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Tuskegee1989
07-15-2008, 05:44 AM
Well , I really suck at dogfighting. Anyone got any tips? Everytime when I get on the person 6. They get right behind me and next thing you know. They're on my 6. I especially suck at the turning battle. I lose everytime. I put on the combat flaps. I have 25percent fuel. And I have a real sentitive joystick so it would be easier to turn. but no matter what , I still lose. I have no problem shooting down planes. The only problem is that I can't get on the person 6. Everytime when I go up. They lead there shot and shooot me down. The same way when I go down. And when I turn , I can't get away from them. I just end up turning into a big fireball.....This is a good game , It just gets frustrating at times.....

Tuskegee1989
07-15-2008, 05:44 AM
Well , I really suck at dogfighting. Anyone got any tips? Everytime when I get on the person 6. They get right behind me and next thing you know. They're on my 6. I especially suck at the turning battle. I lose everytime. I put on the combat flaps. I have 25percent fuel. And I have a real sentitive joystick so it would be easier to turn. but no matter what , I still lose. I have no problem shooting down planes. The only problem is that I can't get on the person 6. Everytime when I go up. They lead there shot and shooot me down. The same way when I go down. And when I turn , I can't get away from them. I just end up turning into a big fireball.....This is a good game , It just gets frustrating at times.....

TinyTim
07-15-2008, 06:03 AM
You need to develop feeling for turning (if you want to turn at all - later you will find out that you don't in order to be succsessful in air to air combat).

Set up a QMB with you in a Yak-3 or SpitIX for beginning, and set an empty Bf110 as your opponent. When you will be capable of consistently staying at his 6, switch your opponent and/or your ride towards more challenging combinations.

stalkervision
07-15-2008, 06:22 AM
Try this if attacked. Don't turn horizontally to get away. Brake up and to the right into the attacker.

This means turning slightly to the right and pulling back Hard on the stick. This will force the attacker into a complicated gun solution. The movement is (up and to the right)

Try it next time and tell me what happens.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SeaFireLIV
07-15-2008, 06:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
Try this if attacked. Don't turn horizontally to get away. Turn up and to the right into the attacker.

This means turn slightly to the right and pull back Hard on the stick. This will force the attacker into a complicated gun solution. The movement is (up and to the right)

Try it next time and tell me what happens.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He`ll get shot down.

Turning up immediately slows you down and any decent fighter will spray you with lead. It`s not a safe move if the enemy`s right on your 6.

There are no instant easy solutions, Tuskegee1989. It takes time and PRACTISE with PATIENCE.

First I would ask you some questions:

What are you flying? Every aircraft has different ways to fly and escape attack.

What are your difficulty settings? cockpit on/off, complex engine management?

Do you understand about keeping your energy/ sacrificing it for gain?

Know anything about sciisoring? barrel-rolling?

Answer these basic questions and we`ll get nearer to offering proper advice.

For now, all I can say is practis against AI offline and have patience, otherwise you`ll just get frustrated. Once you get reasonably good against AI, you`re just about ready to start as a new guy online.

stalkervision
07-15-2008, 06:45 AM
well seafire that was the manauver Erich Hartman always used when jumped and he was never even wounded in combat.

It is a standard ww 2 defense manauver. Will it work in our sim? That is what I wanted to see. If the sim replicates real ww 2 air combat truely well then it should. Not saying this will work though because imo it really doesn't. It is more a crude proximation of it.

For me I often use a big last second barrel roll to shake an attacker. I cut the power and barrel roll at the same time which usually make the enemy slide right out and in front of me.

SeaFireLIV
07-15-2008, 06:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
well seafire that was the manauver Erich Hartman always used when jumped and he was never even wounded in combat.

It is a standard ww 2 defense manauver. Will it work in our sim? That is what I wanted to see. If theim replicate real ww 2 air combat well it should. Not saying this will work though because imo it really doesn't.

For me I often use a big last second barrel roll to shake an attacker. I cut the power and barrel roll at the same time which usually make the enemy slide right out and in front of me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see what you`re doing, but giving advanced flying tactics of a known german Ace to a rookie pilot doesn`t mean it`s going to help him much at all.

Erich Hartman knew what he was doing.

I think if he can tell us what he`s flying that`ll be a start. there`s too little info from tuskegee for us to really help at all, imho.

Schwarz.13
07-15-2008, 07:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
Try this if attacked. Don't turn horizontally to get away. Brake up and to the right into the attacker. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This makes no sense at all - if he is bounced from 7 or 8 o'clock he won't be breaking INTO his attacker. Also just having a simple set-piece maneuver like that shows no imagination and is very predictable. If someone were to pull that in front of me i'd just drop combat flaps, pull a bit of lead, ease of the stick and boom!


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
well seafire that was the manauver Erich Hartman always used when jumped and he was never even wounded in combat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was not the maneuver Hartmann used if he got bounced - i believe he would skid slightly to deceive his attacker, then when they opened fire Hartmann would ram the stick into a forward corner and kick full opposite rudder - if his attacker tried to follow this he would end-up 'redding-out' from negative- Gs...

Here's some sound insight from a veteran ace:

"I always thought to go around in circles, slower and slower, was a ridiculous thing... It's not the way to
fight. The best tactic is to make a pass, then break off and come back."

- Brigadier General Robin Olds, USAF

Tuskegee1989
07-15-2008, 07:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
Try this if attacked. Don't turn horizontally to get away. Turn up and to the right into the attacker.

This means turn slightly to the right and pull back Hard on the stick. This will force the attacker into a complicated gun solution. The movement is (up and to the right)

Try it next time and tell me what happens.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He`ll get shot down.

Turning up immediately slows you down and any decent fighter will spray you with lead. It`s not a safe move if the enemy`s right on your 6.

There are no instant easy solutions, Tuskegee1989. It takes time and PRACTISE with PATIENCE.

First I would ask you some questions:

What are you flying? Every aircraft has different ways to fly and escape attack.

What are your difficulty settings? cockpit on/off, complex engine management?

Do you understand about keeping your energy/ sacrificing it for gain?

Know anything about sciisoring? barrel-rolling?

Answer these basic questions and we`ll get nearer to offering proper advice.

For now, all I can say is practis against AI offline and have patience, otherwise you`ll just get frustrated. Once you get reasonably good against AI, you`re just about ready to start as a new guy online. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Well , First off. I use the BF-109. The German plane and I usually use the P51 every now and then. My difficulty settings are on Normal. I don't have the cockpit view only on. I have it off so I can see below me too. As for the engine management , I don't use that. I don't know what that is anyways. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif Keeping my energy? Yeah , I know that stuff. I always gain some altitude when i'm doggfight so that i'm above the enemy plane. But the more I go up , It's like my plane gets slower. That's a easy problem for me to solve though. And yeah , I know about the sissors and the barrol rolling. That stuff really doesn't help. I use those all the time and I still get shot down. The only thing that i'm good is with preying above the enemy plane and diving pass them. Hopfully getting a shot but as for turning dogfighting? I can't do it. I'll get shot down in a split second.

stalkervision
07-15-2008, 07:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Schwarz.13:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by stalkervision:
Try this if attacked. Don't turn horizontally to get away. Brake up and to the right into the attacker. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

swartz/ <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This makes no sense at all - if he is bounced from 7 or 8 o'clock he won't be breaking INTO his attacker. Also just having a simple set-piece maneuver like that shows no imagination and is very predictable. If someone were to pull that in front of me i'd just drop combat flaps, pull a bit of lead, ease of the stick and boom! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

SV/ standard defensive manauver I assure you. Drop flaps and pull lead? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif No you will be the one in serious trouble then because you have burned right off all your "e" and you won't be pulling any lead by then either, just falling behind out of gun range with no energy left and you would have to dive to regain some. In the mean time your opponent would be above you and reversing his turn with a whole lot more "smash" then you have. You are now the hunted and not the hunter now.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
well seafire that was the manauver Erich Hartman always used when jumped and he was never even wounded in combat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

swartz/<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> That was not the maneuver Hartmann used if he got bounced - i believe he would skid slightly to deceive his attacker, then when they opened fire Hartmann would ram the stick into a forward corner and kick full opposite rudder - if his attacker tried to follow this he would end-up 'redding-out' from negative- Gs... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

SV/ Hardly. His standard evasion manauver was exactly what was said. I have his book right in front of me. I don't know where you dreamed all that stuff up but he never used what your talking about. He did have an emergency manauver but you are not even close to it.



swartz/ <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Here's some sound insight from a veteran ace:

"I always thought to go around in circles, slower and slower, was a ridiculous thing... It's not the way to
fight. The best tactic is to make a pass, then break off and come back."

