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RexXZ347
06-17-2018, 03:22 PM
Could someone please explain to me why does the kensei have a ****in 400ms light attacks??? His weapon is a odachi. A ****in odachi! Who's center of gravity is 45.5 cm from the user and who's weight is more than 2 kg! "O" in japanese means great or big and "Dachi"meaning greatsword. So it's a ****in HEAVY weapon and kensei's moveset should be like of a highlander! But instead kensei's moveset is of an assassin. His side dodge is too safe that the only thing you can do is bait it. But if you miss just a split second it's a sure hit. Plus look at his feet when he is doing it. How the **** can a man move his feet like that? Only ants and insects can move their feet like that. For honor should be included on those fantasy genre. Physics doesn't count here.

Arekonator
06-17-2018, 03:45 PM
Because he doesnt, his fastest attack is 500ms.
Please no more of the "his dash is OP" nonsense. Almost every dash is safe (except for glad and valk) unless you bait it. Kensei got the slowest dash attack in the game.

Vakris_One
06-17-2018, 03:53 PM
Could someone please explain to me why does the kensei have a ****in 400ms light attacks??? His weapon is a odachi. A ****in odachi! Who's center of gravity is 45.5 cm from the user and who's weight is more than 2 kg! "O" in japanese means great or big and "Dachi"meaning greatsword. So it's a ****in HEAVY weapon and kensei's moveset should be like of a highlander! But instead kensei's moveset is of an assassin. His side dodge is too safe that the only thing you can do is bait it. But if you miss just a split second it's a sure hit. Plus look at his feet when he is doing it. How the **** can a man move his feet like that? Only ants and insects can move their feet like that. For honor should be included on those fantasy genre. Physics doesn't count here.

1) Kensei doesn't have any 400ms attacks. His top light and comboed lights are 500ms. His side lights are 600ms. His heavies are all among the slowest in the entire game.

2) The Nodachi may be a big sword but it's still much lighter than the Highlander's Claymore. Top down strikes with a Nodachi in real life can be done very quickly by an experienced wielder of this weapon. The Kensei's speed overall is in-between the Orochi and the Highlander, i.e. slower than Orochi but generally a bit faster than Highlander.

3) This game IS a fantasy game. It is not meant to be about 100% real world physics and realism. It's meant to be about entertainment and wish fulfillment. If it was meant to be realistic then the Lawbringer would kill everyone in the roster with only the Shugoki and Conq able to do some damage to him.

4) His side dodge attack functions exactly like any other side dodge attack in the game. The only difference is he can slightly delay the startup of the attack. The way you handle side dodge attacks is to bait them with a feint and then parry them. In the Kensei's case his dodge attack is the slowest dodge attack in the entire game therefore it is among the easiest ones to parry. If you can't parry it yet then you need to practice more.

There is nothing "safe" about his dodge attack. He can be stuffed out of it if he miss-times it as the following clips show:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8DcfhGJxIeA

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H_RjQp6rUk0

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_GTNVz5UpU

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FDtS3it6olg

Lord_Cherubi
06-17-2018, 03:54 PM
I know absolutely nothing when it comes to facts regarding this topic but i always thought all of the katana-type weapons were incredible light compared to western longswords for example.

To me Odachi looks like a pretty fluid weapon to use for a skilled wielder, despite being so long? I mean it propably is somewhat heavy but with proper technique i would think you're able to strike fast.

AkenoKobayashi
06-18-2018, 01:10 AM
Kensei is the bar. Bring everyone else up to him.

RexXZ347
06-18-2018, 01:48 AM
Have you guys held a 2 kg weapon who's center of gravity is 45.5cm away from the user? No? Well i did. So you have guys have no idea how heavy it is. Even though an odachi is lighter than a claymore by just 0.5kg it is still a greatsword. Yes. Odachi is 2kg and a claymore is 2.2kg to 2.8kg in weight. So they should have a close moveset when using it. Being lighter by a bit doesn't mean he should have the same speed as the assassins. In fact. A shugoki club is lighter than the odachi being wood in composition against metal and long in composition so kensei ahouldn't have lightning speed attacks or dodge.

NHLGoldenKnight
06-18-2018, 02:14 AM
OP is completely right but asking even for tiny bit of logic is no-no on this forum. You will always face group of For Honor apologists who justify everything wrong with simple statement that this is just a fantasy game.

However, there is really not much fantasy going on expect for a setting, which is some alternate universe. Other than that, weapons are weapons and base on game, they kill same as they would in our world.

Kensei fighting style is completely wrong and it would suit Orrochi much better. He couldn't do half of those moves with odachi.

Also, if we stick to game itself, it doesn't make sense that we have one Vanguard who has dodge attack and others don't. Not to mention reach of his weapon and damage which in right hands, makes him strongest Vanguard by far.

ChampionRuby50g
06-18-2018, 02:45 AM
OP is not completely right if OP canít even get the attack speed correct. If youíre gonna complain about something, at least get all your facts right first.

Alustar.
06-18-2018, 02:54 AM
OP is completely right but asking even for tiny bit of logic is no-no on this forum. You will always face group of For Honor apologists who justify everything wrong with simple statement that this is just a fantasy game.

However, there is really not much fantasy going on expect for a setting, which is some alternate universe. Other than that, weapons are weapons and base on game, they kill same as they would in our world.

Kensei fighting style is completely wrong and it would suit Orrochi much better. He couldn't do half of those moves with odachi.

