PDA

View Full Version : Community question regarding "openers."



Knight_Raime
06-13-2018, 07:34 PM
A simple question. What do you consider to be an opener? I ask because everyone seems to think all heros should have an opener. And that's usually referred to as an easy access unblockable from neutral. For which i'm against. But I don't think i've ever seen anyone try to explain what they want as an opener. So please tell me what you think one is?

PepsiBeastin
06-13-2018, 07:44 PM
I see it as anything that forces a defensive reaction (besides normal blocking I guess), or at the very least forces your opponent to move and stay on their feet. I with movement was a larger part of this game but tracking doesn't allow that.

Knight_Raime
06-13-2018, 08:10 PM
I see it as anything that forces a defensive reaction (besides normal blocking I guess), or at the very least forces your opponent to move and stay on their feet. I with movement was a larger part of this game but tracking doesn't allow that.

So would you consider Orochi's tri-directional 400ms lights to be openers? Or what about his Storm rush?

PepsiBeastin
06-13-2018, 08:23 PM
So would you consider Orochi's tri-directional 400ms lights to be openers? Or what about his Storm rush?

His only lights that are 400 are comboed so they are definitely not openers, and storm rush is more of a trick move than an opener. I agree with the sentiment that the indicators should be shown a bit before they are now.

Knight_Raime
06-13-2018, 08:27 PM
His only lights that are 400 are comboed so they are definitely not openers, and storm rush is more of a trick move than an opener. I agree with the sentiment that the indicators should be shown a bit before they are now.

I consider them to be openers because they are not easily defended against by anyone and it's not hard to get to them. I don't think it's a requirement to have to come from neutral to be an opener. If storm rush can't be regularly dealt with by blocking or parrying then how is it not an opener? The hiding of the indicators is what makes it usable.

BlowHard74728
06-14-2018, 05:13 AM
Am I the only one that feels orchi's reworked storm rush isn't any better than his original? It seems rather easy to knock him out of it before he actually reaches me. I have yet to come across one that plays a whole lot of mind games with storm rush so that could very well be the reasoning.

Im just thankful he doesnt have HA on it or my *** would be destroyed.

When I hear openers I tend to think of moves or counter moves that allow the hero to go into a combo. For instance when Beserker parries an attack (light or heavy) he can hit the opponent with a light from any direction or a heavy from the side. Giving him the opportunity to move into his common infinite combo (light, heavy, light, etc.)

But I understand people believe them to be attacks that forces the opponent to react another way then just blocking which makes more sense

Such as Raider's zone from neutral, wardens shoulder bash (along with conqueror) and shaman's tackle/bump (cant remember the name)

Fairemont
06-14-2018, 05:41 AM
I'd like to think an opener is anything that forces an opponent to think about their defense. It does not need to be guaranteed or a perfect 50/50 or anything like that, but a character should have at least one or two methods of prompting a foe to consider how to react. Could be feints, could be unblockables, undodgeables, or just plain fast moves with animations that make them tricky to read. Most characters have them in some capacity. However, what hurts those openers on some of the characters that people say don't have any is that they have only one option, and thus that opener becomes less effective.


Heroes should have at least two methods of approaching their offense from a neutral standpoint, or in the case of heroes like Nobushi, have something that allows them to turn someone's offense against them.

Knight_Raime
06-14-2018, 07:25 AM
Am I the only one that feels orchi's reworked storm rush isn't any better than his original? It seems rather easy to knock him out of it before he actually reaches me. I have yet to come across one that plays a whole lot of mind games with storm rush so that could very well be the reasoning.

Im just thankful he doesnt have HA on it or my *** would be destroyed.

When I hear openers I tend to think of moves or counter moves that allow the hero to go into a combo. For instance when Beserker parries an attack (light or heavy) he can hit the opponent with a light from any direction or a heavy from the side. Giving him the opportunity to move into his common infinite combo (light, heavy, light, etc.)

But I understand people believe them to be attacks that forces the opponent to react another way then just blocking which makes more sense

Such as Raider's zone from neutral, wardens shoulder bash (along with conqueror) and shaman's tackle/bump (cant remember the name)

For me I've yet to come across someone who can consistently deal with storm rush. It's pretty easy to bait people into trying to attack it for a free deflect or a free GB. Yeah my issue with giving everyone an unblockable opener is that it negates defensive play entirely.


I'd like to think an opener is anything that forces an opponent to think about their defense. It does not need to be guaranteed or a perfect 50/50 or anything like that, but a character should have at least one or two methods of prompting a foe to consider how to react. Could be feints, could be unblockables, undodgeables, or just plain fast moves with animations that make them tricky to read. Most characters have them in some capacity. However, what hurts those openers on some of the characters that people say don't have any is that they have only one option, and thus that opener becomes less effective.


Heroes should have at least two methods of approaching their offense from a neutral standpoint, or in the case of heroes like Nobushi, have something that allows them to turn someone's offense against them.

