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View Full Version : P38 - A poor man's 109?



Jagdklinger
05-24-2005, 04:35 AM
I have been flying a P38 a bit lately and was struck by the similarities with my more usual 109G/K rides.

-Both have high-speed maneouvrability problems (but I feel the 109 gets off more lightly)
-Both have a mix of cannons and MG concentrated in the nose. (the plentiful ammo of the HMGs vs the 1-shot kill of the Mk108)
-Both have good low-speed manouvrability (With flaps open, the P38 has a stunning turn rate for a twin: however for overall 'agility' the 109 seems to hold an edge. Does anyone have any roll rate data?)
-Climb rate is good in both, with the 109 edging ahead again (and the 109K rocket-ship noticeably better)
-Both have average to good speed, with the 109 suffering from a more temperamental engine, but having that weird 'brake-chute decceleration' advantage.

I see from quite a few posts that P38 pilots (generally) seem to fear the 109 more than the 190. The 190 is arguably the more lethal of the two, but from what I see (with my limited experience) at least the P38 holds some advantages over it (climb rate, turn) while losing out more severely in other areas. However, the 109 seems to closely match the P38, trumping it slightly in every department. (except for oil splatter http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif)

Since I see this post has already wandered into the free-fire zone, I might as well further suggest:

P51 is a poor man's Fw190
(both great high speed agility, both good speed, firepower traded for gunsight & visibility)

A P47 is a poor man's He111
(almost impossible to down, agility of a constipated elephant, lots of peashooters, excellent bombload, stable gun platform, both seem surprsingly lethal in hands of the AI. Both best flown far from the enemy -in the case of the P47, at 8,000m)

*On a more serious note, what planes share similarities and thus are 'easy' to change between? I.e. a Yak3 and a Spitfire?
A P51 and a 190D? A Yak9U and a P51?

(Hristos,you may not compare UFOs and Spitfires)

Jagdklinger
05-24-2005, 04:35 AM
I have been flying a P38 a bit lately and was struck by the similarities with my more usual 109G/K rides.

-Both have high-speed maneouvrability problems (but I feel the 109 gets off more lightly)
-Both have a mix of cannons and MG concentrated in the nose. (the plentiful ammo of the HMGs vs the 1-shot kill of the Mk108)
-Both have good low-speed manouvrability (With flaps open, the P38 has a stunning turn rate for a twin: however for overall 'agility' the 109 seems to hold an edge. Does anyone have any roll rate data?)
-Climb rate is good in both, with the 109 edging ahead again (and the 109K rocket-ship noticeably better)
-Both have average to good speed, with the 109 suffering from a more temperamental engine, but having that weird 'brake-chute decceleration' advantage.

I see from quite a few posts that P38 pilots (generally) seem to fear the 109 more than the 190. The 190 is arguably the more lethal of the two, but from what I see (with my limited experience) at least the P38 holds some advantages over it (climb rate, turn) while losing out more severely in other areas. However, the 109 seems to closely match the P38, trumping it slightly in every department. (except for oil splatter http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif)

Since I see this post has already wandered into the free-fire zone, I might as well further suggest:

P51 is a poor man's Fw190
(both great high speed agility, both good speed, firepower traded for gunsight & visibility)

A P47 is a poor man's He111
(almost impossible to down, agility of a constipated elephant, lots of peashooters, excellent bombload, stable gun platform, both seem surprsingly lethal in hands of the AI. Both best flown far from the enemy -in the case of the P47, at 8,000m)

*On a more serious note, what planes share similarities and thus are 'easy' to change between? I.e. a Yak3 and a Spitfire?
A P51 and a 190D? A Yak9U and a P51?

(Hristos,you may not compare UFOs and Spitfires)

WOLFMondo
05-24-2005, 05:42 AM
I'd disagree about the 109 vs P38.

P38 is way harder to shoot down. At high speed its roll is better than the 109 easily. P38 is faster on the deck. P38 packs way more of a punch, especially with gun pods, it makes a mess of any plane it hits with those and there is virtually no performance loss.

Lets not even compare ground pounding ability.

P51 vs 190 - Gotta agree, fly a 190 then a P51. P51 feels heavy and unresponsive but the view, cockpit layout (D verison) and gunsight are far superior to the 190's.

P47/he111 - Are you on crack? P47 even at low altitudes and moderate speeds can out manouver 109's with its roll.

Planes you can switch between - A20 and P47. A20 is like a P47 that can turn well and has 2 rear gunners. What more can you ask for?

PBNA-Boosher
05-24-2005, 06:15 AM
Learn to fly them, dude, before thou postest:

P-38 is excellent and can easily counter the 190 and 109, it just takes skill. Use energy, don't turn.

P-51 can counter 190's fine. I've had no real problem with that. Same with 109's. Get close, fire snapshots, see wings fall apart and engines flame.

P-47- Can outroll plenty of other planes, structurally stable as the earth, dude, It takes an earthquake to break it apart. And those guns ain't peashooters if you actually fire at convergence.