Also, if we stick to game itself, it doesn't make sense that we have one Vanguard who has dodge attack and others don't. Not to mention reach of his weapon and damage which in right hands, makes him strongest Vanguard by far.

The irony of a statement crying for logic when trying to argue about the realism of a fantasy game is staggering... -_-

Arekonator
06-18-2018, 02:54 AM
Others vanguard also got dodge attacks tho. Kensei is best vanguard because he is the only one post-rework. Comparing reworked characters with non-reworked is wrong for obvious reasons that i should not have to explain. Kensei fighting style revolves around wide, sweeping strikes, i cant honestly imagine orochi fight that way. And if you check the actual frame values, you will find that highlander and kensei are pretty much on par as far as speed goes.

That all being said, you are complaining about "lightning speed" of character that is in comparsion to the rest of the cast painfully average, even leaning more to the slow side.

Sidenote: from my personal experience with various weapons, you are making statements that are simply wrong.

Vakris_One
06-18-2018, 03:34 AM
OP is completely right but asking even for tiny bit of logic is no-no on this forum. You will always face group of For Honor apologists who justify everything wrong with simple statement that this is just a fantasy game.

However, there is really not much fantasy going on expect for a setting, which is some alternate universe. Other than that, weapons are weapons and base on game, they kill same as they would in our world.

Kensei fighting style is completely wrong and it would suit Orrochi much better. He couldn't do half of those moves with odachi.

Also, if we stick to game itself, it doesn't make sense that we have one Vanguard who has dodge attack and others don't. Not to mention reach of his weapon and damage which in right hands, makes him strongest Vanguard by far.
How is OP right when he didn't even get the attack speeds right? From the very first sentence his statement was a fail. And both of you name dropping "Odachi" like it's a word the OP read yesterday and thought sounded cool and you just bandwagoned on without fact checking what it actually means. Oh my goodness. And you don't even know that all 3 Vanguards have dodge attack options.
- Warden has dodge shoulder bash
- Kensei has dodge heavy attack
- Raider has dodge guardbreak

I mean.... dude. Before you mouth off about something you should at least make sure you're not the second most uninformed person in the room.


Have you guys held a 2 kg weapon who's center of gravity is 45.5cm away from the user? No? Well i did. So you have guys have no idea how heavy it is. Even though an odachi is lighter than a claymore by just 0.5kg it is still a greatsword. Yes. Odachi is 2kg and a claymore is 2.2kg to 2.8kg in weight. So they should have a close moveset when using it. Being lighter by a bit doesn't mean he should have the same speed as the assassins. In fact. A shugoki club is lighter than the odachi being wood in composition against metal and long in composition so kensei ahouldn't have lightning speed attacks or dodge.
My dude. Let's put aside for one moment how you completely ignored my post calling you up on all of the utter bullsh/t you wrote in your OP. The simple fact that you are incorrectly calling the Kensei's weapon an "Odachi" tells me all I need to know about your so called expertise on the matter.

An Odachi is roughly twice the size of the Kensei's weapon in this game, which is in fact a Nodachi. Now I know "Odachi" makes you sound more mysterious when you write it out in crayons but here's a simple picture to help you learn something:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e0/0e/00/e00e00ba9d2d5aeb9a7697460e47fb18.jpg

You're welcome for this education. Oh and pro tip; always hold it by the hilt and not by the sharp blade :)

Lord_Cherubi
06-18-2018, 03:37 AM
Honestly, if we're looking at his moves the only thing that i might not fully buy is the stabbing motion of his top light cuz that looks like it would be pretty damn hard to pull off with that speed. (And the forward flipping top heavy is a bit crazy obiviously)

But come on it's a freaking video game, isn't fancy moves and heroic characters the very reason we all bought this game? Some of the executions throw realism ALL the way trough window but who the **** cares, they look epic.

If we could throw a bunch of samurai, knights and vikings into a pit to fight till death right now, i can assure you it wouldn't look fun or exciting. They would just hack and slash each other until one of them remains. It would propably be over very fast too because they were trained to kill, preferably with one strike. They we'rent trained to pull of fancy leap attacks or shout AD MORTEM INIMICUS! Or a Orochi deflect for god's sake, even if someone could do that, would you think anyone would ever be insane enough to try that in a life-threatening situation?

I get that people value realism and to certain point i do so myself. Hell, Shaolin looks pretty badass but you'll have a hard time convincing me he'd ever face a Lawbringer one on one and live to tell his friends about it. But not everything has to be realistic in a game like this.

Sorry for a long post, cheers!

Lord_Cherubi
06-18-2018, 03:42 AM
How is OP right when he didn't even get the attack speeds right? From the very first sentence his statement was a fail. And both of you name dropping "Odachi" like it's a word the OP read yesterday and thought sounded cool and you just bandwagoned on without fact checking what it actually means. Oh my goodness. And you don't even know that all 3 Vanguards have dodge attack options.
- Warden has dodge shoulder bash
- Kensei has dodge heavy attack
- Raider has dodge guardbreak

I mean.... dude. Before you mouth off about something you should at least make sure you're not the second most uninformed person in the room.


My dude. Let's put aside for one moment how you completely ignored my post calling you up on all of the utter bullsh/t you wrote in your OP. The simple fact that you are incorrectly calling the Kensei's weapon an "Odachi" tells me all I need to know about your so called expertise on the matter.