- Brigadier General Robin Olds, USAF </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Olds was flying a F4. Agains't a mig that tactic would have made him toast. Migs turn much better. The f4 had gobs of power from their twin J-79 engines. What f4 driver found out was the best thing to do was "work in the vertical" agains't the migs. The migs engines couldn't hope to keep up with a f4 in a vertical dogfight. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

rnzoli
07-15-2008, 07:57 AM
Record a track, and upload it somewhere. It will be easier to give you advice that way.

RegRag1977
07-15-2008, 07:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tuskegee1989:
Well , I really suck at dogfighting. Anyone got any tips? Everytime when I get on the person 6. They get right behind me and next thing you know. They're on my 6. I especially suck at the turning battle. I lose everytime. I put on the combat flaps. I have 25percent fuel. And I havea real sentitive joystick so it would be easier to turn. but no matter what , I still lose. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you really want to turn, do it to get in a LETHAL firing position (if and only if you are SURE to shoot him down with this one pass, your experience tells you ) :

then you can cut the throttle off too: slowing down will help you to turn tighter.

(http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif To me it's better not to turn at all, even if the fighter you shot at and hit finally make it home.)

This (turning) is not a good thing to advice, do it only if you have a GOOD WINGMAN ABOVE your position to protect you during all the process.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tuskegee1989
I have no problem shooting down planes. The only problem is that I can't get on the person 6. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In fact you may have problems to shoot AC down.
The best way to kill is to shoot at the enemy fighter when he tries to avoid your pass, when he's turning towards you, in full plan, in front of you (90? def shot), not right on his six following him (you're predictable), unless you're absolutely sure that he has not spotted you (surprise attack).

In this scenario (high def shot) head towards him at full throttle , let him turn hard to avoid you, shoot a quick burst, then extend or zoom back up and repeat the operation. If you manage to inflict damage to him, he will be easier to hit every next pass.

If you miss and if you notice that you're against a good pilot(better than you) and that he's gaining over you, DON'T MAKE IT PERSONAL, dive and run away for home or climb away ( depends on what you're flying).

If you have done the things correctly (not turn hard) you will be in a higher energy state: he will be too far away to threaten you.

So don't forget:

1.Never make it personal (admit it as quickly as you can when you're facing better pilots than you, or pilots with better aircrafts: then fear the aircraft more than the pilot! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

2. Remember that you have to learn how to escape first. When you know how to go out of a fight, you will feel less pressure and then you'll be able to THINK your tactics:

turning is an instinct but unlike a
self-preservation instinct it will often lead you to death. You 'll have to practice to build yourself an effective self-preservation instinct, it's the first step for online success IMHO.

Remember if you had a shot on a pilot and if you managed to get out of his range, even if he's far on your six with you running farther away, then you won the engagement even if you did not have a kill. Because unlike you he had any firing opportunity (you'll notice that you're doing great when they will start to call you BnZ coward! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

3. Playing for the biggest amount of kills is non historical: win your engagement, stay alive, turn hard only to finish of and only with a wingman cover and if you're sure that there's no ennemy AC in the area.

I don't know for you but personally my anger is greater when i got shot down than my joy when i shoot someone down .

Hope it'll help http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

stalkervision
07-15-2008, 07:59 AM
Got a little "av aide" I whipped up for you. Me in my Me-109 agains't a spit above and at my six. Just wanted to see if this manauver I described works. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

First shot the spit is behind me and I see tracers flash by my cockpit.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/3177/shot205ql3.jpg

stalkervision
07-15-2008, 08:03 AM
getting closer that nasty spit. I know I can't outturn him. More fire..

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/6213/shot209hn7.jpg

stalkervision
07-15-2008, 08:05 AM
Now it getting a bit close. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Time for some serious action. Now I start my break to the right and up.

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/8876/shot212jc9.jpg

stalkervision
07-15-2008, 08:08 AM
"up and to the right" see the spit closing in. This is foiling his gun solution and he stops firing.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/9708/shot217fa0.jpg

stalkervision
07-15-2008, 08:11 AM
The spit driver gets closer and attempts to get into another firing solution to pull lead.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/6674/shot218wr1.jpg

stalkervision
07-15-2008, 08:13 AM
Will he do it? The spit turns damn well as you know.

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/1834/shot221tb8.jpg

stalkervision
07-15-2008, 08:16 AM
Here we go..

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/7018/shot228jf7.jpg

stalkervision
07-15-2008, 08:18 AM
a little more turning..

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/3104/shot229zt5.jpg

stalkervision
07-15-2008, 08:20 AM
The spit can't keep inside me. Hell he is no where near from pulling lead and slides right by me.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2328/shot230nt8.jpg

stalkervision
07-15-2008, 08:23 AM
I am in the clear and dive to recover "e".

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/7632/shot235im9.jpg

stalkervision
07-15-2008, 08:27 AM
and off I go... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/6990/shot241ac0.jpg


Mind you this spit had me dead to rights a few moments ago.

I reversed my turn and eventially shot this boy down also. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

x6BL_Brando
07-15-2008, 08:32 AM
Sometimes too much information is exactly that. I recommend using cockpit on so that you're only dealing with a smaller amount of sense data at any time. If you want to check out what leads up to a bounce then it's probably better to record a track and run it afterwards.

The primary answer is 'don't let the b*******s get on your tail in the first place'. That may sound glib but I assure you that it's the only approach that makes sense. Use a wingman to cover you, and practice sideslipping to evade as well as scissors, barrels, bunts and even split-esses - but most of all, don't let the bounce happen in the first place.

B

Tuskegee1989
07-15-2008, 08:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by x6BL_Brando:
Sometimes too much information is exactly that. I recommend using cockpit on so that you're only dealing with a smaller amount of sense data at any time. If you want to check out what leads up to a bounce then it's probably better to record a track and run it afterwards.

The primary answer is 'don't let the b*******s get on your tail in the first place'. That may sound glib but I assure you that it's the only approach that makes sense. Use a wingman to cover you, and practice sideslipping to evade as well as scissors, barrels, bunts and even split-esses - but most of all, don't let the bounce happen in the first place.

B </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Wingman? What wingman? I'm talking about 1 v 1's only. If it was 2 v 2's. All of this would be a different story.

stalkervision
07-15-2008, 08:38 AM
and BOB/WOV's new ai is really a superior product btw. If that spit driver could have nailed me he would have. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Schwarz.13
07-15-2008, 09:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
Hardly. His standard evasion manauver was exactly what was said. I have his book right in front of me. I don't know where you dreamed all that stuff up but he never used what your talking about. He did have an emergency manauver but you are not even close to it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Fly quickly straight ahead, and push the rudder so you fly a slight straight-ahead skid that will not be recognised by the attacker. If he opens fire, you push for negative Gs <span class="ev_code_yellow">down left or right</span>, not forgetting through the whole manoeuvre to push the rudder. Your attacker will hang with negative Gs in his belt, unable to pull the trigger. <span class="ev_code_yellow">With that manoeuvre I saved my life several times</span>."

- Erich Hartmann, quoted in Luftwaffe Fighter Aces (p.205) by Mike Spick.

(I have the good grace not to rise to your impertinence http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif)

Schwarz.13
07-15-2008, 09:18 AM
Oh and just for the record:

The Spit in your lengthy screenshot demonstration (which looks offline - was it Ace AI?) probably failed to draw lead on you because you did an inverted reverse turn - thus moving out of his plane of manoeuvre and effectively starting a scissors situation.

Had you stuck to your 'break up and right' manoeuvre and stayed within his plane of manoeuvre - i'm pretty sure (against a good pilot) you'd be toast! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Anyway such arguments about 'which-manoeuvre-when' are largely academic as there are too many variables to make things so 'cut and dried'.

For example, when i said about dropping combat flaps before, i meant in a roughly co-E situation in which a short dropping of combat flaps would give me a little extra lift for a good guns solution. However had i been coming in 'hot' and you pulled that move (or any break-turn), then it would be stupid not to just 'keep on trucking' and maintain my energy...

stalkervision
07-15-2008, 09:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Schwarz.13:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
Hardly. His standard evasion manauver was exactly what was said. I have his book right in front of me. I don't know where you dreamed all that stuff up but he never used what your talking about. He did have an emergency manauver but you are not even close to it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Fly quickly straight ahead, and push the rudder so you fly a slight straight-ahead skid that will not be recognised by the attacker. If he opens fire, you push for negative Gs <span class="ev_code_yellow">down left or right</span>, not forgetting through the whole manoeuvre to push the rudder. Your attacker will hang with negative Gs in his belt, unable to pull the trigger. <span class="ev_code_yellow">With that manoeuvre I saved my life several times</span>."

