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View Full Version : Where did all this "highlander" nerf come from?



RenegadeTX2000
06-19-2018, 06:51 AM
Out of no where too, I'm enjoying smash ultimate, catching up on data and preparing to travel for that game. I come back here and I see Nerf highlander here and there. What did this man do all of a sudden to garnish this? where was all this talk before hand? lol

Kahuf1
06-19-2018, 07:53 AM
Simply came from players, who first of theirs lives see some good highlander and dont know how against hi.

Cause guess what... after buff he is playable or even i can tell good.
And its booring to cry against shamans feint jumps and zerks feints with HA.

Charmzzz
06-19-2018, 08:05 AM
Out of no where too, I'm enjoying smash ultimate, catching up on data and preparing to travel for that game. I come back here and I see Nerf highlander here and there. What did this man do all of a sudden to garnish this? where was all this talk before hand? lol

Thing is that Highlander Kick / Caber Toss mixup is one of the hardest to dodge moves in the game. It is even better than Warden Shoulderbash was before it got nerfed. Basically Highlander is a better Version of Warden due to his Hyperarmor, heavy hitting Attacks, Crushing Counterstrikes on every direction and his offensive stance tools.

Kahuf1
06-19-2018, 08:24 AM
Thing is that Highlander Kick / Caber Toss mixup is one of the hardest to dodge moves in the game. It is even better than Warden Shoulderbash was before it got nerfed. Basically Highlander is a better Version of Warden due to his Hyperarmor, heavy hitting Attacks, Crushing Counterstrikes on every direction and his offensive stance tools.

Highlander have hard to dodge move, agree, but hald of all heroes have dash attack to delete it. And rest of them have 3 posibilities to avoid or even punish. Late dodge, backward light and roll.

On opposite side have NO DEFENCE IN OFF STANCE, NO CGB, have rly slow lights which are easy to parry cause animation and pretty useless zone.

Charmzzz
06-19-2018, 08:29 AM
On opposite side have NO DEFENCE IN OFF STANCE, NO CGB, have rly slow lights which are easy to parry cause animation and pretty useless zone.

Nope. Highlander has 400ms Dodge Recovery in Off-Stance which is THE BEST recovery in the game. #noDefence...
He does not need CGB because no one will EVER get close enough to GB him when he is in Off-Stance. If that happens the Highlander player did something wrong.

Slow Lights? Really? 500ms Top and 400ms Side Lights in Off-Stance with unblockable state, yeah, super easy to parry. lol...

Zone got buffed to kill more Minions recently. Not an argument imo. Highlander will be Top 5 in Duel in S6 imo.

coldguy111
06-19-2018, 08:47 AM
I dare say that highlander exremely strong in that once he goes into offensive stance some characters simply can't get him out of it. Let's go through this scenario say law bringer sees a highlander go into offensive stance. Lawbringer tries to get close and either forced to deal with kick grab 50/50 or 400ms lights or unblockable feint into caber toss, Yeah not a fun match up. The inability to guard in offensive stance is completely offset by the 400ms dodge recovery. Which is itself is another form of great defense. Before the buff highlander could still do these things but was balanced by his lower damage higher stamina costs and the increased difficulty of trying to get into offensive form. Also he also has one of the strongest option selects in the game.
High damage output mixed with unparalleled mobility is reason people want a Nerf.

DrinkinMyStella
06-19-2018, 08:53 AM
thank god I don't run into too many in the game, even when I think I dodged at the right time I still get caught by the grab.

Siegfried-Z
06-19-2018, 09:04 AM
While i agree his kind of Guaranteed 50/50 is hard to deal with.. this is his strongest moove.

Overall i just think he is fine like he is and Ubi goal is to put all char arround this level or arround.

DrinkinMyStella
06-19-2018, 09:11 AM
its more in 4v4 in gank and your getting hit out of view with unblockable after unblockable.

Charmzzz
06-19-2018, 10:05 AM
its more in 4v4 in gank and your getting hit out of view with unblockable after unblockable.

This. Highlander shines in 4v4: Get grabbed? Screw you, you are on the floor and everyone gets a free heavy. You try to turtle up vs 2-3? No chance with a Highlander, spam unblockables all day @400ms so hit stagger will kill you 100%. Added to this he has very wide arc Attacks for AOE, at least they are blockable...