An Odachi is roughly twice the size of the Kensei's weapon in this game, which is in fact a Nodachi. Now I know "Odachi" makes you sound more mysterious when you write it out in crayons but here's a simple picture to help you learn something:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e0/0e/00/e00e00ba9d2d5aeb9a7697460e47fb18.jpg

You're welcome for this education. Oh and pro tip; always hold it by the hilt and not by the sharp blade :)

Dear god, the last one looks like something from Monster Hunter World lol

Siegfried-Z
06-18-2018, 12:38 PM
Omg thanksfully some people there are objectiv.

There are still players complaining about Kensei Dash ? Really..

And about Kensei lights ? At a certain level Kensei lights if not used by the Top are almost always parried.

I don't get it.. most char of the roaster has faster lights .

I am a Kensei Main since season 3 and believe me while playing Kensei try to engage without beeing punished agaisnt a good Roch or good Pk with crazy fast lights and zone while they are sticking at you.. Hell

Lord_Cherubi
06-18-2018, 12:52 PM
Omg thanksfully some people there are objectiv.

There are still players complaining about Kensei Dash ? Really..

And about Kensei lights ? At a certain level Kensei lights if not used by the Top are almost always parried.

I don't get it.. most char of the roaster has faster lights .

I am a Kensei Main since season 3 and believe me while playing Kensei try to engage without beeing punished agaisnt a good Roch or good Pk with crazy fast lights and zone while they are sticking at you.. Hell

Im a rep 5 Kensei and i can admit that at first i struggled hard against the dodge attack myself. For me i guess the difficulty was that while he moves to one direction the indicator appears from opposing side, unlike in other dodge attacks, it was confusing at first.

But for ****'s sake, how long has it been since his rework? Im surprised that most of the complainers can react to his last second feints with hyper armor no problem but they can't overcome one move that's easy to counter once you start thinking about it right and get it into your muscle memory.

Siegfried-Z
06-18-2018, 02:20 PM
Im a rep 5 Kensei and i can admit that at first i struggled hard against the dodge attack myself. For me i guess the difficulty was that while he moves to one direction the indicator appears from opposing side, unlike in other dodge attacks, it was confusing at first.

But for ****'s sake, how long has it been since his rework? Im surprised that most of the complainers can react to his last second feints with hyper armor no problem but they can't overcome one move that's easy to counter once you start thinking about it right and get it into your muscle memory.

That's the point.

Once you got used to his opposite side attacks when he dash.. it is so easy to parry or deflect..

HazelrahFirefly
06-18-2018, 04:36 PM
Kensei is the bar. Bring everyone else up to him.

Agreed. Both he and the Orochi are pretty much as balanced as we could hope for.

HazelrahFirefly
06-18-2018, 04:38 PM
Dear god, the last one looks like something from Monster Hunter World lol

Or perhaps a blade someone named Sephiroth might use ;)

NHLGoldenKnight
06-18-2018, 07:12 PM
OP is not completely right if OP canít even get the attack speed correct. If youíre gonna complain about something, at least get all your facts right first.

That still doesn't make his complaint any less relevant. He is correct when it comes to weapon and how Kensei moves look way to fast and fluid when you take into account that he is using Japanese variation of a great sword ( odachi or nodachi ) and the fact that he is Vanguard. Kensei could have many extra moves that I wouldn't complain about, but as long as they are not dodge attacks at current speed. Looks ridiculous and his movement had to be adjusted because of the size of his weapon so it looks too scripted, like he moves without actually moving at all, if that makes any sense. Can't explain it better.

HazelrahFirefly
06-18-2018, 07:29 PM
No argument regarding the realism or physics of an attack should ever be made.

It's a videogame,and not realistic. All that should be discussed is the balance of any move or combo. For example, I take umbrage with the Shinobi's deflect - not because he teleports behind the enemy however. I only disapprove of it because it is automatic, no button has to be pressed to I mi initiate the damage. If all the other assassins have to hit a button to determine deflects purposefully, the Shinobi should as well!

NHLGoldenKnight
06-18-2018, 07:30 PM
How is OP right when he didn't even get the attack speeds right? From the very first sentence his statement was a fail. And both of you name dropping "Odachi" like it's a word the OP read yesterday and thought sounded cool and you just bandwagoned on without fact checking what it actually means. Oh my goodness. And you don't even know that all 3 Vanguards have dodge attack options.
- Warden has dodge shoulder bash
- Kensei has dodge heavy attack
- Raider has dodge guardbreak

I mean.... dude. Before you mouth off about something you should at least make sure you're not the second most uninformed person in the room.


My dude. Let's put aside for one moment how you completely ignored my post calling you up on all of the utter bullsh/t you wrote in your OP. The simple fact that you are incorrectly calling the Kensei's weapon an "Odachi" tells me all I need to know about your so called expertise on the matter.

An Odachi is roughly twice the size of the Kensei's weapon in this game, which is in fact a Nodachi. Now I know "Odachi" makes you sound more mysterious when you write it out in crayons but here's a simple picture to help you learn something:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e0/0e/00/e00e00ba9d2d5aeb9a7697460e47fb18.jpg

You're welcome for this education. Oh and pro tip; always hold it by the hilt and not by the sharp blade :)

Where do you want me to start? First of all, you are constantly acting as know it all guy. No one can't express their opinion or complain agains something he feels is wrong without you coming and telling everyone how wrong they are. You are one of the worst game apologists I have ever seen on any of the gaming related forums .

