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View Full Version : so, how fast is our P51D (flyable) ?



XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 07:38 AM
I've seen figures about top speed here:

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_10.html


P-51D-25-NA:
-------------------
395 mph at 5000 ft = 636 kph at 1500 meters
416 mph at 10000 ft = 669 kph at 3000 meters
424 mph at 20000 ft = 682 kph at 6100 meters
437 mph at 25000 ft = 703 kph at 7600 meters

How does our FB one do ?

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Fw 190 durbatulūk
Fw 190 gimbatul
Fw 190 thrakatulūk,
agh burzum-ishi krimpatul

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 07:38 AM
I've seen figures about top speed here:

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_10.html


P-51D-25-NA:
-------------------
395 mph at 5000 ft = 636 kph at 1500 meters
416 mph at 10000 ft = 669 kph at 3000 meters
424 mph at 20000 ft = 682 kph at 6100 meters
437 mph at 25000 ft = 703 kph at 7600 meters

How does our FB one do ?

<center>http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

Fw 190 durbatulūk
Fw 190 gimbatul
Fw 190 thrakatulūk,
agh burzum-ishi krimpatul

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 07:40 AM
Close....very close....... It's so fast you cant help but black out if you try to turn too sharp.

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

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XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 08:10 AM
From posts it seems to depend on who you are and how you atart your run. Maybe on your definition of level and how long you have to wait for the guage to stop falling after you dive. Were speed tests approached from above or below max speed officially? It has to make a difference because if you let the engine cool and then dive before you go for max thrust then you will have much more heat reserve than someone running up from cruise or slower in level only flight.

With what the Chimp brought up about the cooling system, it should work more efficiently (less drag) the faster you go so in a dive faster than top level speed it would give an edge in energy-drag equilibrium that maybe never dies in level flight. If official tests were made starting from dives then the P-51 as reported may be too fast but if they were made as totally level runs then the speeds are probably right.

My guess is that 1C probably knows how the tests were done (most likely stated explicitly in a NACA document) and modelled the plane to suit.


Neal

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 08:33 AM
It reaches 760km/h at 7620m, radiators closed, 110% throttle. The listed speed, is attainable through both level acceleration and the 'dive-and-let-speed-settle' method.





-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 09:31 AM
so, 57 kph too fast ?

well, it is beta /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



<center>http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

Fw 190 durbatulūk
Fw 190 gimbatul
Fw 190 thrakatulūk,
agh burzum-ishi krimpatul

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 09:36 AM
hi hristo..and the best thing is...
at 8000 to 9000m it even gets a bit faster :-)

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 09:41 AM
Such speed will be not possible to achive in final build.
That is due to not finished supercharger model for that plane in 1.2b


kweassa wrote:
-
- It reaches 760km/h at 7620m, radiators closed, 110%
- throttle. The listed speed, is attainable through
- both level acceleration and the
- 'dive-and-let-speed-settle' method.
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
------------
- Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns
- to..
-
- "It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and
- proud of it!



Oleg Maddox
1C:Maddox Games

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 09:46 AM
thanks oleg you giving reasons for things that some ppl want and not ataining certain things are now clearer........~s~ oleg...

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U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

Message Edited on 11/05/0312:47AM by tenmmike

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 10:17 AM
Here some other datas. also for sea level or almost (525m) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


North American P-51-D " Mustang"Vital Statistics

Type:Single seat fighter

Power plant

one 1,590-hp (1186-kW) Packard V-1650-7 Merlin liquid-cooled 12 cylinder vee piston engine, four blade Hamilton Standard propeller

Performance

Maximum Speed:

448 mph (721km/h) (clean)

360 mph (579 km/h) at5000 ft (525m)

Initial Climb: 3,745 ft (1059m) per minute

Service Ceiling: 41,900 ft (13410m)

Range: 2,600 miles (4184 km) with max fuel


http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P-51.html

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 10:21 AM
Thank you for your reply, Oleg !


Hi Wastel /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<center>http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

Fw 190 durbatulūk
Fw 190 gimbatul
Fw 190 thrakatulūk,
agh burzum-ishi krimpatul

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 10:53 AM
ki84 can rundown the mustang with radiator open till 6000m, it has a stronger dm and climb also. Will you model a gsuit for the pilot blackouts we should get about an extra G a little less before blacking out if you plan to add one in for the mustang. Funny you dont hear any ki84 whiners its all mustang whines and now olegs gunna kill it like the p40 and hurricane which .303s are horably underpowered . Some funky recoil with the p51d guns too and super weak dm like the zero and mig, seems you need to make the oil cooler a bit smaller the engine dies to easy from tail shots

The zero fm and dm from seem .50s seem weakish 109s rip apart easier I understand its beta and right now they game has a good feel with the exception of the p40 which as you said you might have modeled 50 lbs of stick pressure for all surfaces on that plane. also should the p40 overheat that quick on 90 trottle and 85 pitch? overheat timing and max Im sure you will look at it everything else seems good except the 262 at high alt 7000+ which is a bug im sure you been told about

I think this is the best WIP so far 1.2b oleg and it seems to have brought fun back to the sim for me.


