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LeviathanWard
06-29-2018, 08:11 AM
So, I've got exactly one idea for destroying the current Turtle Meta of just Parrying and Feinting. And that quite simply, is to get rid of Parrying.

Now I know this seems drastic, and it is, but not without good reason.

A character can only Turtle as well as their best Defense. Which is why characters with Shields like the Conqueror, Warlord, and Valkyrie should be able to turtle pretty well, because they can shut down enemy combos, and Nobushi counts as well with their Hidden Stance Dodge.

However, every single character can Turtle heavily. Why?

The answer is because each and every single character can Parry. It's the Perfect Defense in this game if you have fast enough reaction time. Every single attack that isn't guaranteed or directionless can be parried, no matter how much damage it should do, how much stamina it should drain, if you time it right, that entire move is completely and utterly wasted, and now you're open for attacks. But even if you couldn't use it to open up the enemy for damage, people would still Parry Turtle, because it's simply the best defense in the game. There's no reason not to use it.

But why get rid of it instead of nerfing it? Here's why

1) A nerfed parry will only make people mad. They won't see it as a deterrent against Turtling, they'll see it as effectively punishment for having good reaction times. People will start avoiding it if the nerf came with penalties, and by then you might as well have gotten rid of it.

2) A nerfed parry that can no longer be used offensively will only worsen the Parry Turtling, because at the very least right now we can end the fight. Take away the ability to get a free hit after a parry, and put two people of roughly equal skill levels, and we're looking at a fight that never ends, because unless they fall for the feints, next to no damage will be done.

3) Shortening the window to Parry may fix the problem a bit, but it won't change anything in the higher tiers of gameplay where people are capable of parrying Light attacks. You'll also still make people angry, because they'll still try to parry, but now it's much harder for the average player to pull off.

4) So long as Parrying = Reaction Speed, Slow Attacks will never be viable unless used as Feint Fodder. Thus dumbing down the move sets of the characters to just the fastest moves, guaranteed hits, and Parry-Counters. Thereby lowering the skill ceiling of the game to your Reaction Speed.

5) Regardless of what nerfs come out, it doesn't change the basic mechanic of Parrying, and that is your Reaction Speed = Defense. There's no counter for that aside from feinting, but feinting is good against literally everything, it can bait out dodges, it can bait out attacks, so that point is mostly irrelevant. Dodging has a counter via if you dodge the wrong way, you get smacked, plus there's Undodgeable moves that you have to block. Blocking has a counter in the form of Unblockables and straight up out-playing your opponent. Parrying has nothing that directly counters it.

6) No character is wholly reliant upon the Parry for their entire move set. The closest we have to that is the Lawbringer, but even then his kit could survive the removal of Parrying, as now without the threat of every Heavy attack being blocked, he can access his more damaging combos, as well as his much faster combos such as Swift Justice. Just throw in an Undodgeable attack, and his kit is fully ready to survive the removal of Parrying.

I can understand why Ubisoft implemented the idea. It seemed like a great one at the time. Reward players for being skilled with a good defense. But that was when the game was beginning and it didn't have extensive amounts of field testing. Now that it does, I think that it's pretty evident that Parrying isn't suited for a PvP game. Perhaps keep it for PvE gameplay, but in PvP it's just restricting people.

Now then, I will admit I'm only seeing it from one view point, and that is my own, where despite being a Mid-Tier Lawbringer Main, I find myself greatly disliking Parrying because I can't use most of my move set without getting punished for it, and because whenever I pull it off, I just find myself repeating it over and over and over again with no originality in my game play except when I decide to get a bit aggressive and try to bait some people into letting me parry them... but I'm still just relying on Parrying, because only my light attack has any chance of hitting and usually it'll just get blocked.

I'd much rather see gameplay where players are more aggressive, and they utilize their character's full move set, where they aren't afraid to throw out a Slow but Heavy attack out of fear of being punished for it.

Because after all, we can always balance the game for no longer having parrying. It's not impossible. One main idea that I have is making sure that every character has at least 1 Unblockable Move and 1 Undodgeable Move. This means that no character would find themselves in an absolutely unbeatable position, where because someone always blocks or someone always dodges their attacks, they can't defeat another opponent.

So, after reading all this, what do you guys think of it? Do you have any ideas for destroying the Turtle Meta? Feel free to critique my idea, as well as leave your own in the comments.

