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View Full Version : Deathballing and groups - is it really to do with tier?



CandleInTheDark
06-13-2018, 07:30 PM
I posted this in a suggestion board thread on deathballing, I thought I would bring it here for discussion.

Ok, so recently I joined a group of players on the forum. Three of us went in today and had three matches, one on sanctuary bridge which is one of the most deathball friendly maps and two on beachhead against a team that was set on deathballing and I suspect also grouped.

Going to go with the latter two, I can't recall if the teams switched between the first and second, they were set on going around as a four, once we realised this in the first one we were able to rotate zones, we also realised that they were not going into the soldier zone at all, we won that game after being in breaking a few times because one of us, even when people were falling, knew where the free zone was.

The second game we knew what was coming, one of us took the solder zone, the other two worked around what the last member of our team was doing and where we observed the deathball to be, we went 500-25 up at the start and I believe they wound up on around 500 points at the end of it.

So it is doable on smaller maps with a but, we did it because we were communicating, this isn't a high tier thing, it isn't necessarily a low tier thing which the devs are looking at currently either, it is a communication thing and yeah not having grouped up before, I can certainly see now where a lot of people who have been saying don't group pug against groups if possible (through matchmaking only relaxing in that when needed maybe?) have been coming from, we might have dealt with it as four single players if we were all reading the situation well, but it was a lot easier with there having been three of us communicating. Here is the thing though, while if you have friends with mics play with them is good advice, that isn't feasible for everyone or for those that do all the time.

Halvtand
06-13-2018, 08:36 PM
Being one of the three musketeers in this story I thought I'd fill you in on what I was doing to clarify our strategy.

I don't really recall much of the first match, the one on the bridge. I had to take a call in the middle of the game and so was not as focused as I should've been. I could not hear my two companions and they could not hear me. What I do remember is staying between the zone closest to our spawn and the minion point (B). From there I could easily slay minions to keep the point of fall back to stop the odd covert capturing attempt. I also knew that I really didn't have to go all out defending, but rather hold out until my two comrades noticed that I was holding someone off and sent help. As I was trying out a new hero this helped a lot.

Second and third fight was on beachhead. Both times we came in from the water. We spread out immediately to claim all zones as soon as possible. I went to C and did all I could to keep the enemy from taking it, no matter if they came alone or all four. This opposition bought my team time to capture A (which the enemies were running from) and/or come to my aid. Even when all four was at C, I kept going there, just to keep the pressure up. Even if I stood still below the ladder they could see me and knew that as soon as they stepped away I'd go in ad capture the zone. Once or twice i did a Leroy Jenkins, but that kind of tactic proved ineffective against a deathball pretty quickly.
I never really left C as it seemed to be the favoured zone of our enemies, and so needed constant vigilance. A was taken a few times, but a lot of the times the guy there came to C to help out.
Spreading our resources meant that we got a great view of the battlefield. We could see where the enemy was going and communication through voip meant that we didn't have to rely on pinging each other or use the built in quick-chat.

With this in mind it is important to note that we have not been playing together for long. We still make mistakes, get in each other's way and screw up. We don't build grand strategies or actually talk that much because we're focused on playing the game and fighting whoever is in front of us. We could however give each other a heads up about where the enemy was going and how many of them there were.
I'm an old Conq-main, and I know I've spent hours standing on C on Citadel gate, looking out over the battlefield trying to use the quick-chat to direct my teammates around based on what I can see and failing because when you queue pub it's every man for himself. Having a team like this makes all the difference, and being able to actually talk makes manoeuvring so much easier. Tier or skill level of players doesn't really factor in much. The death ball is an effective strategy against pubs because they can't or won't coordinate. All it took to counter was a little coordination, stuff like "three coming to C" or "All clear on my end" meant that we could move around the ball of death, pick our battlefield and the right time to strike.

BTTrinity
06-13-2018, 11:03 PM
I was pretty tired this morning, as I played with them when I first woke up but as the third person of the group.... I was running around between each point on Sanctuary bridge going where I was needed in each fight cuz speed revives... I mainly focused the enemy spawn point though to pressure them while the rest of the team kept our other objectives secured.

