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View Full Version : What is il2 to you..a Game..a Sim...WW2 history..or anything else?



MB_Avro_UK
10-28-2008, 05:24 PM
Hi all,

Or maybe a combination of all?

There will possibly come a point in the follow-on SoW series when almost any WW2 Mission/Battle/Campaign can be recreated.

Not only in the air, but also on the sea and ground.

Would there be any historical missions that you would not feel comfortable taking part in?

And why?


Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

MB_Avro_UK
10-28-2008, 05:24 PM
Hi all,

Or maybe a combination of all?

There will possibly come a point in the follow-on SoW series when almost any WW2 Mission/Battle/Campaign can be recreated.

Not only in the air, but also on the sea and ground.

Would there be any historical missions that you would not feel comfortable taking part in?

And why?


Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

mmitch10
10-28-2008, 05:39 PM
To me it's a game, purely for entertainment. Before I stared playing it I knew next to nothing about the Eastern front or the PTO, so I suppose it's been educational too.

As for missions I would feel uncomfortable with...tricky question. I don't think so, as it is only a game and my actions have no consequence. However, there may be some actions that might make me pause for thought, for example delivering an A bomb or the naval action at Mers-el-Kebir.

Good post Avro, it made me think.

Bearcat99
10-28-2008, 06:01 PM
For me it is more sim than game.. I think a game would be something more like Blazing Angels. IMO because you can do a lot of real world stuff in this sim as far as navigation (OK. I know we don't have logitude & latitude but you can still navigate to a degree.. ) and apply many real world tactics it is more sim than game.

JSG72
10-28-2008, 06:27 PM
For myself. It has been a Lifetime of reading about and imagining. The reality of aerial warfare.
It is not a Socio-Psycological thing.
Just ManMachine against machine. Within whatever conflict/context I see fit. Within my knowledge of history.

Being able to compare and contrast the machines I have read about, over the years.Is what I bought this Sim and a computer for.
It has not given me an overal insight into War. But it has made me appreciate the limitations of "Man and Machine". Pitted against one another. Within the confines of the atmosphere.

Others may like "Blowing up Stuff" Within their own perceived environment. (That's Cool to).
I try to keep it real within the depth of my knowledge,of what actually happened in WW2.

There is nothing else comes close. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Low_Flyer_MkIX
10-28-2008, 06:37 PM
It's the train set I never had as a kid.

Granted, you could debate the merits, and pervert the justifications of signing up to follow National Socialism and it's use of slave labour to attempt a means that would justify the end, atomic warfare or dehousing the population of an enemy state by non-too accurate carpet bombing - but at the end of the day such matters are beyond our control or experience. Are you egotistcal enough to put yourself forward as a spokesman for events thet occured within living memory yet before you you were born?

It is what it is; just be thankful you're free to play the game - thanks to the sacrifice of those that have gone before us.

jolly_magpie
10-28-2008, 06:59 PM
Well said LF.

WTE_Galway
10-28-2008, 07:29 PM
I do not really play games of any type much anymore. Not even miniatures games like Flames of War.

My interest (sparked by IL2) has moved on to more general WWII history although I would not say I know that much about it yet.

This forum is a source of constant amusement but the game itself has become more like a 3D viewer to check skins and mission I create.

Tab_Flettner
10-28-2008, 07:45 PM
Oh its a lifestyle.....definately

R_Target
10-28-2008, 09:15 PM
These days, IL2 is usually a skin viewer.

na85
10-28-2008, 09:23 PM
IMO people who make a big deal about the differences between a game and a sim are silly.

It's a program you run on your computer for entertainment purposes. Regardless of how seriously you take it, how is that anything but a game?

Choctaw111
10-28-2008, 09:38 PM
This is an interesting question.
I cannot in good conscience call this a game, but I don't like typing "sim" all the time either, even though it is.
Since the early 80's I have been flying every conceivable flight/combat flight sim in the patience for something like Il2 to come along. Now here it is and it is extraordinary (still).
I get so much enjoyment out of a product that does not suffer from the repetition and staleness that most other games are afflicted with.
Il2 has impacted my life more than any other PC program...period. And I have learned so much about PC's and many PC programs as a result of Il2.
I have also made friends though Il2, which is something that no other PC related game/sim/program can claim.
Imagine if all folks who had Il2 wore some type of Il2 apparel, so when they met in passing, they knew they had Il2 in common. They would talk for hours having never met before that time. Just a thought.
There is a word to describe Il2 for the question posted here, I am just not thinking of it at this time.

WTE_Galway
10-28-2008, 09:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by R_Target:
These days, IL2 is usually a skin viewer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

+1


In fact I know quite a few people who use Il2 as an engine for creating what is basically 3D profile art, screenshots and movies and never fly it as a game or sim ... ever.