- Erich Hartmann, quoted in Luftwaffe Fighter Aces (p.205) by Mike Spick.

(I have the good grace not to rise to your impertinence http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Oh we are being sarcastiic now huh? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Hartman's standard break manauver was what I told you. He saved the last manauver you quoted as a absolute total last ditch resort. He also doesn't describe it quite that way in his own book. He talks of turning very tightly and then using his secret "negative g" manauver. Only in extream emergencies though.

I tend to believe his own autobiography more then a Mike Spick "quote" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

stalkervision
07-15-2008, 10:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Schwarz.13:
Oh and just for the record:

The Spit in your lengthy screenshot demonstration (which looks offline - was it Ace AI?) probably failed to draw lead on you because you did an inverted reverse turn - thus moving out of his plane of manoeuver and effectively starting a scissors situation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Lengthy huh? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif No, just adequite for the job.. Yes of course off/line. Think I could set that up so quick otherwise buddy? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Vet mode. Of course "vet mode" is two steps beyong il-2 ace. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I will try "hero mode" next time. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Ahh. no buddy. I wasn't inverted the whole time. Unless I don't know the meaning of the word "inverted" anymore. I guess you mean "the recovery phase" after the break. It's slightly inverted.

I also don't see any scissors manauvers here. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Swartz/<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Had you stuck to your 'break up and right' manoeuvre and stayed within his plane of manoeuvre - i'm pretty sure (against a good pilot) you'd be toast! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


That's just it, I wasn't in his plane of manauver. One dosn't just turn right and go UP. Maybe I didn't make that clear enough. Sorry if that is the case. I was "breaking into the attacker" as it is called.

swartz/<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Anyway such arguments about 'which-manoeuvre-when' are largely academic as there are too many variables to make things so 'cut and dried'.

For example, when i said about dropping combat flaps before, i meant in a roughly co-E situation in which a short dropping of combat flaps would give me a little extra lift for a good guns solution. However had i been coming in 'hot' and you pulled that move (or any break-turn), then it would be stupid not to just 'keep on trucking' and maintain my energy... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sv/ If "co-e" how do you catch up with your attacker? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The spit pictured was "co-e" as you said. He had to speed up to catch me as any attacker has to.

we met at the merge and then I let him come up right behind me after without manauvering away.

Btw the spit attempted your manauver no doubt of that. If you notice he couldn't keep in my turn and just speed off away. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

anarchy52
07-15-2008, 10:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tuskegee1989:
Well , First off. I use the BF-109. The German plane and I usually use the P51 every now and then. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, that explains it...

SeaFireLIV
07-15-2008, 10:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tuskegee1989:
Well , First off. I use the BF-109. The German plane and I usually use the P51 every now and then. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, that explains it... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello, tuskegee.

yes, this explains your problem big time.

These aircraft are NOT turning aircraft. these are `boom and zoom`. Think of them as `flying straight aircraft`.

When someone gets on your 6, FORGET turning. Dive and turn away in any direction, then just keep running until you get space ahead. Hopefuly, you`re in a faster plane and he won`t be able to catch you or perhaps you don`t have enough airspace...

However, he might be able to catch you, in that case it gets complex. there are several tactics to use to try and escape him. Bearcat`s around somewhere, you should read his Nugget`s guide.

You can try barrel-rolling or the scissors manouever to make your enemy over shoot so you get on his 6.

If you have enough airspace (and cockpit on), diving will still work because he`ll lose you under his cockpit, then you manouever and try to find HIS 6.

It`s never easy once someonoe gets on your 6 and as is said sometimes, don`t allow anyone on your 6, but of course, it`s not easy, especially if you fly in furballs a lot.

p.s. In a P51 you may be able to turn with 109s and 190s since they can`t turn much, but it`s best not to. Dive, strike then fly away. In 109s, though don`t trying with Allied planes.

stalkervision
07-15-2008, 10:26 AM
maybe he should try a "split 's'"! At least it would save him for a momemnt or two till he can think of a better plan. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Jaws2002
07-15-2008, 10:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
and BOB/WOV's new ai is really a superior product btw. If that spit driver could have nailed me he would have. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you were online doing that, you would be a very dead duck. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif.

All he has to do is roll inside your turn and shoot and many people online will take that aparent low probability shot and hit you.

Ask Mig if you don't belive it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

stalkervision
07-15-2008, 10:32 AM
In one german pilot interview I watched the pilot claimed he was still able to avoid Mustangs to an extent by using negative g manauvers. This was because the spits and Mustangs never fully solved the starvation problem to their carbs in negative g even with modifications to fix this problem which worked but weren't perfect still.

stalkervision
07-15-2008, 10:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jaws2002:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
and BOB/WOV's new ai is really a superior product btw. If that spit driver could have nailed me he would have. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you were online doing that, you would be a very dead duck. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif.

All he has to do is roll inside your turn and shoot and many people online will take that shot and hit you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe on-line but that didn't happen in real life that I am ever aware of. Of course the on-line world is a world onto it'self. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

and if they tried that I would "counter-roll" with them. The 109 rolls pretty nicely.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

stalkervision
07-15-2008, 10:38 AM
What I usually like to do is climb and roll inverted and reverse when chased and come back at them head-on. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

stalkervision
07-15-2008, 10:44 AM
Anyway the 109 Imo doesn't perform half as well as it should in il-2 , sad to say. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif I am waiting for BOB/SOW to see if this situation changes.

RegRag1977
07-15-2008, 10:52 AM
Hi Stalkervision,

Could you please give the title of the book you mentionned?

Thanks!

stalkervision
07-15-2008, 11:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RegRag1977:
Hi Stalkervision,

Could you please give the title of the book you mentionned?

Thanks! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure buddy.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


"The Blond Knight of Germany"

By Colonel Raymond F. Toliver and Trevor J. Constable


The true story of Erich Hartman,

the greatest fighter pilot of all time.


My copy is so damn dog eared and taped up from reading it over so many times I should try to find a new one.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

zardozid
07-15-2008, 11:07 AM
If you have to "break defensively" its better to break into the enemy...that way you complicate the shooters solution in the shortest possible time. What I mean by this is...if you divide your (flying) world into a clock you would turn into your enemy's half of the clock (if you enemy is at 4o'clock you break right, 9o'clock left). "Most" WW2 pilots would make a defensive maneuver "down" and into their attacker (in one way or another)... you could "jam" the diving attackers gun solution, or split "S" away, or a diving rolling scissors...

Schwarz.13
07-15-2008, 11:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
I don't know where you dreamed all that stuff up but he never used what your talking about. He did have an emergency manauver but you are not even close to it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

then...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
He saved the last manauver you quoted as a absolute total last ditch resort. He also doesn't describe it quite that way in his own book. He talks of turning very tightly and then using his secret "negative g" manauver. Only in extream emergencies though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
I tend to believe his own autobiography more then a Mike Spick "quote" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those were Erich Hartmann's words, quoted in Mike Spick's book (as i stated) and Spick cites your 'autobiography' as one of his sources in the bibliography http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

stalkervision
07-15-2008, 02:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Schwarz.13:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
I don't know where you dreamed all that stuff up but he never used what your talking about. He did have an emergency manauver but you are not even close to it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

then...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
He saved the last manauver you quoted as a absolute total last ditch resort. He also doesn't describe it quite that way in his own book. He talks of turning very tightly and then using his secret "negative g" manauver. Only in extream emergencies though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
I tend to believe his own autobiography more then a Mike Spick "quote" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those were Erich Hartmann's words, quoted in Mike Spick's book (as i stated) and Spick cites your 'autobiography' as one of his sources in the bibliography http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


If he was talking to him "personally" why does he even need his book as a resource? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

How about this buddy. His "quote" is close enough for me. Not perfect but close enough.

How about we call it a draw.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

UniversalWolf
07-15-2008, 04:56 PM
I'm new to IL-2 a well, Tuskegee. I've been cutting my teeth with the 109 too. I follow a plan that usually works. It goes something like this: by the time you get to the point where you have to worry about tricks or breaking this way or that to escape, it's already too late, so try to get higher and faster than your opponent before the engagement begins. By the time you spot each other, you already want to be upstairs - the higher the better and the faster the better. Then you can swoop down and take a shot and climb up again and he won't be able to follow because he doesn't have enough energy. If you're careful you can keep your advatage indefinitely. You just have to put that consideration first, and not fixate on manouvering to try and get a better shot.