On the first beach-head match I was focusing on minion point and group fights with Wardens bombs and minion killing feat, so the point stayed ours (Enemy hardly tried to even go for it) I had a pretty easy time just bombing everyone to death.

The third match I dont remember much about cuz I was getting my arse kicked severely by this Zerker, I remember focusing on minion point with Nobushi and tried helping in group fights but Ill admit... I got carried pretty hard that game... I didnt contribute much, I do remember being bottom of the scoreboard :(

I've said it long ago, stop pairing grouped players against solo players.... Also group of 2 duo players does not equate a group of 4....

A group of 4, at minimum should have to fight against a group of 3.

Communication followed by small maps are the worst offenders of deathball, I dont have any issues with it when I play with these guys... But when I go against it in solo play, its an absolute nightmare.

I strongly encourage changing the capture system of zones in Dominion..... Playing strategically around capturing zones should be the primary way to play Dominion, otherwise with the ever-lasting deathball this game-mode is just a glorified Skirmish where you focus on killing 4 people while zones are an afterthought to just net you free points while fighting said people.

Leaving a capture zone, should result in the zone going neutral within 5-10 seconds.

Minions killing other minions should not grant free points, a player should have to kill minions in order to rack up the teams score.

This is a change I think would be very healthy for all tiers, regardless of how long it takes to do...

DrinkinMyStella
06-14-2018, 01:26 PM
I agree it most definitely is a communication thing and players like me who play solo not by choice but because i'm a loner on for honor, we suffer because how do I get my message across to my teammates who ignore my 'group up' command or my "help me at X' yes I can talk down my headset to players who are oblivious to me and still ignore me and most likely don't speak English (I get put a lot in foreign lobbies), I lose so many matches because of lack of communication its unreal. they need t cater for the solo players like make a non party playlist as well as the normal 4v4. There is no fun playing against a team who's sole purpose is to death ball. if I cant even get out of my spawn then I will just rage quit. Im an objective player, a big time team player, i'm always the one with the most caps, If I see a teammate getting ganked by 4 I will go and help even if I die, if my zone and b is capped I will try and flank and cap their zone rather than keep dying trying to cap my zone.

they need to:

-randomise spawns/flip spawns
-decrease respawn timer
-deduct points for dishonour
-zones turn neutral if no one jumps on it for a while like B

there are so many things that can be done but ubi are quite about it.

SpaceJim12
06-14-2018, 02:08 PM
Well, yes, as DrinkinMehStella said, what should solo players do?
I can see how my win rate goes up, when I played with my friends. We were full 4 party in season 3, so we have NO troubles with Deathball at all. But one of my friend drop the game, other goes to one year trip and now I could play solo or with my friend. And I can't help situations, when we fighting 2v4 on zone C, and our two teammates can't capture zone A for any reason.

Don't forget about bots. Last weekend I have match, where our Warden loose in 2v1 in first two minutes, wrote down in chat "obvious loose" and left. Our Orochi stand his chance for one more minute and left too. So we played 2 players+2bots vs. 4 players until the end. Aaand...guess what? "Obvious loose"!

CandleInTheDark
06-14-2018, 02:18 PM
Honestly I don't think that people should be penalised for xv1, it's a valid strategy, the issue is that it can't be punished as it can be in other games. By the breach description I am very much hoping that that blows up in population because it seems objectives are more important and that is the thing with dominion right now, it isn't as important to the game.

Bots is certainly an issue though, yeah, and I had a good idea this was going to happen when they removed the quit penalty, rage quits certainly went up a good way because of it. And yeah I do agree that not everyone can play with friends as I said, the thing is if the devs are looking at can we do something in low tier without affecting high tier I think they are looking in the wrong place, I am not suddenly high tier just because I am playing with two or three I am communicating with.

DrinkinMyStella
06-14-2018, 02:31 PM
Honestly I don't think that people should be penalised for xv1, it's a valid strategy, the issue is that it can't be punished as it can be in other games. By the breach description I am very much hoping that that blows up in population because it seems objectives are more important and that is the thing with dominion right now, it isn't as important to the game.