Woke_Up_Dead
10-28-2008, 11:00 PM
It's a test of wits and skills for me, that's why the online component is so great. Can't always play tennis because of the weather, can't always find enough people to play roller-hockey with and against, the motorists don't like it when I race them in traffic on my bicycle, and the wife is a little tired of trading punches with me, but there is always someone willing to put up a good fight and usually kick my *** online. I think it will become part of my competition fix during the winter months.

Skoshi Tiger
10-28-2008, 11:32 PM
I used IL2 as therapy for my compulse obsesive behaviour which, before I got into IL2, expressed it's self in making chain maile and buying LOTR Swords off ebay.

At first my wife used to humour me due to the fact that IL2 was a lot cheaper and she was ****ed off stepping on bent bit's of wire lying around the house and the scratches on the floor boards! (Don't even mention the hole in her new leather sofa)

Since then I think I've just transposed my obsesiveness to IL2 and I my wifes looking forward to a break when the two Hobbit films get released in a couple of years time.

I haven't had the heart to tell her about SOW yet!

rnzoli
10-29-2008, 03:16 AM
Something else: a waste of time.

SterlingX
10-29-2008, 03:23 AM
Really difficult and challenging (therefore more fun) Counter-Strike. But that's wearing off now, even though I stick to flying underdog airplanes most of the time, to keep it interesting. You wouldn't believe how good a dogfighter A-20s and B-25s really are http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
But also, off course, as close at it gets to flying WW2 warbirds and WW2 dogfighting.

larschance
10-29-2008, 10:45 AM
Agree with JSG72 wholeheartedly. Read the histories and memoires over many years dreaming about flying the aircraft and wondering what a near real dogfight would be like. Your life is never under threat so that part is missing thankfully but it does make you appreciate the achievements of those who went before us.
Would any of us at age 17 or 18 have been able to climb into a Zero or 109 or Hurricane or P40 to face superior aircraft and numbers.
As for improper missions I guess there are some that apall such as shooting pilots on their chutes or strafing civilian refugees but pilots of all nations did this, usually as individuals. Some were for revenge, others because they were sadists or bullies, others blindly followed orders due to conditioning. War allows these basic instincts to surface for better or worse. I once talked to a Typhoon pilot who was involved in the Falaise Gap slaughter in 44. He said it was a guilty thrill to unleash a torrent of firepower on packed and defenceless enemy troops rather like a little boy enjoys smashing a toy. The thought that those troops had been or could be killing his allies helped assuade any guilt.

dirkpit7
10-29-2008, 12:27 PM
It is a game, but a game that has affected me amazingly much. I started flying IL-2 about two years ago. Before that I was interested in history and WW2 in general level, but military aviation didn't mean anything special to me. In a few months I was totally excited about it, reading and watching documents about WW2 planes and flying IL-2. I can say that 99% of the knowledge about WW2 aviation I have now is because of IL-2. Not that the game has taught me everything, but it sparked my interest.

It also "unleashed" my interest in aviation in general. I had been excited about aircraft before, but only recently have actually realized how much I like them. So much that pilot has become my dream job.

I had my call-up for military just weeks before I discovered IL-2. I requested to serve in the navy, and was approved. If I had been flying IL-2 before the call-up, I think I would have tried to get in the air force. I don't know if I would have been accepted, but if I had been, fighter pilot might have become my job. It's interesting how much this game could have changed my life.

P.FunkAdelic
10-29-2008, 12:38 PM
Its an experience for me. Its also a challenge. Its something I can push myself to do. To learn. I take it seriously (or else I wouldn't buy this equipment for it!).

As for reprehensible missions, well frankly if you've ever played an FPS where you get rewarded for blowing someone's head into a splatter on a wall... really if you have qualms then you shouldn't be playing games about war.

If a mission pushes you too close to something immoral then don't do it but its nothing like reality. I'd never kill, maybe not even if war. In a game I'm desperate to be #1 in slaughter.

VF-17_Jolly
10-29-2008, 01:10 PM
IL2 is an excuse to spend lots of money and sit in a corner till some stupid hour in the morning and ignoring my wife and family
(well that`s what she says http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif )

HELP!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

general_kalle
10-29-2008, 01:27 PM
its a game - yes,
its a sim - Indeed and thats why i fly IL" particular

however its also a nice source to ww2 history.
but most of all.
its the awesome feeling of flying an airplane during a war which i think facinates us all.

P.FunkAdelic
10-29-2008, 02:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by general_kalle:
its the awesome feeling of flying an airplane during a war which i think facinates us all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Its a fetish. We now we should hate war and don't want to take part in one but somehow we're fascinated by it.