DrinkinMyStella
06-19-2018, 10:24 AM
This. Highlander shines in 4v4: Get grabbed? Screw you, you are on the floor and everyone gets a free heavy. You try to turtle up vs 2-3? No chance with a Highlander, spam unblockables all day @400ms so hit stagger will kill you 100%. Added to this he has very wide arc Attacks for AOE, at least they are blockable...

when I use HL I don't even have to think I just hold Heavy and release and just repeat obviously that won't work for every situation but 9/10 times you don't even have to do anything fancy. I think that they should have added a reflex on the offenceive stance so after 2 seconds in offence you have to reapply the offensive stance before it times out, that could break him but then it could balance him. who knows.

SpaceJim12
06-19-2018, 11:24 AM
Add to all post above a second feat, that will boost your damange in chains and you will geat ultimate kill machine in 4v4.

Thorstein31
06-19-2018, 12:53 PM
Hope the devs donít pay attention to all that cry out for nerf, this sort of thing has trashed the Good old Warlord and other heroes.
if you can't dodge the fomorian kick feint to caber toss just roll Back and reset the fight.

SpaceJim12
06-19-2018, 01:07 PM
Hope the devs don’t pay attention to all that cry out for nerf, this sort of thing has trashed the Good old Warlord and other heroes.
if you can't dodge the fomorian kick feint to caber toss just roll Back and reset the fight.

I think you misunderstand us. Nobody here "cry out for nerf". We just answer the question in thread's header.

Charmzzz
06-19-2018, 01:08 PM
Hope the devs don’t pay attention to all that cry out for nerf, this sort of thing has trashed the Good old Warlord and other heroes.
if you can't dodge the fomorian kick feint to caber toss just roll Back and reset the fight.

Very good balance there... They nerfed the old Warden Bash exactly because of the same "counter" you are assuming. ;)

I know it is possible to dodge kick / caber toss on reaction, I did it plenty of times. Still, in 4v4, it is too strong imo. When Impale and hopefully Stampede are looked at, I hope they also look at this combo and ALL other cutscene like moves (Sickle Rain, Centurion cutscene, Demon Embrace). Crowd Control is all good and fine as long as it does not take away the Players control for 5 seconds without interrupting when another guy is spamming heavies on you...

The_B0G_
06-19-2018, 02:38 PM
Kick/toss mixup is good, but it was useless before, the only reason it can argued as better than warden shoulder bash is the fact he gets so much damage if he gets you in it. Shoulder bash is much easier to get caught in and can be used a lot faster and frequently.

I have a rep 18 HL and I don't spam toss/kick mixups all match because all you need is someone to apply pressure and throw out lots of fast attacks and you can't use it. Kick/toss mixup is the only way a HL can deal with turtles, if you nerf that, he'll go right back to what he was pre-buff.

I can agree he could lose a bit of damage on heavies, but I think his toss mixup has to stay where it is for him to be viable, if that goes, everyone will just turtle against him again and he'll be useless.

Charmzzz
06-19-2018, 02:54 PM
Kick/toss mixup is good, but it was useless before, the only reason it can argued as better than warden shoulder bash is the fact he gets so much damage if he gets you in it. Shoulder bash is much easier to get caught in and can be used a lot faster and frequently.

I have a rep 18 HL and I don't spam toss/kick mixups all match because all you need is someone to apply pressure and throw out lots of fast attacks and you can't use it. Kick/toss mixup is the only way a HL can deal with turtles, if you nerf that, he'll go right back to what he was pre-buff.

I can agree he could lose a bit of damage on heavies, but I think his toss mixup has to stay where it is for him to be viable, if that goes, everyone will just turtle against him again and he'll be useless.

Turtle against 400ms unblockable Lights? How you do that? O.o

DrinkinMyStella
06-19-2018, 02:59 PM
Turtle against 400ms unblockable Lights? How you do that? O.o

they are not unblockable are they? they just turn orange because the offence stance.

The_B0G_
06-19-2018, 02:59 PM
Turtle against 400ms unblockable Lights? How you do that? O.o

OS lights I'm guessing you mean? DS lights get parried all the time. Neutral OS lights cost a lot of stamina and do very little damage.

SpaceJim12
06-19-2018, 03:10 PM
Kick/toss mixup is good, but it was useless before, the only reason it can argued as better than warden shoulder bash is the fact he gets so much damage if he gets you in it. Shoulder bash is much easier to get caught in and can be used a lot faster and frequently.

Ha! If I try to count players, who dodged my SB on Warden...well, I could spend daaaays on it.

The_B0G_
06-19-2018, 03:16 PM
Ha! If I try to count players, who dodged my SB on Warden...well, I could spend daaaays on it.