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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter</center>

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 11:56 AM
Oleg, will the Jug speed be brought up to spec? Are any of the gun "strengths" changed.

Awaiting Beta release but would like a little preview word from you if possible.

WYS
AB_Onedoc

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 01:20 PM
LeadSpitter, that is coming dangerously close to a whine ! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<center>http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

Fw 190 durbatulūk
Fw 190 gimbatul
Fw 190 thrakatulūk,
agh burzum-ishi krimpatul

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 02:00 PM
However. I can confirm what Leadspitter said....
Firepower is not that high on the Stang. We'll see on final. I love it anyways !


http://www.hell-hounds.de/sigs/gotcha.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 02:28 PM
As I know the jug speeds corresponds to NACA and USAAF spec. And as I know asked to correct Roll rate was done in 1.11 it rolls even a bit better than should really.
Just drag of "radiator" will be decreased in 1.2.


AB_Onedoc wrote:
- Oleg, will the Jug speed be brought up to spec? Are
- any of the gun "strengths" changed.
-
- Awaiting Beta release but would like a little
- preview word from you if possible.
-
- WYS
- AB_Onedoc
-
-



Oleg Maddox
1C:Maddox Games

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 02:35 PM
Both these speeds do not corresponds to official NACA and USAF reports /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif There are really slowly /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif

CHDT wrote:
- Here some other datas. also for sea level or almost
- (525m) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
-
- North American P-51-D " Mustang"Vital Statistics
-
-
- Type:Single seat fighter
-
- Power plant
-
- one 1,590-hp (1186-kW) Packard V-1650-7 Merlin
- liquid-cooled 12 cylinder vee piston engine, four
- blade Hamilton Standard propeller
-
- Performance
-
- Maximum Speed:
-
- 448 mph (721km/h) (clean)
-
- 360 mph (579 km/h) at5000 ft (525m)
-
- Initial Climb: 3,745 ft (1059m) per minute
-
- Service Ceiling: 41,900 ft (13410m)
-
- Range: 2,600 miles (4184 km) with max fuel
-
-
- <a
- href="http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P-51.html"
- target=_blank>http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P-
- 51.html</a>
-
-
- Cheers,
-
-



Oleg Maddox
1C:Maddox Games

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 02:38 PM
Recoil modelled acourding real digits of recoil. So we get it as complex calculations of recoil, aerodynamcis of the planes and weight of the plane as well.

However listen to the mass people we would like to change a bit that recoil of the wings located MGS to smaller numbers.

I disagre with that , but people want it too much. I hear it too often.


Oleg Maddox
1C:Maddox Games

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 03:35 PM
Some people were saying P-47 recoil was causing much yaw and that was too much. Like the guns on one side fire before the other side, not all at once.

Does the sim have recoil from both sides at once, evenly?

It's not about how much, it's about how even I've seen. Is this real?


Neal

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 03:54 PM
WWMaxGunz wrote:
- Some people were saying P-47 recoil was causing much
- yaw and that was too much. Like the guns on one
- side fire before the other side, not all at once.
-
- Does the sim have recoil from both sides at once,
- evenly?
-
- It's not about how much, it's about how even I've
- seen. Is this real?
-
-
- Neal

Yeah thats the thing, it seemed to yaw always to one direction when firing. You'd figure being shaken around quite a bit by the guns but always in one direction was strange. I figured it out by mis-aiming and hoping the spray was pushed up onto the target.

So the Mustang is a bit too fast at the moment? How much slower should it be?

Thanks for answering all the questions Oleg. Nice to see you around!

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig.jpg
"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few." - Winston Churchill

Message Edited on 11/05/0302:54PM by VW-IceFire

ZG77_Nagual
11-05-2003, 04:15 PM
All makes sense. I think guns jamming occasionally may be modeled - or possibly it was unnoticed damage - but one or more guns will fail on one side and you'll see yaw. I did notice yaw to one side in the p47 - but no others. Sorry to see them falsely tuned due to whineage - but understand.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/whiner.jpg


Message Edited on 11/05/0310:29AM by ZG77_Nagual

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 04:39 PM
Nagual, brand new plane, by itself, firing yaws to the right (in the case of P-47). ALWAYS. No matter how much, or how little you fire. You're gonna claim that makes sense? o_0 Does it even on the ground, and at any speed.

That's with both sets firing, and just the trigger (I think, hardly ever fire one set at a time). The other set when fired by itself will yaw it to the left, but not nearly as much.

And BTW - skepticism is healthy. You might wanna try it sometime (uniformly that is, not picking and choosing when to be).

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 04:47 PM
ive noticed on multi gun planes like p47 hurricane etc u guns fire in same order
u often have one gun with ammo left after others are emputy, usaly on right wing
ive no idea if its acruate or not /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
if u wanna test this, do several bursts till u run out of ammo

ZG77_Nagual
11-05-2003, 04:51 PM
DDT - I mentioned I see consistent yaw in the p47.
Clarity makes skepticism obsolete.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/whiner.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 09:14 PM
so how is the DM on the new P51... does it have a glass jaw like the really plane?

