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XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 01:24 PM
Oleg, I see you posting in here.

I would like to see your response regarding the ability to hear so many sounds from inside the cockpit.


1. I hear firing from distances
2. I hear aircraft buzzing around from quite a distance - in particular I hear aircraft approaching from back 6 with no trouble



As in another post - There are many that would like to be limted to:

1. hearing own guns only
2. hearing own engine only
3. hearing hit sounds on own aircraft


I have not seen a response to that topic by you. I see alot of talk about FM, radiators, etc... but I, along with many others find this issue to be one of the biggest in the game.

This has been spoken about since il2.

Mods - no need to lock this thread, as the other is ignored.

S!
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XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 01:24 PM
Oleg, I see you posting in here.

I would like to see your response regarding the ability to hear so many sounds from inside the cockpit.


1. I hear firing from distances
2. I hear aircraft buzzing around from quite a distance - in particular I hear aircraft approaching from back 6 with no trouble



As in another post - There are many that would like to be limted to:

1. hearing own guns only
2. hearing own engine only
3. hearing hit sounds on own aircraft


I have not seen a response to that topic by you. I see alot of talk about FM, radiators, etc... but I, along with many others find this issue to be one of the biggest in the game.

This has been spoken about since il2.

Mods - no need to lock this thread, as the other is ignored.

S!
609IAP_Recon

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XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 01:38 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zuggp&tpage=3


As mentioned in that thread, not a significant change in 1.2b - granted, it's a beta, but is there going to be more work done to prevent what we are calling 'sonar sound' ?

S!
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XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 02:16 PM
First of all I don't promise big changes in sound in 1.2.
Just small. and a little bit more changes in separate released DLL after our sound programmer will be back from his vaction (he just married)

The I would like to point:

1. In reality you may hear sound of ground explosions and cannos from altitudes even at 6 km. The wave of air produce inside the aircraft the good visible by ears sound... More in fighter less in bomber.

2. Aircraft, such as fighter that fly close enough say for up to 100 m is possible to hear. Depends of the plane in which your fly yourself. I have several recordings of sound that was done on WWII replicas and real WWII aircraft flying together and the sound is even too strong from aircraft that flew on a distance of other. The recording was done on a binaural professional "head", that simulated the head of the human and in additional used headphones that to close microphones that get effect very close to real.


Second numbers.

1. No, we will not go for that.
2. No, we will not go for that.
3. It is in 1.2 easy recognizable.



I would also say,
that we found last time why some, but not all hear too much...
In different configuaations of PC it sounds by different way. In most cases - due to some problems in drivers and hardware or with incorrect tunings of EAX, used say for Chorus, etc.... Or on some configurations, after installation of some programs the tunings of EAX and on more simple cards changed and ther result that some hear wird strange sound.


Another one thing that do not understand some users, that we have the most complex 3D engine sound in the world, and tunes there are not easy things.
As well as users do not undertand about compression of sound on a PC, becasue PC sound can't be with the same dynmical range as the real sound.
If you or other users do not know what is dinamical range and how it need to be comprerssed for the PC, please read special literature.


The last thing. On some card the sound in FB can't be played as we wish and as it should. Simply becasue they are more simple cards or do not 100% support the features of SB Live - Audigy series. So they will not hear that hear the owners of listed cards. They will hear the worse sound comparing to listed cards.

We know currently just one possible bug in sound engine concerning of EAX implementation, but it can't be changed for a week or month probably.

The only fully prerecorded simple waves will sounds similar on different cards, and its not a case of complex syntezis of sound.