I stated the fact, which you completely ignored. Kensei is the only Vanguard that has a dodge attack. And your justification for that is shoulder bash and GB from other Vanguards? Those are not even real attacks and they are definitely not attacks with 6 feet reach and significant damage.

You are also wrong about the weapon. I know you wanted to look smart after you did little google research, but you missed the point. Kensei could use both weapons, odachi or nodachi. However, there was not real standard when it comes to size and difference between them and in many occasions odachi=nodachi and they can be same thing. According to picture you posted, Kensei could use odochi and long nodachi. We wouldn't know. In both instances, it would be extremely hard if not impossible to move and attack the way Kensei does. (There is misconception when it comes to Japanese swords including katana. Everyone thinks those are some featherlight weapons that can cut through engine block. Oh who wrong that is. On equal length, katana actually can be heavier than long sword, and generally, doesn't give any fighting advantage when compared to European swords. Also, moving up to odachi/nodachi, makes it even worse and less usable in 1v1 fight.)

Now you are going to tell me how this is just a fantasy game and that is fair enough. So I am proposing a new heroe. Strong, 3 year old baby Spartan, with long beard and butter knife. He will have multiple unblockables, highest damage and longer reach than that of a spear. Why not, it is just a fantasy game.

BabaJaga.
06-18-2018, 07:40 PM
That still doesn't make his complaint any less relevant. He is correct when it comes to weapon and how Kensei moves look way to fast and fluid when you take into account that he is using Japanese variation of a great sword ( odachi or nodachi ) and the fact that he is Vanguard. Kensei could have many extra moves that I wouldn't complain about, but as long as they are not dodge attacks at current speed. Looks ridiculous and his movement had to be adjusted because of the size of his weapon so it looks too scripted, like he moves without actually moving at all, if that makes any sense. Can't explain it better.

So you said Kensei could have many extra moves that I wouldn't complain about, but as long as they are not dodge attacks at current speed. Looks ridiculous and his movement had to be adjusted because of the size of his weapon so it looks too scripted, like he moves without actually moving at all, if that makes any sense."

So all the moves like Shugoki, Knights with full armor when they performing rollout or jumping from the hights looks ridiculous :)
OMG ppl are funny.

Arekonator
06-18-2018, 08:34 PM
those are not real dodge attacks

Its attack thats initiated with dodge input? Yes. So you are factually wrong. Also raider got dodge into stuntap. Which is dodge attack. Real dodge attack.
Warden shoulderbash confirms 24dmg on hit and can loop back into itself. Raider tap does 18 damage and open up his mixup game. Kensei does 20 damage and also open his mixup. Seem pretty even across the board doesnt it? So much for that "significant damage"
Now lets do some fact checks. Warden side lights are 600ms, top lights 500ms. Kensei side lights are 600ms, top lights 500ms. Highlander lights are 600ms from all direction, etc.
OP is complaining about "lightning speed" of kensei, while his speed is completely average when you compare him to the rest of the cast. OP also incorrectly states about kensei having 400ms attacks while in fact he got none. Only way you can even get close to it is by delaying the input on his light finisher, which will get you to 430-450ms range. But delayable attacks are not kensei specific issue.
Still comparing post-rework character with pre-rework ones.

TL;DR: You and OP are wrong and no ammount of hyperbole you try cant change that.

Lord_Cherubi
06-18-2018, 08:46 PM
I guess if we had a real life Kensei here discussing this with us we could ask him about the weight of his weapon and whether he'd be able to perform a dodge attack or not but for now we have to do with what Ubi has created for us.

And why exactly isn't Warden shoulder bash an "real" dodge attack? Because the bash itself doesn't do damage? It still guarantees a follow up attack...

HKPirate
06-18-2018, 09:55 PM
Its attack thats initiated with dodge input? Yes. So you are factually wrong. Also raider got dodge into stuntap. Which is dodge attack. Real dodge attack.
Warden shoulderbash confirms 24dmg on hit and can loop back into itself. Raider tap does 18 damage and open up his mixup game. Kensei does 20 damage and also open his mixup. Seem pretty even across the board doesnt it? So much for that "significant damage"
Now lets do some fact checks. Warden side lights are 600ms, top lights 500ms. Kensei side lights are 600ms, top lights 500ms. Highlander lights are 600ms from all direction, etc.
OP is complaining about "lightning speed" of kensei, while his speed is completely average when you compare him to the rest of the cast. OP also incorrectly states about kensei having 400ms attacks while in fact he got none. Only way you can even get close to it is by delaying the input on his light finisher, which will get you to 430-450ms range. But delayable attacks are not kensei specific issue.
Still comparing post-rework character with pre-rework ones.

TL;DR: You and OP are wrong and no ammount of hyperbole you try cant change that.

Lol to put warden on the same level as kensi automatically disqualifies you from the convo warden is and has been the worst character in the game since the nerf hammer dropped on him forever ago.