Ummm, soft feint gb grabs people who dodge out of SB... unless you mean dodge attacks, if so then they both face the same issue with those.

DrinkinMyStella
06-19-2018, 04:04 PM
Highlander is no where near top pick for 4v4, I rarely see one these days.

SpaceJim12
06-19-2018, 04:16 PM
Ummm, soft feint gb grabs people who dodge out of SB... unless you mean dodge attacks, if so then they both face the same issue with those.

Well, if compared soft feint to GB as grad for HL...
I meant dodge from original SB. All this bashs, kicks etc moves never lands without some guaranteed prepares. Everyone dodge it.

The_B0G_
06-19-2018, 04:28 PM
Well, if compared soft feint to GB as grad for HL...
I meant dodge from original SB. All this bashs, kicks etc moves never lands without some guaranteed prepares. Everyone dodge it.

SB can be used as a dodge attack for starters and can be used quickly, highlander needs to get into OS before he can even access the kick. People dodge single kicks from highlander nearly every time as well, so saying people dodge shoulder charge every time doesn't make it any weaker than the kick/toss combo.

I would way rather fight a good HL than a good warden.

Arekonator
06-19-2018, 04:56 PM
Turtle against 400ms unblockable Lights? How you do that? O.o

They are not unblockable, tho.
They are just "enhanced" like shugo lights and dont get interupted on block.

Vakris_One
06-19-2018, 05:10 PM
Turtle against 400ms unblockable Lights? How you do that? O.o
They're not unblockable. They can be blocked they just don't get interrupted on block. And to compensate for their speed they only do 10 damage.

Knight_Raime
06-19-2018, 06:14 PM
To be fair people were not happy with him getting 40 damage right when his "rework" dropped. But those people were basically silenced because "Highlander was not a threat and this is what he needs to be viable!" After the dust settled people started conversing about his kick/toss combo and how he can easily get 40 damage due to how easy it is to dodge and follow up with a kick.

The only reason it's being talked about more now is because in the most recent dev blog they mentioned that they were looking at his 400ms dodges in OF. So discussion about the guy in general has resurfaced. imo 40 damage is waaaay too much for how easy it is to get. But i've already written my suggestions on how to further change highlander.

The_B0G_
06-19-2018, 06:21 PM
To be fair people were not happy with him getting 40 damage right when his "rework" dropped. But those people were basically silenced because "Highlander was not a threat and this is what he needs to be viable!" After the dust settled people started conversing about his kick/toss combo and how he can easily get 40 damage due to how easy it is to dodge and follow up with a kick.

The only reason it's being talked about more now is because in the most recent dev blog they mentioned that they were looking at his 400ms dodges in OF. So discussion about the guy in general has resurfaced. imo 40 damage is waaaay too much for how easy it is to get. But i've already written my suggestions on how to further change highlander.

Agreed, like I said, I'm all for a small damage nerf to the unblockable heavies but his kick/toss combo needs to stay IMO.

Knight_Raime
06-19-2018, 06:30 PM
Agreed, like I said, I'm all for a small damage nerf to the unblockable heavies but his kick/toss combo needs to stay IMO.

Yeah the viability of the mix up should stay. I think the damage should be adjusted based on how he gets balors might. But i'm not sure if they can do that mechanically.
What I mean is off of a kick it's 30 damage. off of a toss it''s 35. and off of a parry/raw balors might is 40.

Kahuf1
06-19-2018, 06:42 PM
Yeah the viability of the mix up should stay. I think the damage should be adjusted based on how he gets balors might. But i'm not sure if they can do that mechanically.
What I mean is off of a kick it's 30 damage. off of a toss it''s 35. and off of a parry/raw balors might is 40.

Damage based on how he ger Balors Might? Ok... he have to be off stance, he have to perform kick or grab or kick feint grab and then have 40 damage.

Gues who have the same damage on simple heavy? Warden, Raider, Kensei and Shugoki. For simple perform heavy!

I know u talking about guaranteed damage after kick / grab, but he have to do 2 things before perform damage!

Knight_Raime
06-19-2018, 08:01 PM
Damage based on how he ger Balors Might? Ok... he have to be off stance, he have to perform kick or grab or kick feint grab and then have 40 damage.

Gues who have the same damage on simple heavy? Warden, Raider, Kensei and Shugoki. For simple perform heavy!

I know u talking about guaranteed damage after kick / grab, but he have to do 2 things before perform damage!