Recon_609IAP wrote:
- Oleg, I see you posting in here.
-
- I would like to see your response regarding the
- ability to hear so many sounds from inside the
- cockpit.
-
-
- 1. I hear firing from distances
- 2. I hear aircraft buzzing around from quite a
- distance - in particular I hear aircraft approaching
- from back 6 with no trouble
-
-
-
- As in another post - There are many that would like
- to be limted to:
-
- 1. hearing own guns only
- 2. hearing own engine only
- 3. hearing hit sounds on own aircraft
-
-
- I have not seen a response to that topic by you. I
- see alot of talk about FM, radiators, etc... but I,
- along with many others find this issue to be one of
- the biggest in the game.
-
- This has been spoken about since il2.
-
- Mods - no need to lock this thread, as the other is
- ignored.
-
- S!
- 609IAP_Recon
-
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- href="http://fogwar.luftwaffe.net/forums/index.php"
- target=_blank>http://fogwar.luftwaffe.net/forums/i
- ndex.php</a>
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- Visit 609IAP at http://takeoff.to/609IAP
-
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- src="http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jp
- g">
-
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- Dona nobis pacem
-
-
-



Oleg Maddox
1C:Maddox Games

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 02:59 PM
Oleg can you let us know whats the best sound card for FB, I understand that the synth sound system which works in tones maybe more complicated but it doesnt sound anything like real gunfire, engine startup, menthonal whistle.

I have heard fb sound on more then 20 computers networked from crappy integrated onboard sound, to sblive and sb audigy 2 and they all sound very similiar and everyone says the same thing that sound is the worst thing in fb.

The engine sounds of janes wwii fighters, and cfs2 sound so much more realistic, real dat recordings of all engine stages, dat recordings of cannon and smg fire, edited engine siezes and running rough.

The thing that I dont like is the anomolies where you hear gunfire miles away if your at 1000 or 10,000m you hear the engine of a plane nearby or one that has crashed 15 minutes ago. The super loud flak bursts which blew out my headphone speakers $250 sony wireless, and a cheap pair

Im hoping BOB uses a different sound engine that will let users add in thier own sounds if they choose

startup
idle
5 reving stages
war power
engine running rough
engine sieze
shutdown

gear dropped
gear manual crank
gear doors closed
Wheel Touchdown churp "paved surface"


along with all ammo types
and richochets, canopy glass breaking sound
pilot fatigue in high G
pilot wounded

AAA shell bursts
deep
mid
faint





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XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 03:37 PM
Oleg wrote:
- On some card the sound in FB can't be played as we wish and as it should. Simply becasue they are more simple cards or do not 100% support the features of SB Live - Audigy series. So they will not hear that hear the owners of listed cards. They will hear the worse sound comparing to listed cards.

I have to agree with that. I'm running FB now with a 5.1 surround EAX1 card (which is SB compatible), sounds fine and is not that expensive (yes i do hear the cannons from miles away but not as loud anymore).

I have tried to run it with the Korg Oasys PCI card (which is a high-quality studio/synth but without hardware acceleration and without EAX, i also tried the on-board AC97 on my mobo - both give very bad results.



lil_labbit

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Message Edited on 11/05/03‚ 04:06PM by lil_labbit

Message Edited on 11/05/0304:13PM by lil_labbit

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 04:18 PM
Thanks Recon_609IAP that keep ask this question that I wonder
and Thanks Oleg for reply S!


as I understand now there have two factors
1. range between 2 airplane ( 100 meters as oleg said )
2. sound card quality (echo sencitive sound)



as I have experience when I test LA5FN I can play surprise attact to LW friend easy , but when I back to 109 I have to build my speed faster then 500km/h
drive to him at low and behide when closer to 700 meter I reduce power to 0% wtih auto pitch and hope my positive closerspeed will take me enought to close to 150 meter befor open fire. ( oh man... like a silent hunter u-boat http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


now I clear one thing ... when read history of aircombat in WWII, 80% of kill
come form surprise attack, each victim did not hearing any sound of dead behind him because sound of engine from his friends formation group is lounder.



S!

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 06:25 PM
1.

Yesterday there was a big meeting with Czech pilots who served in RAF during BOB and after the official end I asked one of the pilots:

"When you fly in a Spitfire and there is another Spitfire close by your side or behind you...can you hear its engine?"

And he started smiling and turning his head. He said:

"You can not not hear anything apart from your engine. Maybe with your canopy slid back and engine throttled down you could, but never with engine in power during a flight."

