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XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 03:14 PM
Hi all,

This was a subject that was raised just before the Novotny thread was closed. Sadly, I was at work and couldnt reply before it was closed.

The reason soldiers go into combat and dangerous situations has just as much to do with standing by their fellow soldiers, and not letting them down, as it has to do with training.

Training is only a part of it. By the way, soldiers are also not robots trained to do as they are told and accept orders. Well, not in the British Army, the arent!!!!

Believe me, if an order is obviously wrong and will result in pointless deaths or whatever, it will be questioned.

I cant believe people still refer to soldiers as robots or something similar.

EuroLord



To the Brave comes Honour and Victory. To the Weak comes Defeat and Dishonour.

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 03:14 PM
Hi all,

This was a subject that was raised just before the Novotny thread was closed. Sadly, I was at work and couldnt reply before it was closed.

The reason soldiers go into combat and dangerous situations has just as much to do with standing by their fellow soldiers, and not letting them down, as it has to do with training.

Training is only a part of it. By the way, soldiers are also not robots trained to do as they are told and accept orders. Well, not in the British Army, the arent!!!!

Believe me, if an order is obviously wrong and will result in pointless deaths or whatever, it will be questioned.

I cant believe people still refer to soldiers as robots or something similar.

EuroLord



To the Brave comes Honour and Victory. To the Weak comes Defeat and Dishonour.

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 03:41 PM
Agreed...Take the marines, i.e. They like to say they´re trained as killing machines, but they still are human beings, with all the consequences. I´ve read a lot, a lot of Vietnam war books, and the one thing each of them has the same point of view is that those men fought not for their country, not for the South vietnamese, but for their brothers in arms.
I guess that in WW2 it was just about the same, or maybe with a little more of idealism about freedom...but soldiers fought not only because they had to, but because their camarades did it...

<center>PATRIA Y HONOR
<img src=http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SgC0BAYXu3Ft4dbPEzs6M4eZf0A!qec0t1WkurDrK6Q0TV0lY fpkeHHrD5LuaVzXJQ6qOkKtYgnXXYbwSV39vh30VyRPTjG81fM rhMoRCs4YRhDD5Qo3Og/Cueceleches0.jpg?dc=4675424998946727344"></center>

Zayets
07-16-2003, 03:55 PM
EuroLord_Ito wrote:
- Hi all,
-
- This was a subject that was raised just before the
- Novotny thread was closed. Sadly, I was at work and
- couldnt reply before it was closed.
-
- The reason soldiers go into combat and dangerous
- situations has just as much to do with standing by
- their fellow soldiers, and not letting them down, as
- it has to do with training.
-
- Training is only a part of it. By the way, soldiers
- are also not robots trained to do as they are told
- and accept orders. Well, not in the British Army,
- the arent!!!!
-
- Believe me, if an order is obviously wrong and will
- result in pointless deaths or whatever, it will be
- questioned.
-
- I cant believe people still refer to soldiers as
- robots or something similar.
-
- EuroLord

I don't think that was the reason for the "fight" in that thread /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Zayets out

http://www.emicad.nl/~justdoit/il2/logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 03:59 PM
Hi,

No, it was not the reason for the fight on that thread, but it was something that needed to be clarified.

EuroLord



To the Brave comes Honour and Victory. To the Weak comes Defeat and Dishonour.

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 04:00 PM
It works like this:
1. To get you to a combat zone - all means are used - idealism, "brainwashing", discipline, fear of punishment, human stupidity - all means are good.
2. When you are there - it is too late to "question the orders" - you do all to stay alive and have you buddies to survive. Training, believe in the "rightness" of your cause, emotional stability - all help, but that comes after.


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 06:06 PM
I'll take minor issue with a couple of things here.

I'm a Marine combat veteran.

1) You will find a couple of things in very effective units. First, warriors WILL fight for their comrades, but to make the categorical statement that there are not other motivations is wrong. Generally, the motivations such as patriotism are associated with joining the branch of service and then enduring (and that's the right word, BTW...) the training - but they don't stop there. Pride, honor, discipline and esprit de corps are things not taken lightly by highly effective combat units. A touch of arrogance is also a good thing in a warrior.

