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View Full Version : An Idea To Rework Warden's Shoulder Bash



Vakris_One
06-26-2018, 10:06 AM
Rumour has it that Warden's new rework is set to make Shoulder Bash as cancerous as it was in Season 1 - i.e. he will be able to feint out of it at any time as long as he doesn't initiate the move. This means he can charge it and just sit there and wait to cancel it as a reaction to his opponent's dodge or attack. Needless to say this will damage the health of the game.

So I propose to the developers a much better way to rework the Shoulder Bash. Give it a single guarranteed attack and then the chain ends. Get rid of its infinite loop as that has always felt cancerous. Instead give the Warden a choice between two types of attack after a successful shoulder bash:

1) Heavy attack input - A half swording hilt bash where the Warden quickly grabs his sword by the blade with both hands and bashes the opponent with the hilt and pommel causing a stun effect like the Raider's stunning tap. Give this attack 42 damage.

Example of this attack:

https://i.redd.it/1qvfbx2brpry.gif

^ Only the second part where he bashes him with the hilt

or

2) Light attack input - A half swording stab whereby the Warden stabilises his sword with one hand by grabing it by the blade and stabs into the enemy. This causes a slight push back that can ledge and wallsplat. Give this attack 28 damage and 10 bleed.

Example of this attack:
http://www.swordsmanship.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/dringen.png

Alustar.
06-26-2018, 01:17 PM
That would not only make it less of a 50/50 but them bring about some diversity to his kit.

PDXGorechild
06-26-2018, 02:52 PM
Your proposed damage values seem a little high. 42 damage and stun from a straight up heavy is extreme. 38 damage total from a light and potential wallsplat for another guaranteed 40 or so is also pretty obscene.

Other than that it seems like a cool idea. I like the idea of him smashing someone with the hilt. Where was that first clip from?

Sneakly20
06-26-2018, 02:52 PM
Rumour has it that Warden's new rework is set to make Shoulder Bash as cancerous as it was in Season 1 - i.e. he will be able to feint out of it at any time as long as he doesn't initiate the move. This means he can charge it and just sit there and wait to cancel it as a reaction to his opponent's dodge or attack. Needless to say this will damage the health of the game.

So I propose to the developers a much better way to rework the Shoulder Bash. Give it a single guarranteed attack and then the chain ends. Get rid of its infinite loop as that has always felt cancerous. Instead give the Warden a choice between two types of attack after a successful shoulder bash:

1) Heavy attack input - A half swording hilt bash where the Warden quickly grabs his sword by the blade with both hands and bashes the opponent with the hilt and pommel causing a stun effect like the Raider's stunning tap. Give this attack 42 damage.

Example of this attack:

https://i.redd.it/1qvfbx2brpry.gif

^ Only the second part where he bashes him with the hilt

or

2) Light attack input - A half swording stab whereby the Warden stabilises his sword with one hand by grabing it by the blade and stabs into the enemy. This causes a slight push back that can ledge and wallsplat. Give this attack 28 damage and 10 bleed.

Example of this attack:
http://www.swordsmanship.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/dringen.png

I these ideas. But I have a question and some concerns.

Are any of these guaranteed? And if not is the heavy able to feinted?

And the damage is too high for both moves. I would say the heavy is fine since it more than likely can be blocked but where talking about getting that from a basic shoulder bash. On paper the heavy is fine for duals since no one would get hit unless parry happy for the light but it would cause more problems in modes outside 1v1.

The light does too much damage as well. Weíre talking a heavy worth of damage from a light. I think increase push back and higher bleed. But either remove or drastically lower damage.

Love the ideas but they need tuning 👍

Vakris_One
06-26-2018, 03:14 PM
Your proposed damage values seem a little high. 42 damage and stun from a straight up heavy is extreme. 38 damage total from a light and potential wallsplat for another guaranteed 40 or so is also pretty obscene.

Other than that it seems like a cool idea. I like the idea of him smashing someone with the hilt. Where was that first clip from?


I these ideas. But I have a question and some concerns.

Are any of these guaranteed? And if not is the heavy able to feinted?

And the damage is too high for both moves. I would say the heavy is fine since it more than likely can be blocked but where talking about getting that from a basic shoulder bash. On paper the heavy is fine for duals since no one would get hit unless parry happy for the light but it would cause more problems in modes outside 1v1.

The light does too much damage as well. Weíre talking a heavy worth of damage from a light. I think increase push back and higher bleed. But either remove or drastically lower damage.

Love the ideas but they need tuning 👍
Yeah, I might have gone a little too much on the damage numbers :)

Both moves are meant to be guarranteed after a successful shoulder bash but they do not lead into a chain and most importantly they do not loop into another shoulder bash. I gave them such high damage to compensate for removing the shoulder bash infinite loop but perhaps overdid it. Revised numbers:

1) Heavy attack input - half swording hilt strike is now 30 damage and does stun

2) Light attack input - half swording stab is now 15 damage and does 10 bleed as well as capable of doing wall splat and ledge. Push back distance is the same distance as a Lawbringer's shove.