Then I asked him about guns. He said, that you can not hear even your guns. He said that you can only feel them.

Photos of me talking to the RAF veteran here:

http://sweb.cz/CSL_Kocour/Fotky/CzechsInRAF/


2.

I also had a 15min flight in a 300HP Extra300 aerobatic special two weeks ago...its not only engine, you have intercom headphones that further damp the sound...during one agressive manoeuver my headphones slipped away and the sound level jumped up by 50%!!!..., and its not only the engine roar, its vibrations and the slipstreem hiss which is quite loud even at the speeds about 300km/h at which we sometimes flew...

Photos of me flying the Extra300 here:

http://sweb.cz/CSL_Kocour/Fotky/Extra/

(btw. those bloodshot eyes are mine after some 8+ and 6- manoeuvers...those who duno what gees do to you, be glad you don‚¬īt /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif gees hurt alot! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


3.

I think that most problems with sonar come from a popular/developer‚¬īs belief that pilots could hear other plane‚¬īs engines from 100m...but this is not true...after my yesterday‚¬īs debate with the gentleman, I am 103% sure about it...the plane would have to be something like 3m away with the exhaust pipes poiting to your cockpit so that you really could hear anything else than your own engine...


So now the sound is modelled in such a way that on most sound cards enemy engine should be heard from 100m distance as developers believe is realistic...but it is not and moreover on some cards the engine is heard from 1000m and more...

I would say the more modern card the better the user hears plus he can use headphones and then its even better...so basically a SB Audigy user armed with headphones can hear an enemy aproaching him from behind while it is still some 1500-2000m this equals to a very well equipped "sonar operator" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

So...if the sound model is done in such a way that on most cards the enemy plane can be heard at 100m distance and on many cards this distance is more like 1000-1500m...if this modelled distance is decreased to 1m, even the best equipped "sonar operators" would hear planes at 100m which is much better and the rest at 1m which is realistic...

The first task is to make developers believe that in reality you can not hear enemy engine from 100m...once they start believing, that the distance from which you can hear enemy engine is much smaller (1m), if any, we are starting to move somewhere...because 100m for all is still too much and unrealistic and 1500m for many is impossible...it should be 1m for average and 10m for the best equipped "sonar operators"...


Letu Zdar

CSL_Kocour





Message Edited on 11/05/0305:31PM by CSL_Kocour

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 07:19 PM
First off - Congratulations to the newly wed sound developer


Oleg,

You comment has indeed brought up the issue at hand by your comment of:

"such as fighter that fly close enough say for up to 100 m is possible to hear"

Where did you get this number?

I have read numerous accounts (I can repost one for example by Bud Anderson in his p51), that say exactly the same as CSL_Kocour's post above.

The only sound Bud Anderson said he could hear was flak that exploded too close, and his comment to that was that if it was that close you were in some serious trouble.


Again, I'd like some source of information on where you get your 100 meters, I support Kocour's 3rd item above. I have done testing with other pilots online to determine these distances. You can hear another aircraft even with the throttle off - matter of fact, you can hear OVER 300m with just prop pitch on and no throttle.

I do not know the ins and outs of the sound development areas, but I do not wish this important item be merely dismissed by blaming the sound card.


I appreciate your feedback on this Oleg.


S!
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XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 09:02 PM
Oleg_Maddox wrote:
- 1. In reality you may hear sound of ground
- explosions and cannos from altitudes even at 6 km.
- The wave of air produce inside the aircraft the good
- visible by ears sound... More in fighter less in
- bomber.


have you experienced this yourself ? do you have accounts claiming this ?


- 2. Aircraft, such as fighter that fly close enough
- say for up to 100 m is possible to hear. Depends of
- the plane in which your fly yourself. I have several
- recordings of sound that was done on WWII replicas
- and real WWII aircraft flying together and the sound
- is even too strong from aircraft that flew on a
- distance of other.

i've done this myself,not with warbirds but in a 250hp flying close to a 500hp aircraft,heard nothing...despite twice the HP in the other plane,and we were closer than 100m. i'm very curious to hear one of those recordings,especially if you know FOR SURE that they are genuine,not edited after the recording.


