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View Full Version : Ground Effects a little Overboard?



SlickStick
03-14-2005, 04:34 PM
I've been noticing that tail-draggers love to bounce around even on smooth runways in the current version of the game. I mean just rolling across a small patch of grass next to the runway at 30-40km/h shouldn't kick your tail over your head, should it?!?

It's most noticeable to me in the Spitfire series, mostly the VIII and the IX. Maybe I'm taxiing too fast or something, but the ground effects "feel" extremely sensitive in most planes to me.

Are the ground effects we have considered "realistically modeled" at this time? Just curious.

SlickStick
03-14-2005, 04:34 PM
I've been noticing that tail-draggers love to bounce around even on smooth runways in the current version of the game. I mean just rolling across a small patch of grass next to the runway at 30-40km/h shouldn't kick your tail over your head, should it?!?

It's most noticeable to me in the Spitfire series, mostly the VIII and the IX. Maybe I'm taxiing too fast or something, but the ground effects "feel" extremely sensitive in most planes to me.

Are the ground effects we have considered "realistically modeled" at this time? Just curious.

JG54_Arnie
03-14-2005, 04:40 PM
Try a P-40 or any early war plane http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

p1ngu666
03-14-2005, 04:42 PM
pogo grass as leadspitter calls it, and hes correct

p1ngu666
03-14-2005, 04:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG54_Arnie:
Try a P-40 or any early war plane http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

early p40 has VERY little suspension damping, so it bounces alot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

3.JG51_BigBear
03-14-2005, 05:04 PM
They're probably trying to address the complaints about being able to land the planes virtually anywhere with the gear down.

VW-IceFire
03-14-2005, 06:16 PM
Even on the smooth grass areas for takeoffs and landings the Spit still bounces like crazy.

Was added between 3.01 and 3.03 somewhere. May be an accident when something else was changed.

3.JG51_BigBear
03-14-2005, 06:43 PM
The early P-40s seem to have it just as bad or worse. The only way you can take off in it is to jam the stick full forward and get the tail up as quickly as possible.

mortoma
03-14-2005, 07:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG54_Arnie:
Try a P-40 or any early war plane http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

early p40 has VERY little suspension damping, so it bounces alot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This only has to do with the map you're flying the early P-40 on, it has nothing to do with it's suspension. About half of the old maps and all of the new PF maps have a bug that causes certain planes to bounce from side to side severely. And it's not realistic. I've flown several different types of GA aircraft form very bumpy grass runways and they never do that, I even had some lessons in taildraggers ( C-170 ) and it never happened like that.

But anyway, try taking the P-40B or C model from the Finland/Leningrad map and they don't wobble at all. That's one of the reasons I started a P-40C campaign as a Russian pilot in the Leningrad subcampaign, because I love the early P-40s but hate the wobble bug. Don't experience the bug on that map. As far as the early P-40 itself, I've seen actual footage of the AVG Flying Tigers take off and land and they flew from crude and bumpy unprepared runways. They didn't wobble from side to side like we experience in the game. Even if aircraft suspension is totally undampened, the bouncy motion is not limited from side to side in any case. Most high-winged Cessnas have only spring steel langing gear suspension ( no dampening ) and they don't go ONLY from side to side, but a little of everything. The amount of side to side wobble that we see in this sim on some maps and some planes is so bad your wings want to dig in the runway. Just a bit exaggerated!!!

mortoma
03-14-2005, 07:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
I've been noticing that tail-draggers love to bounce around even on smooth runways in the current version of the game. I mean just rolling across a small patch of grass next to the runway at 30-40km/h shouldn't kick your tail over your head, should it?!?

It's most noticeable to me in the Spitfire series, mostly the VIII and the IX. Maybe I'm taxiing too fast or something, but the ground effects "feel" extremely sensitive in most planes to me.

Are the ground effects we have considered "realistically modeled" at this time? Just curious. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>"Ground effects" is not a very good thing to call it since that can be confused with real ground effects in an aircraft, which is the "cushion effect" of the air when you're landing or taking off and you're within about a wing-span and a half of the ground. You should use a different phrase when you talk about the effects of bumpy or uneven ground. Maybe terrain effects or bumpy ground effects??

SlickStick
03-14-2005, 08:04 PM
Ah, copy that, mortoma. How about "plane on ground" effects? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Interesting points about it being map-related for the P-40s. Are you saying this also applies to the Spit in this case? I'll have to do some map testing.

However, after reading from IceFire and yourself, it appears to be a little quirky for the Spitfire and other planes. I'll have to do a little more research.

Another interesting point about the field landings possibility, BigBear.

LOL @ "Pogo Grass". You're right, p1ngu666, that term does describe it quite accurately. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Almost everytime I land that schweet Mk. VIII, she wants to d*a*m*n near kill me with an endo. Even at slow speeds it seems. I guess I'll have to actually start thinking about landing, instead of just getting it down as fast as possible to avoid being a Base-hanger's Vulch Victim, hehehe. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

mortoma
03-14-2005, 08:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
Ah, copy that, _mortoma_. How about "plane on ground" effects? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Interesting points about it being map-related for the P-40s. Are you saying this also applies to the Spit in this case? I'll have to do some map testing.

However, after reading from _IceFire_ and yourself, it appears to be a little quirky for the Spitfire and other planes. I'll have to do a little more research.

Another interesting point about the field landings possibility, _BigBear_.