If I lose my advantage and he gets on my six, I usually dive away - all the way down to the deck if necessary. Once you get to tree-top level, the odds seem to even out, since the ground is a hard limit on both you and your opponent's ability to move. If he follows you all the way down, you'll negate his energy advantage, and if he does the smart thing and stays above you, any diving attacks he tries will be hampered by that big planet in the way. Worst case scenario you can try to lure him all the way back over your airfield, and the AAA can spoil his day.

If he's faster than you, be sure you go balls out for home. He'll have to commit 100 percent to the chase to start making up ground, and hopefully the gain will be slow enough that you can make it back to base before he gets within range.

If he does catch you, you have one advantage left - you get to decide when and how you break to start the final showdown. After that you'll have to improvise.

Good luck!

RegRag1977
07-16-2008, 06:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RegRag1977:
Hi Stalkervision,

Could you please give the title of the book you mentionned?

Thanks! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure buddy.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


"The Blond Knight of Germany"

By Colonel Raymond F. Toliver and Trevor J. Constable


The true story of Erich Hartman,

the greatest fighter pilot of all time.


My copy is so damn dog eared and taped up from reading it over so many times I should try to find a new one.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif , i've ordered one and can't wait to have my hands on it! If this book is half good as it sounds promising, then my copy will soon look like yours http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

stalkervision
07-16-2008, 06:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RegRag1977:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RegRag1977:
Hi Stalkervision,

Could you please give the title of the book you mentionned?

Thanks! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure buddy.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


"The Blond Knight of Germany"

By Colonel Raymond F. Toliver and Trevor J. Constable


The true story of Erich Hartman,

the greatest fighter pilot of all time.


My copy is so damn dog eared and taped up from reading it over so many times I should try to find a new one.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif , i've ordered one and can't wait to have my hands on it! If this book is half good as it sounds promising, then my copy will soon look like yours http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You bet it will. It is my favorite of all my aviation collection. Great little collection of photos in it too.

Just have some tape handy.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

FatCat_99
07-16-2008, 07:18 AM
Maneuver which Stalkervision is using is variation of standard break turn which is basic combat maneuver. There is nothing wrong with that maneuver and it can be used online without problem, I'm using it all the time.

TBH anyone who are trying to fly with simulation in mind should use more of the real maneuvers instead gaming the game and use negative G maneuvers so much.

Now let's get back to break turn, problem with that maneuver is only in it's execution.
In game it's probably harder to do it than in RL because you have to solve 3D problem by looking at 2D projection and you have to take lag into account.

Due to online lag what you see is not what the other guy see and when you think he's 500m behind on his PC he can be just 300m behind. That's a big problem because timing is everything when you are executing break turn.

Principle is simple, you must make your break turn when attacker is inside his turning circle. If you execute break turn in that moment it's impossible for him to hit you.

If he is outside his turning circle than he can cut the turn and nail you, that's what happens so often to Spitfires when FWs are around.

All of the above is valid only if you have bandit who is approaching fast, if turn fight is established and you are in worser turning plane than start to look for CTRL+E.

FC

Schwarz.13
07-16-2008, 08:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FatCat_99:
Maneuver which Stalkervision is using is variation of standard break turn which is basic combat maneuver. There is nothing wrong with that maneuver and it can be used online without problem, I'm using it all the time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My original criticism of what Stalkervision said was to do with him advising a newbie that to break up and right everytime was bad advice - if the attacker is coming from your rear-left quarter then you would not be breaking into him but away from him, thus putting him in lag pursuit and giving him an easier shot!

I'm certainly not denying the efficacy of the break-turn! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

SeaFireLIV
07-16-2008, 08:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Schwarz.13:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FatCat_99:
Maneuver which Stalkervision is using is variation of standard break turn which is basic combat maneuver. There is nothing wrong with that maneuver and it can be used online without problem, I'm using it all the time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My original criticism of what Stalkervision said was to do with him advising a newbie that to break up and right everytime was bad advice - if the attacker is coming from your rear-left quarter then you would not be breaking into him but away from him, thus putting him in lag pursuit and giving him an easier shot!

I'm certainly not denying the efficacy of the break-turn! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The main problem is a lot of guys keep giving advanced advice, rather than advice that a rookie can actually use.

Some of the advice is bad because a new guy will not have a clue what you`re talking about. You have to get in HIS shoes and try to explain from a basic level.

Of course, he first needs to tell us what he`s doing before we can tell him anaything. That`s why whenever someone says, "I can`t outturn a bogey!" I never say, do this manouever, or that, I always ask first, "What are you flying?"

Sometimes I`ll use terms as `barrel-rolling` or `scissors` to test if they`re serious about learning. If they are serious and wish to learn, they`ll ask what I mean, then I know I`m not wasting my time. Many of these new guys give up as soon as they think it`ll take them longer than an hour to learn. I won`t waste time with them.

The thing is everyone wants a simple quick solution in WW2 aerial dogfighting. The only simple and quick solution for those who don`t want to learn is Ctrl+E!

Hoep
07-16-2008, 08:50 AM
Being a newby myself, mostly flying 109, i can say that many of the tips i read here are like greek to me (and i don't know a single greek word other than "Malaka").
The best solution i'm finding to my great problems in dogfight is simple...try everything and die everytime...every mission you'll learn something new.
For ex., i fly only on spit-vs-109 server and every time i take my 109, no matter how high i manage to get, i always find a spit/tempest or whatever higher than me, that bounce me on my six!...or, even worse, i stay circling for hours, very high, keeping in mind the RULE: keep your alt and keep your energy...then i spot something...i dive...500,600,700km/h....and it's a LW plane...in that moment i try to get high again but always find an enemy who has counter diving on me...
But, day after day, mission after mission, you learn something and i bet, sooner or later, i'll be able to do some of those strange manouvres u're all suggesting here.

stalkervision
07-16-2008, 10:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Schwarz.13:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FatCat_99:
Maneuver which Stalkervision is using is variation of standard break turn which is basic combat maneuver. There is nothing wrong with that maneuver and it can be used online without problem, I'm using it all the time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My original criticism of what Stalkervision said was to do with him advising a newbie that to break up and right everytime was bad advice - if the attacker is coming from your rear-left quarter then you would not be breaking into him but away from him, thus putting him in lag pursuit and giving him an easier shot!

I'm certainly not denying the efficacy of the break-turn! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well then we are in agreement, The break turn (my variation apparently) is a great basic escape manauver. One better start with a basic escape plan and go from there I believe. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

stalkervision
07-16-2008, 10:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hoep:
Being a newby myself, mostly flying 109, i can say that many of the tips i read here are like greek to me (and i don't know a single greek word other than "Malaka").
The best solution i'm finding to my great problems in dogfight is simple...try everything and die everytime...every mission you'll learn something new.
For ex., i fly only on spit-vs-109 server and every time i take my 109, no matter how high i manage to get, i always find a spit/tempest or whatever higher than me, that bounce me on my six!...or, even worse, i stay circling for hours, very high, keeping in mind the RULE: keep your alt and keep your energy...then i spot something...i dive...500,600,700km/h....and it's a LW plane...in that moment i try to get high again but always find an enemy who has counter diving on me...
But, day after day, mission after mission, you learn something and i bet, sooner or later, i'll be able to do some of those strange manouvres u're all suggesting here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Maybe off-line play is the way to go for you for a while. Personaly I fined on-line play not very realistic at all to what actually happened in real life.

I mean spits and 109's. what is the map? Is it over Germany. If Germany the German radar and interecept system would surly have positioned you to higher altitudes then the enemy. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

sounds like a "furball server" and that nonesense interests me not one bit..

Thekid321
07-16-2008, 02:05 PM
Stalkervision, you know what 'you're' doing for yourself. But I just want to point things out without giving my opinion.

1: the Bf 109 has a stalling tendancy when turning hard right. So if thats what your flying try going left. Or if you are being chased by a 109, go right so its hard for him to follow.

2: energy is life. If you are moving to slow, you cant climb, turn hard or catch anyone. try and keep your speed up.

3: When fighting AI, they are not human so you cant really fool them. but you can still out menouver them.