- 1. No, we will not go for that.
- 2. No, we will not go for that.

it's logical when reading what you wrote at the top,but as many of your supporters would appreciate not to hear anything out of cockpit,it would be nice to let them have it as an option,better as a difficulty setting (for online purpose) : EXTERNAL SOUNDS on/off

- Oleg Maddox
- 1C:Maddox Games


thanks for discussing again the topic,oleg,even if you don't agree on the request it's a nice start to write about it.hoping to hear some of your records,truly fan of yours,

PB0_Roll

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 09:29 PM
Thanks CSL_Kocour for your good information.


I think two factor is distance between pilot and engine , and volume of real engine sound.

I not sure humen in big plane like bomber and passanger plane will hearing external sound batter then fighter pilot that sit very close to engine room , this point make
Oleg and team insist not change external sound effect.


and I forgot one thing when I recall back to history recored for some victim that fly alone and was kill with surprise attact from behide.He did not hearing incoming sound of enemy ?
this point make me to believe at the same way of CSL_Kocour's post


I don't have real experience about this so any friend have any information relate this topic
pls share to Recon_609IAP

Recon_609IAP , if Oleg did not reply in time may be he has alot of work to do , you need email him to il2beta@1c.ru


external sound effect is one major thing to make game more enjoyment this point is not easy
to change... depend on Oleg and team realy turn this game to simulation



and CSL_Kocour, I hope your eye get batter now. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



sorry for my bad english.
S!

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 10:10 PM
karost wrote:

- and I forgot one thing when I recall back to history
- recored for some victim that fly alone and was kill
- with surprise attact from behide.He did not hearing
- incoming sound of enemy ?
- this point make me to believe at the same way of
- CSL_Kocour's post


Of course they did not hear the approaching enemy...that is why they were shot down and its not SOME but MOST (almost 80%) of them never knew what shot them down...if you want a written proof you don‚¬īt have to go any further than to your box of IL2/FB and there it is written in the manual /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


-
-
- and CSL_Kocour, I hope your eye get batter now. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-

Yes the eyes are almost back to normal now, more than 14 days after the flying /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



I would also like to thank Oleg for his patience and devotion with which he agrees to discuss various aspects and issues in his simulator. It is truly admirable.

But I also think that when somebody shows him some data, trying to explain that there is something wrong, Oleg would save himself lots of writing and time and pain of arguing if he simply posted his data that would clearly show that all is fine.

In this case many people contributed to show that there should be no or almost no external sounds when flying a real WWII warbird.

To say otherwise is not enough I am afraid. Proofs were posted and counter-proofs should be posted now to settle the matter.

We posted facts and not only words, now I think we deserve to see facts and not only words.

In this case it would be an account of a WWII pilot stating that he could hear an engine of an enemy trying to sneak upon him from six and that saved his life. Or some recorded video showing that an engine of a warbird flying a wing to another warbird can be heard.

Thank you

CSL_Kocour

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 10:34 PM
There are some issues with soung in FB.



First of all, the most recent one. That extremely loud ship flak / artillery boom when "entering" a specific range to the gun. It's 5-10km maybe, can't see the objects at those range (which is bad for ships BTW.). Yeah that's really *L O U D*.

Then another one is relative volume. When firing guns for example, the engine sound drops. Try a P-47 or FW A-9R2.

Also quite an issue, existing since the very first Il-2 version... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif : "Ghost sound", or "wound warps". Here's just an example situation for understanding it better. A dogfight mission online. You sit in your plane on the base. Now someone comes and tries to vulch you. He can't because the flak kills him just before he opens up fire. He crashes onto the conctrete 20m next to you. Then you check [S] routinely to see his stats. Now you see him respawning, as he gets a plane in his line in the stats again. Now you suddenly hear an engine revving up. But you look around, nothing there. You just wonder what it is. And yes, the sound exactly comes from where the other guy just crashed. You switch though the planes via CTRL F2, and exactly the guy who tried to vulch you, is the one you hear 20m next to you on your base, although just took off at his base 40km away. Now that's it. Something in FB "warps" his engine and gunnery sounds to where he crashed the last time. That's the bug in one sentence.

