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bannex19
06-19-2018, 10:29 PM
After careful deliberation I decided to propose the following changes. Please don't flip out but constructive criticism is welcome.

Normalize light attack speed 500 or 400ms across the board no more light spam for one hero but not the other.

Normalize guard change speed including reflex guard for assassins.

Normalize dodge recovery and speed for all heroes.

Normalize all health pools, give heavy more defense and assa more damage, hybrid/vanguard can vary based on focus.

Light damage and heavy damage based on direction, finishes not by hero.

Make unblockables do less damage and stagger less of guard is on that side.

These changes would at least make balance less of an issue.

Knight_Raime
06-20-2018, 12:27 AM
~Everyboady sans I think 3 heros has 500ms lights in some capacity. If we lived in a perfect world the devs would be doing varied ms increments. But if they don't do this then all neutral lights imo should be 500ms. 400ms should be added in based on the kit itself though.

~Pretty sure they normalized guard change speed waaaay long ago. Animation wise they don't always keep up with the switching. But the game mechanically recognizes it at the correct speed.

~Back dashes were normalized already. side dodges will be soon as well. so why not on forward as well.

~Disagree. I think everyone should get more health and stamina. But I don't think the values need to be the exact same for everyone.

~Nah. I can see this on some things. Like storm rush or shaman's wild cat's rage. And I can see this for some other attacks. But I don't know how I feel about applying that to everything.

~Disagree.

bannex19
06-20-2018, 06:48 PM
I understand there are still issues with assassin guard. I think most core mechanics need to be normalized simply because it would help make the game structurally balanced. There is no reason to give certain heroes faster lights or harder heavies.

The problem with unblockables is that it honestly feels crappy to me to be constantly put into a 'predict what I'm going to do situation' especially with the kensei and zerk. I think there is some strategy that could be gained from eating a reduced damage unblockable or going for the parry.

I think light spam feels ultimately worse than turtle meta. I also think the steep learning curve is approaching ridiculous levels the more varied and complicated the systems get.

At the very least, normalizing health, speed, recovery and stam usage makes the core mechanics more predictable and balanced feeling. Minimizing the amount of 'loss of control' feeling reduces the helplessness of getting worked over by a mistake.

Good players will still beat bad ones but reducing the strength of hero gimmicks gives a much better illusion of balance.

Knight_Raime
06-20-2018, 07:12 PM
I understand there are still issues with assassin guard. I think most core mechanics need to be normalized simply because it would help make the game structurally balanced. There is no reason to give certain heroes faster lights or harder heavies.

The problem with unblockables is that it honestly feels crappy to me to be constantly put into a 'predict what I'm going to do situation' especially with the kensei and zerk. I think there is some strategy that could be gained from eating a reduced damage unblockable or going for the parry.

I think light spam feels ultimately worse than turtle meta. I also think the steep learning curve is approaching ridiculous levels the more varied and complicated the systems get.

At the very least, normalizing health, speed, recovery and stam usage makes the core mechanics more predictable and balanced feeling. Minimizing the amount of 'loss of control' feeling reduces the helplessness of getting worked over by a mistake.

Good players will still beat bad ones but reducing the strength of hero gimmicks gives a much better illusion of balance.

Some normalization is needed. Like being making it so everyone can punish the same move. But not having everyone punish the same way. Just like everyone should have an equal chance to avoid something. Making everyone have the same speed attacks makes parrying easier to do than it already is. It would not make things more balanced.

Yeah. People were spoiled with the original for honor. Fighters have a mix of things you deal with on reaction and things you have to deal with on prediction. If you don't enjoy prediction play then you probably shouldn't be playing a fighter. If you reduce the impact of an unblockable than the risk of being wrong is no longer a risk. And then people just spam attacks to trade.