How does that sound?

RE: the warden hilt bash clip is from a pre-alpha in-house version of For Honor. It never made it to the alpha player testing stage.

Tyrjo
06-26-2018, 03:53 PM
The SB is the most boring thing about fighting the Warden. Buffing it seems totally counterproductive if they want to make the hero fun to play and fun to play against. If rolling away and resetting the fight to neutral is the best way to deal with a move, then something is wrong with it.

Illyrian_King
06-26-2018, 03:58 PM
Rumour has it that Warden's new rework is set to make Shoulder Bash as cancerous as it was in Season 1 - i.e. he will be able to feint out of it at any time as long as he doesn't initiate the move. This means he can charge it and just sit there and wait to cancel it as a reaction to his opponent's dodge or attack. Needless to say this will damage the health of the game.

So I propose to the developers a much better way to rework the Shoulder Bash. Give it a single guarranteed attack and then the chain ends. Get rid of its infinite loop as that has always felt cancerous. Instead give the Warden a choice between two types of attack after a successful shoulder bash:

1) Heavy attack input - A half swording hilt bash where the Warden quickly grabs his sword by the blade with both hands and bashes the opponent with the hilt and pommel causing a stun effect like the Raider's stunning tap. Give this attack 42 damage.

Example of this attack:

https://i.redd.it/1qvfbx2brpry.gif

^ Only the second part where he bashes him with the hilt

or

2) Light attack input - A half swording stab whereby the Warden stabilises his sword with one hand by grabing it by the blade and stabs into the enemy. This causes a slight push back that can ledge and wallsplat. Give this attack 28 damage and 10 bleed.

Example of this attack:
http://www.swordsmanship.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/dringen.png

This is gorgeous!
I would love to see some stab and hilt action.

Sneakly20
06-26-2018, 04:25 PM
Yeah, I might have gone a little too much on the damage numbers :)

Both moves are meant to be guarranteed after a successful shoulder bash but they do not lead into a chain and most importantly they do not loop into another shoulder bash. I gave them such high damage to compensate for removing the shoulder bash infinite loop but perhaps overdid it. Revised numbers:

1) Heavy attack input - half swording hilt strike is now 30 damage and does stun

2) Light attack input - half swording stab is now 15 damage and does 10 bleed as well as capable of doing wall splat and ledge. Push back distance is the same distance as a Lawbringer's shove.

How does that sound?

RE: the warden hilt bash clip is from a pre-alpha in-house version of For Honor. It never made it to the alpha player testing stage.

Thatís better. But unfortunately the heavy shouldnít be guaranteed because weíre still talking basic shoulder bash, that would make it worse. And I understand the loop but instead of continued chain they would just shoulder bash after the first one. Not only that but the light presents an infinite combo since it wallsplats. If the light is to be guaranteed then then the light should do 10 damage and 10 bleed or something like that. Because right now shoulder bash is very easy to get into and thatís a lot of easy damage especially in anything over 1v1.

Protos_88
06-26-2018, 06:05 PM
warden cant fight now without parry. So gg f ubisoft. This spam balance i so f great. give us more ( ofc s7 cant wait)

Knight_Raime
06-26-2018, 07:11 PM
Sorry to not read the bulk of your post but I wanted to correct you on something. The rework (if true) isn't giving us back pre nerf Shoulder bash.
As the ability to cancel it at anytime was only part of it. The other aspect was that he had zero recovery after a cancel. The rework isn't removing the recovery after a cancel. Which means he can still be punished.

EDIT: Forgot to mention i've been discussing with some competitive players. effectively the changes are allowing for a 200-300ms extra time to feint a bash. Which is deff more than we have now that being 300ms from start iirc. So you're looking at a lights attack speed window in which you can cancel. And you still have the mandatory recovery after. So you can't just spam shoulder bash cancel repeatedly.

Vakris_One
06-26-2018, 10:12 PM
That’s better. But unfortunately the heavy shouldn’t be guaranteed because we’re still talking basic shoulder bash, that would make it worse. And I understand the loop but instead of continued chain they would just shoulder bash after the first one. Not only that but the light presents an infinite combo since it wallsplats. If the light is to be guaranteed then then the light should do 10 damage and 10 bleed or something like that. Because right now shoulder bash is very easy to get into and that’s a lot of easy damage especially in anything over 1v1.
They would need to initiate shoulder bash either from an attack or from a dodge forward or a side dodge though, which allows the player to react to it rather than how it is now with shoulder bash coming off as an infinite chain after any light attack hit. So it will at least make getting another shoulder bash a bit harder. I can see your point about the stab's wall splat however. That one would guarantee another shoulder bash.