And then there's the sonar issue. You tried to eliminate this in FB by deleting those distance attenuation and realistic occlusions settings in the ingame sound setup. Nevertheless they still can be set in the conf.ini. Not that big problem. Even in Il-2 the distance attenuation was set to 7 everytime you started FB. You had to turn it up everytime to get the ultra sonar sound, so you were able to hear planes at 3km. But the problem now is, at "dis att" 7, you can still hear them at 300-800m, maybe even depending on soundcard. One advise: Set the default "dis att" to 1 instead of 7. Let FB set it to 1 everytime it's started. Problem solved then I'd say.
You could even program it a tad more complex. Just like this:
If engine runs, you can't hear things far away ("dis att" 1)
If you're in externals or engine is off, you can hear things far away very good ("dis att 14" - let's turn it up to the edge /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ).
So it just should check 2 things: Engine on/off and Cockpit/External view. Then it chooses the distance attenuation. This would get it more real.

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 12:36 AM
I read one a reply from Oleg saying that internal and external sound is linked, therefore tweaking one will screw up the other one

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XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 12:41 AM
'external'

For those that fly outside the plane you mean?


I mean hearing 'external sounds' from within the cockpit, you know, from where you are suspose to fly from http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



S!
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XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 03:45 AM
Oleg please increase the stall warning wind sound.

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 03:56 AM
Great read and pics, and the broken blood vessels in the eyes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif of Have talked to alot of us wwii pilots as well some say you cant hear especially with full headgear on canopt closed and running war power, other b17 gunners i talked to say you heard the 190s and 109s they were so lound ammoungst all the firing with headgear sound and getting calls but they are also by an open window.

Being of czech descent I would have loved to shake his hand thanks for one of the best posts I have seen in weeks here


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XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 04:12 AM
Great post Recon. I agree totally. I was flying an I-16 today and when a messerschimitt came on my six, I could easily hear him. However, when a yak snuk up on me, could NOT hear him! Would have been toast. I try to always look around when playing online. 90 percent of the time I get killed by guys I don't see, but I gotta admit, that the sound tipped me off from a bounce and saved my bacon more than once. Also, many a bounce was spoiled cause the other guy heard me.

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XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 09:58 AM
I am an ex-Army helicopter pilot, and have spent many hours flying in fairly tight formation with several other Hueys, and never could hear any of them. Presently, I am flying the S-64 Skycrane, which is extremely loud, and have, on several occasions flown in formation with another of our Cranes. I've never heard anything from the other ship. I've been fortunate enough to have gotten a ride in the back seat of a P-51D as well as an SNJ, and I can't possibly imagine ever hearing anything outside those airplanes other than maybe a flack burst going off right next to me.

Don't get me wrong here, I love this flight sim, and think it's absolutely the best sim to ever come to the PC. I just wish that Oleg would turn off the external sounds. Oleg is a pilot himself, and knows better. I don't think this was his idea, but for some reason he feels compelled to defend it.

Ask a formula one driver if he can hear the engine of a car that's right behind him, let alone a whole football field away!

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 02:46 PM
I second that Razor. Here is a modern example. I just recently flew in formation with another prop driven aircraft. The aircraft was probably 10 feet from me at a given time. No sound whatsoever came from the other aircraft. I know that this isn't a WW2 aircraft but if the ability to hear other aircraft outside your cockpit was accurate I would have definitely been able to hear it and I couldn't, not one bit.

http://images.snapfish.com/338%3B355923232%7Ffp46%3Dot%3E232%3A%3D6%3B%3A%3D4 37%3DXROQDF%3E232346763%3A%3A54ot1lsi

Also, I know that someone has a video clip of a P-51 in formation and you are unable to hear it as well. Please post it.

I SALUTE this sim and the Oleg Team for making it. It is truly and incredible piece of work, I don't deny that. I just wish some of the tweaks could be worked out to increase its realism effect to the maximum here.