This is more in line with my opinion. An opener imo is something that isn't easily defended against. Like rochi's unreactable 400ms in combo lights. The rest of his kit is built to let him use those very often. Meaning it's pretty difficult to just block everything from him. with Bushi she needs a lot tbh. She needs more access to hidden stance (like being able to use it mid combo from a soft feint or something,) faster in combo and neutral lights, etc.

DrinkinMyStella
06-14-2018, 08:57 AM
for me an opener is to open up a turtle and break his guard, kensei hilt bash, warden SB, WL Headbutt basically a unblockable push/shove etc not an attack just a move that opens them up for an attack. I think every hero should have a neutral opener not that guarantees damage just something to break the guard and allows the possibility of dmg.

Tyrjo
06-14-2018, 10:36 AM
Warlord headbutt is not an opener. A passive player will dodge it, which will get you guard broken.

I'd say crashing charge mix up is more of an opener, because it can provoke a reaction. Cool cucumbers don't react in panic though, so it's not always that useful.

DrinkinMyStella
06-14-2018, 10:39 AM
Warlord headbutt is not an opener. A passive player will dodge it, which will get you guard broken.

I'd say crashing charge mix up is more of an opener, because it can provoke a reaction. Cool cucumbers don't react in panic though, so it's not always that useful.

then nothing is an opener because everything can be dodged (except for undodgeable attacks obviously), cents kick can be dodged and can get a free GB but thats an opener. an opener is the potential breaking of a turtle they can still dodge etc but its better than not having an opener

bananaflow2017
06-14-2018, 12:00 PM
then nothing is an opener because everything can be dodged (except for undodgeable attacks obviously), cents kick can be dodged and can get a free GB but thats an opener. an opener is the potential breaking of a turtle they can still dodge etc but its better than not having an opener

Most of this skills are really no openers, because they usually grant a light or get punished with a gb.
But some of them are a little better. For example the highlander 50/50 or kensei soft feint. They force you to do something and in the case of hl even got a tool to counter the only viable reaction to it. It also grants a heavy instead of a light, so its really worth trying...

DrinkinMyStella
06-14-2018, 01:34 PM
Most of this skills are really no openers, because they usually grant a light or get punished with a gb.
But some of them are a little better. For example the highlander 50/50 or kensei soft feint. They force you to do something and in the case of hl even got a tool to counter the only viable reaction to it. It also grants a heavy instead of a light, so its really worth trying...

I think we need a mod or a dev to come and explain what an opener is because then in that case no one is right because no one really knows.

PDXGorechild
06-14-2018, 03:56 PM
for me an opener is to open up a turtle and break his guard, kensei hilt bash, warden SB, WL Headbutt basically a unblockable push/shove etc not an attack just a move that opens them up for an attack. I think every hero should have a neutral opener not that guarantees damage just something to break the guard and allows the possibility of dmg.

Yeah what he said. Gladiator punch, Shoulder bash, Hilt bash etc. Or an unblockable from neutral.

BTTrinity
06-14-2018, 04:05 PM
for me an opener is to open up a turtle and break his guard, kensei hilt bash, warden SB, WL Headbutt basically a unblockable push/shove etc not an attack just a move that opens them up for an attack. I think every hero should have a neutral opener not that guarantees damage just something to break the guard and allows the possibility of dmg.

Same


Warlord headbutt is not an opener. A passive player will dodge it, which will get you guard broken.

I'd say crashing charge mix up is more of an opener, because it can provoke a reaction. Cool cucumbers don't react in panic though, so it's not always that useful.

Funny, because I see most players... Even top tier players get caught by headbutt more often than not, as long as Warlord isnt spamming it.

Tyrjo
06-14-2018, 04:37 PM
Same



Funny, because I see most players... Even top tier players get caught by headbutt more often than not, as long as Warlord isnt spamming it.

Getting caught by a headbutt of course happens, if you mix it into other attacks and/or feints. But if an opener is something that is supposed to crack open a turtle, headbutt is not your go to move to inititate with, at least not if your opponent is super defensive. If a missed headbutt didn't grant your opponent a GB, it would be an opener. It's like saying the Gladiator toe stab is an opener.

DrinkinMyStella
06-14-2018, 04:42 PM
Getting caught by a headbutt of course happens, if you mix it into other attacks and/or feints. But if an opener is something that is supposed to crack open a turtle, headbutt is not your go to move to inititate with, at least not if your opponent is super defensive. If a missed headbutt didn't grant your opponent a GB, it would be an opener. It's like saying the Gladiator toe stab is an opener.

when using WL his headbutt is his opener it forces a dodge or a turtle to move or break guard, I know what your saying and WL doesn't have a true opener but thats still considered an opener. Glads toe stab is an opener because if someone's play defensive then that will cause them break guard or get hit and most openers if dodged will get a free GB but they are still considered an opener.

The_B0G_
06-14-2018, 07:49 PM
Warlord headbutt is not an opener. A passive player will dodge it, which will get you guard broken.

I'd say crashing charge mix up is more of an opener, because it can provoke a reaction. Cool cucumbers don't react in panic though, so it's not always that useful.

If you don't spam headbutts, WL's headbutt works a lot more often then you would think.