Hmm. How about:

1) The hilt bash (heavy attack input) would become a 600ms attack with hyper armour but it is not guaranteed after shoulder bash and can be either blocked, parried, deflected or dodged. To compensate, the hilt bash can now be initiated after a whiffed shoulder bash but only as long as the shoulder bash was not charged. If the shoulder bash was charged even a little then the Warden doesn't get the hilt bash if he whiffs. Damage reduced to 25 because he will be primary trading with dodge attacks.

2) The half swording stab (light attack input) is no longer guaranteed. It would become a 500ms undodgeable attack that can be blocked, parried and deflected. Damage lowered slightly to 10 damage and 10 bleed.

Could that work better?


Sorry to not read the bulk of your post but I wanted to correct you on something. The rework (if true) isn't giving us back pre nerf Shoulder bash.
As the ability to cancel it at anytime was only part of it. The other aspect was that he had zero recovery after a cancel. The rework isn't removing the recovery after a cancel. Which means he can still be punished.

EDIT: Forgot to mention i've been discussing with some competitive players. effectively the changes are allowing for a 200-300ms extra time to feint a bash. Which is deff more than we have now that being 300ms from start iirc. So you're looking at a lights attack speed window in which you can cancel. And you still have the mandatory recovery after. So you can't just spam shoulder bash cancel repeatedly.
Well the thing is they don't need to give him even an extra 200-300ms extra time to feint a bash. There is nothing wrong or under powered with the current time to cancel a shoulder bash is there? Extending the time for him to feint it is unnecessarily opening up room for it to become an abusive move at the worst and at the least if it ends up being benign it will be a pointless tweak that won't be giving anything of significant use to the Warden.

I personally don't think the Warden's playstyle should lean so heavily towards an infinite shoulder bash loop as that would be a completely missed opportunity to make something better and more fun out of this hero. There is an opportunity here to capitalise on this character's unique personality, i.e. the European knight's exclusive technique of half swording and it wouldn't even weaken the hero the way I am proposing it. It would strengthen his personality as a Knight character while also making him more competitive - that's two birds with one stone and a golden opportunity for Ubi to score player appreciation points.

At the end of the day I don't want to see another lazy rework that wipes away a crucial piece of a hero's personality like what they did with Orochi. They sacrificed Orochi's unique fun factor in return for making him more competitive in a very lazy way when they could have kept and even strengthened his personality while still making him just as competitive. I don't wish to see the same thing happen to the Warden. How fun a character is to play and to fight against is just as important for the health of this game as is making them competitive.

Knight_Raime
06-26-2018, 10:51 PM
@Vakris_One

It's not going to be more abusive than it currently is. They removed the ability to get a guaranteed bash with the rework from crushing counter strike. And you can already escape the bash loop by walking/rolling away. The recovery in place allows you to predict his bash and punish it. The increase of time for him to feint it doesn't change that. And it actually lets the warden be more flexible now. Because currently you had to predict what your enemy does perfectly in order to be able to cancel GB someone. This loosens that. You're still going to have to predict. But you're not forced to be perfect.

Yeah no one wants him to be more bash reliant. No one wanted conq to be more about his shield either. It's irrelevant. Bash is core to his kit design. It needs to be a more functional option than it currently is. By giving a mind game on his forward dash with his new attack (possibly 2) and giving a bit more flex play to his bash his "theme" that no one likes becomes viable. If it was currently viable he wouldn't be where he is in tier listing right now.

Your suggestion of making him a half swording knight ruins his current identity and theme. It would absolutely make sense for Warden to be a half swording hero. But it wouldn't be warden anymore. And everyone that is asking for this is only asking for it because they don't enjoy his current style. Which is fine. But destroying/removing a heros theme only based off of your dislike for the current style is not a good way to go about changing things.

I'm going to 100% disagree with Orochi's rework being lazy. I think you're just a bit salty that he lost his ability to execute with a dodge attack. Everything Orochi was capable of doing he's still capable of doing. Barring that execution, delaying his input on storm rush, and being able to que a light attack after a hurricane blast whiff. Orochi is still Orochi. Orochi is a pure counter attacker who primarily punishes on whiffs. That has not changed.

Riptide is a far more consistent whiff punish tool now. It lets you punish things like warlords zone and headbutt. Which previously he could not. And the price was a neat execution. Oh well. Storm rush was meant to be a cool/flashy way to start an attack. It ended up being a very predictable tool that had zero flexibility and was relegated to whiff punishing certain things. But due to how strong his parries were and double lights it was just safer to parry/whiff punish with double lights. Now it's an actual usable way in on someone. and you can cancel it into a deflect if someone tries to light you out of it. How is that not an awesome way to counter and attack?
Faster lights means Orochi has more consistent chip damage and can do short combos before ending his assault.