Charmzzz
06-29-2018, 08:32 AM
Stopped reading after the first sentence. Real Turtle Meta is gone since the parry changes hit. We have alot of Characters and Moves to open up Turtles. Imo the Fight-System is really good at the moment. They should focus on more Reworks instead of changing the whole System again.

Music_4_Therapy
06-29-2018, 08:35 AM
Parrying does need a legit nerf, not this garbage nerf they implemented. Its the end all be all to this game. Light attack? Parry. Heavy Attack? Parry. Unblockable? Parry. If you had a player that focused solely on parrying and became the parry god, the vast majority of characters in the cast would never be able to throw out an attack. Hence why most "high level" gameplay between "skilled" players is a turtle fest. There shouldn't be 1 technique that covers near all facets of the game both offensively and defensively and depletes stamina. Each type of attack should have a counter.

Blocking should be the all around method of defense vs Light and Heavy attacks, Unblockables should force a dodge or a faster attack to cancel the animation.
Parrying/Deflecting should reward you for beating Lights, and Parrying a Heavy should reset the fight to Neutral with no reward for either player. Would be beat by feinting a Heavy then Parrying the Parry attempt. No Parrying unblockables, but you'd be able to dodge them or hit the player out of the animation with a fast light attack if you correctly predict the Unblockable is coming.
Heavy attacks should deal more chip damage to place more pressure on players that don't dodge/parry.
Dodging should beat Heavies (and lights), but could be punished by Guardbreaks/Canceling a Heavy then GBing.

LeviathanWard
06-29-2018, 10:20 AM
Stopped reading after the first sentence. Real Turtle Meta is gone since the parry changes hit. We have alot of Characters and Moves to open up Turtles. Imo the Fight-System is really good at the moment. They should focus on more Reworks instead of changing the whole System again.

So... we should keep the fact that the only way we can get in attacks is through incredibly fast attacks or guaranteed hits? We should keep the fact that we can't use most of our move sets because almost any move other than the aforementioned Openers and Guaranteed hits is almost suicide from Mid-Tier and up. Because that sounds like one hell of a repetitive game, and guess what it is right now.

Also, you do actually know what the Parry Changes actually did right? They didn't remove Parrying's viability as a defensive move. They just removed your ability to instantly Guard Break from a Parry and let you get a free Light attack out. That's it. That barely changed anything about the Turtling Meta.

Plus, you stating the fact that Openers are considered some of the most viable tactics, is admitting that the Parry Turtling is still a problem, since you're doing your damned best to get around the Parry.

Camemberto
06-29-2018, 10:24 AM
I disagree that nerfing the parry instead of removing it will not change the turtle meta, because it will. You don't seem to understand what the turtle meta actually IS and WHY it was a thing. So let me elaborate, here's my understanding of it:

What is turtle meta?

A perfect turtle is a person who will never throw an attack and block or parry every attack thrown at him, execute a 100% save punish and then got back to blocking and parrying.

Why would one turtle?

For me there is only really ONE reason and that is guaranteed damage after parry. A turtle will not throw an attack, because he fears the damage, that would be inflicted, if the attack got parried. At the same time, the turtle will parry everything he can, because it is effectively a completely, risk-free guaranteed attack.

How do you destroy turtle meta?

Keep the parry, remove save damage after parry. NOW LET ME EXPLAIN FIRST! People will always find the best way to win the game. Period. Parrying is way too strong so parrying is the way to go -> turtles. If parries were removed, unblockables would be the way to go -> spamming. Neither of which makes for a great gaming experience. Now if parrying was NERFED, there's a difference, because YES, the parry will still be the most viable way to negate any damage, but is absolutely no good in terms of getting damage in, so people will not be able to rely on it to win a round. They will have to attack, and they will attack more freely, because they don't have to fear being punished by a parry. Parrying would be high risk / low reward (no damage taken) and attacking would be low risk (no parry punish) / high reward. That alone would shift the meta more towards aggression and attacking rather than just blocking and parrying. You know the rest of my suggestion, I won't explain them anew, but a very important thing to bring back to mind, is that blocked heavy and light attacks are made much more viable (Chip damage + continuing chain on light block etc.). So people won't be able to rely on just blocking either, they will have to try and dodge or parry, both of which can be punished by a guardbreak (only light attack on GB).

TL;RD: Make the parry into a block (same animation as blocking light attack now) (stops light and heavy chains and unblockables). Nerf blocking to a point where attacking is the more viable choice (blocking lights won't stop chains, blocking heavies deals chip damage).