4: Know your airplane. If your plane handles better at low speeds keep it at the upper end of that spectrum. that way, you still have some energy, but you can still out turn your opponent. If your plane handles good at higher speeds, keep it there and try and out run your opponent, then turn and make a single pass, then do the same.

Good luck.

stalkervision
07-16-2008, 03:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Thekid321:
Stalkervision, you know what 'you're' doing for yourself. But I just want to point things out without giving my opinion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

SV/ Alright buddy.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Thekid321 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> 1: the Bf 109 has a stalling tendancy when turning hard right. So if thats what your flying try going left. Or if you are being chased by a 109, go right so its hard for him to follow. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

SV/ Certainly turning left in the 109 avoids stalling much more. Notice how this break right works also though. I am purposely not getting into a turning fight with the much better spit here. It is something I don't recommend. Even if you do it by turning left! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Thekid321 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">2: energy is life. If you are moving to slow, you cant climb, turn hard or catch anyone. try and keep your speed up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

SV/ actually in the 109 one can fight at slower speeds and win also. I do it quite often. The 109 e I fly accelerates extreamly fast from dead slow and climb like banshee's. Most do even in Il-2. Not a bad trait in a combat aircraft. Especially when air combat tends to wear you "e" down. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif



Thekid321 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">3: When fighting AI, they are not human so you cant really fool them. but you can still out menouver them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sv/ BOB/WOV Ai is really something different from Il-2's. I recommend it to anyone. Btw in real life a 109 could outmanauver a spit too. One just has to know exactly how to do it is all.

Thekid321 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">4: Know your airplane. If your plane handles better at low speeds keep it at the upper end of that spectrum. that way, you still have some energy, but you can still out turn your opponent. If your plane handles good at higher speeds, keep it there and try and out run your opponent, then turn and make a single pass, then do the same.

Good luck. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


SV/ Kid this ain't my first time at the party. Far far from it. Thanks for the well known and very basic advice but I bet I could teach you a thing or two buddy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Btw, I know the 109 upside down and side ways. Especially the "e" model like this is.

I just hope and pray to god that oleg really does a careful job on it's flight dynamics in BOB/SOW.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Xiolablu3
07-16-2008, 04:21 PM
Fight to your aircrafts strengths, and not the enemies, thats the key to winning air combat. Know your plane and your opponents capabilities.

For example Adolf Galland knew exactly his planes capabilities and that of his opponents during the Battle of Britian. For example, the classic quote :-


'Goering.........."What do you want?"

Galland.........."I can't even slow down to the bomber speed, without sacrificing all my mobility."

Goering.........."What? You have the best fighter in the world!"

And this was the occasion that, when Goering asked Moelders and myself what he could do to improve the capability of our wings, Moelders wanted his wing equipped with the DB 601N, and I said I wanted a wing of Spitfires. Of course, that was the end of the discussion.

Caldwell: Why, exactly, did you say that?

Galland: Why? He said we had the best fighter in the world. I said that the Spitfire was better able to slow down, because of its lower wing loading. It was also better able to turn at lower speeds. Our advantage was not in turning, but in flying straight ahead, diving, and climbing. Our turns were not tight enough. So when he said, "We have the best fighter in the world! Don't blame me!" I tried to tell him otherwise.'

Classic example of a man who knew the strengths of his aircraft, and of the opponents. And also a classic example of another man who had no idea of either.

Know your planes strengths, and try to find out as much as you can about the enemies, so that you can exploit his weaknesses. Galland knew that his Bf109 was much better at diving and zoom climbing than the SPitfire Mk1, especially with its negative G cutout. But he also knew where the Spitfire was better than his machine. A master tactician and excellent fighter pilot.

stalkervision
07-16-2008, 06:32 PM
I am impressed Xiolablu3. People always get the meaning of that quote from Galland totally wrong. Your one of the very few to really understand it buddy. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

KrashanTopolova
07-17-2008, 12:00 AM
I can't believe how many pilots here adhere to B&Z as the ultimate tactic. You see that advice time and again on the forum.

Some pilots, me included, prefer someone to B&Z them. The veterans have said over and over again that they found the most important attribute for a fighter pilot is the ability to improvise on top of airmanship. Get the tactics, manouvres and airmanship together then you can improvise as needed.

Hartmann never fought unless the odds were in his favour. That wisdom was passed on by Baron Not WreckedOften...as was B&Z

Sure the ME109 and FW190 were designed for strengths in the B&Z tactic but the ME109 was also a light airframe with the most powerful engine of its time. Flown properly it could turn with a Spit because it could match the Spit in slowing down. The Hurricane was not in that class, so the ME109s slowed down not to turn with the Hurricanes but to out-turn them (turn inside its circle).

Even the P-40 could turn with the Spit (RAAF Wing Commnder Bobby Gibbes and RAAF Wing Commander **** Cresswell). The ME109 if modelled correctly to RL would be very heavy and stiff on the controls when you dive...then you become vulnerable.

TinyTim
07-17-2008, 03:47 AM
Krashan Topolova, as so many times on these boards it is again, extremely important to state about what settings you are talking. BnZ on externals on servers is, yes, harder, because the attacked plane always sees you, and you cannont possibly loose the sight of your opponent in TnB fighting due to F6 key. On servers with externals off a lot of BnZ attacks result in a kill of an opponent who didn't even see you. On externals off you can also easily loose track of your opponent in a dogfight. Those are the reasons why BnZ on full real server works better than on open one...

I'm guessing you are speaking about externals on server setting.

Thekid321
07-17-2008, 09:17 PM
I agree with all of you. It all depends on the circumstances. and your plane.

VW-IceFire
07-17-2008, 09:26 PM
Simple things are the best things...so get close, shoot only when the target fills your screen, stay high and keep fast. If you slow down then thats when you're in trouble.

The rest is practice and experience. Allot of it is about just flying the plane...if your problem is not being able to turn then the problem might be not in combat but in flying. Practice turns, setup the QMB with just you and your preferred plane....just fly. Fly low, fly high, practice smooth moves so that you never have the plane stalling. Practice stalling so you know when and where its going to do it and more importantly...what its going to do when it does it.

Just fly. The rest will come along eventually.

Jaggy.
07-18-2008, 12:02 AM
Hey is there any Youtube videos showing proper tactics and maneuvers? Maybe with somebody talking us through the moves and whatnot. This kind of video demo would be great. The pics with the commentary was good though.

chunkydora
07-18-2008, 12:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Simple things are the best things...so get close, shoot only when the target fills your screen, stay high and keep fast. If you slow down then thats when you're in trouble.

The rest is practice and experience. Allot of it is about just flying the plane...if your problem is not being able to turn then the problem might be not in combat but in flying. Practice turns, setup the QMB with just you and your preferred plane....just fly. Fly low, fly high, practice smooth moves so that you never have the plane stalling. Practice stalling so you know when and where its going to do it and more importantly...what its going to do when it does it.

Just fly. The rest will come along eventually. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

+1

Words of wisdom.

I salute you.

~S~

PanzerAce
07-18-2008, 02:19 AM
One thing I haven't seen here yet: Randomness. If you keep using the same two maneuvers time and time again, people will just adapt to it.

Now, given all that, here is what I do if someone gets on my 6 at ~the same airspeed.

First option: If I'm in a faster plane (or just as fast), there is ALWAYS the option to run. Close the rads as much as possible, firewall the throttle, hit whatever boost you need, and hope they get bored (or lure them over to your own airfield where you have friends). Or, if you are significantly faster, start climbing upwards at the same time. Throw in a slow turn, and if the person is inexperienced, they will try to keep their pipper leading you, which will bleed their 'E', and allow you to get away.

Second option: If I'm not faster than the opponent, it has devolved into a turning battle. I would argue that at this point, it almost doesn't matter what planes you are flying. (so long as it isn't a I-153 vs. a D-9 or something http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). At this point, you CAN'T rely on canned tactics, sinec everything has been seen and done. Rather, you have to throw curveballs, etc.

One example, Something I like to do in a Yak-3, which has some absurd direction changing abilities: Go straight to vertical, and at the same time, center ailerons and rudder, and let the torque twist the entire plane 90 degrees relative to the horizontal flight path. Generally, that presents the person following with a plane that is now traveling perpendicular to their flight path, arcing downward, and to far inverted for them to follow. (You can also assist the torque if you are willing to REALLY lose airspeed, but a Yak will regain it).

Of course, there is also stuff like going from flatout high-speed to chopping the throttles and skidding to make them overshoot, simply trying to outturn them, rolling scissors, etc. However, I personally stuff that forces enemies to either break off or enter the stall window themselves if they wan't to follow.