Fairemont
06-14-2018, 07:56 PM
This is more in line with my opinion. An opener imo is something that isn't easily defended against. Like rochi's unreactable 400ms in combo lights. The rest of his kit is built to let him use those very often. Meaning it's pretty difficult to just block everything from him. with Bushi she needs a lot tbh. She needs more access to hidden stance (like being able to use it mid combo from a soft feint or something,) faster in combo and neutral lights, etc.

I've studied a whole lot of Nobushi, from move charts, timings, combos, competitive for honor reddit rants about her and potential reworks and stuff. I've been putting a lot of what I've seen/learned into the Nobushi Buff thread floating about in general discussion.

Being able to hidden stance feint mid-combo is one thing that would make a huge difference to keeping her minimal combo-capability safe and add a huge mix-up to her, but also ensure that she doesn't get too powerful since it does cost a lot to use, especially if you use it in a combo. It would essentially cancel it and MAYBE give one more light poke or a sidewinder or something for that hard damage but leave her OOS or real close.

The_B0G_
06-14-2018, 08:04 PM
I've studied a whole lot of Nobushi, from move charts, timings, combos, competitive for honor reddit rants about her and potential reworks and stuff. I've been putting a lot of what I've seen/learned into the Nobushi Buff thread floating about in general discussion.

Being able to hidden stance feint mid-combo is one thing that would make a huge difference to keeping her minimal combo-capability safe and add a huge mix-up to her, but also ensure that she doesn't get too powerful since it does cost a lot to use, especially if you use it in a combo. It would essentially cancel it and MAYBE give one more light poke or a sidewinder or something for that hard damage but leave her OOS or real close.

As far as nobushi goes, she can light attack from out of range, unless you're on PC I can't see anyone parrying it. How is that not a safe attack? Even if it's blocked, you're still out of range to get attacked. Try again. I only played as her twice so correct me if I'm wrong, I did good and got 9-2 on my first game as her with just light attacks and heavy feinting.

I think oddly timed single lights are underestimated as an attack plan for turtles.

Knight_Raime
06-14-2018, 09:50 PM
for me an opener is to open up a turtle and break his guard, kensei hilt bash, warden SB, WL Headbutt basically a unblockable push/shove etc not an attack just a move that opens them up for an attack. I think every hero should have a neutral opener not that guarantees damage just something to break the guard and allows the possibility of dmg.

I don't really agree with giving everyone an unblockable from neutral. Even if they didn't guarantee damage it still is bypassing blocking as a viable strat. You're not addressing the turtle problem that way. You're ignoring it.

Knight_Raime
06-14-2018, 09:55 PM
I think we need a mod or a dev to come and explain what an opener is because then in that case no one is right because no one really knows.

I think the reason people don't see headbutt/kick from cent as openers is because it's a 1 dimensonal move that is just dodged. Dodged/blocked are considered the same thing in some discussions.


Yeah what he said. Gladiator punch, Shoulder bash, Hilt bash etc. Or an unblockable from neutral.

Shoulder bash confirms damage though. same with pommel strike. Glad is the only thing like what Stella was talking about. I still disagree about giving everyone one of those.

Fairemont
06-14-2018, 09:57 PM
I don't really agree with giving everyone an unblockable from neutral. Even if they didn't guarantee damage it still is bypassing blocking as a viable strat. You're not addressing the turtle problem that way. You're ignoring it.

Agreed. Unblockable is not the only opener option.

Knight_Raime
06-14-2018, 10:01 PM
I've studied a whole lot of Nobushi, from move charts, timings, combos, competitive for honor reddit rants about her and potential reworks and stuff. I've been putting a lot of what I've seen/learned into the Nobushi Buff thread floating about in general discussion.

Being able to hidden stance feint mid-combo is one thing that would make a huge difference to keeping her minimal combo-capability safe and add a huge mix-up to her, but also ensure that she doesn't get too powerful since it does cost a lot to use, especially if you use it in a combo. It would essentially cancel it and MAYBE give one more light poke or a sidewinder or something for that hard damage but leave her OOS or real close.

I was more referring to having hidden stance as a thing you can soft feint into combo. It still retaining everything you can do with it now. Though if that were a thing her stamina consumption on feint would have to go down. And her HS would have to be nerfed in some fashion. Maybe it finally gets brought in line with all other full blocks where you can't tech being GBed. Her combos need to be buffed as well. But more access to hidden stance in that fashion would let her be more aggressive. Which is her main problem at the moment.


As far as nobushi goes, she can light attack from out of range, unless you're on PC I can't see anyone parrying it. How is that not a safe attack? Even if it's blocked, you're still out of range to get attacked. Try again. I only played as her twice so correct me if I'm wrong, I did good and got 9-2 on my first game as her with just light attacks and heavy feinting.

I think oddly timed single lights are underestimated as an attack plan for turtles.

Range matters a lot less now. Many heros have her range. Even Shinobi can light as far as she can. I don't think anyone has her current reach of her back step light. But her normal lights? Absolutely. The only empty light technique she has is if someone tries to come in for a whiff punish then she can follow up with a delayed light from the opposite direction for double light bleed poke. But the timing/range is very strict on that and hard to do.