Bots is certainly an issue though, yeah, and I had a good idea this was going to happen when they removed the quit penalty, rage quits certainly went up a good way because of it. And yeah I do agree that not everyone can play with friends as I said, the thing is if the devs are looking at can we do something in low tier without affecting high tier I think they are looking in the wrong place, I am not suddenly high tier just because I am playing with two or three I am communicating with.

yes and I agree that it doesn't make you high/low tier win your in a party it just means you have the upper hand in communication. You could be the number 1 duelist in the game but not perform very well in 4v4. 4v4 (dominion) to me is not a skill based game mode its a strategic mode. I would like to think that i'm slightly above the average player in dominion not because i can gank or can 1v1 etc but because I play the objective and go for the win. So really your skill doesn't have anything to do with deathballing, its about team work and for solo players that's doesn't help me feel good playing against a party. Also what I meant by penalise deathaballing is the same as what they did in elimination and skirmish is deduct points for dishonour.

also I wouldn't say ganking is a strategy because most people who see a fight going on won't stop and say 'right i'm going to leave them to it because there are fighting in the middle of no where so ill cap A while there fighting' most just gank for no strategic reason just for an assist kill, i'll only join a gank if it means capturing a zone don't get me wrong I don't want to see a brother die but I want the TEAM to win.

SpaceJim12
06-14-2018, 03:25 PM
Honestly I don't think that people should be penalised for xv1, it's a valid strategy, the issue is that it can't be punished as it can be in other games. By the breach description I am very much hoping that that blows up in population because it seems objectives are more important and that is the thing with dominion right now, it isn't as important to the game.

No, I'm ok with 1vX situation. In season 2-3 I even enjoed them. But nowadays, you a) can't stand proper against 3-4 opponents cause of all unblockables, bashes, stun etc. b) have no advantage of this, I died just to add more personal points for deathball, nothing more and c) I see no sense to play objectives, cause if you deathballing people you will capture zone anyway
And I have some concern about Breach, but still hope it will change everything. And when you stand 1vX there, you will buy time and even win for your teammates.

CandleInTheDark
06-14-2018, 03:35 PM
yes and I agree that it doesn't make you high/low tier win your in a party it just means you have the upper hand in communication. You could be the number 1 duelist in the game but not perform very well in 4v4. 4v4 (dominion) to me is not a skill based game mode its a strategic mode. I would like to think that i'm slightly above the average player in dominion not because i can gank or can 1v1 etc but because I play the objective and go for the win. So really your skill doesn't have anything to do with deathballing, its about team work and for solo players that's doesn't help me feel good playing against a party. Also what I meant by penalise deathaballing is the same as what they did in elimination and skirmish is deduct points for dishonour.

also I wouldn't say ganking is a strategy because most people who see a fight going on won't stop and say 'right i'm going to leave them to it because there are fighting in the middle of no where so ill cap A while there fighting' most just gank for no strategic reason just for an assist kill, i'll only join a gank if it means capturing a zone don't get me wrong I don't want to see a brother die but I want the TEAM to win.

What I mean by ganking as a strategy is if you look at other games, say League of Legends, you're going to lose 5v1 most if not every time, that is basic math, but those four zones you've left open the other players are making huge gains and this is why there isn't a deathball problem in that game, people applaud a well pulled off gank that got them an objective where they were going for without losing too much elsewhere. The issues currently here are deathballs against teams not communicating (like I said in my post, knowing we faced a deathball and where they favoured from the last game we went 500-25 up at one point) and that it is difficult for anyone not in a group to communicate. Also that neglecting the objectives does not give a long term drawback as it does in other games.


No, I'm ok with 1vX situation. In season 2-3 I even enjoed them. But nowadays, you a) can't stand proper against 3-4 opponents cause of all unblockables, bashes, stun etc. b) have no advantage of this, I died just to add more personal points for deathball, nothing more and c) I see no sense to play objectives, cause if you deathballing people you will capture zone anyway
And I have some concern about Breach, but still hope it will change everything. And when you stand 1vX there, you will buy time and even win for your teammates.

Yeah I play pretty much the same way Drinkinmehstella said when I am solo, if I see a 3v4, I go run around the other areas and hope I make a difference rather than face 4v1 and lose it all later, with communication it is a different game as we are able to call where the deathball is, I remember "hmm two people on a...no, three, four, screw it not going there" and we cleaned up everywhere else and came back when some of them had to split or they moved somewhere else, also where there were 2v3 and it was called in enough time for someone else to get there, but again that was because we had the easy communication.