Also, I've seen alot of people say to turn into the enemy if they aren't on your six. Remember, that if they want to follow, all they have to do is pull harder on the stick, and they will be able to get a snap shot off on you. Another option is to break away from them, which (in my opinion), has the benefit of forcing the enemy to ROLL before continuing to follow you. Tie that in with another maneuver (such as say, breaking hard one direction, then going even further and breaking up or down depending on how they roll to follow).

But, in the end, you have to come up with what works for you, since everyone flies differently. Personally, I prefer dragging people into knife fights at 200-250km/h IAS. Sure, they don't have to accept it, but most people do.

Pigeon_
07-18-2008, 10:37 AM
Interesting... the guy asks how to stay on the enemies 6 and he gets advice on how to shake an enemy and a debate about who is the best Hartmann quoter...

Well, Tuskegee1989, as what is true most of the time, there's no simple answer to your question. It all depends on the situation you are in. I'm just going to assume you're in a 1 vs 1 dogfight and you're flying a 109 and the enemy is a Spitfire. It's hard to stay on a spit's six in a 109, but not impossible. Just make sure you damage him before he reaches maximum turn rate.

In a close chase, it's really important to keep your hand on the throttle. A good opponent will make you overshoot before you know it. You have to anticipate his speed changes and react to them quickly. This is a very hard thing to do, and the only way to learn is practice, practice, practice...

In a 1 vs 1 situation (it almost never is online!) you don't have to worry about loosing energy as long as you stay behind the enemy and don't slow down to stall speed. If you don't damage him in time, the spit will outturn you eventually. When you see this happening DON'T KEEP CHASING HIM! just dive and extend so you can come in for another try or go home.

In case you do damage him before he reaches maximum turn rate, don't think it's all over. He might still be able to outturn you, so it's important to assess the damage and then decide if you'll keep chasing or to extend. If you didn't do a lot of damage he is likely to maintain his turn rate and outturn you. If that's the case, follow the above advise and extend as if he's not damaged at all.

When you caused substantial damage, there are a number of things that can happen:

1. He's (as good as) dead. You've damaged his controls, killed the pilot or even destroyed the airframe (wing off/big boom). You could finish him off or save some ammo and continue your flight. Be careful not to break off your attack when you see the "..... damaged .....'s controls" message though. You coulde have just damaged his rudder controls, in which case most online pilots remain very dangerous. You'll see it in his flight behaviour when you've damaged more essential controls like his aelerons or even his elevators.

2. His maximum turn rate is lowered. You can now stay with him through the turns and finish him off. You must still be careful not to overshoot though!

3. His aircraft has become unstable. If he goes through with the turn he will most likely stall. If he does stall, the best thing is to try to get some hits in and then extend or climb. Do not try to follow a stalling plane down, because you could easily crash into him.

Another thing that helps in a turning chase is a good control of the view controls. Make good use of your hat switch / mouse, or better yet, TrackIR.

That's all the advice I can give you at the moment and I hope it helps you. However, you should try to avoid turning fights while flying online, unless you're absolutely sure there's no one else around or that you're covered by a team mate, or, prefferably, both. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I could give you more specific advice if I knew more about the situation you're in. The idea of uploading a track is very good. Also, this game is worth a lot of practice and you must never give up. Maybe try something else for a while, but never give up and keep practicing. You will get there in the end! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


And now, I have a question of my own... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FatCat_99:
Principle is simple, you must make your break turn when attacker is inside his turning circle. If you execute break turn in that moment it's impossible for him to hit you.

FC </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fatcat, could you please explain what you mean here? It sounds very interesting, but I don't have a clue of what you're talking about, no matter how hard I try to understand. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Pigeon_
07-18-2008, 10:57 AM
Oh, almsot forgot... You say you have a very sensitive stick? That's not always good. In IL2 a stick can easily be too sensitive. Set it up so you can make the plane respond fast to the maximal input, but also make sure you can make very precise movements. In other words, when you move the stick a little to the right, the plane should roll slowly to the right. When you move the stick all the way to the right, your plane should roll to the right with the maximum roll rate. The most important thing is to make it feel natural to you. Make sure you take some time to adjust to the new stick settings when changing them before dismissing them and trying something else. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

stalkervision
07-18-2008, 10:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Panzer76:
Hey is there any Youtube videos showing proper tactics and maneuvers? Maybe with somebody talking us through the moves and whatnot. This kind of video demo would be great. The pics with the commentary was good though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks buddy. At least someone here apperciated my effort. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

stalkervision
07-18-2008, 11:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FatCat_99:
Principle is simple, you must make your break turn when attacker is inside his turning circle. If you execute break turn in that moment it's impossible for him to hit you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pigeon <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Fatcat, could you please explain what you mean here? It sounds very interesting, but I don't have a clue of what you're talking about, no matter how hard I try to understand. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I didn't understand this either. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif How the "H" does one know another planes "turning circle" anyway? I don't hardly know my own in the 109 and I fly it constantly! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Mind you I know the general feet distances in test data but how in the hell do you judge them in mid-air combat? Sounds like complete gibberish to me. In all my readings on acm and I have read quite a bit mind you, I have never heard that one before. Sorry to laugh but I had the same thought as Pigeon on that one. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

anyway even not knowing "his or my turning circles to the inch, it appears I did avoid the attacker. As someone mention. He does this same manauver all the time "on-line" to escape. That seems good enough for me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

VW-IceFire
07-18-2008, 11:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FatCat_99:
Principle is simple, you must make your break turn when attacker is inside his turning circle. If you execute break turn in that moment it's impossible for him to hit you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pigeon <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Fatcat, could you please explain what you mean here? It sounds very interesting, but I don't have a clue of what you're talking about, no matter how hard I try to understand. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I didn't understand this either. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif How the "H" does one know another planes "turning circle" anyway? I don't hardly know my own in the 109 and I fly it constantly! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Mind you I know the general feet distances in test data but how in the hell do you judge them in mid-air combat? Sounds like complete gibberish to me. In all my readings on acm and I have read quite a bit mind you, I have never heard that one before. Sorry to laugh but I had the same thought as Pigeon on that one. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

anyway even not knowing "his or my turning circles to the inch, it appears I did avoid the attacker. As someone mention. He does this same manauver all the time "on-line" to escape. That seems good enough for me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I know pretty much all planes turning circles...having seen enough of them turning tightly you just see it in your head. I'm surprised other people don't see it to be honest. Whenever I look at a plane I can see whatever its capable of doing as its doing it (or slightly before). Its mostly just experience...I can't do it right away...its experience based. I also have to point out that its not perfect and I can sometimes over or under estimate what the other guy can and can't do.

stalkervision
07-18-2008, 11:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FatCat_99:
Principle is simple, you must make your break turn when attacker is inside his turning circle. If you execute break turn in that moment it's impossible for him to hit you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pigeon <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Fatcat, could you please explain what you mean here? It sounds very interesting, but I don't have a clue of what you're talking about, no matter how hard I try to understand. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I didn't understand this either. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif How the "H" does one know another planes "turning circle" anyway? I don't hardly know my own in the 109 and I fly it constantly! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Mind you I know the general feet distances in test data but how in the hell do you judge them in mid-air combat? Sounds like complete gibberish to me. In all my readings on acm and I have read quite a bit mind you, I have never heard that one before. Sorry to laugh but I had the same thought as Pigeon on that one. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

anyway even not knowing "his or my turning circles to the inch, it appears I did avoid the attacker. As someone mention. He does this same manauver all the time "on-line" to escape. That seems good enough for me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I know pretty much all planes turning circles...having seen enough of them turning tightly you just see it in your head. I'm surprised other people don't see it to be honest. Whenever I look at a plane I can see whatever its capable of doing as its doing it (or slightly before). Its mostly just experience...I can't do it right away...its experience based. I also have to point out that its not perfect and I can sometimes over or under estimate what the other guy can and can't do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As they are doing it I bet. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Sure, one can look back at another fighter turning with you and estimate that. To be honest I can too and very easily. Even know generalized estimates of all the fighters before hand. Better hope that is all they will do when they attack you is all I can say to this answer. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


"estimating turning circles Imo is a sucker's bet" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

All one has to do is get involved with a experiance pilot that doesn't try to turn with you whatsoever but uses other well know and better tactics.