Fairemont
06-14-2018, 10:04 PM
I was more referring to having hidden stance as a thing you can soft feint into combo. It still retaining everything you can do with it now. Though if that were a thing her stamina consumption on feint would have to go down. And her HS would have to be nerfed in some fashion. Maybe it finally gets brought in line with all other full blocks where you can't tech being GBed. Her combos need to be buffed as well. But more access to hidden stance in that fashion would let her be more aggressive. Which is her main problem at the moment.



Range matters a lot less now. Many heros have her range. Even Shinobi can light as far as she can. I don't think anyone has her current reach of her back step light. But her normal lights? Absolutely. The only empty light technique she has is if someone tries to come in for a whiff punish then she can follow up with a delayed light from the opposite direction for double light bleed poke. But the timing/range is very strict on that and hard to do.

Do you mean her hidden stance cancel feint into a combo? That is doable... sort of?

Knight_Raime
06-14-2018, 10:08 PM
Do you mean her hidden stance cancel feint into a combo? That is doable... sort of?

Like lets say you were doing her triple light combo. Currently you can only hidden stance with the first light. What I want to see is that during her second and third light you can hidden stance. Essentially I want her to be able to hidden stance almost all if not all of her attacks (kick withstanding obviously) so she can break way from her combo structure to mix up and throw off the opponent. I'll link you a thread from the competitive subreddit for a rework for her.

I don't agree with everything they proposed. But they do a good job at identifying her issues and come up with a lot of changes i'd like to see: https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/8kd0cp/nobushi_problems_with_final_tweakrework/

Fairemont
06-14-2018, 10:23 PM
Like lets say you were doing her triple light combo. Currently you can only hidden stance with the first light. What I want to see is that during her second and third light you can hidden stance. Essentially I want her to be able to hidden stance almost all if not all of her attacks (kick withstanding obviously) so she can break way from her combo structure to mix up and throw off the opponent. I'll link you a thread from the competitive subreddit for a rework for her.

I don't agree with everything they proposed. But they do a good job at identifying her issues and come up with a lot of changes i'd like to see: https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/8kd0cp/nobushi_problems_with_final_tweakrework/

That is what I was saying, yes.

I would not mind seeing her generic combos feintable all the way through.

Knight_Raime
06-14-2018, 10:31 PM
That is what I was saying, yes.

I would not mind seeing her generic combos feintable all the way through.

Ah alright. My bad on the misunderstanding on your first reply to me then.

Fairemont
06-14-2018, 10:38 PM
Perhaps!

I would love seeing her light dodge attack become a bit more relevant. Not sure how it would work, but perhaps being able to launch it out of hidden stance with a different timing than her traditional light would make a difference. Give her that bit of a mix-up.

The_B0G_
06-14-2018, 10:39 PM
@Knight_Raime Same range between Shinobi and Nobushi lights? I wouldn't have thought. I never have an issue with Shinobi, but Nobushi always gives me issues closing in to an effective range to land a hit. I usually have to dodge or block at least 2 hits before I close.

High-Horse
06-14-2018, 11:06 PM
I think the reason people don't see headbutt/kick from cent as openers is because it's a 1 dimensonal move that is just dodged. Dodged/blocked are considered the same thing in some discussions.

I don't think dodging and blocking are the same in every instance. I would grant that dodging a melee attack that can't be canceled, like headbutt and legion kick, is kind of passive, but essentially I believe openers are supposed to be a hard counter to turtling. Blocking is the most passive action you can take, and dodging at least makes you a little vulnerable compared to blocking. Openers should force a reaction besides Blocking, and sometimes that's dodging, and so an opener that forces a dodge could have some options.

Glad's Skewer would be a good example of what I'd call an opener without it being accessible from neutral (all you gotta do is backstep and whiff an attack). It can force either a parry or dodge, which you can feint and parry/deflect the attempt or GB their dodge. Same with Zerker's chained top heavy.

Orochi's storm rush isn't a great opener because it's possible to block it every time. The kit should focus on "baiting" openers, where there's lots of cancels like Shaman to trick the opponent into reacting and punishing the reaction. I think 1 unblockable somewhere in the kit that doesn't require the opponent to do anything is what cracks turtles.

The less aggressive the hero is, the harder it should be to reach those unblockables, but it isn't always the case. That's why I think Lawbringer's Block Shove seems so powerful for the effort required to pull it off: all they gotta do is block. I Do like that it doesn't guarantee anything, but it shouldn't be as accessible as it is. Same with Orochi being a counterattacker, they should have access to an unblockable outside deflect but it should be deeper than Block Shove.

edit:typo

Fairemont
06-14-2018, 11:35 PM
@Knight_Raime Same range between Shinobi and Nobushi lights? I wouldn't have thought. I never have an issue with Shinobi, but Nobushi always gives me issues closing in to an effective range to land a hit. I usually have to dodge or block at least 2 hits before I close.

Shinobi moves forward really far on lights.