LeviathanWard
06-29-2018, 10:26 AM
Parrying does need a legit nerf, not this garbage nerf they implemented. Its the end all be all to this game. Light attack? Parry. Heavy Attack? Parry. Unblockable? Parry. If you had a player that focused solely on parrying and became the parry god, the vast majority of characters in the cast would never be able to throw out an attack. Hence why most "high level" gameplay between "skilled" players is a turtle fest. There shouldn't be 1 technique that covers near all facets of the game both offensively and defensively and depletes stamina. Each type of attack should have a counter.

Blocking should be the all around method of defense vs Light and Heavy attacks, Unblockables should force a dodge or a faster attack to cancel the animation.
Parrying/Deflecting should reward you for beating Lights, and Parrying a Heavy should reset the fight to Neutral with no reward for either player. Would be beat by feinting a Heavy then Parrying the Parry attempt. No Parrying unblockables, but you'd be able to dodge them or hit the player out of the animation with a fast light attack if you correctly predict the Unblockable is coming.
Heavy attacks should deal more chip damage to place more pressure on players that don't dodge/parry.
Dodging should beat Heavies (and lights), but could be punished by Guardbreaks/Canceling a Heavy then GBing.

This unfortunately does little to change what's currently going on. Even with Parrying setting the fight to Neutral with no reward for a Heavy, I already covered that in point #2. It still renders Heavy attacks virtually unusable since they'll never actually land. Unblockables also being Unparryable is a nice touch, but many Heroes have their unlockables hidden behind combos that often involve a heavy attack, and if we change it so that some Heroes have Unblockables from Neutral, then what's the point of having the combos?

Parrying is still wrecking the Combo system in this case. But at least the Parry Turtling Meta is broken mostly since now there's Unparryable attacks.

DrinkinMehStella
06-29-2018, 10:39 AM
so ive seen the evolution of for honor and how it was, to how it was then and how it is now and I can say from my opinion the turtle meta is so much better than it was. when I use to face a warlord literally they would wait till it was safe to attack and guaranteed to hit why because the system and mechanics allowed them to turtle. Now the parry punish isn't worth turtling for, there are so many more openers on most heroes so turtling will lead to getting punished. the only heroes I see turtling now which is mainly down to there kit not having enough is warden and raiders, wardens I noticed are normally really good players and they wait till a GB is guaranteed and just bait parries and raiders are the same, just bait a GB or use the zone as a 50/50 but that down to their limited moveset.

Armosias
06-29-2018, 12:13 PM
Removing parry could be possible but would need a huge work on block, deflect and stamina to happen. If we remove parry right now assassins and light spam would just rule the game, 4v4 meta would be plagued by unstopable spam of heavies in addition to the actual UB spam. Deflect would grant guaranteed damages and still negate and upcoming damages, heroes with no iframes on dodge would become total victims for everyone.

Can't wait to see those Orochis, Berzerkers, Aramushas and Conqs spamming in an all out light fest

LeviathanWard
06-29-2018, 08:31 PM
Removing parry could be possible but would need a huge work on block, deflect and stamina to happen. If we remove parry right now assassins and light spam would just rule the game, 4v4 meta would be plagued by unstopable spam of heavies in addition to the actual UB spam. Deflect would grant guaranteed damages and still negate and upcoming damages, heroes with no iframes on dodge would become total victims for everyone.

Can't wait to see those Orochis, Berzerkers, Aramushas and Conqs spamming in an all out light fest

Assassins and Light spam already rule the game, at least down in Mid-Tier, the only way to get an attack in sometimes is with Light attacks. Except now a couple others can join in with Openers. Deflect already grants guaranteed damage. Orochis, Berserkers, Aramushas, and Conqs can't spam all that easily because getting one block in stops their chain because it's a Light spam. Literally the only change that you've noted down is that Heavy attacks would actually be used. Which could actually be reduced by the fact that not all attacks from even Heavy heroes have Hyper Armor except for Shugoki's.

LeviathanWard
06-29-2018, 08:33 PM
I disagree that nerfing the parry instead of removing it will not change the turtle meta, because it will. You don't seem to understand what the turtle meta actually IS and WHY it was a thing. So let me elaborate, here's my understanding of it:

What is turtle meta?

A perfect turtle is a person who will never throw an attack and block or parry every attack thrown at him, execute a 100% save punish and then got back to blocking and parrying.

Why would one turtle?