Message Edited on 11/06/0302:32PM by IV_JG51_Swine

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 03:06 PM
ok let's reading some writting about aircombat in WWII that apply surprise attack tactic

Lawrence Thompson in P-51D meets 109G-14

January 1945 over Romania...

.... I'm still following this Me109. I just got my first confirmed kill of my tour, and now I'm really hot. I believe that I am the hottest pilot in the USAAF! And now I'm thinking to myself: am I going to shoot this Me109 down too?! He rolls and we turn, and turn; somehow, I cannot catch up with him in the Lufberry circle, we just keep circling. About the third 360 degree turn he and I must have spotted two Mustangs flying below us, about 2,000 feet below, and he dives for the two P-51s.

Now I'm about 150 yards from him, and I get my gunsight on his tail, but I cannot shoot, because if I shoot wide, or my bullets pass through him, I might shoot down one or both P-51s, so I get a front seat, watching, fearful that this guy will shoot down a P-51 we're approaching at about 390 mph. There's so much interference on the R/T I cannot warn the two Mustangs, I fire one very long burst of about seven or eight seconds purposely wide, so it misses the Mustangs, and the Me109 pilot can see the tracers. None of the Mustang pilots see the tracers either! I was half hoping expecting that they'd see my tracers and turn out of the way of the diving Me109. But no such luck. I quit firing. The Me109 still dives, and as he approaches the two P-51s he holds his fire, and as the gap closes, two hundred yards, one hundred yards, fifty yards the Hun does not fire a shot. No tracers, nothing! At less than ten yards, it looks like he's going to ram the lead P-51 and the Hun fires one single shot from his 20mm cannon! And Bang! Engine parts, white smoke, glycol, whatnot from the lead P-51 is everywhere, and that unfortunate Mustang begins a gentle roll to the right


let's analysis this writting about external sound effect
---------------------------------------------------------

109 spotted two Mustangs below about 2000 feet then he driver for two P-51s and Lawrence follow 109 close to 150 yards with drive speed at 390 mph.

Lawrence fire one very long burst of about seven or eight seconds for warning two p-51
( two p-51 pilots did not hearing Lawrence's gun fire)

109 come closer to two p-51 at two hundred yards, one hundred yards, fifty yards...
( two p-51 pilots did not hearing the engine sound of that 109 come closer with speed at 390 mph
event at fifty yards ,engine sound from 109 and p-51 not the same sound )

at 10 yards 109 pilot fires one single shot from his 20mm cannon!
( from fifty yards to ten yards two p-51 pilots did not hearing engine sound form 109
if they heard the external sournd of 109 one of two p-51's pilot would not be POW )


you can visit and read full story hear
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-ErichHartmann.html#p51vshartmann


as I'm not a real pilot , I never sit at cockpit of airplane with single 1000HP engine before

but thanks IV_JG51_Razor and VI_JG51_Swine for your post which share your experience about external sound knowledge
for us

and it would be good if more any friend here who have real-experience relate to this topic or
you can access to the real WWII pilot ask him about this topic and share your information here

all of information here will be usefull for Oleg M. and team

S!

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 06:05 PM
One of my friends also mentioned night fighters yesterday. These guys in Bf110s and other machines were slowly sneaking behind bombers and the gunners did not hear them. The fighters commenced firing from real close and if the gunners did not see them, they never knew they were there...

The 100m range must be some missunderstanding.

It should be changed to 1m in my opinion.

Thank you

CSL_Kocour

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 06:23 PM
S!

Oleg_Maddox wrote:
- The recording was done on a binaural professional "head", that simulated the head of the human and in additional used headphones that to close microphones that get effect very close to real.

Well there you have it. Who are you gonna believe, Oleg's simulated electronic head, or your own 2 ears?? Your ears are wrong. Be sure.

Oleg, thanks for finally answering this question. Now I know that I'll just have to live with sonar sound and enjoy the game as it is.

Thanks again Oleg for listening and responding.

S!

SKULLS_LZ

Solutions For A Small Bandit