Knight_Raime
06-15-2018, 12:06 AM
@Knight_Raime Same range between Shinobi and Nobushi lights? I wouldn't have thought. I never have an issue with Shinobi, but Nobushi always gives me issues closing in to an effective range to land a hit. I usually have to dodge or block at least 2 hits before I close.

Who do you play as? And yes. Shinobi's lights have the same range as bushi's standard lights. most heros do because they normalized the ranges around the time they fixed punishes on parries because "long range parries" were a thing.

Knight_Raime
06-15-2018, 12:23 AM
I don't think dodging and blocking are the same in every instance. I would grant that dodging a melee attack that can't be canceled, like headbutt and legion kick, is kind of passive, but essentially I believe openers are supposed to be a hard counter to turtling. Blocking is the most passive action you can take, and dodging at least makes you a little vulnerable compared to blocking. Openers should force a reaction besides Blocking, and sometimes that's dodging, and so an opener that forces a dodge could have some options.

Glad's Skewer would be a good example of what I'd call an opener without it being accessible from neutral (all you gotta do is backstep and whiff an attack). It can force either a parry or dodge, which you can feint and parry/deflect the attempt or GB their dodge. Same with Zerker's chained top heavy.

Orochi's storm rush isn't a great opener because it's possible to block it every time. The kit should focus on "baiting" openers, where there's lots of cancels like Shaman to trick the opponent into reacting and punishing the reaction. I think 1 unblockable somewhere in the kit that doesn't require the opponent to do anything is what cracks turtles.

The less aggressive the hero is, the harder it should be to reach those unblockables, but it isn't always the case. That's why I think Lawbringer's Block Shove seems so powerful for the effort required to pull it off: all they gotta do is block. I Do like that it doesn't guarantee anything, but it shouldn't be as accessible as it is. Same with Orochi being a counterattacker, they should have access to an unblockable outside deflect but it should be deeper than Block Shove.

edit:typo

In a group fight scenario dodging cent's kick or warlords headbutt does leave someone a little vulnerable. But not in a 1v1. Which for this discussion is what i'm mostly on about. As dueling someone is the basis of the entire game. Dodging is fine in an opening standpoint. So long as the person forcing the dodge can realistically punish them. As an example with Kensei's pommel strike. People are aware of it's existence and it's non existent tracking. So people might dodge on his top heavy indicator to avoid the potential of the pommel. But kensei can cancel into a GB or a side light. both of which will catch the dodge. So in that instance forcing a dodge is alright from an opener.

Both of those are indeed attacks. And the person they're attacking has time to punish them if they try to whiff into it. Or they can just stop the first action. Those are fine. I still wouldn't want every single hero to get an unblockable like that for that purpose. But i'd be "more" comfortable with that then giving everyone something akin to kensei's pommel strike.

In regards to Orochi's storm rush while it's possible to block every attack direction it's not likely because the indicator is hidden for the first portion of the attack. Which gives you very little time to react block. Even if you manage to react block you're going to have to defend from a follow up 400ms light. (admittingly it's bugged right now and is always buffered) but it's still not easy to block for everyone.

I don't believe every hero needs to crack a turtle. Hero kits should be homogenized to some extent (like dodge recoveries, ability to punish, etc) Something like this is a bit too far. It would be better at that point to simply create a whole seperate move that does the function. Orochi is a counter attacker. Not a turtle cracker. Giving him an option to do so just makes his kit less unique. And would force the devs to be more restricted balancing wise since everyone can ignore defensive play at that point. Seperate move or not. This is the issue with giving everyone the ability to crack someone open. You're not actually addressing turtling. You're just ignoring it.

To go off on a slight tangent The reason turtling (both blocking a lot and parrying) is so easy is because there is really only 3-4 speeds you need to memorize for the majority of the cast. Almost every light attack is 500ms as an example. This means once you've learned how to parry/block 500ms lights you can effectively do that against any hero with the same effectiveness. (indicators help this.) Buffered attacks actually make combos unviable since the moves are slower than they should be. And finally blocking ends most things in this game resetting the fight to neutral. Which slows the pacing of a fight. And makes heros who can avoid blocking throw the pace around even harder. The way the devs can fix this besides fixing the buffer issue is adding viable block strings (meaning mix ups/pressure on a blocked hit) and varied ms increments to attacks. These two changes means blocking everything becomes a lot harder. You'll have to learn the speeds of each hero. Not just one or two. and blocking the opening hit won't stop the pace of a fight. And the person blocking will have to become a bit better to be able to deal with what comes next.

Both additions and that one fix will nerf turtling heavily without invalidating blocking/defending as a mechanic. Where as giving everyone an unblockable bash/attack that's easy to access would. This was the point of my thread really. I keep trying to raise awareness on why that path would be bad. But people rarely seem to listen.

UbiJurassic
06-15-2018, 01:26 AM
Well this is certainly an interesting conversation topic. Personally, I've seen the term "opener" commonly associated with being an unblockable move, that normally deals no damage, that forces the opponent out of blocking and into a more vulnerable state for continued offensive actions.

Knight_Raime
06-15-2018, 01:31 AM
Well this is certainly an interesting conversation topic. Personally, I've seen the term "opener" commonly associated with being an unblockable move, that normally deals no damage, that forces the opponent out of blocking and into a more vulnerable state for continued offensive actions.