For me there is only really ONE reason and that is guaranteed damage after parry. A turtle will not throw an attack, because he fears the damage, that would be inflicted, if the attack got parried. At the same time, the turtle will parry everything he can, because it is effectively a completely, risk-free guaranteed attack.

How do you destroy turtle meta?

Keep the parry, remove save damage after parry. NOW LET ME EXPLAIN FIRST! People will always find the best way to win the game. Period. Parrying is way too strong so parrying is the way to go -> turtles. If parries were removed, unblockables would be the way to go -> spamming. Neither of which makes for a great gaming experience. Now if parrying was NERFED, there's a difference, because YES, the parry will still be the most viable way to negate any damage, but is absolutely no good in terms of getting damage in, so people will not be able to rely on it to win a round. They will have to attack, and they will attack more freely, because they don't have to fear being punished by a parry. Parrying would be high risk / low reward (no damage taken) and attacking would be low risk (no parry punish) / high reward. That alone would shift the meta more towards aggression and attacking rather than just blocking and parrying. You know the rest of my suggestion, I won't explain them anew, but a very important thing to bring back to mind, is that blocked heavy and light attacks are made much more viable (Chip damage + continuing chain on light block etc.). So people won't be able to rely on just blocking either, they will have to try and dodge or parry, both of which can be punished by a guardbreak (only light attack on GB).

TL;RD: Make the parry into a block (same animation as blocking light attack now) (stops light and heavy chains and unblockables). Nerf blocking to a point where attacking is the more viable choice (blocking lights won't stop chains, blocking heavies deals chip damage).

Camemberto, please actually read my post instead of just spouting your own stuff. Check out Reason #2 which quite clearly points out, that even if you remove the offensive features from Parrying, people will still Parry, because it's simply the Best Defense. So why wouldn't they Parry? Do they have a reason not to Parry? Will not Parrying give them some kind of advantage? Nope... it'll just let the enemy continue their combo...

Geeze, this is twice now that I have to say this to you.

Armosias
06-29-2018, 08:40 PM
Assassins and Light spam already rule the game, at least down in Mid-Tier, the only way to get an attack in sometimes is with Light attacks. Except now a couple others can join in with Openers. Deflect already grants guaranteed damage. Orochis, Berserkers, Aramushas, and Conqs can't spam all that easily because getting one block in stops their chain because it's a Light spam. Literally the only change that you've noted down is that Heavy attacks would actually be used. Which could actually be reduced by the fact that not all attacks from even Heavy heroes have Hyper Armor except for Shugoki's.
400 ms lights chains are not blockable and can only be parried. At least they are with LB and Conq. What I mean we won't be able To stop them in any way if we can't parry those 400ms lights, ad for the deflects, they'll guarantee damage as they do now, but only assassins have access to it, granting them a huge advantage. Only if Ubi doesn't touch other mechanics. Ad I said above removing parry is not impossible, but requires a terrible amount of work.

pzea_469
06-30-2018, 07:17 AM
I think parrying is something that opens up defensive play. You bait your opponent into trying to parry and then punish. Removing this would just increase the amount of safe blocking. Parrying is taking a risk.

LeviathanWard
06-30-2018, 09:06 AM
400 ms lights chains are not blockable and can only be parried. At least they are with LB and Conq. What I mean we won't be able To stop them in any way if we can't parry those 400ms lights, ad for the deflects, they'll guarantee damage as they do now, but only assassins have access to it, granting them a huge advantage. Only if Ubi doesn't touch other mechanics. Ad I said above removing parry is not impossible, but requires a terrible amount of work.

Umm... Lawbringer main over here, a little bit confused. I've blocked 400ms Light chains before (half of it was by getting lucky) because Guard Change is only about 100ms and the Light Chain is 400ms giving me about 300ms to react to their next attack. Also if you can't block it, then how in the **** are you expected to Parry it? Because either you're stating that you can't switch your guard fast enough, or that somehow a Light Chain becomes unblockable even if your guard is placed in the correct spot. Only one of those makes sense, but it also makes your argument fall apart.

Also Deflect doesn't work against Undodgeable attacks because first it requires a successful dodge. But yes, Deflect would need a change of some kind as well.


I think parrying is something that opens up defensive play. You bait your opponent into trying to parry and then punish. Removing this would just increase the amount of safe blocking. Parrying is taking a risk.

Not really? Parrying is the Defensive Play, and it only breaks it up because there are offensive options right now.