ArmoredChocobo
06-14-2018, 04:42 PM
Being one of the three musketeers in this story I thought I'd fill you in on what I was doing to clarify our strategy.

I don't really recall much of the first match, the one on the bridge. I had to take a call in the middle of the game and so was not as focused as I should've been. I could not hear my two companions and they could not hear me. What I do remember is staying between the zone closest to our spawn and the minion point (B). From there I could easily slay minions to keep the point of fall back to stop the odd covert capturing attempt. I also knew that I really didn't have to go all out defending, but rather hold out until my two comrades noticed that I was holding someone off and sent help. As I was trying out a new hero this helped a lot.

Second and third fight was on beachhead. Both times we came in from the water. We spread out immediately to claim all zones as soon as possible. I went to C and did all I could to keep the enemy from taking it, no matter if they came alone or all four. This opposition bought my team time to capture A (which the enemies were running from) and/or come to my aid. Even when all four was at C, I kept going there, just to keep the pressure up. Even if I stood still below the ladder they could see me and knew that as soon as they stepped away I'd go in ad capture the zone. Once or twice i did a Leroy Jenkins, but that kind of tactic proved ineffective against a deathball pretty quickly.
I never really left C as it seemed to be the favoured zone of our enemies, and so needed constant vigilance. A was taken a few times, but a lot of the times the guy there came to C to help out.
Spreading our resources meant that we got a great view of the battlefield. We could see where the enemy was going and communication through voip meant that we didn't have to rely on pinging each other or use the built in quick-chat.

With this in mind it is important to note that we have not been playing together for long. We still make mistakes, get in each other's way and screw up. We don't build grand strategies or actually talk that much because we're focused on playing the game and fighting whoever is in front of us. We could however give each other a heads up about where the enemy was going and how many of them there were.
I'm an old Conq-main, and I know I've spent hours standing on C on Citadel gate, looking out over the battlefield trying to use the quick-chat to direct my teammates around based on what I can see and failing because when you queue pub it's every man for himself. Having a team like this makes all the difference, and being able to actually talk makes manoeuvring so much easier. Tier or skill level of players doesn't really factor in much. The death ball is an effective strategy against pubs because they can't or won't coordinate. All it took to counter was a little coordination, stuff like "three coming to C" or "All clear on my end" meant that we could move around the ball of death, pick our battlefield and the right time to strike.

Too bad Ubi disabled text chat so feelings wouldn’t get hurt.

DrinkinMyStella
06-14-2018, 04:45 PM
I want text chat for console, Idc about people being salty in fact it will be more entertaining for me I just want to be able to freely talk to my team which them being able to respond.

NHLGoldenKnight
06-14-2018, 06:51 PM
Nothing new in gaming world. I remember being only survivor on my team in COD 4 and having to face 8 guys on the other side. Luck or skill, I won many fights in those situations.

For Honor is different in a way that is a contact sport. Who have to face your opponent directly if you want to win. And that is where Ubisoft did make mistakes.

1. Faster lights, unblockables and cheesy GB doesn't help. Ganking was less of an issue before Ubisoft decided to speed up a game. Console is more of an issue than PC, I guess. Before, I was able to stand my ground vs 2 or even 3 opponents. I would maybe even die at the end, but they would have to work for it. Now? It is almost impossible to survive 2 vs 1 not to mention 3vs 1. Half of the lights are near impossible to react to and adding so many unblockables makes whole experience a nightmare. Vs multiple players, I couldn't last more than 5 to 7 sec, compared to pre last December, where I could even win on occasion.

2. Hero selection. Ubisoft mistake again. Almost every competitive online game has limit on character selection which is based on classes. One thing common for majority of organized groups is that they tend to use unbalanced roster. So for example, usually it is a team of Centurions, Shamans and Berserkers mixed up. There some other heroes as well but main point is that is much harder to play agains orginized team of assasins than it is to play against balanced team. All things being equal. So , for game to be fair and competitive, only 1 hero from each class should be allowed. First come, first served.