BSS_CUDA
05-24-2005, 06:21 AM
the 38 in the right hands is leathal. I would more compare it to the 190 than the 109, with the only advantages is loss of elevator at speeds over 400MPH,and roll but the roll can be countered. the 38 will flat outclass the 109 in almost every aspect. very very seldom willa 190 pilot out fly me to get a kill. at any alt, they usually jump me while I'm engaged with another plane, then they hit you with the howitzers and your toast. as for the 109 the 38 will out turn the K easily but not out run it. where you can out run the G2 but not out turn it. every other 109 can give you problems, but you are on fairly equal footing with a slight advantage to the 109 G-10, G-14, I have found that I can jump into just about any plane and do well with it, but flying the 38 took dedication to become good with it. it has quirks that you need to be aware of. and you must constantly push the envelope to get the advantage. and if you push her too far she'll bite you in the bottom real quick with an almost unrecoverable flat spin. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

EDIT: P.S. after rereading your post I would agree, the 38 is more along the lines of the 109 and more on equal foot with it. depending one which 109. and there is the hard part. telling them apart one from another http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Jagdklinger
05-24-2005, 06:52 AM
Cuda, you seem to be one of the resident P38 gurus around here - I am keen on learning the foibles of the P38 (as it has to be one of THE coolest planes) - any tips would be appreciated (I have been asking around, having resurrected the 'Uber P38 thread')

My problem with the P38 is that it keeps up speed well (I rarely drop below 400 IAS) but that is where (like 109) I have problems.
Also, I enjoy being able to run the engine full bore for more than 3 sec without overheating - so it is 'faster' than any 109 in a sustained battle. I've heard some P38 pilots can cut engines to turn sharper? Have you done this/is this truly workable in a dogfight?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> P47/he111 - Are you on crack? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Learn to fly them, dude, before thou postest </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Boosher, Wolf... ...relax, boys. Not everything was 100% serious there. Although I am NOT a P47 fan and DO secretly think it is a poor man's 190 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Deedsundone
05-24-2005, 06:54 AM
Is he really that poor if he can afford a P-51 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

p1ngu666
05-24-2005, 07:09 AM
if your average in a p38, 109 is better in pretty much every area in my experience

vs 190 u can mix it up good tho http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

S.taibanzai
05-24-2005, 07:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">1-shot kill of the Mk108 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats normal dude

BSS_CUDA
05-24-2005, 07:17 AM
Unfortunatelly I dont have a throttle quadrant, but I have tried switching engines during a fight and have found not advantage ( FM limitations? ) I dont BnZ with it to be honest. I jump into the middle of the mess and start shooting, some say I'm crazy, but I more than hold my own, it not uncommon for me to shot down 1-2 109's or 190's in a mele then look to my 6 and see the entire LW airforce shoot that blue Shat at me
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif I ran into a good 190 pilot the other day ( didnt get his name tho http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif ) we started our fight at 21K feet and after 15 minutes we ended up on the deck where he made his mistake http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif and I got on his 6, and just as I was about to open up then I made my mistake http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif and flat spun it, and crashed and I watched him fly off.

with the 38 be agressive. but be carefull she will bite you, but not without warning, forward vis is good USE IT. when turning try to keep a nose down attitude, less likley to stall. use your rudders you will double your roll ( you can stay with the 190's )and vastly increase your turn rate, you can chew a 109 in a rolling scissors with rudder. stay away from the L if possible the J is a better fighter ( less likley to stall ) use your flaps combat to start and below 230 MPH use take off, you can turn with or inside most 109's and ALL 190's. make your shots count, you will have to work harder in a 38 than any plane I've flown to get proficient at in a dogfight. and stick with it there are many time I almost gave up on her after getting my butt handed to me for 3-4-5 days in a row, but I just couldnt bring myself to leave my girl http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif
now I am to the point that I go where "Angels fear to tread" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

VW-IceFire
05-24-2005, 07:27 AM
In a P-38, I'm more afraid of the FW190 than the 109. Once on the six of either of these planes in a P-38L, however, there is really no escape without external intervention.

Tater-SW-
05-24-2005, 08:16 AM
A rich man's 109. I'm positive the P-38 would have cost more at the time, just for having 2 engines alone.

tater

BSS_CUDA
05-24-2005, 08:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
A rich man's 109. I'm positive the P-38 would have cost more at the time, just for having 2 engines alone.

tater </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

depending on your sources any where between $95,000 and $110,000 per plane compared to the P-51 at about $55,000 per plane, only the Jug was comprable in price for U.S. fighters

Jagdklinger
05-24-2005, 05:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> with the 38 be agressive. but be carefull she will bite you, but not without warning, forward vis is good USE IT. when turning try to keep a nose down attitude, less likley to stall. use your rudders you will double your roll ( you can stay with the 190's )and vastly increase your turn rate, you can chew a 109 in a rolling scissors with rudder. stay away from the L if possible the J is a better fighter ( less likley to stall ) use your flaps combat to start and below 230 MPH use take off, you can turn with or inside most 109's and ALL 190's. make your shots count, you will have to work harder in a 38 than any plane I've flown to get proficient at in a dogfight. and stick with it there are many time I almost gave up on her after getting my butt handed to me for 3-4-5 days in a row, but I just couldnt bring myself to leave my girl </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the advice. I enjoy the P38, but it feels a little weird to fly a twin, especially one that can turn (or almost turn) with a 109