I appreciate that mods will take the time out of their days to come contribute to a topic. It's very cool.
As for your response this is how I see most people refer to it as well. But i've had some people correct me in a discussion with them elsewhere. So I thought i'd come ask people here what it means to them.

UbiJurassic
06-15-2018, 01:36 AM
I appreciate that mods will take the time out of their days to come contribute to a topic. It's very cool.
As for your response this is how I see most people refer to it as well. But i've had some people correct me in a discussion with them elsewhere. So I thought i'd come ask people here what it means to them.

I've always seen it as that and never really thought that there might be others who think of openers differently. Definitely an excellent topic to discuss. :D

Knight_Raime
06-15-2018, 01:37 AM
I've always seen it as that and never really thought that there might be others who think of openers differently. Definitely an excellent topic to discuss. :D

Yeah it's good to know what people mean!

BlowHard74728
06-15-2018, 02:06 AM
Personally ive never had much trouble with nobushi. To me she seems like she might be one of the hardest cast to learn due to her hidden stance. As of right now i think hidden stance is a bit of a joke it needs more.

More what i couldnt tell you ive only played her to rep 1

Tyrjo
06-15-2018, 07:26 AM
If you don't spam headbutts, WL's headbutt works a lot more often then you would think.

I know it works, it's not a bad move, it's good when used randomly. I have played Warlord a lot. I just don't think it's a great initiator vs a good turtle. The risk/reward is not in the Warlord favor.

Of course, sometimes I try opening with headbutt, but it becomes very clear quickly if your opponent knows what to expect. There are so many instances when you simply can't use it because it's too risky. Like near walls or against any hero which has a strong punish with a GB.

Jazz117Volkov
06-15-2018, 01:07 PM
I think an opener is whatever can, within reason, successfully and safely open a fight. Often that will be an opening tactic; not a single move but a sequence that consistently gets results. Which is something this game really needs to start acknowledging; the way stamina is handled, for example, it can make opening a fight actually quite punishing. A fast light attack can be an opener if you first bore your opponent with staring, but you'll probably get more mileage out of feinting some sort of unblockable. Example: Warden's shoulder bash feint is often as much of an opener as a committed shoulder bash.

There are no guaranteed openers though, not even close. We can learn a lot about "openers" from the level 3 bots. Especially the assassin's, I've noticed; they'll do a few key things; they'll spend most of the fight standing still, refusing to react to feints, and if they can help it, they'll never "open" the fight, because the AI understands that taking an action puts you at a disadvantage. The only way to defeat something like that is to beat it at its own game; sit and stare at it until it tries something.

There are no real openers; it's a relative term.



To go off on a slight tangent The reason turtling (both blocking a lot and parrying) is so easy is because there is really only 3-4 speeds you need to memorize for the majority of the cast. Almost every light attack is 500ms as an example. This means once you've learned how to parry/block 500ms lights you can effectively do that against any hero with the same effectiveness. (indicators help this.) Buffered attacks actually make combos unviable since the moves are slower than they should be. And finally blocking ends most things in this game resetting the fight to neutral. Which slows the pacing of a fight. And makes heros who can avoid blocking throw the pace around even harder. The way the devs can fix this besides fixing the buffer issue is adding viable block strings (meaning mix ups/pressure on a blocked hit) and varied ms increments to attacks. These two changes means blocking everything becomes a lot harder. You'll have to learn the speeds of each hero. Not just one or two. and blocking the opening hit won't stop the pace of a fight. And the person blocking will have to become a bit better to be able to deal with what comes next.I'm not so sure about this.

I see the point you're making, but I don't think changing an attacks speed from 400 to 450 will make any difference to the reaction required. I think reactions work more in thresholds than muscle memory. The more attentive you are, the more you're able to catch the faster attacks. I don't know about you, but I've never thought, "hey, this 500 ms light is slightly slower than that 400 ms light; I should wait a bit". I press the button the instant I see the indicator. I only start consciously waiting once the attack goes more than 600 ms. At that point muscle memory starts kicking in and it's like, okay, the Warden heavy is this much, the Raider heavy is like half a beat more, and so on.

I think if 50 or 25 ms do create a difference in parry timing, it'll read like the game glitching more than anything else. Human's just can't read into increments of time that small. We need about 200 or 300 to properly react to something, which tells me to have a noticeable effect on gameplay, attack times would need to be varied by about 200 or 300 ms, at which point you're already beyond the far ends of acceptable light attack speeds.

The_B0G_
06-15-2018, 02:31 PM
Who do you play as? And yes. Shinobi's lights have the same range as bushi's standard lights. most heros do because they normalized the ranges around the time they fixed punishes on parries because "long range parries" were a thing.

Honestly I've been playing everyone lately, trying to find a solution to the light spam meta, certain heroes she is not issue at all, others she is a pain.