You call it lazy because you enjoyed the quirkyness of his old kit. And you know what? You're not wrong for enjoying the old kit. Just like people who enjoyed how for honor used to be are not wrong for liking that. However making false claims because you're upset isn't okay. The rework was far from lazy. And in terms of theme and over all function is the second best rework next to Kensei. The only "rework" that can be called lazy is Peace keepers.

Your ideas are not the correct ones or only right ones. And I wish you'd get off your high horse about it.

Vakris_One
06-26-2018, 11:15 PM
@Vakris_One

It's not going to be more abusive than it currently is. They removed the ability to get a guaranteed bash with the rework from crushing counter strike. And you can already escape the bash loop by walking/rolling away. The recovery in place allows you to predict his bash and punish it. The increase of time for him to feint it doesn't change that. And it actually lets the warden be more flexible now. Because currently you had to predict what your enemy does perfectly in order to be able to cancel GB someone. This loosens that. You're still going to have to predict. But you're not forced to be perfect.

Yeah no one wants him to be more bash reliant. No one wanted conq to be more about his shield either. It's irrelevant. Bash is core to his kit design. It needs to be a more functional option than it currently is. By giving a mind game on his forward dash with his new attack (possibly 2) and giving a bit more flex play to his bash his "theme" that no one likes becomes viable. If it was currently viable he wouldn't be where he is in tier listing right now.

Your suggestion of making him a half swording knight ruins his current identity and theme. It would absolutely make sense for Warden to be a half swording hero. But it wouldn't be warden anymore. And everyone that is asking for this is only asking for it because they don't enjoy his current style. Which is fine. But destroying/removing a heros theme only based off of your dislike for the current style is not a good way to go about changing things.

I'm going to 100% disagree with Orochi's rework being lazy. I think you're just a bit salty that he lost his ability to execute with a dodge attack. Everything Orochi was capable of doing he's still capable of doing. Barring that execution, delaying his input on storm rush, and being able to que a light attack after a hurricane blast whiff. Orochi is still Orochi. Orochi is a pure counter attacker who primarily punishes on whiffs. That has not changed.

Riptide is a far more consistent whiff punish tool now. It lets you punish things like warlords zone and headbutt. Which previously he could not. And the price was a neat execution. Oh well. Storm rush was meant to be a cool/flashy way to start an attack. It ended up being a very predictable tool that had zero flexibility and was relegated to whiff punishing certain things. But due to how strong his parries were and double lights it was just safer to parry/whiff punish with double lights. Now it's an actual usable way in on someone. and you can cancel it into a deflect if someone tries to light you out of it. How is that not an awesome way to counter and attack?
Faster lights means Orochi has more consistent chip damage and can do short combos before ending his assault.

You call it lazy because you enjoyed the quirkyness of his old kit. And you know what? You're not wrong for enjoying the old kit. Just like people who enjoyed how for honor used to be are not wrong for liking that. However making false claims because you're upset isn't okay. The rework was far from lazy. And in terms of theme and over all function is the second best rework next to Kensei. The only "rework" that can be called lazy is Peace keepers.

Your ideas are not the correct ones or only right ones. And I wish you'd get off your high horse about it.
Um... okay. Where did the attitude suddenly come from Raime? What is all this business about "false claims" you're laying at me without anything of the sort having occurred. I gave you my opinion. If I was giving you facts you'd know about it because I would supply it with evidence - seriously, how long have you been reading my posts and you don't know this about me?

I mean you came in here and started with an attitude of "yeah I didn't bother reading your OP but I'll comment anyway." and somehow now you're the one giving me attitude and for what exactly? Because I replied to you with my opinion about Warden? Well you know what, I'm not even going to bother replying to you further until you work out whatever it is that is bothering you because it certainly didn't come from me. You're coming at me as if something else from another thread annoyed you and you're dumping your excess heat towards me and that's not only unfair but it is also very rude.

Have a nice day.

Knight_Raime
06-26-2018, 11:27 PM
Um... okay. Where did the attitude suddenly come from Raime? What is all this business about "false claims" you're laying at me without anything of the sort having occurred. I gave you my opinion. If I was giving you facts you'd know about it because I would supply it with evidence - seriously, how long have you been reading my posts and you don't know this about me?

I mean you came in here and started with an attitude of "yeah I didn't bother reading your OP but I'll comment anyway." and somehow now you're the one giving me attitude and for what exactly? Because I replied to you with my opinion about Warden? Well you know what, I'm not even going to bother replying to you further until you work out whatever it is that is bothering you because it certainly didn't come from me. You're coming at me as if something else from another thread annoyed you and you're dumping your excess heat towards me and that's not only unfair but it is also very rude.

Have a nice day.