2) In combat the #1 motivator of generally ineffective units is fear. Fear of death in particular. In effective units, the #1 motivator is will. Will means that you are going to eliminate your enemy FIRST, before he gets the chance to eliminate you. It means overcoming fear and enforcing your will on the enemy. Ineffective units never get beyond the fear part.

3) TRAINING is the most important element in preparation for combat, not the human ties between men. Patton once said:

"Untutored courage is useless in the face of educated bullets."

Training allows the Marine to overcome his fear and enforce his will on the enemy. You can have all the good wishes for your buddies to survive in the world, but if you do not know how to apply the tools and weapons available, and do not have the will to use them you're still going to lose.

4) Sometimes combat requires that subordinates DO NOT think about what is in their own or in their comrades best interest. Orders must be carried out and there is no opportunity in some cases to make a decision as to what orders do or don't make sense. Sometimes a commander HAS to say "hold this position at ALL costs", and that order MUST be followed.

5) In most cases, good leaders give their subordinates broad goals and allow the subordinate to figure out how to accomplish the goal, but the goal itself is non-negotiable. Certain orders were given in my career in combat that I would have shot a subordinate dead on the spot over if he chose to disobey for any reason whatsoever. BTW - that action IS legal in combat according to the UCMJ.



************************************************** **********

I'll take my car with 382 fully forged cubic inches of fire-breathing, MPFI, nitrous sniffing, all aluminum, tire-roasting Chevrolet power, thank you very much.


"If you can turn, you aren't going fast enough."

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 07:25 PM
When I said - ".it is too late to question the orders." I did not mean that somebody would or should question.

In my life I spend very short time in combat, under enemy fire. I remember now one long nightmarish blur, when I kept shooting, reloading, shooting.

We were all volunteers, part of the guard unit, well trained and prepared (as we thought). We knew and trusted our weapons (the privilege not all the soldiers enjoy).

Then the "fog of war" descended on us - we were ambushed. Whole road to our destination was one long, "low intencity" ambush...

Our order didn't cover all the circumstances (as you said - ."broad goals" were given.).
We could not deploy all of our weapons to the fullest. I, for example, had to fire sniper rifle from the moving APC. We also found, that side armor of BTR-60 does not protect against high power rifle shot from 100m distance, from the incline, from above... That was very unpleasant surprise. There was no officer to give orders, and all orders that our sergeant was giving us were carried through, but they all made sense and would have been done even without orders.

I was afraid to get shot; I didn't want any of my buddies to get killed (or lost - which was the same thing). We could not leave our posts "to impose our will on the enemy", all we could do was - to shoot. We all were scared, but none seized watching or shooting.

Does this make us an "ineffective unit" in your book?


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942


Message Edited on 07/16/03 02:27PM by Bogun

Message Edited on 07/16/0302:29PM by Bogun

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 08:12 PM
I cannot truly evaluate effectiveness of the unit from afar. There are only three ways to do it:

1) Watch it fight. Up close and personal.

2) Fight with it.

3) Fight against it.

I've done the above with varied units from varied nations.

Some were good, some were REALLY good, some were bad, some were pathetic.

Universally, the best units had high esprit de corps - bordering on arrogance. They were well trained - trained to the edge of perfection, but not dulled by inactivity or over-training on pointless details.



"When I said - ".it is too late to question the orders." I did not mean that somebody would or should question."

The difference is noted and valid.



"I was afraid to get shot; I didn't want any of my buddies to get killed (or lost - which was the same thing)."

Very normal feelings. From what I read though, you continued to ACT. The only questions is whether YOU believe your actions were correct given the circumstances.



"We could not leave our posts "to impose our will on the enemy", all we could do was - to shoot."

Here's a hallmark of the US Marine Corps - we HATE sitting there and taking it. Even in the defensive, Marines think offensively.

Do you believe your unit had that type of mentality or doctrine?