Meanwhile I actually addressed the issue of Feinting and its relation to Parrying. That relation is the fact that Parrying is good against opening any defense. You can use it to bait out a dodge, and if all characters got an attack out of feinting, you could also bait them into switching their guard.

Because right now, Parrying is one of the safest options, mostly due to the fact that when the Guard Widget flashes, you are still capable of parrying, but the opponent is no longer capable of Feinting out of the attack. You'll have a smaller window to Parry for sure, but within that window Parrying is 100% Safe. So not even Feinting is a guaranteed way of getting a hit in past Parrying.

Tyrjo
06-30-2018, 10:55 AM
Removing the parry from the game would be the same as removing a tire from a car.

Jazz117Volkov
06-30-2018, 02:16 PM
Parrying isn't really an issue anymore, it's actually very punishable, feint and guardbreak. EZ. In a way, it's made turtles worse because there's so little reason to parry, feinting is becoming a dead mechanic. It's why the "assassin meta" happened; faster attacks, deflects, and in some cases, hyper armour, all allow you to overpower an aggressor, all you have to do is wait for them to attack. Interrupt them with speed, guardbreak their heavies, dodge attack, etc. It's why Berserker is considered the strongest character right now. Maybe with the exception of Conq. but again, conq is now built around punishing reactions without using the parry mechanic; specifically, conq. has unblockable soft cancels that guarantee damage if you try to parry them.

Baggin_
06-30-2018, 02:36 PM
Personally, how I would rework the Parry system is not to take it out, but give the person being parried a chance to parry back. The way this could work is that when your heavy attack gets parried the system would then give you a chance at parrying back at the normal speed and timing that parrying usually is. However, getting your lite attack parried would cut the reaction time you need for the “parry back” in half. Increase the stamaina drain from being parried/parrying and increase the damage delt by a missing a “parry back” attempt.

There could also be a system in place that for every time consecutive (back and forth) parries happen the reaction time you have to “parry back” decreases.

After the reworks, rebalances and everything that takes priority, the animation team could then work on the animations for “parry back” system making it look more natural and smooth when getting into the parry battles this system would set in place.

I believe doing this would decrease the frustration and hopelessness of getting hit by guaranteed attacks while getting the feeling that more control is in your hand.

To anyone who read this,
This is just my opinion of how parrying and “turtleing” could be solved. If you like this idea and have any other ideas that could add to this please feel free to share it share it with me.

To anyone who disagrees with this,
Please don’t tell me this idea is dumb or wouldn’t work without at least telling me your thoughts about what your concerns with it would be. Disagreements will happen, but discussions about different opinions don’t always have to be rude.

All of us (or most of us at least) on this forum love this game and want to see it constantly improve, any and all ideas are welcome here and hopefully the developers see them all and judge accordingly on how to implement them into our game.

Happy Saturday my friends, see you on the battlefield!

Knight_Raime
06-30-2018, 06:06 PM
Turtle meta hasn't existed since season 5's parry changes. What's more effective now is safe/aggressive offense.
Defense is still strong. And likely always will be because blocking is a passive action compared to literally every other fighter out there.

But measures can be taken to increase the skill ceiling for defending yourself. Which indirectly nerfs defensive play. These would be:

~fixing the buffering issue
~Adding varied MS increments.
~adding proper block strings.

First one makes attacks slower than they should be in combo. That's why someone like gladiator has 600ms lights in combo even though their supposed to be 500ms. Adding in varied ms increments means you'd have to learn the speeds of each hero individually. Instead of current where you learn 3-4 speeds total for majority of the roster and their moves. And proper block strings means the fight doesn't reset to neutral in most cases by blocking a single attack. The player would have to be able to defend against the second or even third follow up in order to truly be safe and reset the fight back to neutral.

Removing parry is just a dumb idea. And if parrying was such an easy/no brainer thing to do in the first place everyone would be parrying everything. But that's not even the case for top tier play even during the defensive meta. In fact in top play you still see less parrying compared to average play.

TheTool85
06-30-2018, 07:41 PM
Hmm...
I honestly never experienced any turtle meta which sure is because I dont't duel and play low tier dominion only.
But i think this threat here is interesting so i hope i'm allowed to throw in a suggestion i have about parry and the turtle meta. :)
What if there were 3 types of parry?
Type 1: the perfect parry.
This would allow the punishment as it is already. Ad to this an all directional heavy off of a light parry. Of course the window to reach this should be very tight.
Type 2: the just in time parry.
It will reset the fight to neutral only.
This is ment as a replacement to backdodges as it now confirms more than just... well... backdodge lol
Type 3: the messed up parry.
If you really missed the timing for a parry, it should knock you down. Not sure how to make it animation wise, nor do I have a clue if this knock down should take you OOS ( maybe too much?).
But this would at least punish you for a failed punishment more, than current meta does. ( sounds strange haha :) )

Just my opinon. Please don't rip me apart.

