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View Full Version : After always, cursing those AI gunners?



JSG72
01-28-2007, 03:00 PM
After playing. (And I mean playing I am No pilot) for over 5yrs now.

Was always cursing and posting about the AI defensive gunners.

My young Son (7 years). Asked me "How do you do do those man in the plane with machine gun things?".

I had not long Installed my now spare PF discs in his new computer.

"Press C and use the mouse ". I say. Then I thought I'd better show him.(He was suppused to be going to bed!

Set up QMB 1 B-25j against 3 J2M5s Okinawa default.

Blooming heck http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif Upper turret, I Managed to shoot down 2 of them but was killed by the third. Although I'm sure he would've went down too.

The delight, on my sons face. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

He started pushing the keys on my keyboard to go back to menu. but I managed to stop him and also gave him a lesson on howto Save Track.

One happy little gunner, off to bed.

And me thinking "Well! It didn't seem that hard". Although i was killed.

But Hey! It was in one of those Dogfighting B-25s

JSG72
01-28-2007, 03:00 PM
After playing. (And I mean playing I am No pilot) for over 5yrs now.

Was always cursing and posting about the AI defensive gunners.

My young Son (7 years). Asked me "How do you do do those man in the plane with machine gun things?".

I had not long Installed my now spare PF discs in his new computer.

"Press C and use the mouse ". I say. Then I thought I'd better show him.(He was suppused to be going to bed!

Set up QMB 1 B-25j against 3 J2M5s Okinawa default.

Blooming heck http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif Upper turret, I Managed to shoot down 2 of them but was killed by the third. Although I'm sure he would've went down too.

The delight, on my sons face. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

He started pushing the keys on my keyboard to go back to menu. but I managed to stop him and also gave him a lesson on howto Save Track.

One happy little gunner, off to bed.

And me thinking "Well! It didn't seem that hard". Although i was killed.

But Hey! It was in one of those Dogfighting B-25s

joeap
01-28-2007, 03:30 PM
Cute story!!

JSG72
01-28-2007, 03:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by joeap:
Cute story!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The follow up is. That I was quite impressed with my efforts.

So tried again. After son went to bed.

This time 1x B-25j v 3xBF109gs.Crimea).
Was killed in first pass. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

One Other thing? When I watched Track of original effort. My plane had kept its Wings on. However Whilst in actual QMB. It had lost one before hitting the sea http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

VW-IceFire
01-28-2007, 06:44 PM
JSG72...this is why I always have been saying that the AI gunners aren't nearly as bad as everyone makes them out to be. There do make some crazy shots sometime but often its pretty average...

Case in point, I tend to man the rear gun online quite a bit when I'm flying and someones trying to shoot me up. So often its me that lands the killing blow and since I'm pretty decent with my aim sometimes the first few shots are a killer (and many times not http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). I've had many a time where the person starts grumbling in the chat box about how the AI gunners are overmodeled. They tend to shut up when I told them it was me...with my mouse...and not some bloody AI.

They can be better...but only in the details I think.

horseback
01-28-2007, 09:50 PM
1. The gunners in the real aircraft did not aim by moving the crosshairs with a mouse. They actually had to move the guns with muscle power in most cases, as powered turrets were quite heavy and imposed a significant performance penalty on aircraft smaller than a larger type medium bomber, especially early in the war.

2. Machine guns are heavy, bulky things that shake when fired. They were quite difficult to aim from a ground position, which was why rate of fire was (and is) so desireable-it gives you the ability to 'hose' your fire onto your target, and once on it, to chop it up (believe me, you do NOT want to see what it does to a fellow human being). However, this only becomes a viable option with decreased range, say under 200m from a 'fixed' position, and under 100m from a moving land vehicle (with a skilled gunner).

