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psykopatsak
09-29-2009, 01:58 PM
so, what evasive manouvers do you find the most effective? i'm asking because i recently started to fly online, and i often find myselft with hostiles on the tail, and i have a very hard time to shake them. im mostly flying the BF109, Focke wulf and spitfire.

psykopatsak
09-29-2009, 01:58 PM
so, what evasive manouvers do you find the most effective? i'm asking because i recently started to fly online, and i often find myselft with hostiles on the tail, and i have a very hard time to shake them. im mostly flying the BF109, Focke wulf and spitfire.

na85
09-29-2009, 02:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by psykopatsak:
so, what evasive manouvers do you find the most effective? i'm asking because i recently started to fly online, and i often find myselft with hostiles on the tail, and i have a very hard time to shake them. im mostly flying the BF109, Focke wulf and spitfire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I used to try to find the magic evasive maneuver when I was new, but what I came to realize with experience is that any maneuver can be effective, and it all depends on the circumstances.

For instance: If your aircraft has a good climb rate (better than your opponents) and he's diving down from above, you might be able to use a rolling scissors.

If he's going to overshoot your flight path a simple reversal can work.

If your aircraft has good elevator authority at high speed and his does not, you can put it into a vertical dive, get the speed up, and then use your control abililty to roll out-of-plane with him and escape.

It's all relative to the differences between your aircraft and his.

TS_Sancho
09-29-2009, 02:21 PM
Speed and situational awareness are a big part of being successful online.

Learn to estimate your opponents energy state so you know when to press an attack and when to run.

There is no magic manuever that will baffle any adversairy as it all depends on the plane, airspeed, altitude, pilot skill etc.

If you want to give a more specific example you'll get better feedback as the actions I would take in a spitfire with an FW on my 6 are entirely different than what I would do if the rolls were reversed.

BillSwagger
09-29-2009, 02:27 PM
You will learn to anticipate certain situations, and pay attention to how your opponents respond when you have them in your sites.

If they are diving onto you from a steeper angle, it will take them greater effort to pull up. So at the right moment pull up, and they won't be able to follow.

This is the same if they are speeding at you from the side. You will want to turn into them forcing them to bank harder which will make them black out if they follow.

You might avoid pulling up when they are on your low six. Its just not wise because you will slow down and become less maneuverable making you easy prey for them as they close in.

When they saddle in on your six, its best to always be rolling and turning, and constantly changing directions to be less predictable. There really isn't a magic maneuver that works here but as a last resort i take them down to the deck and chop throttle while rolling about. This always forces an overshoot, unless they slow down too in which case you can begin to scissor for position. You really have to have a great feel for the planes to be successful in these situations as it involves pushing the plane to edge and sometimes even spinning only to regain control again.

Dgirth
09-29-2009, 02:36 PM
Try reading this guid it explain in detail about shaking some one from your 6 plus alot more http://web.comhem.se/~u85627360/ (http://web.comhem.se/%7Eu85627360/)

JtD
09-29-2009, 02:37 PM
A good defense doesn't start when you have a bandit on your six, in fact when this happens, you've failed big time already. You need to try to avoid this if you want to return to base on a regular basis.

That said, for your preferred rides:
The Fw usually is one of the fastest planes available, in particular near sea level and around 5-6km altitude. It also climbs terribly and is good in a dive. So if the room allows for it, enter a gentle dive, give it full throttle and run for your life. You can fly gentle maneuvers to upset your enemies aim. Don't try this when the guy is closer than say 400m.
If he his, you need to make use of the great roll rate and good high speed maneuverability of the Fw. For instance, fly a split-S. In the vertical part of the maneuvre, you can use the roll rate to change direction as quickly as hardly any other plane in game and in the high speed pull out, not many can follow.
Scissors have been mentioned already, they sometimes work, too.
In the 109 I think the defense is fairly limited. The plane is fast and a good climber, so if the bandit is still a bit away you may extend in a shallow climb. Against Soviet aircraft you can also dive away, as the 109 has a higher dive limit than contemporary Soviet fighters. If this doesn't work, I think you'll have to fight it out. The 109 has a poor high speed handling which means in your defense you'll be limited to slow/medium speed maneuvers. Against some planes, namely the Spitfire, there isn't much you can do they can't do better. Not many planes can follow the 109 into a slow speed climb near stall speed. However, this is dangerous to do if the other guy can still fire at you. So hard turns at medium speeds will probably work best, make sure you don't fly them level because then you'll provide an easy target again.
In the Spitfire you can do a lot of things, and frankly the best maneuvre depends on the opposition. Against the 109, dive so you pick up speed - your high speed handling is far superior to the 109's. Once you're fast, roll, turn or something - he won't be able to follow you. Against the 190 it is far more difficult, but again a good measure of speed is advisable, so your maneuvres have an effect. Focke Wulfs can't really stay and fight, so if you just manage to dodge a couple of passes, they'll have to give up or end up too low and slow. Any maneuvre that doesn't allow for a good lead calculation is suitable. This means you'll have to use at least two of your controls so your flightpath doesn't become predictable - say you roll 90 to the right, turn to the right 90 and then you roll inverted and pull through, ending up going 90 left from your original course. This is pretty difficult to hit.