LOL @ "Pogo Grass". You're right, _p1ngu666_, that term does describe it quite accurately. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Almost everytime I land that _schweet_ Mk. VIII, she wants to d*a*m*n near kill me with an endo. Even at slow speeds it seems. I guess I'll have to actually _start_ thinking about landing, instead of just getting it down as fast as possible to avoid being a Base-hanger's Vulch Victim, hehehe. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It's map related with the early P-40s, the I-16, I-153 and I think to some smaller extent a lot of planes but in those others it's less noticable and more manageable. Even the P-47 has some wobble on the wobble prone maps but it's not bad in planes like that, so most people never notice it. You might go into FMB and make a small mission with a Spit on the Leningrad map to see if the wobble is lessened. I never had much troublewith the Spitfire on any map but now you got my curiousity going so I'm headin to FMB now!! One interesting thing is that in my experience, on the maps that have the wobble problem the badly affected planes will even wobble on hard concrete/paved runways!! So it really has nothing to do with grass as far as the game is concerned.

p1ngu666
03-14-2005, 08:32 PM
damping, or lack of why some planes rock about, but some maps are "smoother" than others, piling on noseup trim helps, but its abit silly the planes with a pogo tail wheel http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

anarchy52
03-15-2005, 02:25 AM
It used to be possible to land on the field.

Now you do a perfect touchdown lay off the brakes plane decelerates and then at about 40km/h tail violently bounes and it noses over. No way to prevent it. In bellum we used to do rescue missions by landing on roads. The 40km/h noseover feels scripted and unrealistic. What kind of tail wheel could bounce so hard at 40km/h to make a plane do a sommersault? It's like the front wheels have no shock absorbers at all, tail has no weight and tail wheel has ideal non-elastic colision modelled.

When landing on rough terrain I'd expect front wheels bouncing at higher speed, but 40km/h tail wheel scripted bounce is pure rubbish.

CyC_AnD
03-15-2005, 07:06 AM
First of all planes have wrong mass distribution and are not heavy enough.
Bouncing is just silly, i feel like i would sit on baloon not a plane (or a beach ball).
This thing and something more makes tree point landing almost impossible, and note that some planes should be only 3 point landings (like bf109 f.e. due to big proppeller and small space from propp to ground), some planes should start from 3 points as well, not like it is now, full power and tail up at 80km.

Emergy landings in not prepared terrain is absolutly possible in real, you need only enough place without trees, and quite flat. If you would crash the front wheel should brake or dig in ground and then tail may go up and plane will land on back, or just nose will dig if ground is soft. But not poping tail... whell maybe on hurricane which had light tail but not in havy planes.

mortoma
03-15-2005, 08:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CyC_AnD:
First of all planes have wrong mass distribution and are not heavy enough.
Bouncing is just silly, i feel like i would sit on baloon not a plane (or a beach ball).
This thing and something more makes tree point landing almost impossible, and note that some planes should be only 3 point landings (like bf109 f.e. due to big proppeller and small space from propp to ground), some planes should start from 3 points as well, not like it is now, full power and tail up at 80km.

Emergy landings in not prepared terrain is absolutly possible in real, you need only enough place without trees, and quite flat. If you would crash the front wheel should brake or dig in ground and then tail may go up and plane will land on back, or just nose will dig if ground is soft. But not poping tail... whell maybe on hurricane which had light tail but not in havy planes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>ome of you guys are talking about something else, which is landing on non-airfield surfaces ( I.E., not a runway or taxi-way ).
The slow speed tail somersault is indeed unrealistic. And as far as what the last posting person said about the Hurricane, I seriously doubt it's tail would flip it completely over either. It may bounce around a bit but not flip all the way over unless it was still going a bit fast and it's mains dug completely into something very soft.

p1ngu666
03-15-2005, 08:52 AM
well it happens on runways AND non runway ground, just more on the rough ground, and yeah to land on rough and not bend your prop ud be very lucky...

womenfly
03-15-2005, 11:08 AM
<span class="ev_code_PINK">If you think this is bad €¦€¦ Just wait until the Mosquito is available. It had €œ Rudder disc shock absorbers€. You think the aircraft now bounce around a lot! €¦.... </span> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

This has nothing to due with "ground effect".

p1ngu666
03-15-2005, 11:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by womenfly:
<span class="ev_code_PINK">If you think this is bad €¦€¦ Just wait until the Mosquito is available. It had €œ Rudder disc shock absorbers€. You think the aircraft now bounce around a lot! €¦.... </span> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

This has nothing to due with "ground effect". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

a large % of mossies where lost in accidents i think, but, this was partly due to the germans inability to shoot them down http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bremspropeller
03-15-2005, 01:08 PM
Taxiing the Thunderbolt almost makes me vomit...

It's more like being a fisherman than being a pilot. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

SlickStick
03-16-2005, 01:41 AM
Well, at least I'm not alone in thinking that a plane should not do an endo like a pogo stick is attached to the tail wheel during low speed taxiing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

I didn't get a chance to test further, but I'm planning on looking into the map angle. Only because it seems to me to have gotten more sensitive, than it was in FB/AEP.

SlickStick
03-16-2005, 05:45 PM
I have to get a track of this posted.

I was on a Winter map on a scripted server and I couldn't even roll down a cement runway from 40km/h to full stop, without the tail hopping and popping off of the ground, right up until the plane came to a dead stop.

Even then, for a few more seconds, the tail was still hopping while stopped. This in a Spit Mk. VIII CW. This seems to be a bit ridiculous.