Vakris_One
06-18-2018, 10:15 PM
Where do you want me to start? First of all, you are constantly acting as know it all guy. No one can't express their opinion or complain agains something he feels is wrong without you coming and telling everyone how wrong they are. You are one of the worst game apologists I have ever seen on any of the gaming related forums.
So let me get this straight, you're upset that I am right most of the time when I challenge someone's facts on a subject. I mean that's a problem with you rather than with me. What would you like me to do? Hold my tongue whenever I see someone posting something that is objectively wrong because it might upset that person's ego to know that they have their facts wrong. With all due respect: get real. And as for your nonsense "game apologist" comment, please feel free to find even a single time where I am making excuses for any kind of game mechanic without having factual evidence to back up my opinion. You won't find even a single one but hey it's always easier to spout nonsense and insult people who disagree with you instead of actually checking up on your facts before typing away.



I stated the fact, which you completely ignored. Kensei is the only Vanguard that has a dodge attack. And your justification for that is shoulder bash and GB from other Vanguards? Those are not even real attacks and they are definitely not attacks with 6 feet reach and significant damage.
I didn't ignore it I said you were wrong because all 3 Vanguards have dodge attacks. Are you kidding me when you say "those aren't real attacks"? Warden's shoulder bash guarantees him two side lights both of which are 15 damage for a total of 30 damage plus some stamina drain. Raider's forward dodge into stunning tap gets him 18 damage. Raider's side dodge into GB gets him a guardbreak which then gets him a heavy worth 30-35 damage or a Raider shoulder carry which drains a ton of stamina and still guarantees his heavy or his zone. The Kensei does 20 damage with his dodge attack so please explain to me how you can reach the conclusion that Kensei does "significant damage" whereas the other two apparently aren't even "real attacks"? There's just no logic to your statement at all.



You are also wrong about the weapon. I know you wanted to look smart after you did little google research, but you missed the point. Kensei could use both weapons, odachi or nodachi. However, there was not real standard when it comes to size and difference between them and in many occasions odachi=nodachi and they can be same thing. According to picture you posted, Kensei could use odochi and long nodachi. We wouldn't know.
Except that the Kensei in this game is using a Nodachi. It is the correct size for what is most commonly regarded as a Nodachi and the developers themselves have categorised it as a Nodachi. You keep skirting around this hard fact with whataboutery instead of just admitting that you are wrong. Even in the picture I posted you can clearly measure and compare where the Kensei's hands are on the hilt of his weapon with where they would be on the weapons in that picture. If he were wielding an Odachi or even a long Nodachi the hilt and the blade as represented in the game would have to be much longer. His hands would grasp the hilt and he would still have around 2-3 meters of the hilt left if he were wielding an Odachi. The man is clearly wielding a Nodachi my friend. But if you really cannot bring yourself to admit that I am right then take it from the developers themselves who time and time again refer to Kensei's sword as a Nodachi.



In both instances, it would be extremely hard if not impossible to move and attack the way Kensei does. (There is misconception when it comes to Japanese swords including katana. Everyone thinks those are some featherlight weapons that can cut through engine block. Oh who wrong that is. On equal length, katana actually can be heavier than long sword, and generally, doesn't give any fighting advantage when compared to European swords. Also, moving up to odachi/nodachi, makes it even worse and less usable in 1v1 fight.)
So two points,

1) Kensei has some of the slowest and most telegraphed attacks in the game already. To imply, as you are, that he moves far too quickly is both hyperbolic and disingenuous since the majority of his attacks are some of the slowest in the game. Only his zone and his top light are 500ms, which is the standard speed of some of the other Vanguard's lights. His side lights are 600ms, which again is the standard speed of the other Vanguard's lights.

2) Are we going to suddenly pick and choose which characters should conform more to reality and which shouldn't? Who gets to choose which characters should be more realistic and which should be left alone as the video game characters that they are? I guess we'll make everything the Shugoki throws out to be around between 700ms and 1800ms because he's swinging a giant metal Kanabo around. And I guess we'll also make the Raider a one hit kill for everyone because he is wearing absolutely no armour on his torso. And by the same logic we should make the Lawbringer invulnerable to every bladed weapon in the game. The balancing will be a complete mess but hey who cares as long as we have realism right?



Now you are going to tell me how this is just a fantasy game and that is fair enough. So I am proposing a new heroe. Strong, 3 year old baby Spartan, with long beard and butter knife. He will have multiple unblockables, highest damage and longer reach than that of a spear. Why not, it is just a fantasy game.
Sure, why not? If the developers want to do that it's their game, their rules. But you are just creating a straw man argument with such an obviously over the top example. At the end of the day this is a fantasy video game - like pretty much every video game ever made if you think about it - where the gameplay mechanics and balance between characters will always be more important than a strict adherence to realism. That's not to say the game cannot be immersive or have realistic things in it but the main point is this isn't real life, it is a video game made to live out a fantasy that does not/cannot exist in real life.

If you're looking for a more realistic approach to the gameplay than For Honor provides then that's fine and there are plenty of games out there for you to play instead if you wish. But staying here and bit**ing about how For Honor should arbitrarily start conforming more to realism is really kind of pointless because the developers aren't likely to change the core fundamental nature of their game.

Alustar.
06-18-2018, 10:33 PM
Lol to put warden on the same level as kensi automatically disqualifies you from the convo warden is and has been the worst character in the game since the nerf hammer dropped on him forever ago.

He never put warden on the same level as Kensei, he merely pointed out that these vanguard heroes have the same values for heavy attacks and each has a dodge system to initiate combos. So maybe you should be disqualified from the argument for blatantly misquoting someone in order to nullify his argument?

Arekonator
06-19-2018, 05:15 PM
Lol to put warden on the same level as kensi automatically disqualifies you from the convo warden is and has been the worst character in the game since the nerf hammer dropped on him forever ago.

