PDA

View Full Version : So we play as the oppressors?



Emhyrius
06-29-2018, 05:32 PM
It is no secret that Sparta had a major slave population, everything done in sparta's society was done by slaves. will we be able to see this reflected in the game or are we just ignoring history and making sparta good because they look badass?

RafSwi77
06-29-2018, 08:15 PM
Oh but Athens also had slaves and they probably had the largest population of chattel slaves in ancient Greece. Generally speaking slavery was very common in Ancient Greece.

Helots in Sparta were not like chattel slaves, but more like medieval serfs. They were tied to the land and owned to the state, where in Athens they were tied to their masters.

In Sparta Helots enjoyed privileges that chattel slaves in Athens did not. They lived in family units, could marry at will and raise their own children. They could also retain half of their earnings. Their emancipation was common during the Peloponnesian War (with the completion of military service). On the other hand slaves in other Greek cities had no family life and even their children belonged their masters. The fruits of their labor also belonged to their masters.

I am not sure, but I think that if I had to choose I would rather be a slave in Sparta than in other place in Greece.

Frag_Maniac
06-29-2018, 08:26 PM
Don't forget ancient Egypt was well known for slavery too, many of whom died building the pyramids. In Origins the hero Bayek often referred to Pharaohs as deserving of sacred tombs, and was quite upset when he saw anyone desecrate them. Yet these were rulers that enslaved entire races of people. So there are confusing disparities in the last game too.

Although many of us don't like the use of slavery throughout history, it IS still part of history, and it would be disingenuous to make games in these time periods without painting the worlds they take place in accurately. Like the Jews say, we should never forget the holocaust. If you wipe such atrocities from memory, it's as if you've denied they even happened.

DaelosTheCat
07-01-2018, 11:08 PM
I think that just like Origins has shown us the origins of the Brotherhood, so will Odyssey show us how the Order began. I won't be surprised if our character ends up being the founder of the Order.

Alakazou
07-02-2018, 03:37 PM
Don't forget ancient Egypt was well known for slavery too, many of whom died building the pyramids. In Origins the hero Bayek often referred to Pharaohs as deserving of sacred tombs, and was quite upset when he saw anyone desecrate them. Yet these were rulers that enslaved entire races of people. So there are confusing disparities in the last game too.

Although many of us don't like the use of slavery throughout history, it IS still part of history, and it would be disingenuous to make games in these time periods without painting the worlds they take place in accurately. Like the Jews say, we should never forget the holocaust. If you wipe such atrocities from memory, it's as if you've denied they even happened.


History lesson 1: slave didn't build pyramids. It was a working force with salary that did the pyramids. Slavery in ancient egypt did happen, we have clear evidence during the new kingdom, but when the pyramids were build, it wasn't slavery.
History lesson 2: the view that bayek have about pharaohs was common in ancient egypt.
History lesson 3: don't judge ancient society and concept by our modern one. Sure for us, how the ancient people were treated, seem to be slavery, but in those time it was not the case.

Frag_Maniac
07-03-2018, 03:41 AM
History lesson 1: slave didn't build pyramids. It was a working force with salary that did the pyramids. Slavery in ancient egypt did happen, we have clear evidence during the new kingdom, but when the pyramids were build, it wasn't slavery.
History lesson 2: the view that bayek have about pharaohs was common in ancient egypt.
History lesson 3: don't judge ancient society and concept by our modern one. Sure for us, how the ancient people were treated, seem to be slavery, but in those time it was not the case.

1. That's still being debated it seems. I have a feeling what they're referring to as "evidence" of them being "built" by workers is the fact that they took a lot of expertise from stone cutters and setters employed in the trade. The doesn't rule out that they still needed slaves to do the menial work of transporting the cut stones though. It's like saying Craftsman tools are "Made in the USA", when in fact their screw drivers for instance are made overseas, then the handles are put on them in the US. This talk of workers vs slaves building pyramids didn't become prevalent until about 2010. What it comes down to is definitions of slavery though. As Wikipedia correctly states, there were 3 types of slavery in ancient (Pharaonic) Egpyt, chattel slavery, bonded labor, and forced labor. The slaves working on pyramids were forced labor slaves. They can call them workers and not slaves all they want, but forced labor is still slavery. Now I'm not contending that they didn't have their own places to live and salaries and taxes they paid, but such conditions without the freedom to work and live as you want and where you want still constitutes forced labor slavery.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Egypt

2. Not sure your point there. I said it to point out that most in the time Origins represents were OK with slavery too, as the one I was responding to made it sound like this was all of a sudden happening in Odyssey. If anything you've just validated the point I was making.

3. False, it wasn't the way some ancient people "seemed" to be treated. It's the way they WERE treated, and again, forced labor is still a form of slavery. Humanity has evolved beyond that most places in the world, and for the better.

So I'm sorry, but you haven't even interpreted my points well, let alone given any "history lessons". If anything you could learn a lesson on the evils of slavery. It's a lesson some people never acknowledge until they're forced to labor at something. A lot of people nowadays toss around the term slavery as a verbal metaphor. The people back then actually being victim of it didn't have that luxury.