Nice example of that in this video btw..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt8G3vxLmKE&feature=related

Pigeon_
07-18-2008, 12:31 PM
Let's stay with the situation described by Fatcat here:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You must make your break turn when attacker is inside his turning circle. If you execute break turn in that moment it's impossible for him to hit you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You guys seem to understand the situation here. I don't even understand the terminology used... :S What does "being inside ones own turning circle" mean? I'm very confused about this.

Sorry for the off-topic btw... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif

stalkervision
07-18-2008, 12:31 PM
Believe it or not there are tricks that one can use to enable one to "turn" with a better turning aircraft. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

stalkervision
07-18-2008, 12:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pigeon_:
Let's stay with the situation described by Fatcat here:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You must make your break turn when attacker is inside his turning circle. If you execute break turn in that moment it's impossible for him to hit you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You guys seem to understand the situation here. I don't even understand the terminology used... :S What does "being inside ones own turning circle" mean? I'm very confused about this.

Sorry for the off-topic btw... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


well for one "how can one be inside one's own turning circles" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

all planes have different turning circles depending on their speed. How can one turn better or be inside "his own turning circle" It varies all the time. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

stalkervision
07-18-2008, 12:41 PM
Heck in my example the spit was pretty much at a similiar speed to me. We were at the same altitude even. He was doing a few more mph then me of course to catch up. I know the spit turns better then the 109. Why did I beat him in the turn then?

I even estimated his "turning circle" it was way better then me! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I still avoided him though? Why? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Just a standard "break turn"...

Pigeon_
07-18-2008, 12:52 PM
Still don't get it. Could you give me a concrete example of a situation that depicts "being inside ones own turning circle"?

stalkervision
07-18-2008, 01:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pigeon_:
Still don't get it. Could you give me a concrete example of a situation that depicts "being inside ones own turning circle"? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ask fatcat. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif All I can figure out is he means is "one's "best turning speed" All planes have a definate "best turning speed" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Try using that buddy.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


IMO "turning circle estimations" are for newbees.

except maybe when flying a zero.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

na85
07-18-2008, 02:28 PM
Here's what I think Fatcat is getting at:

Ok so imagine your opponent is coming down onto your six. He's closing on you, which means his speed is greater than yours.

At a given speed, a fighter will have a minimum attainable turn radius. The general rule is that the faster you go, the larger your turn radius is.

When the bandit is far away, his turning radius (large though it may be) is still sufficient to cut your turn and get a snapshot due to the separation between you.

When the bandit gets in close, your turning circle will be smaller than his (since he's going faster) meaning you can turn inside him. This is the point when you should make your break turn, since he has no way of immediately following you.

I like to think of it this way: At any point in time, there is a cone that extends from the nose of your aircraft. The cone represents where you can point the nose of your aircraft by pulling the stick. The cone gets narrower as your speed goes up (since you lose elevator authority). If you're coming up behind someone and he's inside your cone, then you can hit him. If he's not inside it, or if he pulls a maneuver to put himself outside it, then you can't.

So if someone's on your 6, then you need to get outside of that cone. Once you do that, you can think about setting up your next move.

stalkervision
07-18-2008, 03:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">When the bandit is far away, his turning radius (large though it may be) is still sufficient to cut your turn and get a snapshot due to the separation between you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed ideally try to avoid this and "break late" but here's a warning. In multiplayer there is no way whatsoever to avoid low probability of hit "snaphots"

There are just too many opponents..
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Pigeon_
07-18-2008, 04:36 PM
If that is indeed what Fatcat was talking about, I'd have to disagree with his claim that it would be impossible for the enemy to hit me. Unfortunately in online play, there are a lot of guys that are very well trained at long distance shots when diving down on their prey. I lost count of the times that I tried to 'break turn' out of their attack, but got shot down anyway because they started firing (and hitting me!) from over 500m! Of course, I tried various distances, sometimes too soon, sometimes too late, but my experience tells me that IF there's a certain distance interval for executing a succesful break turn, the gap would be very narrow, and I haven't found it yet... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif Those huys are just too good at aerial gunnery for me!

However, I found another way to escape the attack. I mostly use something that looks like a "messy" split-S. I roll inverted and dive down, slowly rolling and playing with the rudder. I always try to point my wingtip towards the attacker, so my aircraft's profile is as small as possible from the attacker's point of view. It generally works quite well. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

stalkervision
07-18-2008, 04:48 PM
500 meters! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Not in real life combat! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Like I always say on/line play is a world onto it'self.

Your stratdgy is very sound in this case. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

KrashanTopolova
07-18-2008, 05:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TinyTim:
Krashan Topolova, as so many times on these boards it is again, extremely important to state about what settings you are talking. BnZ on externals on servers is, yes, harder, because the attacked plane always sees you, and you cannont possibly loose the sight of your opponent in TnB fighting due to F6 key. On servers with externals off a lot of BnZ attacks result in a kill of an opponent who didn't even see you. On externals off you can also easily loose track of your opponent in a dogfight. Those are the reasons why BnZ on full real server works better than on open one...

I'm guessing you are speaking about externals on server setting. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

TT...I have never flown online...I heard a rumour that the Aces in game offline are more of a challenge...even if their tactics are predictable...but its probably only a rumour http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

blazer-glory
08-27-2008, 05:28 PM
Nothing new to add, just wanted too say Im in exactly the same position and to get this post bumped and maybe get a few more tips! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

wags94
08-27-2008, 08:00 PM
Okay here's a question about dogfighting with the Corsair (which I frequently use) is it better to use the 'C' variant with the 4x 20mm Cannons, or the 'D' variant with 6x 50. Cals but with a bigger, more powerful engine? I mean, I still can shoot down aircraft with both types, but is the 'C' worth using over the 'D' variant just cuz it has bigger guns?

Blindman-
08-27-2008, 10:09 PM
The F4U-1C is hands down my favorite plane in the game (I have a preference for using an American plane). I do all my shooting up close where cannons earn their keep. I can regularly shoot down twice as many planes with the 4 cannons than with 8 x 0.50 cal machine guns (as in the exact same mission shooting down bombers or fighters with the F4U-1C vs the P-47 D-27).

HayateAce
08-28-2008, 01:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:


The true story of Erich Hartman,

the greatest fighter pilot of all time.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Have to disagree. Robert S. Johnson (P47 USAAC) was on pace to outscore Hartman with a higher kill per sortie rate. This with the fact that Johnson was presented with fewer targets than Hartman.

For the record, Hartman possibly was shot down. A P51 pilot (check Flight Journal for the name) scored hits on a 109 whose pilot bailed immediately. The P51 made a close pass to get his enemy's mug on guncam film. Hartman reported this exact incident on the same day in the same area.....only he left out any mention of taking fire. He said the Mustang passed so close, he thought he was dead. Because Hartman shot down a bunch of Soviet aircraft doesn't rule out fibbing to maintain his "spotless" record.

I'm not trolling you StalkerMan, just something to think about.

Henkie327
08-28-2008, 01:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pigeon_:
Still don't get it. Could you give me a concrete example of a situation that depicts "being inside ones own turning circle"? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL impossible. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I think you can never be inside your OWN turncircle. You are always on your turncircle.

But you can be inside (lead) or outside the turncircle of the bandit (lag).

The attacker can want to offset the turncircles on purpose, so that he will start from lag (outside the bandit's circle) and then move to lead pursuit (inside the bandit's circle) and so get into firing position.

blazer-glory
08-28-2008, 12:35 PM
I hear alot of people say with experience you will get better etc but my continuing experience seems to be the same ie cant find any enemy fighters, see enemy in distance, fly towards them trying to keep them in view, they disappear, I get shoot down, repeat to fade.

Bremspropeller
08-28-2008, 12:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Have to disagree. Robert S. Johnson (P47 USAAC) was on pace to outscore Hartman with a higher kill per sortie rate. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Dude, how old are you? Seriously!

waffen-79
08-28-2008, 01:06 PM
not to troll or anything

just to say, IL2 '46 looks year light better than that BOB engine (screens by SV), perhaps it has better AI but I always fly against humans

noobisoft
08-28-2008, 01:09 PM
blazer-glory, are you talking online or offline? If offline, try pausing the game and looking around as an aid to keeping track of the enemy. This is of course not realistic, but may help you to understand how they are setting you up and to eventually anticipate / thwart their efforts.

idonno
08-28-2008, 01:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Have to disagree. Robert S. Johnson (P47 USAAC) was on pace to outscore Hartman with a higher kill per sortie rate. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Dude, how old are you? Seriously! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Johnson did have a higher rate of kills per sortie.