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2003, 10:28 PM
Thats what I've heard people saying. Like the Bf 109 in terms of being vulnerable in the engine. Makes sense to me.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig.jpg
"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few." - Winston Churchill

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 03:46 AM
Thanks Oleg:

The radiator being open was what was slowing me down so bad, I will just have to manage the cooling better, maybe pretend it is a 109. :-)

Anxiously awaiting the next patch and the add on.

WYS
AB_Onedoc

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 03:52 AM
JG26_Red wrote:
- so how is the DM on the new P51... does it have a
- glass jaw like the really plane?
-
-

The 'glass jaw' was no different than any other a/c that used glycol for cooling.



http://www.thundercycle.com/photos/dropdead2.gif



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 04:41 PM
Oleg.....thanks for all of your replys. I for one don't want anything changed because of whining. I love my Jug but there does seems some faults such as teh yawing due to teh guns. You say teh roll rate is correct?? wow!!! that slow huh?? As far as speed...teh radiator drag change should take care of that. thanks for a great game Oleg.

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 04:44 PM
still rather weak...

ZG77_Nagual
11-06-2003, 05:04 PM
http://oldsite.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=98;t=005153



http://www.yarchive.net/mil/p51.html

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/whiner.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 05:11 PM
So by these speeds does that mean the air speed indicator is giving us a ground speed or a TAS or an IAS as it should..... ???? any one????

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2003, 05:53 PM
Wow....three posts in a row by Oleg....It's sooooo nice to have a developer that responds to all kinds of questions.
I so don't know how any aircraft really flew in WW2..but I love this sims,,,,,,bring on the addon and BoB. Take your time on the BoB as it will take time to save for the computer upgrade....


"Nothing difficult is ever easy"

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 01:54 AM
S!


Kweesa wrote----
It reaches 760km/h at 7620m, radiators closed, 110% throttle. The listed speed, is attainable through both level acceleration and the 'dive-and-let-speed-settle' method.

__


I am not able to match your speed numbers in either level flight or with a shallow dive. Only a steeper dive would with a settle in would give me close to that speed.

Would you mind making a quick track showing the P51 developing that speed in both level flight @ 7620m and from a shallow dive ?

Thks, Kahuna

Braveheart's William Wallace said it best:
"I see a whole army of my countrymen, here in defiance of tyranny. You have come to fight as free men, and free men you are. What will you do without freedom? Will you fight? Fight and you may die. Run, and you'll live, at least a while. And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willing, to trade all the days from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies, that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our FREEDOM!"

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 03:08 AM
All I know is the P51 (all avg) against (FW190-A9 with cannon) and (ME262 default) knocked all of the german aircraft but one FW190-A9 in the Berline mission I created. But, many B17g's fell before the FW's and ME's got theirs.

I now understand why germany lost the war around Berlin. In creating the mission I find that the airfields around Berlin did not allow the german aircraft to reach the height necessary to do battle before the B17g's dropped the bombs. No matter what I tried they couldn't get to 5000meters fast enough and when they got there the P51's were waiting on top.

The mission generator with the aircraft parameters duplicates the frustration the Germans had during the last year of the War.

Regards
Jib01 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 04:23 AM
All fellow jug pilots, please try this. When you take off, get up to speed before you climb out, or at least once you reach cruise alt. Hit the F12 and let it trim the plane out level, then turn it off by hitting the F12 again. Do not add any trim. Keep your IAS over 200 during the attack and you will see much less or no yaw when firing.


sorry for the sig, had to do it once more. If anybody has a skin like this, please send it to me at abonedoc@absquad.net or send the addy for it.

WYS
AB_Onedoc

http://home.bellsouth.net/coDataImages/p/Groups/145/145395/folders/95395/670205P47Portrait.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 04:46 AM
Certainly, Kahuna.

Note that the speed is 760km/h TAS, so the speed bar will show something like 400 IAS or so in the cockpit, so be sure you're not confused about this.

As I don't have a posting space, I'll have to ask for you e-mail address were I to send it to you.



-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 06:52 AM
If you go to the non cockpit with gauges view, won't it show IAS on the speed bar and TAS on the left side gauge?

Also, does anybody know if 1.2 makes the FW a little more vulnerable to MGs? As it is now, it takes an inappropriate amount of MG and still flys like nothing is wrong.

WYS
AB_Onedoc

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 09:03 AM
Oleg_Maddox wrote:
- Recoil modelled acourding real digits of recoil. So
- we get it as complex calculations of recoil,
- aerodynamcis of the planes and weight of the plane
- as well.
-
- However listen to the mass people we would like to
- change a bit that recoil of the wings located MGS to
- smaller numbers.
-
- I disagre with that , but people want it too much. I
- hear it too often.
-
-
-
- Oleg Maddox
- 1C:Maddox Games
-
Ahhh don't do that what a slippery slope. If you had data to suggest the recoil effect (yaw, deceleration etc) was less than calculations suggest, then fine - some kinds of coding like biology always fix a process function if real is known for instance, however when the empirical truth is unknown stick with the calc I say