"light spam" is not a viable tactic against decent players. Light spam is when you buffer attacks. Buffered attacks are slower than they should be because buffering is bugged. Light spam is a player made issue and not an actual balanced one. Until we get to the point where everyone has easy access 400ms lights. Then we'd have a problem. And even then it would depend on how the person gets access to said 400ms lights.

Again that's not actually balancing anything. That's just making the adjustment proccess and further changes easier to do since they only need to have to worry about one value. As i've already explained one value creates issues. Mistakes are meant to feel punishing. If they're not then there isn't really a push or drive to improve your play. There are some punishes that are too much. But those specific ones should be addressed. Not addressing them as a whole.

It honestly sounds like you were a fan of the original for honor. Where everything was reaction based and things were far simpler. If that's what you're into then more power to you. But the devs are moving away from that and have been for awhile. In order to foster a more healthy and competitive experience. Wether or not that's the correct path for this game isn't really relevant for discussion. Now discussion on how to improve the competitive experience is. I'll tell you that you're on the right track on homogenizing as a concept. Some areas of this game that's needed. But not to the extent that you're pushing for.

bannex19
06-20-2018, 08:44 PM
I'm old dude and I work in an incredibly complicated field. Simpler is usually better as far as my entertainment is concerned from my perspective.

That said I can appreciate them constantly introducing new mechanics as long as the core structures are baselined.

I agree with you on a lot of your points I'm just trying to make the game feel less unfair without actually changing how characters feel.

HKPirate
06-20-2018, 10:08 PM
They do need to fix oorochi, his speeds are so fast and even if you block it he can spam different directions with zero penalty. Even if you hard party him, he can recover and side swipe before a lot of character can connect with him. Nobushi is another one that could take a hit, nobushi could use an initial damage nerf or reduce the damage of its bleeds.

HazelrahFirefly
06-20-2018, 10:37 PM
They do need to fix oorochi, his speeds are so fast and even if you block it he can spam different directions with zero penalty. Even if you hard party him, he can recover and side swipe before a lot of character can connect with him. Nobushi is another one that could take a hit, nobushi could use an initial damage nerf or reduce the damage of its bleeds.

Wha? Nobushi needs a buff.

Knight_Raime
06-20-2018, 10:39 PM
I'm old dude and I work in an incredibly complicated field. Simpler is usually better as far as my entertainment is concerned from my perspective.

That said I can appreciate them constantly introducing new mechanics as long as the core structures are baselined.

I agree with you on a lot of your points I'm just trying to make the game feel less unfair without actually changing how characters feel.

Well trust me when I say normalizing some of what you suggested would drastically change how characters feel. For one if everyone has the same health value you'd have people asking what's the difference between a heavy and an assassin. And you'd also have arguments about why X hero doesn't feel good to have this kind of health and why Y hero feels more OP now because of his new health.


They do need to fix oorochi, his speeds are so fast and even if you block it he can spam different directions with zero penalty. Even if you hard party him, he can recover and side swipe before a lot of character can connect with him. Nobushi is another one that could take a hit, nobushi could use an initial damage nerf or reduce the damage of its bleeds.

tbh it feels like you're misusing the word spam. His recovery is not fast enough to recover and hit someone trying to punish him off of a parry. When they changed parry rewards that involved normalizing peoples stun time after a parry. That's the same on every hero now. Bushi's lights are not particularly strong. and her bleed doesn't do much damage. her bleed enables her attacks to do more damage while the opponent is bleeding. this is a unique passive she has that's in the move list. Perhaps you should try practicing against both heros in the training mode before you start advocating for nerfs.

Arekonator
06-20-2018, 10:40 PM
They do need to fix oorochi, his speeds are so fast and even if you block it he can spam different directions with zero penalty. Even if you hard party him, he can recover and side swipe before a lot of character can connect with him. Nobushi is another one that could take a hit, nobushi could use an initial damage nerf or reduce the damage of its bleeds.

Parry stagger is normalized, after parry, orochi is as vulnerable as any other character. Down from that is only matter of knowing your own character and what punishes you can get.