Hartmann: 352 kills in 1,404 combat missions = .25 k/s

Johnson: 26 kills in 89 combat missions = .3 k/s

There's no question that Hartmann is the highest scoring fighter pilot in history, but "greatest fighter pilot of all time" is quite subjective. That would be like everybody agreeing on which is the best piston engined fighter.

blazer-glory
08-28-2008, 01:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by noobisoft:
blazer-glory, are you talking online or offline? If offline, try pausing the game and looking around as an aid to keeping track of the enemy. This is of course not realistic, but may help you to understand how they are setting you up and to eventually anticipate / thwart their efforts. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I play online but I like the tip about playing offline, I'll have to try that! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bremspropeller
08-28-2008, 01:43 PM
And how's the propability of seeing enemy fighters on the '43/'44 western front for a P-47 pilot in compraison to a 109 pilot, flying on the vast eastern front?


Yeah, told ya.

P.FunkAdelic
08-28-2008, 01:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by idonno:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Have to disagree. Robert S. Johnson (P47 USAAC) was on pace to outscore Hartman with a higher kill per sortie rate. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Dude, how old are you? Seriously! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Johnson did have a higher rate of kills per sortie.

Hartmann: 352 kills in 1,404 combat missions = .25 k/s

Johnson: 26 kills in 89 combat missions = .3 k/s

There's no question that Hartmann is the highest scoring fighter pilot in history, but "greatest fighter pilot of all time" is quite subjective. That would be like everybody agreeing on which is the best piston engined fighter. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well I have literally NO experience arguing with people about this stuff since I know very little about WW2 fighter aces (I could do better arguing about WW2 U-boat aces). But it occurs to me that you can't infer that someone would have been the best had he had more sorties or enemies to face. For all we know he gets shot down halfway to his brilliant record and doesn't touch Hartman and you have to ask yourself how someone could be better but be dead before he came close to the record.

So thats why I think the subjective arguments about who's best are impossible to satisfy because everyone has a difference angle or agenda in arguing them. And since success as a fighter pilot is only measured in kills and percentages you can ask Benjamin Disraeli and Mark Twain about that.

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

berg417448
08-28-2008, 01:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
And how's the propability of seeing enemy fighters on the '43/'44 western front for a P-47 pilot in compraison to a 109 pilot, flying on the vast eastern front?


Yeah, told ya. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pffft...Johnson and Hartmann were nooobs compared to these guys:

Gunther Scheel - 71 victories in 70 missions.

Patrick D. Fleming USN: joined VF-80 in March, 1944 Fleming engaged only nineteen targets during six combat missions between Nov. 5, 1944 and Feb. 17, 1945; he shot down all nineteen.



* Note: this post contains sarcasm.

idonno
08-28-2008, 02:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
And how's the propability of seeing enemy fighters on the '43/'44 western front for a P-47 pilot in compraison to a 109 pilot, flying on the vast eastern front?


Yeah, told ya. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which is why I said that the term "greatest fighter pilot" is so subjective.

I'm not implying that Johnson was a better fighter pilot than Hartmann, I don't thing such a thing can ever be determined, but he was, in fact, "on pace to outscore Hartmann." Of course it was never going to happen. There's no way an American was going to fly anywhere near 1,000 missions. However, that doesn't change the fact that he was scoring kills at a pace that could have allowed him to outscore Hartmann if given the chance.

Bremspropeller
08-28-2008, 02:05 PM
Idunno, surely the statistics back this up.

But IRL, statistics aren't worth a squirrel's fart. There are just too many variables.

idonno
08-28-2008, 02:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by P.FunkAdelic:
...and you have to ask yourself how someone could be better but be dead before he came close to the record.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There were a number of instances of people facing greater numbers of superior aircraft. Who knows what some of those guys who went down may have been capable of? For example, did Hartmann or Johnson ever go up against a flight of experienced Zeke drivers with a Buffalo?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by P.FunkAdelic:
...success as a fighter pilot is only measured in kills and percentages...
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, success as in "highest scoring", but isn't this the issue that we're really discussing here? The title of highest scoring doesn't necessarily meen that someone is the best, so a guy who dies before he could brake someone else's record could still be the better fighter pilot. Hence the term "I'd rather be lucky than good."

Bremspropeller
08-28-2008, 02:59 PM
You guys crack me up. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

The highest success of a fighter pilot is to have survived. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

idonno
08-28-2008, 03:12 PM
Valid to a point, but really an oversimplification.

Bremspropeller
08-28-2008, 03:24 PM
Depends if you're the pilot or if you're a general, commanding in a shack far off the front. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

RegRag1977
08-28-2008, 04:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
You guys crack me up. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

The highest success of a fighter pilot is to have survived. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

+1

Surviving = success

but

Surviving + 352 kills = you deserve to become a legend...

HayateAce
08-28-2008, 06:55 PM
Start throwing facts around and all h@ll breaks loose!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"And how's the propability of seeing enemy fighters on the '43/'44 western front for a P-47 pilot in compraison to a 109 pilot, flying on the vast eastern front?"

Brems, you losin' it?

The Eastern front wasn't some big IL2 map with only 5 players on!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

It's pretty widely known that the Eastern front was a fertile hunting ground for even an average pilot, if he stayed alive and flew enough missions.

It is also widely known that by 1944, German fighter targets became more scarce as the months drew on towards war's end.

Bremspropeller
08-29-2008, 04:03 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Knowledge is power.
Looks like you fail to recognize the difference in being involved in a strategical campaign where fighters would meet faily often and fight it out and a tactical campaign where meetings of fighters were at lot less common.

Maybe you should look it up on a map.
The eastern front is HUGE. Flying four sorties a day wasn't uncommon.
But meeting opposition four times the day, however, was.

There were lots of "dead" sorties that were uneventful.
Johnson's type of missions were of a different kind.
They almost certainly would meet hostile fighters on each mission they flew, hence the better mission/ kill ratio.

BAG.LordDante
08-29-2008, 08:19 AM
352 kills, survived the war and the "russian hospitality" , and never lost his wingman
i think he did quite well. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

HayateAce
08-29-2008, 08:39 AM
Actually, the only thing I "fail" to do is agree with you and others that Hartman is the fighter god of the universe. He wasn't. I also disagree of your assessment of the probability of contact on the East vs West front.

And that's.....ok.

Bremspropeller
08-29-2008, 08:46 AM
Reading - FAIL

Comprehension - FAIL

Anything else - FAIL

As usual http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

buzzsaw1939
08-29-2008, 12:07 PM
Quick.... some body get a net, the chart monkeys are loose! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I don't understand all the advice on air combat here, he doesn't really want to learn how to fly, just game score like so many others!

If someone came to me on the flight line and asked me to teach him to fly, but doesn't want to be in an airplane, ...I think I would tell him to find a cliff and start flapping his wings! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

M_Gunz
08-29-2008, 04:04 PM
Best dogfighting tip: Don't be kill greedy, take your time instead of pushing angles.

Getting greedy is what loses the fight more than anything else.
Getting greedy is what keeps you from learning, just doing the same old things.
Getting greedy has you turning flaps down and slow, a perfect target for BnZ.

Some-a you guys, btw, are hopeless mudhens.

buzzsaw1939
08-29-2008, 09:21 PM
Mudhens?.. I like that Gunz! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
We used to call them Coots too, I wonder how many know what they are?

M_Gunz
08-29-2008, 09:44 PM
It's a term I made up back in 98 after getting on RB servers where the action was all slow
and low down just over the trench mud. Easy to run through and get a few while the rest
try and figure out what's happening and then jump to another server to find a decent fight.

Sometimes they'd get up to a whole 1000 ft but always the tight circles and going directly
for the six no matter what it did to their energy state.

Best part is that on the servers they stayed on they would rack up huge scores to prove how
good they were! Hell, I'd wipe my score every time it got to 10 just to keep a low profile!

One thing I did like about that sim was I could see the other planes. They didn't disappear
just as I was lining up my shot or just because they were below me -- even while I watched.
I know it can be hard finding another plane IRL, tried many times and even painted white and
ATC telling you approximate position it is hard -but- once spotted I could look away and find
them again in no time flat. As for camo, it's the same thing with deer and other animals in
the forest which I have many years experience in -- finding is hard but after that they stay
found and someone please tell me deer ain't colored to blend in! Or rabbits or even bear....

RegRag1977
08-30-2008, 07:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:

Getting greedy is what loses the fight more than anything else.
Getting greedy is what keeps you from learning, just doing the same old things.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's very well said.