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Hormly
06-21-2018, 05:38 PM
Listening to the warriors den, did I just hear them say they are going to normalize all side dodges??!

Oh happy day, I sense this might be the first step towards ending the Conquerors tyrannical SB reign at long last :o

Fairemont
06-21-2018, 06:30 PM
Or making it worse.

PepsiBeastin
06-21-2018, 06:47 PM
No more offensive ultra instinct highlanders?

Kahuf1
06-21-2018, 07:23 PM
No more offensive ultra instinct highlanders?

Delete his only way to avoid free damage from enemy...

KitingFatKidsEZ
06-21-2018, 07:42 PM
I mean.., aramusha really needed a nerf tbh... Kappa

*jokes aside, good change! Some consistency is good.

Knight_Raime
06-21-2018, 09:33 PM
Conq's side dash recovery was actually bad. Just like his forward. But him bashing on either shortens the recovery because he's attacking and not raw dodging.
And actually forcing everyones side dodge to 600ms while is a good change in 90% of the situations it now means everyone has to react to conq's forward bash game on prediction instead of reaction like some could. So conq technically got a buff against certain heros.

There was no mention of them changing highlanders offensive form dodge either.

Vakris_One
06-21-2018, 09:40 PM
Conq's side dash recovery was actually bad. Just like his forward. But him bashing on either shortens the recovery because he's attacking and not raw dodging.
And actually forcing everyones side dodge to 600ms while is a good change in 90% of the situations it now means everyone has to react to conq's forward bash game on prediction instead of reaction like some could. So conq technically got a buff against certain heros.

There was no mention of them changing highlanders offensive form dodge either.
I thought this change would only affect the dodge recovery frames meaning that Conq initiating a shield bash would not be made faster but remain the same. Only his raw dodge would be affected like everyone else. Is this not the case?

Knight_Raime
06-22-2018, 12:45 AM
I thought this change would only affect the dodge recovery frames meaning that Conq initiating a shield bash would not be made faster but remain the same. Only his raw dodge would be affected like everyone else. Is this not the case?

What I was getting at was pre this change conq's normal dashes had poor dash recovery. Meaning he has always been forced into bashing after a dodge. I was trying to point out to the OP that by them normalizing dash recoveries that made conq's empty dashes better not worse and that it also indirectly buffs conqs forward bash game because 600ms people have to dodge his bash timing on prediction. Where as heros with 500ms recovery or better could avoid it on reaction.

His actual bash isn't being buffed directly. it's still going to be the same speeds. I apologize for the confusion.

Hormly
06-22-2018, 05:01 AM
to me this feels like the first step towards further balance changes, once side dodges are normalized they can now universally tweek which moves can be punished or not, such as the Conqs SB

BlowHard74728
06-22-2018, 05:41 AM
Out of curiosity does anyone know what pk's side dodge recovery is rn before the change is coming into play. Didnt they move hers from 500 to 600?

Tyrjo
06-22-2018, 07:05 AM
Out of curiosity does anyone know what pk's side dodge recovery is rn before the change is coming into play. Didnt they move hers from 500 to 600?

It's 600ms.

KitingFatKidsEZ
06-22-2018, 09:15 AM
Out of curiosity does anyone know what pk's side dodge recovery is rn before the change is coming into play. Didnt they move hers from 500 to 600?

yes PKs sidedodge was already at 600ms

*edit: damn u tyrjo :(

DrinkinMehStella
06-22-2018, 09:19 AM
what does that mean normalise dodge? I hope it doesn't affect my kensei

KitingFatKidsEZ
06-22-2018, 09:25 AM
what does that mean normalise dodge? I hope it doesn't affect my kensei

it means all characters will have 600ms recovery on their normal side dodges without additional inputs.
Normalized = made equal
Kensei wont be worse. It only affects a few characters. Shaman, warden and aramusha most notably, still not sure what will happen with off stance HL. That could be major as well.

full list of current speed:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit#gid=0

Hormly
06-22-2018, 05:32 PM
i think the assassins were all around 500 and the big boys were around 700?

So now we're all going to meet in the middle, which is great

CandleInTheDark
06-22-2018, 06:00 PM
I'd have to see how this plays out but this is a trend that is starting to concern me.

Bearing in mind I play characters across all the classes here, to the best of my understanding, part of the assassins' dodge superiority was because they had reflex guard. Over the time since, they have lost advantage in guard switch (which probably needed to happen, what I wish is that they worked more on allowing the slower classes to have opportunities to put shorter ranged characters out of their range without being blitzed by lights), their advantage in back dodge and now side dodge standardized.

So if the assassins have lost where their strengths were, it seems to me that if the devs aren't careful they are either going to leave assassins with a disadvantage as they have taken away their strengths without addressing their weaknesses (shinobi's lifepool and gladiator's and shinobi's guard decay excepting which I think made them more interesting) or they are going to have to give assassins things the other classes have which will make the distinction between the different classes name only and that is something that would be sad to see.

Bear in mind I don't want imbalance, I want all classes to be equally viable, I just don't know if the standardization trend is the best way to do it.

Knight_Raime
06-22-2018, 07:03 PM
I'd have to see how this plays out but this is a trend that is starting to concern me.