*Good point about the rudders in the roll. I've gotten a bit lazy after flying a 190A campaign. The 190 roll rate can't be real- it's just to... ...dare I say it? UFO-ish.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

*Takeoff below 230MPH - how does that translate on the speedbar? (Yes, I use it. Live with it)

*Gunpods.I've never considered them, basically because I've never read anything about them in RL (as opposed to LW MG151 pods). Are they worth packing?

*L vs J. Is the J slightly faster too? But the air brakes on the L - what advantages do they confer in a DF?

AerialTarget
05-24-2005, 05:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jagdklinger:
I enjoy the P38, but it feels a little weird to fly a twin, especially one that can turn (or almost turn) with a 109 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Would it surprise you to know that it was a better turner in real life, because of its gentle stall? Moreover, it was able to outturn the one oh nine, by most accounts.

ImpStarDuece
05-24-2005, 06:22 PM
Would it suprise you to know that when captured LW flyers on the Western Front were interviewed they said that the fighter they would most like to go up against in combat was the P-38?

Oh, and the aircraft they would least like to go up against was the Spitfire http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jagdklinger
05-24-2005, 06:36 PM
Oops - Cuda - I just realised you have already replied on the 'Uber P38 thread'

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Convergence doesnt matter, altho mine is set at 110, for when I'm flying other aircraft. if a lufty comes at me headon I'll openup early, they usually break off then I'm at the advantage. I've sawed off 190 wings @ 4-500 meters before

flaps jamb over 240 MPH dont know the KPH, you can deploy any setting below 230 MPH

190's just out fly them, you out perform them in ALMOST every area except roll and dive and they can be countered
109's it depends on the model, some you can out turn, some you can out run if neccesary

the 38 prefers the verticle, you got me thinking, do I have any trademark manouver? I couldnt think of one, I usually try getting my opponent into a pattern and set him up. and if I dont straight out down him just when he thinks he's going to get on my 6 I pull up slightly, barrelroll, and drop right into guns range on his 6, I cant begin to count how many kills I've gotten this way. as Lord Vader said " all to easy " I fly by feel more than anything, which sometimes bites me in the **** Big Grin </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

*110m convergance? seems a little low? Since they're nose mounted I thought you'd set them higher than usual for better LR shooting - i.e. if I usually set my P51 at 150m or so, then 200m+ for P38? As at 100m the shots are going to be dead on anyway...

AerialTarget
05-24-2005, 07:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
Would it suprise you to know that when captured LW flyers on the Western Front were interviewed they said that the fighter they would most like to go up against in combat was the P-38? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Would it surprise you to know that he was talking about attacking them with the advantage of surprise, not being attacked by them, and that the P-38s in question were the early models without dive brakes or aileron boost?

Other German aces have said that the P-38 was only vulnerable to attacks from six oh clock low.

Anyway, I shall waste no more time with arguing with you. History knows what kind of a plane the P-38 was, and that will not change no matter what fanboys and developers say.

BSS_CUDA
05-24-2005, 08:21 PM
I have it set that low for when I fly other planes. I havent noticed a difference with the convergence in the 38, probably as it should be with nose mounted guns there is no need for it, your talkin a cone of fire of about 1 meter in diameter. I dont use the Gun pods I prefer the speed to the firepower. as for the brakes I'll use the L when I ground pound, but I use the J when I DF. I tend to forget I deployed them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif, they can give you a momentary tactical advantage, but if your not carefull you can scrub too much E, I've found that if you cant do it with combat flaps you probably shouldn't be attempting it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

BSS_Goat
05-25-2005, 10:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
Oh, and the aircraft they would least like to go up against was the Spitfire http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's only because the ones that went up against the Mustang never made it home. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Sgian_Dubh_001
05-25-2005, 10:00 PM
Cuda,

What response curves do you use when you fly the 38?

My curves which I like for most everything make the 38s feel very sluggish.

BSS_CUDA
05-25-2005, 10:20 PM
I use a Cyborg EVO stick and have everything set to 100%, its really a matter of what your comfortable with and your stick. at first she will feel sluggish but as you learn to use the rudder she will start to snap around quicker. granted she doesnt snap like the 190 or a spit, but keep in mind she's 17,000 pounds combat weight as compared to around 10-12,000 lbs for most other aircraft, the more you fly it the more comfortable you'll get with her handling.

AerialTarget
05-25-2005, 10:50 PM
By the way, the pilot's handbook says that snap rolls are prohibited manuevers because when a Thirty Eight does go into a spin, it tends to flatten out after three or so turns. Fortunately, the real life P-38 didn't have a tendency to spin in stalls.