France with the US Army Flying Service; his name was Eugene Bullard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Bullard). He had served previously with the French Forign Legion and the Lafeyette Flying Corps. You might say he was an exception to the rule.)

My understading is that there were several reasons for having racially segregated units, not all of them valid. Chief among those reasons would be a perception that blacks (and other racial minorities, such as Native Americans) were intellectually inferior and could not grasp the intracies of modern industrial warfare. The other big reason was to avoid racial tension within units as racism was still a large part of the American culture, especially in the south. (This reason actually had some merit to it, I think.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are kidding right? By the conditions that created the Tuskegee Airmen.. do you mean the "favorable" ones.. with favorable being a very very relative term....?

While true that Bullard was one of the few black pilots in WWI there was 1 or 2 others, none flying for the U.S... and I believe Bullard was the only one who flew in combat but I lost all my links to that info in my recent HW debacle... but Bullard is the one that stands out most prominently..

As for the valid resons for segregation.. none of them were valid since segregation itslef was founded on an erroneous notion and racism iself was/is an idea that at it's core is fundamentally flawed.

zardozid
03-29-2008, 11:33 AM
http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/weissent/abw.jpg

What am I suppose to be looking for in this picture?

(I don't see Waldo?)


p.s. Nice thread.

Pirschjaeger
03-29-2008, 11:37 AM
Denzel Washington,...second from the left.

If they ever made a movie about this soldier, Denzel would be the best for the part.

Fritz

zardozid
03-29-2008, 11:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Denzel Washington,...second from the left.

If they ever made a movie about this soldier, Denzel would be the best for the part.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He is black?

Where is the picture from, do you know?

SeaFireLIV
03-29-2008, 11:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by zardozid:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Denzel Washington,...second from the left.

If they ever made a movie about this soldier, Denzel would be the best for the part.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
He is black?
Where is the picture from, do you know? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He don`t look it to me and he certainly don`t look like Denzel Washington.

It looks like a white guy darkened up. I`d have to see more info on this particular pic to be convinced...

Friendly_flyer
03-29-2008, 01:16 PM
I don't find him looking particularly black either. He's too light (mixed race Africans where not that common in Europe), and his features aren't very negroid, he's nose is too prominent. I'd say he's possibly got some Moor blood (rather common in Western middle Europe), or he's simply a German with a narrow face and pronounced jaw.

Pirschjaeger
03-29-2008, 02:49 PM
Being the father of a mixed son (Black and White) and having spent a lot of time (years) with Caribbeans, this man looks Black or at least mixed.

Remember, not all Blacks look like they just arrived from Africa.

That's not to say he is 100% for sure Black, but he is obviously not 100% white.

Also, keep in mind that the photo was posted to show that not all Wehrmacht soldiers were White. That was the point.

This man could also easily pass as a Semite from N. Africa. I've lived in N.Africa. The common stereotypes are not good methods for determining who is what.

And yes, he looks like Denzel to me. Are we going to debate something so subjective?

BTW, as I mentioned, my son is mixed and considers himself Black. If anyone thinks having White in the bloodline makes a person not Black, then, I think you'll find more Inuit in the US than you will Black. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Fritz

Bremspropeller
03-29-2008, 04:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It looks like a white guy darkened up. I`d have to see more info on this particular pic to be convinced... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The guy pictured here is the well-known colognian local-hero (he almost succeeded in drinking ten litres of Kölsch in public on Düsseldorf's marketplace) "Würstchen Ulli".

Despite his "non-aryan" descent, he was well liked and popular among his comrades. But there was a dark side about him...well, another dark side! He never succeeded in covering up his preference for Kinderwurst which progressively filled his fellows with disgust.
No packet of Kinderwurst was save from him - never!

His social acceptance dropped to a bottom point when the truth about his, by that time, famed skin-tone was revealed.
It was fake!
Der Führer himself called and wanted a reckless clearing of the case.

Ulli told the Führer that he visited the new Reichs-tanning-bed five times the day all through the week. That clearly impressed the Führer.
For his meritious assistance during the hard-pressed time of the Rechs-tanning-bed in Cologne, he was awarded multiple times and even recieved the honor-citizenship of Cologne.