Getting into offensive form is not particularly difficult. and him not having certain defenses in offensive form is also not a big hamper. You can easily cancel out of the form and parry. Any good highlander does this. on top of that he's able to dodge pretty much anything pretty easily due to his spammable 400ms dodges. Which means he's going to get free damage on you. Even if that doesn't happen and you attempt to GB him instead he can just let balors might fly since it's only a heavy and at worst he's hit with a light.

Also your examples don't really compare. The damage is not the whole issue. It's how often he can easily obtain it. It's not like I want this and his dodge to be nerfed and that's it. I made buff suggestions for his defensive form in another thread.

Kahuf1
06-19-2018, 08:25 PM
I dont know why everyone now have problem with him now.

There is lot of 400ms lights or even feint lights, lot of feints like shamans jump attack / bite, lot of unpanishable shieldbashes and u guys crying about highlanders 51% win rate?
Even when there is confirmed some next rework which posibly move some under50% up so Highlander probably fall down again...

Thats what my brain cannot accept.Why did u dont make like 5 threads by day about conquerors 60% win rate?

Kahuf1
06-19-2018, 08:34 PM
And btw if u argue like this so what highlander can do against dodge attackers? Should he will cry to nerf every single dodge attack cause his move kit loose 2 moves?

Knight_Raime
06-19-2018, 08:44 PM
I dont know why everyone now have problem with him now.

There is lot of 400ms lights or even feint lights, lot of feints like shamans jump attack / bite, lot of unpanishable shieldbashes and u guys crying about highlanders 51% win rate?
Even when there is confirmed some next rework which posibly move some under50% up so Highlander probably fall down again...

Thats what my brain cannot accept.Why did u dont make like 5 threads by day about conquerors 60% win rate?

Trying to maintain a 50% win rate through balancing is what's basically killed the fun of overwatch. I really wish the devs wouldn't be doing the same here.


And btw if u argue like this so what highlander can do against dodge attackers? Should he will cry to nerf every single dodge attack cause his move kit loose 2 moves?

Dodge attacks are only thrown if he tries his mix up combo. Which HL doesn't need to do in order to win. If a dodge attack is thrown outside that point he can parry it for ballors might.

UbiJurassic
06-19-2018, 08:45 PM
Out of no where too, I'm enjoying smash ultimate, catching up on data and preparing to travel for that game. I come back here and I see Nerf highlander here and there. What did this man do all of a sudden to garnish this? where was all this talk before hand? lol

The talk has always been around. Most of the feedback we hear on Highlander stems form his kick cancel into grab and his dash recovery in offensive stance. With his buffs at the start Season 5, there definitely was a rise in overall win rate (going from 39% winrate in duels for Season 4 to a much more stable 51% in Season 5). The team definitely thinks he's in a much better place now, but we're aware that there are still some issues with the hero. We think his Defensive Stance is a bit underwhelming compared to his Offensive Stance and we agree that his Dodge while in Offensive Stance might be too strong.

RenegadeTX2000
06-19-2018, 09:16 PM
The talk has always been around. Most of the feedback we hear on Highlander stems form his kick cancel into grab and his dash recovery in offensive stance. With his buffs at the start Season 5, there definitely was a rise in overall win rate (going from 39% winrate in duels for Season 4 to a much more stable 51% in Season 5). The team definitely thinks he's in a much better place now, but we're aware that there are still some issues with the hero. We think his Defensive Stance is a bit underwhelming compared to his Offensive Stance and we agree that his Dodge while in Offensive Stance might be too strong.

well i've been a full fledged highlander main since he came out, was able to garnish a 60% win ratio before the buffs because of that offense dodge being so potent... I agree, defense should be close to on par with offense so it can bring in more unique play styles for different highlander mains.

His raw unblockable should stay 40 damage but he should get his dmg reduced back to 30 if he lands kick or his unblockable grab. I would take changes in offense for his defense to be viable.

the offense camping into side dodge kick punish makes certain characters in the cast obsolete.

RenegadeTX2000
06-20-2018, 03:20 AM
I'd rather him losing access to that quick punish and instead buffing his offense lights more... The instant side dodge into Kick is a little ridiculous. Make it to how his unblockable baylors might is after a dodge. can't immediately access his unblockable baylors after a side dodge.

That's how I would fix it. but keep his side dodges for how good they are. 10 dmg punishes for 400ms dodging attacks seems fair.

or you could re haul it and make it 500ms and make offense light more potent and just nerf his 40 dmg to 30-35. While really tuning up his Defense stance to be more effective.