Alakazou
07-04-2018, 01:32 AM
1. That's still being debated it seems. I have a feeling what they're referring to as "evidence" of them being "built" by workers is the fact that they took a lot of expertise from stone cutters and setters employed in the trade. The doesn't rule out that they still needed slaves to do the menial work of transporting the cut stones though. It's like saying Craftsman tools are "Made in the USA", when in fact their screw drivers for instance are made overseas, then the handles are put on them in the US. This talk of workers vs slaves building pyramids didn't become prevalent until about 2010. What it comes down to is definitions of slavery though. As Wikipedia correctly states, there were 3 types of slavery in ancient (Pharaonic) Egpyt, chattel slavery, bonded labor, and forced labor. The slaves working on pyramids were forced labor slaves. They can call them workers and not slaves all they want, but forced labor is still slavery. Now I'm not contending that they didn't have their own places to live and salaries and taxes they paid, but such conditions without the freedom to work and live as you want and where you want still constitutes forced labor slavery.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Egypt
Using Wikipedia as a source is a bad thing to do, a common one, but still a bad thing. It’s not a debate. It’s widely know that they didn’t built the pyramid. The other problem is that you take the ancient Egypt as a monolithic bloc. What is true for the new kingdom is not necessarily true for the old kingdom.


[QUOTE=Frag_Maniac;13570628]
2. Not sure your point there. I said it to point out that most in the time Origins represents were OK with slavery too, as the one I was responding to made it sound like this was all of a sudden happening in Odyssey. If anything you've just validated the point I was making.
The point is about this: In Origins the hero Bayek often referred to Pharaohs as deserving of sacred tombs, and was quite upset when he saw anyone desecrate them. Yet these were rulers that enslaved entire races of people So there are confusing disparities in the last game too.

I don’t see why it’s confusing, since it’s how they saw the world.



3. False, it wasn't the way some ancient people "seemed" to be treated. It's the way they WERE treated, and again, forced labor is still a form of slavery. Humanity has evolved beyond that most places in the world, and for the better.

So I'm sorry, but you haven't even interpreted my points well, let alone given any "history lessons". If anything you could learn a lesson on the evils of slavery. It's a lesson some people never acknowledge until they're forced to labor at something. A lot of people nowadays toss around the term slavery as a verbal metaphor. The people back then actually being victim of it didn't have that luxury.

Like I said, don’t take our understanding of civil duty, freedom, equality, to understand past society understanding of the socio-political sphere. Those which live in those society didn’t have anything to do with slavery. The problem is that you have a to large unnuanced definition of slavery that doesn’t fit doesn’t society. It’s simply putting your culture bias on other society. It’s simply ethnocentrism. Yeah sure today we think it’s awful, but still, even if they weren’t living in the liberal kind of society, they weren’t slave, and didn’t do forced labor. Force labor, in their society is a specific thing that some of them did for many reason, but it’s not what most of the peasant population did.

Frag_Maniac
07-04-2018, 06:29 AM
You're missing my entire point by trying to make this a slavery debate, and suspect so called "history lesson". Again, I'm merely pointing out that featuring slavery is not new with Odyssey like OP seems to think, and that Origins had it too. Really don't see what you're on about. You can't seem to grasp that simple conveyance, but have fun talking to yourself because you're just prattling on now.

Alakazou
07-05-2018, 01:41 AM
You're missing my entire point by trying to make this a slavery debate, and suspect so called "history lesson". Again, I'm merely pointing out that featuring slavery is not new with Odyssey like OP seems to think, and that Origins had it too. Really don't see what you're on about. You can't seem to grasp that simple conveyance, but have fun talking to yourself because you're just prattling on now.


My point is that you can do that without changing history. That's really absurd because it sound like: I change historical fact to make a point or I will put my own bias to make a point. You sound like that wacky Reza Aslan which said because is book was not a scholar one, he didn't need to be accurate.

So the history lesson still make sense and that you doesn't seem to understand it, and it's pretty simple. Don't go with false historical fact, when you are making an argument that have a connection with history

Frag_Maniac
07-05-2018, 02:10 AM
My point is that you can do that without changing history. That's really absurd because it sound like: I change historical fact to make a point or I will put my own bias to make a point. You sound like that wacky Reza Aslan which said because is book was not a scholar one, he didn't need to be accurate.

So the history lesson still make sense and that you doesn't seem to understand it, and it's pretty simple. Don't go with false historical fact, when you are making an argument that have a connection with history
LOL, you started out trying to debate what slavery is, and had no rebuttal for my points on forced labor type slavery. It's as if you weren't even aware of it. Now you're trying to make it about changing history, which is an entirely different point. So yeah, you're prattling on still, which is why it's pointless and a waste of time.

Alakazou
07-06-2018, 01:04 AM
That where you are wrong, I'm not trying to start a debate about what is slavery, but to correct mistake that you made from an historical point of view, especially if you are arguing with something connect to history.

Like I said, the modern bias that you have, distorted ancient concept, and if we want the truth (that maybe you don't want) we need to be careful and nuanced about how they saw the world. Our moral construct are a small dot in the time and space. So thinking if give us the right tool to understand the vast majority of time and space, is not only unwise, but misguided.Yeah maybe you don't care, you have the right, but it attack your credibility, since you speak without understanding what you are talking about. That's said force labor and slavery in the ancient time are two different thing and that the ancient egyptian that built the pyramid was neither of those category.

That's said, it's the second time you accuse me of prattling, and making you wasting your time, so why are you replying? ho and outside petty comment like that it's clear that you don't have argument. Anyway, I didn't expect anything else from you since you think posting a wikipedia link consist as a solid argument.