This brought him the name "Asi Ulli" (Asi short for assistance) which somehow stuck to Cologne's inhabitants till today, as every second person you'll meet there is trying hard to reincarnate Asi Ulli.

The heartwarming story of Asi Ulli still touches Cologne's inhabitants today.
You'll easily win somebody's heart by calling him "Asi Ulli" and inviting him on a glass of Altbier.

SeaFireLIV
03-29-2008, 04:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Being the father of a mixed son (Black and White) and having spent a lot of time (years) with Caribbeans, this man looks Black or at least mixed.

Remember, not all Blacks look like they just arrived from Africa.

That's not to say he is 100% for sure Black, but he is obviously not 100% white.

Also, keep in mind that the photo was posted to show that not all Wehrmacht soldiers were White. That was the point.

This man could also easily pass as a Semite from N. Africa. I've lived in N.Africa. The common stereotypes are not good methods for determining who is what.

And yes, he looks like Denzel to me. Are we going to debate something so subjective?

BTW, as I mentioned, my son is mixed and considers himself Black. If anyone thinks having White in the bloodline makes a person not Black, then, I think you'll find more Inuit in the US than you will Black. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, good, so I know. thanks.

@Pirschjaeger,

I was simply pushing for more than just a picture explanation. One thing i`ve learnt to do is not believe everything posted on the net without any explanation at all behind it (as was the case with that particular photo).

Oh and I do know about black people with very White features too, not really Black at all, mixed-race.

My daughter is mixed race also. (Revealing more about my personal life than I wish now... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif ) She also identifies more as black, though she acknowledges her white side too, I don`t want her getting polarised.

He still doesn`t look like Denzil Washington though... guess it is subjective. Still, quite amazing to see black guys, even just obviously dark ones dressed in Whermacht uniforms...

Don_X
03-29-2008, 05:22 PM
Difficult to research but I did dig this up on the RAF site (cant be more specific -cos my main rigs broke at the mo.)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
It is difficult to determine how many of the volunteers from the Colonies were ethnic minorities as the RAF had no colour bar, and did not allocate distinctive Service Numbers to ethnic personnel nor annoted a personÕs Record of Service with an ethnic origin. Coloured British subjects from the Colonies were eligible to join the RAF on the same terms as white subjects of the Crown. Volunteers came from a wide range of what are now Commonwealth including India (then including Pakistan), Burma, Nigeria, Fiji, Ceylon, Singapore, and New Zealand but the West Indies provided the largest number of volunteers, 3,720 from Jamaica alone were serving in 1945. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been researching 139 sqn, and this interview with Ulric Cross is worth a read.
'THE DAY I ALMOST DIED' (http://www.search.co.tt/trinidad/ulriccross/biography.html)

MB_Avro_UK
03-29-2008, 05:31 PM
Hi all,

This link is interesting. I cannot verify it's accuracy but it's worthy of discussion.It relates to the massacres of French Black troops from west Africa.

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/bookrev/scheck.html

This is an extract from the above link:

&lt;Tragically, during the hardest-fought period in the (1940) French campaign, up to 3,000 of these Tirailleurs Senegalais prisoners were evidently massacred by German soldiers. The murder of enemy prisoners"”by members of both sides"”did occur during the war, but the sheer number of losses incurred by the Tirailleurs over a relatively short period of time raises serious questions. The author does a masterful job of crafting coherent background information to explain the circumstances surrounding these massacres.

As part of his analysis, Scheck discusses many aspects of the history of the racism in Germany that likely led to attitudes prevalent within Nazi society at the time"”for example, what became known as the "Black Horror," involving the stationing of black soldiers in the Rhineland following World War I. Several incidents took place between these soldiers and the indigenous population, especially the births of many mixed-race children. Appalled, Nazi leadership called for the forced sterilization of these children, and German propaganda worked overtime to portray blacks as savages and "sex crazed perverts." Because of these efforts, a strong antiblack foundation arose in the new Germany. Likewise, as a colonial power in Africa (1904–7), Germany eliminated more than 150,000 blacks during a series of uprisings. In addition, Germans noted similar treatment of blacks caught fighting for the Union during the US Civil War, as well as US treatment of Mexicans, native Americans, and Filipinos during conflicts with those people.

