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GoatBandit
06-13-2018, 06:13 PM
Just making this thread to ask about where about my main man Shuga Sugar is on the rework priority list. While he is designed to be able to punish mistakes and control stamina, his playstyle just feels outdated in Season 6. There is a nice reddit thread discussing possible changes to Shugoki that I agree with:
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/7yk947/a_shugoki_rework_thread/

The creator of the Reddit thread is TickleMonsterCG

In case links aren't allowed I'll quote it here:

Character Adjustments

Recovery frames from attacks (Tweak) Overall reducing recovery times on certain attacks such as full charged heavy successful hit, Headbutt overall, and Demon's Embrace on successful use (kinda... you'll see what I'm talking about) . These have plagued shugoki since the beginning and certainly need reducing. Not to a point of not being unpunishable, but certainly doesn't need recovery frames longer than his opponent's hitstun.

Soft feint GB from during Heavy charging (Addition) This is more or less to stop opponents from 100% safely dodging out of charged heavy mixups.

Dodges (Tweak) No longer suffering from that 700ms pain, forward dodge is 500ms (from 600), side dodges are 600ms (from 700), and backwards dodge is 700ms (from 800ms) however shugoki will still move the same distance as before.

Passives

Superior Lights Untouched

Oni's stature (Tweak/Addition) Passive hyper armor has been removed, instead all heavies have hyper armor similar to Highlander's. Shugoki no longer takes extra damage when hyper armor is down. Shugoki does not receive melee immunity during these attacks. Shugoki also deals more base chip damage than other heroes at 25%.

Oni's revenge (Addition) When an opponent hits shugoki's Oni Stature, the attack becomes guaranteed (probably by speeding it up or becoming unblockable) and does 10 more damage than normal.

Chains

Both Bash and Smash and Bonechrusher's second heavy can now also be charged.

Charged Heavy Attack (Tweak)

Full charge heavies and normal heavies would still remain the same damage, but the full charge up timing would be only slightly longer than conqueror's full charge. While not being able to hard feint it at the unblockable stage, Shugoki will be able to soft feint into "Barbed Defense" (More later)

Charged Lights (Addition)

Instead of simply moving faster, the base damage is increased and shugoki's light can now be charged to deal more damage as follows 600ms 16 damage 800ms 20 damage. At 800ms the parry punish becomes a heavy punish rather than a light punish.

Added/Changed Melees

Headbutt (Tweak)

Headbutt can now be performed after a successful full charged heavy (including in combo charged heavies) as well as successful neutral lights and heavies. Not only to stop recovery frame shenanigans but to create spacing for using a stamina intensive attack.

Demon Ball (Tweak)

A useful spacemaker for shugoki, I wanted it to be a better punish but not better for the sake of it. Instead if an opponent contacts the wall they will take an additional 10 damage for a total of 35 (also fixes that awkward sliding heroes do). However in light of being able to smack a wall from miles away, the fling distance should be reduced to about half of Forest's dueling circle. (The overlook with a ruined wall)

Demon's Embrace (Tweak/Functionality change)

Instead of turning this into a usable in neutral move and having to tweak it's damage for balance sake, I decided to keep it the same. However I would remove it's functionality as a soft feint and neutral move, replacing it with "Barbed Defense" and changed it's usage after a normal throw to be like centurion's kick (dodgeable on missed wallstun); NOT like shaman's lunge however where it is guaranteed on ANY throw. It doesn't deal damage on miss however, instead I kept it's recovery high to let a GB go through on any dodge.

Oni's Kachi (Addition)

Property: Hyper armor with melee immunity

Input: Forward dodge + GB, activates 300ms into the dodge. Must be activated within that time frame. Is a 300ms attack. Cannot be delayed.

Guarantee: Nothing, acts as a chain starter meaning only a heavy attack can followup. Similar to Lawbringer's shove.

Barbed Defense (Addition)

Property: Hyper armor with melee immunity, but loses ability to guard and CGB

Input: Same as Fullblock/Hidden Stance

Effect: For 400ms, shugoki loses his ability to guard but gains his classic hyper 200ms into the animation. If shugoki's hyper is hit during the remaining 200ms, he goes into a guaranteed Demon's Embrace, similar to Conq's uppercut. I didn't want it to be a SMASH TO WIN which is why I delayed it's hyper to such a small portion.

I believe it nicely balances him out.

Lord_Cherubi
06-13-2018, 06:24 PM
Just making this thread to ask about where about my main man Shuga Sugar is on the rework priority list. While he is designed to be able to punish mistakes and control stamina, his playstyle just feels outdated in Season 6. There is a nice reddit thread discussing possible changes to Shugoki that I agree with:
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/7yk947/a_shugoki_rework_thread/

The creator of the Reddit thread is TickleMonsterCG

In case links aren't allowed I'll quote it here:


I believe it nicely balances him out.

This actually sounds pretty good. The "extra damage when HA down" shoul never have existed, it clearly showed Ubi had no further vision for the hyper armor mechanic back when they first created Shugo.

I would also love at least a couple more combos. Same as Warlord, it's really awkward to try to stay on offensive without relying almost solely to feinting and other mechanics.

Kryltic
06-13-2018, 07:08 PM
Some of it I like but I would go with something like:

He should have the following chains.
Light - Light (must start as a side attack, second attack automatically comes from the opposite side at a slightly quicker speed than normal - he hits you with the pommel side on the second strike - this also stuns the opponent)
Light - Heavy (must start as a side attack, heavy is automatically from top and unblockable)
Heavy - Light (light is any direction but with a different animation based on where the second attack direction)
Heavy - Heavy chain should end in a charged top heavy but with increased speed (same speed as normal heavies)
Zone attack - second hit is unblockable.

Any hit can end in a headbutt including charged heavies. Headbutts can now ledge and wallsplat.

Charged Heavies can be cancelled into a Demons Embrace or a guaranteed headbutt.

Demons Embrace also recovers stamina, similar to health but with a delay on initiating a second Demon Embrace. No more health loss on a miss.

No longer suffers increased damage upon losing Uninterruptable Stance. Stance isnt lost on a successful CGB.

Charge of the Oni can knock people over when used after revenge is activated. Decreased stamina recovery delay, also able to keep sprintin after the Charge ends (no more just stopping and standing still).

I like the idea of Demon Ball doing extra damage if a player hits a wall and then they stop but I would add that they are stunned.
I would add that any player hit by a player who is thrown by Demon Ball is also knocked over but neither player takes extra damage from hitting one another however both/all players affected are stunned. (While this will likely not come up often its still an amusing idea.)

I'd like the Shugoki to lose his Staggering Blow feat and gain the Warlords health bonus feat but as a level 4 feat.

This keeps the Shugoki as a hard hitting tank who can disable his opponents. Rather than playing uber fast he plays a grind game and has the health and abilities to back it up.

He can briefly keep up with or catch fleeing enemies with Charge of the Oni - keep sprinting - heavy/zone. A massive issue for some game modes.

His chains are all different with different effects or outcomes plus he can go into a headbutt instead of going into a chain. This means you can't always easily guess what the Shugoki player may do next. This is one of his biggest issues at the moment.

Edit: Also a charged heavy should have HA and should not be parryable. That would actually make it a little safer and more terrifying in single combat.