DrinkinMyStella
06-15-2018, 03:06 PM
Well this is certainly an interesting conversation topic. Personally, I've seen the term "opener" commonly associated with being an unblockable move, that normally deals no damage, that forces the opponent out of blocking and into a more vulnerable state for continued offensive actions.

thank you for clearing this up and confirming what I originally said

Knight_Raime
06-15-2018, 04:46 PM
I think an opener is whatever can, within reason, successfully and safely open a fight. Often that will be an opening tactic; not a single move but a sequence that consistently gets results. Which is something this game really needs to start acknowledging; the way stamina is handled, for example, it can make opening a fight actually quite punishing. A fast light attack can be an opener if you first bore your opponent with staring, but you'll probably get more mileage out of feinting some sort of unblockable. Example: Warden's shoulder bash feint is often as much of an opener as a committed shoulder bash.

There are no guaranteed openers though, not even close. We can learn a lot about "openers" from the level 3 bots. Especially the assassin's, I've noticed; they'll do a few key things; they'll spend most of the fight standing still, refusing to react to feints, and if they can help it, they'll never "open" the fight, because the AI understands that taking an action puts you at a disadvantage. The only way to defeat something like that is to beat it at its own game; sit and stare at it until it tries something.

There are no real openers; it's a relative term.

I'm not so sure about this.

I see the point you're making, but I don't think changing an attacks speed from 400 to 450 will make any difference to the reaction required. I think reactions work more in thresholds than muscle memory. The more attentive you are, the more you're able to catch the faster attacks. I don't know about you, but I've never thought, "hey, this 500 ms light is slightly slower than that 400 ms light; I should wait a bit". I press the button the instant I see the indicator. I only start consciously waiting once the attack goes more than 600 ms. At that point muscle memory starts kicking in and it's like, okay, the Warden heavy is this much, the Raider heavy is like half a beat more, and so on.

I think if 50 or 25 ms do create a difference in parry timing, it'll read like the game glitching more than anything else. Human's just can't read into increments of time that small. We need about 200 or 300 to properly react to something, which tells me to have a noticeable effect on gameplay, attack times would need to be varied by about 200 or 300 ms, at which point you're already beyond the far ends of acceptable light attack speeds.

I agree that opener is a flexible term. Not just one specific type of attack. I disagree with your bot evidence. Bots have inhuman reflexes and consistency. They also don't play like actual players do. There is a reason why bots are never brought up in serious balancing discussion.

And i'm afraid that's where you're wrong. Varied ms increments is exactly why blocking attacks in other fighters is difficult. Everything was forced into a 100ms increment in this game which is very uncharacteristic of a fighter. Varied ms increments would have a huge impact. I mean the latency they added is 33ms. or essentially one frame difference and it made a huge deal. Things became a lot more consistent. To further hammer this point home lets look at a standard 400ms attack..Say pk's follow up second light. when that comes out buffered it's about 467ms ish. Because buffering makes it slower. And you add the frame of latency that's added to every attack. That's how we get that speed. That's almost 500ms. Which most people are used to. So it gets blocked rather often.

Now lets take that same attack and delay it as much as possible. That brings the attack to about 347ms ish. With delaying you're removing the buffered ms that makes the attack slower. But you still have to add the 33ms delay that's added to all attacks from the latency system. This is the true speed of the attack. And it also happens to make the attack not reactable. These kinds of 400ms attacks have to be dealt with based on prediction. You're vastly simplifying the situation because you're ignorant to it. I'm not saying it's impossible for people get back to the point where they will be able to block everything again. I am saying by forcing people to re learn speeds on a per character basis it's going to be more difficult to block in general.

If a single frame addition with latency can have such a profound effect on how people perceive and feel the game then varied ms increments will absolutely make a big difference. This is undeniable fact. Also it would not make the indicators glitchy or make animations look glitchy. Indicators bugging out in the past has been due to double attacks being registered and when you do 2 different attacks in the same small window causing a flicker. Both of which have been fixed. Animation wise those don't get messy unless an attack gets drastically faster. Which only really happens when a connection issue is afoot.

Knight_Raime
06-15-2018, 04:48 PM
Honestly I've been playing everyone lately, trying to find a solution to the light spam meta, certain heroes she is not issue at all, others she is a pain.

Well who would you consider to be your main? or who do you have the most play time with?

The_B0G_
06-15-2018, 07:21 PM
Well who would you consider to be your main? or who do you have the most play time with?

I been playing warlord a lot lately hes rep 8, I have a Rep 25 LB, rep 18 HL, Rep 15 kensei but I haven't used him since the rework. Like I said, no real main right now, jumping around to everyone trying to find someone who can counter the light spam.

As far as Nobushi goes, I have no problems with her with my warlord.

Knight_Raime
06-15-2018, 07:27 PM
I been playing warlord a lot lately hes rep 8, I have a Rep 25 LB, rep 18 HL, Rep 15 kensei but I haven't used him since the rework. Like I said, no real main right now, jumping around to everyone trying to find someone who can counter the light spam.

As far as Nobushi goes, I have no problems with her with my warlord.

Got any tips for someone trying to pick up WL?
hmm. it's really weird for me to hear someone struggle against a bushi. at all.
Not sure how to help you with light spam though. For me if i'm on a hero with a standard guard spam doesn't get through. if i'm an assassin and I play patient it doesn't really get me.