All of these factors helped to create an atmosphere conducive to committing the atrocities described in this book. The author eloquently explains concepts such as the criterion for sanctioned massacre and five situational factors that led to the killing of black prisoners. Interestingly, Scheck's research revealed that when all is said and done, apparently no German government directive ordered soldiers to kill these prisoners. Most likely, the ferocity of battle, latent racism, and the effects of having seen fellow soldiers killed in combat"”many hacked apart by knife-wielding West Africans"”combined to motivate the Germans to act as they did. In fact, many German units refused to kill black prisoners at all, and after August 1940"”the most desperate time for the Germans and French"”little or no killing of prisoners occurred.&gt;

This is a complex subject and new to me.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

SeaFireLIV
03-29-2008, 05:39 PM
Some is as I always suspected, but some of it is new to me as well.

MB_Avro_UK
03-29-2008, 05:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Don_X:
Difficult to research but I did dig this up on the RAF site (cant be more specific -cos my main rigs broke at the mo.)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
It is difficult to determine how many of the volunteers from the Colonies were ethnic minorities as the RAF had no colour bar, and did not allocate distinctive Service Numbers to ethnic personnel nor annoted a personÕs Record of Service with an ethnic origin. Coloured British subjects from the Colonies were eligible to join the RAF on the same terms as white subjects of the Crown. Volunteers came from a wide range of what are now Commonwealth including India (then including Pakistan), Burma, Nigeria, Fiji, Ceylon, Singapore, and New Zealand but the West Indies provided the largest number of volunteers, 3,720 from Jamaica alone were serving in 1945. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been researching 139 sqn, and this interview with Ulric Cross is worth a read.
'THE DAY I ALMOST DIED' (http://www.search.co.tt/trinidad/ulriccross/biography.html) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excellent post and thanks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Pirschjaeger
03-29-2008, 06:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
As part of his analysis, Scheck discusses many aspects of the history of the racism in Germany that likely led to attitudes prevalent within Nazi society at the time"”for example, what became known as the "Black Horror," involving the stationing of black soldiers in the Rhineland following World War I. Several incidents took place between these soldiers and the indigenous population, especially the births of many mixed-race children. Appalled, Nazi leadership called for the forced sterilization of these children, and German propaganda worked overtime to portray blacks as savages and "sex crazed perverts.

This is a complex subject and new to me.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This one is a very very sensitive one. At the end of the war German women and girls were rounded up and put in subway tunnels. After, the Black soldiers were sent down. It was a vengeance thing.

This resulted in a hatred for the Blacks and mixed babies. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Fritz

jadger
03-29-2008, 11:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> ikewise, as a colonial power in Africa (1904–7), Germany eliminated more than 150,000 blacks during a series of uprisings </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was not truly a genocide IMHO. The natives rebelled and murdered many German settlers, and the Germans fought back, defeating the rebels and forcing them to retreat. The only place they could retreat to was into the desert and that is where most of those 150 000 died, of starvation and thirst. The black rebels didn't fight alone, their families were with them on the march, so many women and children died in this retreat.

Friendly_flyer
03-30-2008, 02:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jadger:
That was not truly a genocide IMHO. The natives rebelled and murdered many German settlers, and the Germans fought back, defeating the rebels and forcing them to retreat. The only place they could retreat to was into the desert and that is where most of those 150 000 died, of starvation and thirst. The black rebels didn't fight alone, their families were with them on the march, so many women and children died in this retreat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I seem to remember that the prototype concentration-camps where built during these wars, giving it all the nasty hallmarks of genocide. It should be noted that this was not unique to German areas though.

jadger
03-30-2008, 11:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jadger:
That was not truly a genocide IMHO. The natives rebelled and murdered many German settlers, and the Germans fought back, defeating the rebels and forcing them to retreat. The only place they could retreat to was into the desert and that is where most of those 150 000 died, of starvation and thirst. The black rebels didn't fight alone, their families were with them on the march, so many women and children died in this retreat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I seem to remember that the prototype concentration-camps where built during these wars, giving it all the nasty hallmarks of genocide. It should be noted that this was not unique to German areas though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

...Earlier von Trotha issued an ultimatum to the Herero people, denying them the right of being German subjects and ordering them to leave the country, or be killed. In order to escape, the Herero retreated into the waterless Omaheke region, a western arm of the Kalahari Desert, where many of them died of thirst.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_South-West_Africa

no mention of concentration camps.