I never put the kensei on level of warden. I simply compared two specific moves they both got: Dodge attacks and light openers.
Dodge attacks between all vanguards confirm roughly the same damage (18-24) and can be followed by their respecitve mixups. To show that all vanguards got "real" dodge attacks and kensei doesnt have "significant damage" advantage in this regard.
Light openers to show that kensei doesnt posses "lightning speed" compared to rest of the cast, because his attack speeds are very average.

I am well avare that kensei at the moment stands way above warden and to a degree raider (raider at least got things going for him in 4v4 modes). And that making statements that kensei is the best vanguard and should be nerfed is stupid, because unlike the two, kensei already got his rework., so this comparsion is inherently unfair.

Sidenote: Warden is not the worst character in the game, Valk is significantly worse of than Warden.

Knight_Raime
06-19-2018, 06:09 PM
1) He doesn't have any 400ms lights. Pommel is a 400ms attack but always comes out at 600ms of his heavy feint window.

2) If we're getting realistic in here (which we shouldn't because FH is a fantasy fighter and there are plenty of things I could point out to prove it) the weapon he's using isn't even used for combat. It has been. But it's primarily a ceremonial object. Something passed down in families. That sort of thing.

Mannoloroth
06-19-2018, 08:36 PM
If Kensei is not OP why is literally AT LEAST 2 in every battle?

Arekonator
06-19-2018, 09:10 PM
If Kensei is not OP why is literally AT LEAST 2 in every battle?

There were at least three orochis in every battle since the game came out, even though orochi was considered prety bad pre-rework.
Does that mean orochi was overpowered and didnt needed the rework?

Vakris_One
06-19-2018, 10:49 PM
If Kensei is not OP why is literally AT LEAST 2 in every battle?
The popularity of a character doesn't necesarilly mean he is OP. Just look at how popular Orochi has been way before his rework. Warden is also still a popular choice, I see at least 1-2 Wardens in every second Dominion match and a Warden in every second to third Duel that I do. Just because you practically never saw a Kensei during the height of the defensive meta, i.e. Season 2 to Season 4, doesn't mean he is now OP because you see him being played more often. All it means is that he is now a viable choice whereas before only the die hard Kensei mains were still playing him.

DrinkinMehStella
06-20-2018, 09:32 AM
if you play aggressively against kensei will mostly likely beat you just with dash attacks I love an aggressive assassin because I can get a dash heavy then use my HA to get another heavy because they are too eager to finish me quickly. Now in higher plays where the opponent is more passive and it takes more thinking then its a lot harder to win as kensei because his attacks are some of the slowest in the games, so his helm splitter is the main tool and his top heavy cancel is another one of his tools and with out these he wont be able to break down the enemy.

HeintaiJesus
06-20-2018, 12:27 PM
By my grandmothers beard...
You guys are completely missing the Point.

RexXZ347, if you are honest with yourself you just don't like Kenseis sidestep attack. You're not getting into the rythm against this move and you are hating it. And you know what?

Thats

Completely

fine

We all have at least one Move or even a whole Hero we can't deal with. Maybe the move just counters your playstyle, or you'r scrweing up the Timing all the time. But nearly everyone in FH has such a Problem with a specific move/hero (yeah sure, there are proplayers n' stuff but I'm talking about the average Player).
I feel with you.
It's just frustating to see a chubby 160 kg Highlander to Naruto-Slide 6 meters across the map with his goddam unblockable grab. I hate this move, I can't get the Timing right, and seeing this unrealstic movement is just too much.

I know exactly that some People in here might say, I should Train or "gid gud" and I know they are right.
And you know it as well.

Instead of focusing about physiks, anatomy or weird japanese sword names, just talk sh*t about it. Make a fun threat. where everyone can be nasty about a move or hero they hate.
Thats way more relateable for everyone than "this move is unrealistic, because of that and that reason". It might be true, but talking about something thats not the actual Problem seems dishonest and toxic.
Saying your Opinion well knowing that People will make fun of you or disagreeing with you, makes impressive personalitys.

Hear me out: I'm not criticizing you, to see you stumble, but to see you strenghten.

Same goes for you Vakris_One .
RexXZ347 might have used his "unrealistic"_Statements to rant about the Kensei move without having to admit that he isn't a "good enough" Player.
You probably knew that. I believe you're experienced enough to straight out feel it.
Still, you decided to rub salt into the wound. To rip off his "Protection arguments".

But why?
Obviously it was gonna escalate.
Sure, he might be dishonest with himself and used his not really flawless arguments to hide but starting a disskusion about freaking Sword names have (foreseenly) lead into this salty mess.

I dont believe that you have done this on purpose just to bring toxicity on the FH boards or to humitliate him. I assume you're a very enhusiastic FH Player and the Comunity is improtant to you.
Sure. Threats like These might be a encumbrance to our beloved FH comunity but it''s way healthier to prevent toxicity from growing.
Don't mind what People say, mind what they mean.

Might be absolutely missing he Point and look snooty as hell, but I'm not saying this to shame you.
Well here are my unasked thoughts, mind them if you want.

Armosias
06-20-2018, 12:44 PM
I have just one question: have anyone here been trained in blood during countless days to the point they are considered the extreme military elite of their people? So much they are now fit to command troops and lead them into battle?