I didn't walk in here ticked off. I got ticked off because you called The rochi rework lazy claiming it changed his identity when it didn't. But some how you're completely fine with changing wardens identity with a rework you've proposed because you don't enjoy his current theme. It's hypocritical. And that annoys me. Something people seem to not understand with OG heros is that they really don't have good identities. They're severely limited. Warden is guy with sword that does the bashing. Warlord is the dude with a sword and shield and does the blocking. etc.

There is only so much they can do to make the OG roster viable without shattering their theme. Now, if you wanted to discuss your dream Warden rework fully knowing he wouldn't be Warden anymore because you want him to be about something different? That's fine. I just take issue with you claiming a rework ruined a theme but then you propose to change a different heros theme. Further more it's annoying to me that you're going to throw out the warden rework entirely just because Bash itself is going to be SLIGHTLY better.

Also I admit I was a bit of an arse by calling you salty about Orochi. That doesn't change my opinion though. I don't truly believe you're being objective with Orochi. Because I specifically remember you kicking up dust because they removed your ability to execute with riptide. So much that you actually made a more than one thread about it. Or at least several posts about it. So while I do apologize for the hostile behavior i'm not taking back my overall points.

Those being:
~it's hypocritical to want to change the theme of a hero because you're not fond of it but then turn around and call a different rework arse because it changed the theme of said hero. Wether it did or not is a different point. It's hypocritical either way.

~Orochi's theme remains intact. What he lost didn't change his nature. And what he gained improved upon his theme. You can argue that some of his "quirk" is gone. And that the quirk was the reason you liked the hero. And if that's what you're on about say that. Instead of dev bashing by calling a rework lazy and thematically destroying the hero. Because that comes off as hostile and bashy.

~And finally the rumored warden rework changes are making his current theme work. And people can be against that if they want to. But people need to understand acknowledge the devs goal is not to make OG heros brand new ones with the reworks. The reworks entire point is to make the admittingly weak/poor themes of the OG roster functional in current for honor.

Alustar.
06-26-2018, 11:46 PM
When two of the forums oldest buddies go head to head in an epic rap battle in my mind.

https://media.giphy.com/media/13cptIwW9bgzk6UVyr/source.gif

EvoX.
06-26-2018, 11:53 PM
These damage values are insane, we don't need another Highlander, he's already the easiest to play class in the game. Warden needs to be less of an SB spammer.

ChampionRuby50g
06-26-2018, 11:58 PM
When two of the forums oldest buddies go head to head in an epic rap battle in my mind.

https://media.giphy.com/media/13cptIwW9bgzk6UVyr/source.gif

Add some beer and chips, and thatís our minds as one.

Knight_Raime
06-27-2018, 12:03 AM
When two of the forums oldest buddies go head to head in an epic rap battle in my mind.

https://media.giphy.com/media/13cptIwW9bgzk6UVyr/source.gif

Made me chuckle. Wish I looked as cool as that dude.

ChampionRuby50g
06-27-2018, 12:12 AM
Made me chuckle. Wish I looked as cool as that dude.

Pretty sure that dude is Jason Momoa, judging by the arm tat. He is a pretty cool guy.

Knight_Raime
06-27-2018, 12:16 AM
Pretty sure that dude is Jason Momoa, judging by the arm tat. He is a pretty cool guy.

I really probably should start learning who celebs are. . ~.

ChampionRuby50g
06-27-2018, 12:22 AM
I really probably should start learning who celebs are. . ~.

On the contrary, one could argue itís a good thing you donít know every celeb that pops up on your screen aha.

There are only a few celebs who lead truly interesting lives IMO, and those few are worth following. Jason Momoa is one of those few.

Knight_Raime
06-27-2018, 12:30 AM
On the contrary, one could argue it’s a good thing you don’t know every celeb that pops up on your screen aha.

There are only a few celebs who lead truly interesting lives IMO, and those few are worth following. Jason Momoa is one of those few.

I can't even consistently name the people who play in the bands of music that I listen to. /:

Vakris_One
06-27-2018, 12:44 AM
I didn't walk in here ticked off. I got ticked off because you called The rochi rework lazy claiming it changed his identity when it didn't. But some how you're completely fine with changing wardens identity with a rework you've proposed because you don't enjoy his current theme. It's hypocritical. And that annoys me. Something people seem to not understand with OG heros is that they really don't have good identities. They're severely limited. Warden is guy with sword that does the bashing. Warlord is the dude with a sword and shield and does the blocking. etc.
Fair enough on calling me out on wanting a Warden change while disliking Orochi's change. It's selfish of me I admit. From my point of view it's that they had an opportunity they missed with Orochi and they're missing an opportunity with Warden as well. The reason I call it lazy is because it is the easier option to not worry about the fun factor of a character and only focus solely on them being made competitive no matter how ugly it ends up being. It's going to an extreme and I dislike that mentality.