3. Salt on a wound emote, really Ubisoft?

I know that no one will agree with my points, but I expect that. Majority of players are try hard death squad members already, and based on percentage of those type of players in game, I can assume that similar percentage of them is here as well. Which is why we can throw logic and common sense out of window and continue convincing others how very well balanced game do we have. Not.

CandleInTheDark
06-14-2018, 07:09 PM
Nothing new in gaming world. I remember being only survivor on my team in COD 4 and having to face 8 guys on the other side. Luck or skill, I won many fights in those situations.

For Honor is different in a way that is a contact sport. Who have to face your opponent directly if you want to win. And that is where Ubisoft did make mistakes.

1. Faster lights, unblockables and cheesy GB doesn't help. Ganking was less of an issue before Ubisoft decided to speed up a game. Console is more of an issue than PC, I guess. Before, I was able to stand my ground vs 2 or even 3 opponents. I would maybe even die at the end, but they would have to work for it. Now? It is almost impossible to survive 2 vs 1 not to mention 3vs 1. Half of the lights are near impossible to react to and adding so many unblockables makes whole experience a nightmare. Vs multiple players, I couldn't last more than 5 to 7 sec, compared to pre last December, where I could even win on occasion.

2. Hero selection. Ubisoft mistake again. Almost every competitive online game has limit on character selection which is based on classes. One thing common for majority of organized groups is that they tend to use unbalanced roster. So for example, usually it is a team of Centurions, Shamans and Berserkers mixed up. There some other heroes as well but main point is that is much harder to play agains orginized team of assasins than it is to play against balanced team. All things being equal. So , for game to be fair and competitive, only 1 hero from each class should be allowed. First come, first served.

3. Salt on a wound emote, really Ubisoft?

I know that no one will agree with my points, but I expect that. Majority of players are try hard death squad members already, and based on percentage of those type of players in game, I can assume that similar percentage of them is here as well. Which is why we can throw logic and common sense out of window and continue convincing others how very well balanced game do we have. Not.

Ok so in terms of one, I can stand my ground for about half minute against three on a good day, and I am not saying this as one often in them, I am often the one in that situation because I actually boost zone. That is anecdotal sure, and on bad days I last about five seconds, but a bunch of this is about communication which is often lacking.

Here is the thing with two, as long as there are gear stats and matchmaking takes place before character selection this should never happen. The game is already growing more inaccessible to newcomers, at game start, top tier gear was three rep points away, now it is seven, arguably nine with two refinements. I took a character I just started levelling (which in fairness is most of them now, I switched platform) and came up against a raider doing over 80 on its zone. Asking players to grind once to rep 7 is bad enough, saying until they do it four times they may be underpowered because someone beat them to their character is not a thing I think the devs should do. For the record I would like matches with eight different characters (including different gender as a different character) now that they have names and backgrounds being worked on but that should not happen with the current matchmaking.

Salt in the wound, yeah kind of agree.

Also, maybe check your attitude? No one involved with this thread is saying we want to see deathballs and we are trying to help figure ways around it, coming into a debate assuming the worst about the people in it is not debating in an honest way nor is it going to get anywhere.

Halvtand
06-14-2018, 07:58 PM
Too bad Ubi disabled text chat so feelings wouldn’t get hurt.

I want text chat for console, Idc about people being salty in fact it will be more entertaining for me I just want to be able to freely talk to my team which them being able to respond.

Feelings aside, I was more than a bit disappointed that they switched chat to off as default.That chat is the only chance at communication that most pubs get and as we've said several times in this thread already - communication is key. Yes, some people used it in an abusive manner and some were downright ********s, but sitching the chat off was a pretty bad idea as it did more harm than good i believe. With that said you can swich your chat on again either by pressing F9 during the game or just switch the default mode back to group or open again. That does however mean that you need to go into the options and dig around, which I guess some people doesn't like to do for no reason.

The_B0G_
06-14-2018, 08:18 PM
Honestly I don't think that people should be penalised for xv1, it's a valid strategy, the issue is that it can't be punished as it can be in other games. By the breach description I am very much hoping that that blows up in population because it seems objectives are more important and that is the thing with dominion right now, it isn't as important to the game.