Bearing in mind I play characters across all the classes here, to the best of my understanding, part of the assassins' dodge superiority was because they had reflex guard. Over the time since, they have lost advantage in guard switch (which probably needed to happen, what I wish is that they worked more on allowing the slower classes to have opportunities to put shorter ranged characters out of their range without being blitzed by lights), their advantage in back dodge and now side dodge standardized.

So if the assassins have lost where their strengths were, it seems to me that if the devs aren't careful they are either going to leave assassins with a disadvantage as they have taken away their strengths without addressing their weaknesses (shinobi's lifepool and gladiator's and shinobi's guard decay excepting which I think made them more interesting) or they are going to have to give assassins things the other classes have which will make the distinction between the different classes name only and that is something that would be sad to see.

Bear in mind I don't want imbalance, I want all classes to be equally viable, I just don't know if the standardization trend is the best way to do it.

Assassins have dodge attacks/deflects which let them deal with certain unique situations. Like for instance any assassin baring pk and glad can delay their dodge attack to avoid conq's bash mix up. And deflect gives assassins the ability to ignore lawbringers follow up light after a shove. Not to mention standard guard heros have a thing called "guard switch recovery" which prevents them from doing certain actions after switching for a brief period of time.

Normalizing dodge recovery doesn't really remove assassins identity. And even if it did making side dodge recovery and back dash recovery the same across all boards means everyone can punish and avoid the same things(with a few exceptions). Making it easier for the devs to tweak something should it need to be changed. If we're being totally honest here classifications as a general concept in this game haven't really panned out well. So trying to stick to poor design based on poorly done classes doesn't seem ideal to me. Not saying they can't go back and redefine those or add new things to better define what is what. Just saying homoginization is an important thing to have to a point for any fighter.

You can look at Dragonball Fighterz and see how even when that's taken to an extreme you can still have clear distinct differences in character kits that make things interesting.

CandleInTheDark
06-22-2018, 07:27 PM
Assassins have dodge attacks/deflects which let them deal with certain unique situations. Like for instance any assassin baring pk and glad can delay their dodge attack to avoid conq's bash mix up. And deflect gives assassins the ability to ignore lawbringers follow up light after a shove. Not to mention standard guard heros have a thing called "guard switch recovery" which prevents them from doing certain actions after switching for a brief period of time.

Normalizing dodge recovery doesn't really remove assassins identity. And even if it did making side dodge recovery and back dash recovery the same across all boards means everyone can punish and avoid the same things(with a few exceptions). Making it easier for the devs to tweak something should it need to be changed. If we're being totally honest here classifications as a general concept in this game haven't really panned out well. So trying to stick to poor design based on poorly done classes doesn't seem ideal to me. Not saying they can't go back and redefine those or add new things to better define what is what. Just saying homoginization is an important thing to have to a point for any fighter.

You can look at Dragonball Fighterz and see how even when that's taken to an extreme you can still have clear distinct differences in character kits that make things interesting.

Oh certainly I don't want to be unnecessarily down on it and what I want is all classes to be viable, if this is what they need to do it then that's what is needed. I'm also very honest in that in terms of traditional fighters my experience runs from Amiga to ps2 with a few friends' consoles in between, For Honor brought me back to the genre, so I very much also accept some people know better than me.

BlowHard74728
06-22-2018, 07:29 PM
Well since pk's side dodge is 600 then you can in fact react to conqs shield bash. Its not just up to guessing

UbiInsulin
06-22-2018, 08:06 PM
Re: the Highlander's Offensive Form dodges:



Hey all because I got a number of questions on whether the Side Dodge normalization affects the Highlander's Offensive Form special dodges, I have talked to the Fight Team to confirm that the HL's OF dodges are unaffected by this change.


-per Eric on Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/8stwmr/warriors_den_recap_21st_june_e3_moments_patch/e13wfgm/).

Logan_Pelaez
06-23-2018, 12:05 PM
To all the experts...how about the Aramusha? He does not has a side dodge attack, but he was one of the few heroes with 500ms side dodge and with this change he has even fewer options in his gameplay.

I am no expert, but this is a nerf to an already underpowered character. I

What are your thoughts on the Aramusha with this change?

Vakris_One
06-23-2018, 12:27 PM
To all the experts...how about the Aramusha? He does not has a side dodge attack, but he was one of the few heroes with 500ms side dodge and with this change he has even fewer options in his gameplay.

I am no expert, but this is a nerf to an already underpowered character. I

What are your thoughts on the Aramusha with this change?
Yeah, it's definitely a nerf to him which he absolutely did not need. But it is healthier for the game as a whole. At least he is still the only hero who can get a heavy from a light parry as compensation - which essentially makes blade blockade never the go to option. Aramusha has lots of problems and I would say he is the second most gimped hero in the game right next to Valkyrie. He is going to need a full on rework at some point to fix him but with how slowly they do reworks he probably won't get one until after Marching Fire is released which is sad.

MuscleTech12018
06-23-2018, 07:02 PM
Re: the Highlander's Offensive Form dodges:



-per Eric on Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/8stwmr/warriors_den_recap_21st_june_e3_moments_patch/e13wfgm/).

Great ! another op move for "reworked" highlangerds ! :))