You have to realise though that when I say Orochi's rework was lazy I am not insulting you personally. Unless you are the guy who personally oversaw Orochi's rework, in which case we may have legit beef :p



There is only so much they can do to make the OG roster viable without shattering their theme. Now, if you wanted to discuss your dream Warden rework fully knowing he wouldn't be Warden anymore because you want him to be about something different? That's fine. I just take issue with you claiming a rework ruined a theme but then you propose to change a different heros theme. Further more it's annoying to me that you're going to throw out the warden rework entirely just because Bash itself is going to be SLIGHTLY better.
I never said I wanted to throw out his rework entirely, you're making an assumption here. I am only focusing on his shoulder bash. Everything else that will (supposedly) be done to him I am fine with. So you're getting annoyed here because of an assumption you made rather than what I have actually written.

The only thing I am sharing my opinion on is his shoulder bash.



Also I admit I was a bit of an arse by calling you salty about Orochi. That doesn't change my opinion though. I don't truly believe you're being objective with Orochi. Because I specifically remember you kicking up dust because they removed your ability to execute with riptide. So much that you actually made a more than one thread about it. Or at least several posts about it. So while I do apologize for the hostile behavior i'm not taking back my overall points.
I accept your apology but I will say thay I didn't know it was a sin to voice ones opinion on a rework. I make no excuses for voicing my own personal opinion on a character occassionally nor will I ever as that is my right as a paying customer and a player. Ubi doesn't pay me to test their game or to shut my mouth about things I find ruin something that was previously fun.

As for objectivity; there is no one in this entire community that is 100% objective, yourself included.



Those being:
~it's hypocritical to want to change the theme of a hero because you're not fond of it but then turn around and call a different rework arse because it changed the theme of said hero. Wether it did or not is a different point. It's hypocritical either way.
Fair point. It is selfish of me to do that.



~Orochi's theme remains intact. What he lost didn't change his nature. And what he gained improved upon his theme. You can argue that some of his "quirk" is gone. And that the quirk was the reason you liked the hero. And if that's what you're on about say that. Instead of dev bashing by calling a rework lazy and thematically destroying the hero. Because that comes off as hostile and bashy.
With all due respect, don't tell me how to voice my opinion. I may, or may not, understand a bit more than you on when a developer is saving themselves from the bigger work load. We don't have to agree on the potential of Orochi's rework.



~And finally the rumored warden rework changes are making his current theme work. And people can be against that if they want to. But people need to understand acknowledge the devs goal is not to make OG heros brand new ones with the reworks. The reworks entire point is to make the admittingly weak/poor themes of the OG roster functional in current for honor.
The developers have made mistakes with hero kits before. I don't need to tell you of all people this. Just because they've become more efficient at it and now work more closely with the top pro players doesn't make them immune from fault nor criticism. If there is a better idea for the way a character's kit should function the devs are obliged to look into it, that is how the reworks became a thing in the first place. The DLC heroes came along and introduced brand new mechanics that were later integrated into the reworks of the vanilla roster.

I don't expect the devs to pay any kind of attention to a nobody like me but I still wish to throw these ideas across their bow because I think they're fun and not outrageously out there. It's not like I am suggesting the Warden grow gatling guns out of his arms after all. My primary concern as a non-pro player is to have characters that are fun to play and fun to fight. That doesn't mean I don't care about balance or how competitive they are but I will obviously place due importance on the fun factor as a player of this game.

Vakris_One
06-27-2018, 01:03 AM
When two of the forums oldest buddies go head to head in an epic rap battle in my mind.

https://media.giphy.com/media/13cptIwW9bgzk6UVyr/source.gif
What you build it up in your mind as:

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/22500000/Neo-Agent-Smith-in-The-Matrix-Revolutions-the-matrix-22575637-570-300.gif

What it is in reality:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/76/20/da/7620daa31293cfa698450d5ec2a64a1b.gif

;) :p

Knight_Raime
06-27-2018, 01:07 AM
@Vakris_One

Can you explain how you broke up my post like that? That way the reply after this comes out better.

~It's very tough to debate the fun factor. I personally find the new orochi fun. And he happens to be competitive now which is a bonus. I know you're not attacking me specifically by calling it lazy but it still offends me d:

~Fair enough. Just the overall vibe I got when you went on about his kit in general after disliking the bash changes. But i'll admit that's on me.

~It's not a sin. I was just making note of your behavior in the past to back up/justify my current view on your view of orochi. Which I can also admit is being hypocritical of me since people tend to pull stuff from my past into the argument all the time.

~Not attempting to tell you how to voice your opinion. I was just trying to phrase your feelings in a more palletable message to me whilst still trying to capture your main issue.

~For sure. I just feel like people sort of lose the objective of the reworks when discussing them quite often. I'm not saying I wouldn't enjoy a half swording Warden. Nor would I probably be opposed to whatever Orochi rework you may have had in mind. I'm simply pointing out that the main goal is to make these OG heros viable in the new For Honor. They're not trying to remake the heros. Probably a poor choice of words. Hopefully you get what I mean though.