Bots is certainly an issue though, yeah, and I had a good idea this was going to happen when they removed the quit penalty, rage quits certainly went up a good way because of it. And yeah I do agree that not everyone can play with friends as I said, the thing is if the devs are looking at can we do something in low tier without affecting high tier I think they are looking in the wrong place, I am not suddenly high tier just because I am playing with two or three I am communicating with.

The only thing that concerns me about what I've seen for breach so far is that secondary objectives like archers can't be taken back, (correct me if I'm wrong) once the point is lost, it's attacker territory, this seems like a design flaw to me, since a coordinated team can quickly deathball these positions at each stage and then head back and protect the ram.

Hopefully that isn't what happens.

CandleInTheDark
06-14-2018, 09:23 PM
The only thing that concerns me about what I've seen for breach so far is that secondary objectives like archers can't be taken back, (correct me if I'm wrong) once the point is lost, it's attacker territory, this seems like a design flaw to me, since a coordinated team can quickly deathball these positions at each stage and then head back and protect the ram.

Hopefully that isn't what happens.

That was what I believe I heard, yes, though in the final phase we saw defender take the archer positions. My hope would be that the general meaning was with them protecting it the defenders weren't going to take it.

Mind you, I do think the deathball isn't going to be so much a thing, so you have four around an area, that is target practice for the ballista and with 25 tickets and revives bringing you only to half health, that is not something you want to have happen too often if the rest of the defensive team are chipping away at you..

NHLGoldenKnight
06-14-2018, 11:28 PM
Ok so in terms of one, I can stand my ground for about half minute against three on a good day, and I am not saying this as one often in them, I am often the one in that situation because I actually boost zone. That is anecdotal sure, and on bad days I last about five seconds, but a bunch of this is about communication which is often lacking.

Here is the thing with two, as long as there are gear stats and matchmaking takes place before character selection this should never happen. The game is already growing more inaccessible to newcomers, at game start, top tier gear was three rep points away, now it is seven, arguably nine with two refinements. I took a character I just started levelling (which in fairness is most of them now, I switched platform) and came up against a raider doing over 80 on its zone. Asking players to grind once to rep 7 is bad enough, saying until they do it four times they may be underpowered because someone beat them to their character is not a thing I think the devs should do. For the record I would like matches with eight different characters (including different gender as a different character) now that they have names and backgrounds being worked on but that should not happen with the current matchmaking.

Salt in the wound, yeah kind of agree.

Also, maybe check your attitude? No one involved with this thread is saying we want to see deathballs and we are trying to help figure ways around it, coming into a debate assuming the worst about the people in it is not debating in an honest way nor is it going to get anywhere.

First to apologize if I sound like jerk, I am really not. Just frustrated with this game and player base who will alwayscome up with reason why nothing should change, just because they keep abusing broken system. Not to mention hundreds of salty messages and threats I have gotten over time which barely ever happened before, at least until I started playing For Honor lol

Here is my issue with class selection and why current setup doesn't work, not if you want gameplay to be fair.
In order not to bother new players to level up 4 heroes we should calmly accept the fact that we can face team of 4 assasins or 4 heavies in the game? I don't buy that excuse for 1 second. If you ever played vs 4 Shinobis, Shamans or almost any same 4 heroes ( or same class), then you can't tell me how is that balanced good enough to be fair and competitive at the same time. The fact that 4v4 modes are not locked for 1 hero per class is the largest problem this game has. And yet it is being completely ignored. Maybe it doesn't look like that, but having balanced team in size and speed would make huge impact on death squads because it would be much harder to move as a group and cover everything. If ganking team of assasins such as Shaman or Shinobi pressures you at your spawn point ( which is another serious issue) , it is very unlikely that your team can create enough space to go behind their back and capture a zone. Assasins can get to you fast, kill you and get back to your spawn before you even get to respawn. There is a good reason why 4v4 modes are dominated by assasin teams. It's damn too easy. Not just to gank and kill but to complete your objectives as well such as capturing zones.
If teams were balances and opponent's assasin gets caught up in a fight with let's say Vanguard, you would have much easier time going behind enemy lines and capturing a zone. But when you have to deal with 4 assasins, it is nearly impossible. I could talk about 4 Shugo teams who just stick together. Different play style, but equally annoying and completely unbalanced.