Low_Flyer_MkIX
03-30-2008, 05:37 PM
German minister says sorry for genocide in Namibia (2004):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/aug/16/germany.andrewmeldrum

"When the order was lifted at the end of the year, prisoners were herded into camps and allocated as slave labour to German businesses, where many died of overwork and malnutrition.Some two-thirds of the Herero were killed."


And on Wiki there is indeed mention of concentration camps:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_Genocide

"Survivors, mostly women and children, were eventually put in concentration camps, such as that at Shark Island, similar to those used in British South Africa during the Second Boer War. The German authorities gave each Herero a number and meticulously recorded every death, whether in the camps or from forced labor, even including the name of each dead person in their reports. German enterprises were able to rent Hereros in order to use their manpower, and workers' deaths were permitted, and even reported to the German authorities. Forced labour, disease, and malnutrition killed an estimated 50–80% of the entire Herero population by 1908, when the camps were closed."

jadger
03-31-2008, 12:46 AM
FOCK!!! I just wrote a big long reply then clicked on another thread and it closed this one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I hate that thing about this forum.


to sum up what I was saying though. That Guardian article misquotes and mis-translates the former-foreign aid minister. Look up other sources and you will see what I mean BBC article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3565938.stm)

she says really that, by today's definition, it could be called a genocide, but as there were no laws at the time, it was not. The whole purpose of this statement was to point out that there is a $4 billion dollar lawsuit against the German government by the Hereros, and shows that the Herero have no legal leg to stand on.

also, that wikipedia article is trash, did you actually read it? not to mention that statement you quoted from wiki is totally uncited. the only reliable statements from wikipedia are ones directly cited. One "source" for that wikipedia article for instance, states that only a couple hundred herero survived.

for an example of the Guardian's mis-translation, see the huge difference in meaning between it and the BBC article on one sentence quoted.

BBC:"Everything I said in my speech was an apology for crimes committed under German colonial rule"

Guardian:"Everything I have said was an apology from the German government"

BIG difference in meaning, huge mistranslation by the Guardian. Also, the Guardian only half quotes the former foreign aid minister, "The atrocities committed at that time would have been termed genocide" What they leave out is that she says by today's laws, it would be termed genocide. This was only stated because the Herero are losing a $4 billion lawsuit against the German government right now, the German government's stance being that they did not break any international law that was in place at the time, so governments can not be held accountable for things that were not illegal at the time. If the Herero were to win their case (which they won't) then the UK, USA, France, Belguim, Netherlands and every other colonial power will be at the mercy of small native groups handing out lawsuits.

Aaron_GT
03-31-2008, 03:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">A bit of Jamaican patois in the voice packs would enhance IL-2 no end </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be unlikely. For one reason RAF radio discipline would mitigate against it, the other being that the Carribbean aircrew the RAF had were often quite educated (university graduates, etc.)

Don_X
04-01-2008, 04:58 AM
More info on colonial aircrew in the RAF here:-

CULTURAL & ORGANIZATIONAL HERITAGE (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/F220517C_C37F_4A1E_C1A831E90982A73E.pdf)

DmdSeeker
04-01-2008, 05:38 PM
I'm surprised no one mentioned this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._R._Braithwaite

To Sir, with love was an iconic sixties film, and I used to love the TV spin off: Please, Sir.

Don_X
04-02-2008, 08:32 PM
You could also mention <UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> Michael Manley (Jamaican Prime Minister) - RCAF
<LI>Errol Walton Barrow (the first Prime Minister of Barbados) RAF
<LI>Jamaican Vincent Buntin - flew in the Battle of Britain.
[/list]