Vakris_One
06-27-2018, 01:42 AM
@Vakris_One

Can you explain how you broke up my post like that? That way the reply after this comes out better.

~It's very tough to debate the fun factor. I personally find the new orochi fun. And he happens to be competitive now which is a bonus. I know you're not attacking me specifically by calling it lazy but it still offends me d:

~Fair enough. Just the overall vibe I got when you went on about his kit in general after disliking the bash changes. But i'll admit that's on me.

~It's not a sin. I was just making note of your behavior in the past to back up/justify my current view on your view of orochi. Which I can also admit is being hypocritical of me since people tend to pull stuff from my past into the argument all the time.

~Not attempting to tell you how to voice your opinion. I was just trying to phrase your feelings in a more palletable message to me whilst still trying to capture your main issue.

~For sure. I just feel like people sort of lose the objective of the reworks when discussing them quite often. I'm not saying I wouldn't enjoy a half swording Warden. Nor would I probably be opposed to whatever Orochi rework you may have had in mind. I'm simply pointing out that the main goal is to make these OG heros viable in the new For Honor. They're not trying to remake the heros. Probably a poor choice of words. Hopefully you get what I mean though.
I get ya. Ultimately we're both really passionate about the game and the stuff we like about it. And I know I definitely get a bit worked up about it sometimes :)

Post breakadge wise; it's a trick I picked up from another forum's formatting. To break a post up I put the "end quote" command at the end of the paragraph I want to quote. The command looks like this:

[/quote]

^ the brackets are what make it register as a command.

Then I just copy and paste the quote ID to continue quoting the rest of the post into quote boxes. The quote ID is the first words you can see in brackets every time you quote a post. Like for your post that I am quoting now it's this:




^ the numbers after your name is the specific quote ID reference and are auto generated by the website. You just have to copy paste it all.

And so when you put the end quote command at the end you compartmentalise a paragraph into a neat little quote box.

As we shall now demonstrate on Alustar

[QUOTE=alustar24]
I did not have sexual relations with that Shaman.

https://media.tenor.com/images/50ae83f7fcd4adf82ab36b89f86eef1f/tenor.gif


:D

Do not abuse this new found power you have acquired!.... Like I just did.... :p

Knight_Raime
06-27-2018, 01:50 AM
I get ya. Ultimately we're both really passionate about the game and the stuff we like about it. And I know I definitely get a bit worked up about it sometimes :)

Post breakadge wise; it's a trick I picked up from another forum's formatting. To break a post up I put the "end quote" command at the end of the paragraph I want to quote. The command looks like this:



^ the brackets are what make it register as a command.

Then I just copy and paste the quote ID to continue quoting the rest of the post into quote boxes. The quote ID is the first words you can see in brackets every time you quote a post. Like for your post that I am quoting now it's this:




^ the numbers after your name is the specific quote ID reference and are auto generated by the website. You just have to copy paste it all.

And so when you put the end quote command at the end you compartmentalise a paragraph into a neat little quote box.

As we shall now demonstrate on Alustar



:D

Do not abuse this new found power you have acquired!.... Like I just did.... :p

ffff that hurt my brain.

Vakris_One
06-27-2018, 01:55 AM
New tier 4 feat: forum website command jargon. Burns the land, boils the seas and auto-wins the faction war upon activation :)

Alustar.
06-27-2018, 02:16 AM
I get ya. Ultimately we're both really passionate about the game and the stuff we like about it. And I know I definitely get a bit worked up about it sometimes :)

Post breakadge wise; it's a trick I picked up from another forum's formatting. To break a post up I put the "end quote" command at the end of the paragraph I want to quote. The command looks like this:



^ the brackets are what make it register as a command.

Then I just copy and paste the quote ID to continue quoting the rest of the post into quote boxes. The quote ID is the first words you can see in brackets every time you quote a post. Like for your post that I am quoting now it's this:




^ the numbers after your name is the specific quote ID reference and are auto generated by the website. You just have to copy paste it all.

And so when you put the end quote command at the end you compartmentalise a paragraph into a neat little quote box.

As we shall now demonstrate on Alustar



:D

Do not abuse this new found power you have acquired!.... Like I just did.... :p

I support everything in this thread.

Jazz117Volkov
06-27-2018, 04:17 AM
Looks like you guys have talked this out pretty well, but if I may add my 2 cents.

The shoulder bash is a particular mechanic's moniker; a shallow aesthetic for something that's meant to achieve a specific result: guaranteed damage if it connects, or potentially countering your most likely escape. Actually ramming into them with your shoulder then cutting them with the sword is wholly aesthetic and has nothing to do with how the kit plays or why it works. You could literally swap the animations so the Warden bashes you with the sword then punches you in the face.