HayateAce
10-29-2008, 02:52 PM
http://www.gearlog.com/images/13706.jpg

MB_Avro_UK
10-29-2008, 04:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mmitch10:
To me it's a game, purely for entertainment. Before I stared playing it I knew next to nothing about the Eastern front or the PTO, so I suppose it's been educational too.

As for missions I would feel uncomfortable with...tricky question. I don't think so, as it is only a game and my actions have no consequence. However, there may be some actions that might make me pause for thought, for example delivering an A bomb or the naval action at Mers-el-Kebir.

Good post Avro, it made me think. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Your reply is interesting http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif At what point do we feel 'uncomfortable'.

It's been said by WW2 pilots in the main that they were only shooting down planes and not trying to kill the occupants.

Did tank crews have the same attitude when they fired at an enemy tank? Were they equally divorced from killing as were fighter pilots?
Did they fire upon tank crews bailing out?

And for how long will SoW develop? Il2 has had a life so far of almost 10 years. What will we be seeing as regards SoW 10 years ahead?

The 'war' experience for players could reach depths of immersion beyond our imagination today.

Immersion is vital IMHO.

But how much immersion would you accept?

Maybe I'm thinking too deeply here...


Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

SeaFireLIV
10-29-2008, 05:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:

Immersion is vital IMHO.

But how much immersion would you accept?

Maybe I'm thinking too deeply here...


MB_Avro. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not really. IL2 for me is quite a serious business because it`s based on a very serious time that affects us all in some way. For me it`s one of those wars that was worth fighting.

I would take max immersion in a new sim. If that means seeing my virtual pixel blood splattered on the cockpit because an enemy bullet hit me in the arm, so be it. If the gunner is splattered to the four winds inside his HE111 due to a flak explosion, so be it. If it happened, allow it.

Far Cry has some very immersive 1st person effects of suffering from wounds, taking hits and trying to help your own buddies. I could imagine, as happened in farCRy 2, taking shrapnel in one arm and having to spend a moment to wrap a bloody cloth about your arm to stop the bleeding. When you get too close to fire you have to patter out the flames before it kills you and even refix your arm cos it became dislocated in the fighting.

It maybe be too much for some (it could be optional). But I would I would really wish this.

I hope immersive effects like Far Cry 2 will be included, but I do not expect it.

Of course, there are other aspects to immersion too, such as landing and seeing an animated ground crew run to pull you out your cockpit and service your aircraft.

WTE_Galway
10-29-2008, 05:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:

It's been said by WW2 pilots in the main that they were only shooting down planes and not trying to kill the occupants.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is an interview I read a while back (sorry no link) with a "career" RAF fighter pilot who had been with the RAF since before the war who said the older more professional pilots were often quite disgusted with the way some of the younger new recruits "reveled in the killing" and that it caused problems.

In Australia at least, the psychological profile looked for in a prospective RAAF fighter pilot is calm detached professional and efficient. Quite the opposite of many online IL2 jocks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

squareusr
10-30-2008, 04:51 PM
A game, that has some very specific characteristics because of the simulation aspect:

#1: complexity, you never reach a point where you get the feeling that you can't become better anymore, given your personal limits in reaction speed.

#2: a certain form of suspension of disbelief that is created by replacing arbitrary game designer decisions ("lets make the blast of those rockets a little bigger, compensated by a slower movement speed it will create more interesting fights, oh, and the teleporter should be more shiny!") with best-effort approximations of given facts, or at least rumors. Still creates a lot of discussions about the quality of the approximation (just take a look this little forum here), but it gives much more weight to the way things are in the sim/game. Nobody complains about the presence of imbalance (no "not fair! US have better armor and more guns than Japs!"), complaints are limited to details of things like diving performance at certain heights or even the refractive properties of the windscreen. Those are all details that would not even exist in a game designed from the ground up.

In a designed game, every side would have exactly one light and fast fighter, one heavy and slow fighter (with a special weapon!), one 4-engined bomber, one helicopter, one jet for the final levels and one mythical thing along the lines of a flying carpet (IL2 has only Lerche in that category http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). Each of these would have a few well-balanced and completely arbitrary strenghts and weaknesses and strictly follow the screaming colors and wild shapes of that faction's ridiculous design scheme.

Who would ever think of trading the subtlety of IL2 for something like that? IL2 is a game, and it is a very high quality game because it simulates. But even if all the quality of IL2 as a game comes from the simulation aspect, the thought of someone enjoying IL2 thinking of it not as a game but only as a simulation still remains scary.

triad773
10-30-2008, 06:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
Or maybe a combination of all?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's it for me. I consider the fact that I learned more about history from playing or making campaigns & missions. And of course, had fun in the process http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Cheers

Triad