The_B0G_
06-15-2018, 07:55 PM
Got any tips for someone trying to pick up WL?
hmm. it's really weird for me to hear someone struggle against a bushi. at all.
Not sure how to help you with light spam though. For me if i'm on a hero with a standard guard spam doesn't get through. if i'm an assassin and I play patient it doesn't really get me.

My internet is a small step above dial up lol probably some of my problem with the light spam.

Once I get inside on Nobushi she isn't a problem, just closing the gap can be difficult sometimes with certain characters, like LB or warden, without a parry on a light attack anyway.

As far as pointers for Warlord starting off, when throwing heavys alway feint the first one, if you follow it with an immediate heavy after the feint, you catch a lot of people trying to parry, even if their heavy hits you first, you have hyper armor. Switch that second heavy up with either a zone or or gb or full block to keep them guessing.

Headbutt works very well if it's not over used. If your enemy is being passive and defensive, use single light attacks, mixed with a head butt or zone every now and again.

Dash forward heavy should never be used as an opener or to close in on an enemy, unless you are out of range and purposefully whiff, follow with headbutt and then light attack. Only use forward dash heavy while up close besides that. I catch people a lot when using slow telegraphed moves, like shoulder bash or other slow unblockable moves, it also has hyper armor.

Knight_Raime
06-15-2018, 08:06 PM
My internet is a small step above dial up lol probably some of my problem with the light spam.

Once I get inside on Nobushi she isn't a problem, just closing the gap can be difficult sometimes with certain characters, like LB or warden, without a parry on a light attack anyway.

As far as pointers for Warlord starting off, when throwing heavys alway feint the first one, if you follow it with an immediate heavy after the feint, you catch a lot of people trying to parry, even if their heavy hits you first, you have hyper armor. Switch that second heavy up with either a zone or or gb or full block to keep them guessing.

Headbutt works very well if it's not over used. If your enemy is being passive and defensive, use single light attacks, mixed with a head butt or zone every now and again.

Dash forward heavy should never be used as an opener or to close in on an enemy, unless you are out of range and purposefully whiff, follow with headbutt and then light attack. Only use forward dash heavy while up close besides that. I catch people a lot when using slow telegraphed moves, like shoulder bash or other slow unblockable moves, it also has hyper armor.

Nice thanks. So far how I use him is sprinkling in head butt every now and then. Using zone on a whiff punish/bait. and timing my full block to throw that heavy out on time. But also to delay the heavy out of it to catch them doing some action. I was struggling to use his armored hits though.

Jazz117Volkov
06-16-2018, 12:14 AM
I agree that opener is a flexible term. Not just one specific type of attack. I disagree with your bot evidence. Bots have inhuman reflexes and consistency. They also don't play like actual players do. There is a reason why bots are never brought up in serious balancing discussion.

I don't think its a point that needs disagreeing with, I'm not arguing balance, I'm drawing attention to the nature of the game. Bots are like looking at the mechanics under a magnifying glass. The actual point I was making is most of the gameplay and most of your success as a player is behaviour related, not mechanics, or the math of the mechanics, if you will.


And i'm afraid that's where you're wrong...Like I said, I see the point you're making. I'm just not sure how it will play in the long run. I'm concerned it will feel awkward and glitchy because before the lag comp it was awkward and glitchy. I think after a threshold it's only about how focused you are; I've played 2D fighters a bit, and I'm never thinking about the speed of a fast attack, I only care that it's fast.

Call me a skeptic, but I'll be happy to be wrong.

MarshalMoriarty
06-16-2018, 06:27 AM
I agree with the sentiment that an opener is anything that you feel you can throw out with a reasonable expectation of either getting a hit and\or at least starting your offence with little risk against the average player you meet match after match. Unblockables, Hyper Armor attacks that aren't extremely slow, any fast attack that has potential follow up hits or moves etc.

Nothing is ever 100% but there's a reason Aras tend to open with the running side dash, Orochis with their light spam (and Kiai of course), Lawbros with shove, Kensei Headsplitter or side dash into finisher mix up etc etc. Because in any given match, against any given opponent, it has about a good a chance of working as you could ask for. Doesn't work all the time, but it does enough of the time.

filwilliamson
07-07-2018, 04:11 PM
For me openers involve any abilities that force a reaction that isn't blocking. For me this involves unblockables and bashes. Unblockables force them to dodge or attempt a parry and if you can predict what they will do then you can counter. Bashes force the enemy to dodge and generally speaking they guarantee some damage even if it is only a little damage. I would say that bashes are the easier openers as you don't need to predict what the enemy will attempt to do (unlike unblockables), you can just do it. To continue the idea of bashes I think bashes should guarantee you some damage, as missing one can lead to getting hit by a guardbreak, bash, dodge attack. Unless if they are meant to be a disengage (as I think Tiandi's Dragon Kick will probably be used). It also feels like Unblockables are the weaker opener, as most people will sit there, confident in the knowledge that you will probably feint the attack and if you don't they can probably parry it on reaction.