In regards to changes, making the shoulder bash guaranteed puts the attack chain on its head, unless it's a once and done attack where the follow up is also guaranteed, but in that case you may as well remove the whole thing and just have a single attack that does the combined damage of the guaranteed chain. And in that case, the Warden becomes something else, i.e. an avatar for demonstrating the light and heavy attack functions. Nothing more. If you don't play or like the Warden, I can understand why this might be appealing (while we're at it, lets take bleed off Peace Keeper, make all Orochi's attacks 900 ms, and remove the unblockable from Raider Fury), but if you main Warden, this is a joke.

Vakris_One
06-27-2018, 12:41 PM
Looks like you guys have talked this out pretty well, but if I may add my 2 cents.

The shoulder bash is a particular mechanic's moniker; a shallow aesthetic for something that's meant to achieve a specific result: guaranteed damage if it connects, or potentially countering your most likely escape. Actually ramming into them with your shoulder then cutting them with the sword is wholly aesthetic and has nothing to do with how the kit plays or why it works. You could literally swap the animations so the Warden bashes you with the sword then punches you in the face.

In regards to changes, making the shoulder bash guaranteed puts the attack chain on its head, unless it's a once and done attack where the follow up is also guaranteed, but in that case you may as well remove the whole thing and just have a single attack that does the combined damage of the guaranteed chain. And in that case, the Warden becomes something else, i.e. an avatar for demonstrating the light and heavy attack functions. Nothing more. If you don't play or like the Warden, I can understand why this might be appealing (while we're at it, lets take bleed off Peace Keeper, make all Orochi's attacks 900 ms, and remove the unblockable from Raider Fury), but if you main Warden, this is a joke.
So just to understand because the point got a bit lost with me and Raime: what problem do you guys find with basically just removing the infinite loop that Shoulder Bash can do? Because ultimately that's what my suggestion is about. Remove the infinite loop of bash > double light > bash > double light > bash > double light. And replace it with bash > get a guarranteed attack > end.

Jazz117Volkov
06-27-2018, 03:09 PM
So just to understand because the point got a bit lost with me and Raime: what problem do you guys find with basically just removing the infinite loop that Shoulder Bash can do? Because ultimately that's what my suggestion is about. Remove the infinite loop of bash > double light > bash > double light > bash > double light. And replace it with bash > get a guarranteed attack > end.

The infinite loop is a byproduct though, and most characters have one to a degree.

The issue isn't really the removal of the infinite loop, the issue is the gutting of the kit. The Warden is designed around the threat that the shoulder bash presents; it can hit you, it can hit you really hard, it can grab you, and it can bait you. The removal of those four abilities makes the Warden useless as a character. That said, I think there's a number of ways the infinite loop could be closed without directly effecting the appeal and capability of the kit, such as diminishing returns: after the 2nd bash, you only get a top light, and then nothing guaranteed at all, or you can only keep it infinite if you alternate between side and top, etc, thus cutting down the overall damage output. Veterans wouldn't notice because we almost never bash more than twice before cancelling into something else (because against other experienced players it just gets too dangerous), and it would prevent new players from getting pushed around so much. Of these two I would lean more towards the alternating option, but even then I don't think the infinite loop as much of an issue as you might think; like I said, most character have one, and most character have effective tools for punishing shoulder bash abuse.

Changing the bash mix-up to a single bash with guaranteed damage would firstly make the kit very awkward to play (Warden flows as a character because every light attack can be followed by a bash, even crushing counter), and like I pointed out before, if all the bash does is net you a single dose of guaranteed damage than, 1stly, the bash itself now serves no purpose other than "looking cool", and if, like you suggested, there are two options to follow a bash with, only the highest damaging version will ever be chosen, and in your case that was 42 dmg, iirc. So all you've done is given the Warden a faster 40 damage heavy to follow a light attack with. That's it. In the place of literally 85% of the kit, we get a new heavy attack...presumably unblockable. What happens when you dodge attack? Does the Warden get a 42 dmg attack on dodging a CC move?

How would the Warden bait CC moves?
How would the Warden break turtles?
How does the Warden counter attack?
How would the Warden fight assassins?
Where are all the mind games at?
How do you punish whiffs?
How do you set someone up for a guard break?
And the list goes on...

Shoulder bash is an amazingly versatile tool because of how it works. If you change how it works, you destroy the hero's identity and that is very unappealing to people who've gotten good with that toolkit. I might contradict myself here and say that maybe the infinite loop is necessary, because the Warden gets so much from the threat the bash presents. When you apply pressure to someone and you understand their counters, you can set up to counter their counters. It makes the Warden a very strong hero in the right hands, and really the only kit in the game that make you feel like you can advance against most heroes safely.

Sorry for the monster post. I hope you're seeing the picture I'm drawing, as it were.