Have anyone here been wielding a Nodachi, long Nodachi or Odachi during thousands of hours, carving its mastery deep in his muscles and bones?

I think not. Then who are we to judge if Kensei's attacks are realistic?

Also please understand that a 1000 years long war is not realistic and For Honor faction war started in 2017

Vakris_One
06-20-2018, 01:04 PM
By my grandmothers beard...
You guys are completely missing the Point.

RexXZ347, if you are honest with yourself you just don't like Kenseis sidestep attack. You're not getting into the rythm against this move and you are hating it. And you know what?

Thats

Completely

fine

We all have at least one Move or even a whole Hero we can't deal with. Maybe the move just counters your playstyle, or you'r scrweing up the Timing all the time. But nearly everyone in FH has such a Problem with a specific move/hero (yeah sure, there are proplayers n' stuff but I'm talking about the average Player).
I feel with you.
It's just frustating to see a chubby 160 kg Highlander to Naruto-Slide 6 meters across the map with his goddam unblockable grab. I hate this move, I can't get the Timing right, and seeing this unrealstic movement is just too much.

I know exactly that some People in here might say, I should Train or "gid gud" and I know they are right.
And you know it as well.

Instead of focusing about physiks, anatomy or weird japanese sword names, just talk sh*t about it. Make a fun threat. where everyone can be nasty about a move or hero they hate.
Thats way more relateable for everyone than "this move is unrealistic, because of that and that reason". It might be true, but talking about something thats not the actual Problem seems dishonest and toxic.
Saying your Opinion well knowing that People will make fun of you or disagreeing with you, makes impressive personalitys.

Hear me out: I'm not criticizing you, to see you stumble, but to see you strenghten.

Same goes for you Vakris_One .
RexXZ347 might have used his "unrealistic"_Statements to rant about the Kensei move without having to admit that he isn't a "good enough" Player.
You probably knew that. I believe you're experienced enough to straight out feel it.
Still, you decided to rub salt into the wound. To rip off his "Protection arguments".

But why?
Obviously it was gonna escalate.
Sure, he might be dishonest with himself and used his not really flawless arguments to hide but starting a disskusion about freaking Sword names have (foreseenly) lead into this salty mess.

I dont believe that you have done this on purpose just to bring toxicity on the FH boards or to humitliate him. I assume you're a very enhusiastic FH Player and the Comunity is improtant to you.
Sure. Threats like These might be a encumbrance to our beloved FH comunity but it''s way healthier to prevent toxicity from growing.
Don't mind what People say, mind what they mean.

Might be absolutely missing he Point and look snooty as hell, but I'm not saying this to shame you.
Well here are my unasked thoughts, mind them if you want.
I can only respond to what the guy writes dude. I'm not psychic and deciphering the hidden meanings behind words on digital paper is pretty much impossible without seeing the person's body language. My first post in this thread was perfectly polite as I addressed all his points.

Dude then chose to ignore all that and go off on a tangent about the specific Japanese sword type of which he was incorrect. All this drama simply because I chose to correct some random guy on the Internets. Is this really a problem for some people? They can't stand some rando named Vakris correcting some other rando named Rex. Honestly I think some of you are just bored and are stirring this pot to see if a mountain can be made from a molehill.

HeintaiJesus
06-20-2018, 02:00 PM
I can only respond to what the guy writes dude. I'm not psychic and deciphering the hidden meanings behind words on digital paper is pretty much impossible without seeing the person's body language.

I see your Point. Might have read to much into this Situation.


Dude then chose to ignore all that and go off on a tangent about the specific Japanese sword type of which he was incorrect. All this drama simply because I chose to correct some random guy on the Internets.

No.
The Drama started when he went for the boards to complain about the Move, well knowing that he will be getting critiziest for not beeing good at the game. So he used this somewhat valid realism Argument so he won't be critiziesed about his skillz.
Unfortunally You were the Person that critizest his complain anyway (wich is fine, especially when beeing as objectivly like you) and thats what triggert this Drama.
I was of the assumption that you were Aware of that and you've done this on purpose. If I misjudged you and/or youre intentions I'm deeply sorry.-


Is this really a problem for some people? They can't stand some rando named Vakris correcting some other rando named Rex. Honestly I think some of you are just bored and are stirring this pot to see if a mountain can be made from a molehill.

...um.
That's what I'm (probably pretty poorly) trying to say. People don't think properly. They hear what they want to hear. "This guy is criticizing my Points to Show me his oppinion and thoughts? Nah, he's just trying to f*ck with me!!"
You can read anything into the words of others (like me lmao).

Again: this is not meant to be offending in any Kind of way.
This is my (here it Comes) opinion.
It has only as much weight as you give it.

RexXZ347
06-20-2018, 02:45 PM
I love these kinds of discussions. You will know people who are really Ubisoft fan boys and fight for them to the death and those who are honest. Odachi or nodachi they are still BOTH greatswords. Nodachi is still almost 2 kgs in weight with 90.95cm in length. The pictures you showed? Most of it is wrong and only one right. Odachi is indeed longer than the nodachi but that doesn't mean that the kensei needs to move so fast and fluid. The nodachi is still almost 2kg in weight. So look it up bookworm. So ok, i stand corrected that this game is for, pete's sake, a fantasy now. Maybe they could put up a half dragon half man meta human with 9999 damage who has 100ms light attacks. I know you will still defend ubisoft, ofcourse that's what fan boys do right? The top light attack is 500ms. But the indicator shows up late. On the dash attack Vakris_One i am not complaining about the attack. I am complaining how the hell does he move like an ant? I didn't say it is OP. I never said anything about OP.