Armosias
06-30-2018, 08:58 PM
Because either you're stating that you can't switch your guard fast enough, or that somehow a Light Chain becomes unblockable even if your guard is placed in the correct spot.

Also Deflect doesn't work against Undodgeable attacks because first it requires a successful dodge. But yes, Deflect would need a change of some kind as well.
This is exactly what I meant: most of the Orochis I faced post-rework managed to land those 400 ms lights although I was switching, the stagger effect caused by the hit preventing me from switching guard in time, while the parry does not need any setup time, now I can't really say if it's the hero more than the servers, or my hardware being nasty. On the same pleasure I trained in arena to find how in heavens I can escape Warden's SB light spamming, world in arena but not in actual gameplay sooo.. I guess having 19ms towards google just isn't enough, or Europe servers are not as good as I expect them to be !

LeviathanWard
06-30-2018, 09:00 PM
Alright for everyone absolutely INSISTING that Parrying isn't still in the Meta...

Then why does the Meta currently revolve around how many Openers and Mix-Ups there are? Why does it revolve around who has the fastest attacks? WHY DOES THE ENTIRE META LITERALLY REVOLVE AROUND NOT HAVING TO DEAL WITH PARRYING?

All of you are telling me how Parrying is punishable, even though all that all of you are telling me is "and here's how we don't deal with Parrying" or "and here's how exactly ONE CHARACTER punishes you if you try to parry him." Which all that you're telling me is "Parrying is something that nobody likes, so here's all the ways we found to avoid it as much as possible."

But by all means, if Parrying isn't a problem. Trying going a whole day just using your character's combos. No mix-ups. No soft-cancels. Try to use the basic building blocks of your character's move set, and tell me how well it goes. Tell me how many times you got punished for just trying to use all that your character can actually do. Because after all, in pretty much every other fighting game, the basic hit combos are always built to be reliable, and yes advanced techniques would still beat it, they're at least useable still. So let's see if For Honor can pass this test.


Personally, how I would rework the Parry system is not to take it out, but give the person being parried a chance to parry back. The way this could work is that when your heavy attack gets parried the system would then give you a chance at parrying back at the normal speed and timing that parrying usually is. However, getting your lite attack parried would cut the reaction time you need for the “parry back” in half. Increase the stamaina drain from being parried/parrying and increase the damage delt by a missing a “parry back” attempt.

There could also be a system in place that for every time consecutive (back and forth) parries happen the reaction time you have to “parry back” decreases.

The problem that I'm seeing here is at that point it just becomes back and forth and hasn't really done much to actually allow a character to use their entire move set still. But it would at least make the Parrying a bit more of a contest. Especially since you would be able to pick the direction of the new attack and it wouldn't just be back and forth ping pong on the same guard direction.

Could probably make for some pretty heated moments.


Hmm...
I honestly never experienced any turtle meta which sure is because I dont't duel and play low tier dominion only.
But i think this threat here is interesting so i hope i'm allowed to throw in a suggestion i have about parry and the turtle meta. :)
What if there were 3 types of parry?
Type 1: the perfect parry.
This would allow the punishment as it is already. Ad to this an all directional heavy off of a light parry. Of course the window to reach this should be very tight.
Type 2: the just in time parry.
It will reset the fight to neutral only.
This is ment as a replacement to backdodges as it now confirms more than just... well... backdodge lol
Type 3: the messed up parry.
If you really missed the timing for a parry, it should knock you down. Not sure how to make it animation wise, nor do I have a clue if this knock down should take you OOS ( maybe too much?).
But this would at least punish you for a failed punishment more, than current meta does. ( sounds strange haha :) )

Just my opinon. Please don't rip me apart.

You are allowed your opinion,and this is a fine idea that you've put thought into. Albeit it still doesn't solve the dilemma that most characters still can't use a lot of their combos, though putting them OOS on top of Knock Down does seem like a bit much.

Armosias
06-30-2018, 09:10 PM
Honestly I played a whole evening of Dominion on a gearless Lawdaddy, but I'll never try not to feint that heavy chain, and I believe we're one the least equiped heroes in terms of turtle opening.