The thought process is something like:

'I'm not gonna sit here and get killed. I'm going to take the fight to THEM. I'm going to kill THEM before they can kill me. I'm going to manuver around them, run over them, close with them and destroy them. I will not let fear or inaction cause me or my comrades to suffer or shame to be brought upon myself, my unit, my Corps, or my country..'



"We all were scared, but none seized watching or shooting."

Sounds like you guys were on the right track there. But again, the question remains yours:

Did your unit perform well? Did it cause fear in the enemy? Did it sieze the initiative and keep it? Did it force the enemy to react to your will, and not the other way around? Did it use manuver (even in the defensive, manuver is possible)and firepower to pin him down and kill him?



************************************************** ****

I'll take my car with 382 fully forged cubic inches of fire-breathing, MPFI, nitrous sniffing, all aluminum, tire-roasting Chevrolet power, thank you very much.


"If you can turn, you aren't going fast enough."

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 08:27 PM
"Believe me, if an order is obviously wrong and will result in pointless deaths or whatever, it will be questioned."


Not always unhappily /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

http://www.holycross-hermitage.com/pages/Orthodox_Life/cossacks.htm

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 08:59 PM
Looks like I`m not the only one here to miss that Nowotny thread /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

did not expect FB will reach that kind of "more than a game" dimension - and BEFORE the patch /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 09:02 PM
SpearchuckerJ wrote:
- Did your unit perform well? Did it cause fear in the
- enemy? Did it sieze the initiative and keep it? Did
- it force the enemy to react to your will, and not
- the other way around? Did it use manuver (even in
- the defensive, manuver is possible)and firepower to
- pin him down and kill him?


There was a "whole" platoon of us, in three APC spread in the long column of about 40 heavy tracks. Our orders were - not to stop for anything, protect tracks, not to leave any crew of the damaged tracks behind and to provide the suppressive fire. There were another two squads of para in the column, one at the head one at the rear of the convoy, who charged the ambush positions from the flanks. They brought back two old rifles as trophies. We lost three tracks, but nobody was killed, just few broken bones.

Did we instill fear in the enemy? Did we sieze the initiative? Don't know. They run away every time, but I'm sure to come back and try to plunder another convoy next day.

I don't remember thinking of the "pride of the core" or ".shame to be brought upon myself, my unit, my Corps, or my country..." I was scared and I was pi**ed, that I could not use my SVD effectively. I knew - I was not doing enough, not as much as I could have.
I remember two things I wanted - one - for whole thing to end, second - we stop and disperse so I could find good shooting position and aim for a change, instead of just wasting my ammo.





AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 09:49 PM
Its called fight or flight. If you are able to fight back by any means you do, if not you get out of there in a hurry.

with most combat units they are trained continually to fight so they will do such. And those that are poorly trained tend to flee rather then fight

It also depends on the situation. I cant remember who said it but it goes along the liunes of you can not defeat a people that dont want to be defeated.

there are so many things in a combat situation that can go right or wrong that will dictate the outcome of that battle and that war.

And with most countries if an order is unlawful it is in your right to refuse an order



"Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman. It was my view that no kill was worth the life of a wingman. . . . Pilots in my unit who lost wingmen on this basis were prohibited from leading a [section]. They were made to fly as wingman, instead."
Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann "Karaya One"

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 10:19 PM
Bogun and Spearchucker both elluded to another fact that niether really made a point on. Anger. I have read tons of combat soldier accounts from all of the really brutal large scale wars so far in Modern US history. Espirit de corps is one of the biggest factors in unit cohesion but a general rule also is that soldiers tend to get real p!ssed when people start shooting at them and this seems to be another motivating factor for as Spearchucker said to take the fight to the enemy. I'm not talking overwelming rage here, but what you might call controlled anger. Some of the accounts that show that best are from the 10th corps retreat from the Chinese forces in Korea when they were basically pushed back into the sea at Inchon. Those men fought and died in horendous weather conditions against an enemy that showed little regard for themselves and were simply numerically overwelming. You would think human nature would call for those troops to want to just get out and let someone else pick up the fight, but they wanted another shot at the ChiCom forces, to make them pay for what they did that winter.