Armosias
06-20-2018, 03:04 PM
How is it OP to move like Kensei does anyway? Not like he was trying to run away from you and this dodge is really slow... The only I issue I personnaly have with kensei dodge attack is the iframes (issue I have with every single iframes which should not exist in For Honor imo)

Vakris_One
06-20-2018, 03:19 PM
I see your Point. Might have read to much into this Situation.


No.
The Drama started when he went for the boards to complain about the Move, well knowing that he will be getting critiziest for not beeing good at the game. So he used this somewhat valid realism Argument so he won't be critiziesed about his skillz.
Unfortunally You were the Person that critizest his complain anyway (wich is fine, especially when beeing as objectivly like you) and thats what triggert this Drama.
I was of the assumption that you were Aware of that and you've done this on purpose. If I misjudged you and/or youre intentions I'm deeply sorry.-


...um.
That's what I'm (probably pretty poorly) trying to say. People don't think properly. They hear what they want to hear. "This guy is criticizing my Points to Show me his oppinion and thoughts? Nah, he's just trying to f*ck with me!!"
You can read anything into the words of others (like me lmao).

Again: this is not meant to be offending in any Kind of way.
This is my (here it Comes) opinion.
It has only as much weight as you give it.
No offense taken. You make fair points. I criticised the points he was putting across without thinking about any ulterior motives at play. Perhaps I was too naive and fell into his trap of dragging the conversation further away into debating weapons and realism rather than gameplay and game balance, which is really what it's all about at the end of the day.

I can see now he's dropped all pretenses and is going for the typical "well you're just a fanboy." response. The inevitable ad-hominem strawman fallacy of someone who cannot win an argument based on logic. You were right in your assessment of this thread HentaiJesus, I doff my cap to you.

Time to starve this thread of further unnecessary attention and let it rest in piece :)

DrinkinMehStella
06-20-2018, 03:24 PM
I love these kinds of discussions. You will know people who are really Ubisoft fan boys and fight for them to the death and those who are honest. Odachi or nodachi they are still BOTH greatswords. Nodachi is still almost 2 kgs in weight with 90.95cm in length. The pictures you showed? Most of it is wrong and only one right. Odachi is indeed longer than the nodachi but that doesn't mean that the kensei needs to move so fast and fluid. The nodachi is still almost 2kg in weight. So look it up bookworm. So ok, i stand corrected that this game is for, pete's sake, a fantasy now. Maybe they could put up a half dragon half man meta human with 9999 damage who has 100ms light attacks. I know you will still defend ubisoft, ofcourse that's what fan boys do right? The top light attack is 500ms. But the indicator shows up late. On the dash attack Vakris_One i am not complaining about the attack. I am complaining how the hell does he move like an ant? I didn't say it is OP. I never said anything about OP.

erm because we might defend a game, a mechanic or even the developers and it might be different from your opinion doesn't mean any one is fan boy, I think I can speak for most of us here in saying that we have a love hate relationship with Ubisoft, if things are great then we shall praise Ubisoft if things are bad and broken then we shall slate Ubisoft but it has nothing to do with being a fan boy, people just don't agree with you and thats what a discussion is.

HazelrahFirefly
06-20-2018, 03:52 PM
The weight of the Kensei's blade is simply unimportant. Why doesn't the HL get absolutely exhausted after a few minutes of swinging his greatsword? Why does the Shaman's teeth bite through steel plating?

As I tried to state before, what's important are the mechanics of any given move, not the physics and reality of it.

EvoX.
06-20-2018, 05:49 PM
Kensei is the bar. Bring everyone else up to him.

Agreed completely. Kensei has nothing unfair or broken going for him, yet he's still very viable, strong in all game modes and fun. In short: he's perfect. Every hero should be the same quality, but... they won't be.

Knight_Raime
06-20-2018, 07:19 PM
I love these kinds of discussions. You will know people who are really Ubisoft fan boys and fight for them to the death and those who are honest. Odachi or nodachi they are still BOTH greatswords. Nodachi is still almost 2 kgs in weight with 90.95cm in length. The pictures you showed? Most of it is wrong and only one right. Odachi is indeed longer than the nodachi but that doesn't mean that the kensei needs to move so fast and fluid. The nodachi is still almost 2kg in weight. So look it up bookworm. So ok, i stand corrected that this game is for, pete's sake, a fantasy now. Maybe they could put up a half dragon half man meta human with 9999 damage who has 100ms light attacks. I know you will still defend ubisoft, ofcourse that's what fan boys do right? The top light attack is 500ms. But the indicator shows up late. On the dash attack Vakris_One i am not complaining about the attack. I am complaining how the hell does he move like an ant? I didn't say it is OP. I never said anything about OP.

You're grasping. Just because it's a fantasy game doesn't mean suspension of believe is completely thrown out the window and anything goes. As an example. Yes. None of what kensei does attack wise is actually combat viable. Nor is his weapon. But it's still believable looking. Versus the devs adding in actual magic with the Shaolin monk being able to teleport to allies and enemies in 4's.

As for your comment on the indicator it doesn't show up late. If it did it was a connection problem. If you want to see a hero who actually has indicator issues look at shaman's jump heavies.