3. A gunner standing, or sitting in what often amounted to little more than a seat borrowed from a child's swingset, was usually bouncing around while trying to aim said heavy, bulky, shaky machine gun at a target moving in all three dimensions relative to him, while someone else was driving. We will ignore the obvious penalties imposed by open windows, bulky flying kit, goggles and oxygen masks. The offspring of Annie Oakley and Sgt. York would have been hard pressed to hit a single engined aircraft trying to fly formation 200m away without hours and hours of practice, which was why tight formations allowing for a high volume of fire on attacking aircraft was necessary, and why single multiseat aircraft were generally considered easy meat for single seat fighters.

4. There is a significant difference in how effective the ai gunners are in a Player's plane shooting at ai targets vs when they are in a 'pure' ai aircraft & shooting at a Player's plane. Personally, I'd rather face the Terminator with a Vulcan gatling gun than an Il-2 ai gunner with a flintlock pistol in a real shootout...

But yeah, it was a cute story.

cheers

horseback

Tater-SW-
01-29-2007, 08:41 AM
Did you save the track after the mission, or a quick save DURING the mission? Playback of tracks saved at the end are not accurate, and have not been for many verson patches.

WB_Outlaw
01-29-2007, 08:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
Did you save the track after the mission, or a quick save DURING the mission? Playback of tracks saved at the end are not accurate, and have not been for many verson patches. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My experience has been that they are now accurate, although, if you use time compression during the mission or playback you stand a good chance of getting out of sync with what really happened. I have done many .trk recordings including carrier ops with no problems. I haven't tried carrier ops in rough weather though, which used to be a killer on .trk files. If I could remove the icons from .ntrk files I wouldn't need to use the .trk format, but, cest la vie I suppose.


--Outlaw

DuxCorvan
01-29-2007, 09:04 AM
Oh yes, we all know that Defiant and Roc were the best fighters of WW2 and that 8th AF day bombing campaign did so well without escorts... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Come on, the sad reality is: rear gunners were dangerous, but in Il-2 they are ridiculously effective, no matter if they're human or AI mannered.

For the reasons Horseback mentioned -and some others- having accurate shots from a gunner position is really hard, and dissuasion is more a question of numbers and rate of fire, than of efficiency.

I've told the story several times:

Before Spanish Civil War, Cpt. Lacalle -later a well-known I-15 ace- made a bet against a bomber crew that his fighter -an obsolescent Ni.62- could be in fire position far more times than the bomber gunner could even aim at him. The bomber was an also obsolescent Br.XIX. Being old types, relative speeds were much slower than in WW2, making things even easier for the gunner. Well, Cpt. Lacalle had free dinners for a month, bomber crew admitting that, if alone, they were left 'at the mercy of enemy fighters".

JSG72
01-29-2007, 02:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
Oh yes, we all know that Defiant and Roc were the best fighters of WW2 and that 8th AF day bombing campaign did so well without escorts... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Come on, the sad reality is: rear gunners were dangerous, but in Il-2 they are ridiculously effective, no matter if they're human or AI mannered.

For the reasons Horseback mentioned -and some others- having accurate shots from a gunner position is really hard, and dissuasion is more a question of numbers and rate of fire, than of efficiency.

I've told the story several times:

Before Spanish Civil War, Cpt. Lacalle -later a well-known I-15 ace- made a bet against a bomber crew that his fighter -an obsolescent Ni.62- could be in fire position far more times than the bomber gunner could even aim at him. The bomber was an also obsolescent Br.XIX. Being old types, relative speeds were much slower than in WW2, making things even easier for the gunner. Well, Cpt. Lacalle had free dinners for a month, bomber crew admitting that, if alone, they were left 'at the mercy of enemy fighters". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

MMmm? I can take your example as a One off!
Just as I was flabbergasted to see.
I could in fact shoot down 2 out of an attacking 3 J2M5s. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif As said: Have track and they were purely my kills as tailgunner was dead on first attack.

However as posted :This time 1x B-25j v 3xBF109gs.Crimea).
Was killed in first pass.

I therefore assume I was just Lucky.

I do still hate those AI tail gunners and have never to my knowledge ever managed to kill one!