Don't fly the same maneuvre twice in a row. When it come predictable, it is far less effective. In that sense, don't forget you can also push the stick, not just pull. Many folks will assume you go right if you bank right, so if you push the stick and go left instead, it often will buy you a second. Sometimes that is all you need.

Eventually, you'll have to learn what works and what doesn't. Don't let folks get onto your six. When they are, be untouchable or unpredictable.

SterlingX
09-29-2009, 02:39 PM
Picture the gunsight. Imagine an a/c going around in a vertical loop 500m ahead of you. Imagine he is at 9 o'clock in the loop circle.
That's it, basically - he's a small target because the wings a parallel to your direction of movement and the lead required to hit him puts him beneath the cowl.
So, when someone is making a run on you from your 6, turn left 90 deg and pull up, where possible.

Apart from that and ideally, the best defense in most situations is to point your guns at the attacker, i.e. make it a head-on, if there is time for that.

psykopatsak
09-29-2009, 02:42 PM
thanks for the answers so far, interesting.


i knwo fully well there's no magic omfg manouver (though the one in "the blue devil" biggles chapter would be nice), but i was more asking for general tips, and mostly about the Spit and FW, as there already is a very good guide on the BF109.

the spit is very manouverable on lower alt, and can with some speed do almost any manouver, but i have had no sucsess pressing th FW109 to the maximum, as it feels slow on the engine, not that fast in the elevators, though pretty fast on the roll.

JtD
09-29-2009, 02:53 PM
Don't give up the altitude in the Fw. When you're slow and low, you're dead. It's just not the fighter for that type of fight.

Don't go into silly deck chases that take you towards the enemy, don't try to stall fight the opponent down low. With very few exceptions, you should not go below an energy state that allows you to reach 2000m in a steep zoom climb. In the Fw more than in almost any other plane, the initial altitude determines the outcome of a fight.

TinyTim
09-29-2009, 02:58 PM
Knowledge is the deadliest weapon. Know your aircraft and its capabilities. Know the attacker.

Then do something where your plane will outperform your opponents.

Fw-190 - can outdive and outrun most historical opponents (save P-47 and P-51). Can outroll them all.

Spitfire - can outturn them all (save the Ki-43). Can outclimb the 190, but not the 109.

Bf-109 can outdive most opponents (all russian birds + spitfire), but NOT the P-51 and P-47, these it can outclimb and outturn.

In a nutshell: Fw190 is a diver, 109 is a climber, Spit is a turner. Virtually nothing can beat these three in their respective areas, save some exceptions.

Of course, to use dive, you should never fly low. That's begging to be shot down.

na85
09-29-2009, 03:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by psykopatsak:
thanks for the answers so far, interesting.


i knwo fully well there's no magic omfg manouver (though the one in "the blue devil" biggles chapter would be nice), but i was more asking for general tips, and mostly about the Spit and FW, as there already is a very good guide on the BF109.

the spit is very manouverable on lower alt, and can with some speed do almost any manouver, but i have had no sucsess pressing th FW109 to the maximum, as it feels slow on the engine, not that fast in the elevators, though pretty fast on the roll. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For the FW, fly it fast, high, and straight. Turn only when you have to. FWs also need a lot of space, so more often than not you'll be making repeated passes and then zooming away until he's barely more than a dot.

The FW is also a lousy lone-wolf plane. To really succeed you need a wingman.

As for the spit, a lot of people think it's a great turner but if you watch the really really good spit pilots, you'll find that they actually don't turn that much.

general_kalle
09-29-2009, 03:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TinyTim:
Knowledge is the deadliest weapon. Know your aircraft and its capabilities. Know the attacker.

Then do something where your plane will outperform your opponents.

Fw-190 - can outdive and outrun most historical opponents (save P-47 and P-51). Can outroll them all. <span class="ev_code_RED">Depends on altitude</span>

Spitfire - can outturn them all (save the Ki-43). Can outclimb the 190, but not the 109.
<span class="ev_code_RED">A6M zero and Ki43 will outturn it. also Me109F4 can come really close.</span>

Bf-109 can outdive most opponents (all russian birds + spitfire), but NOT the P-51 and P-47, these it can outclimb and outturn.

In a nutshell: Fw190 is a diver, 109 is a climber, Spit is a turner. Virtually nothing can beat these three in their respective areas, save some exceptions.

Of course, to use dive, you should never fly low. That's begging to be shot down. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


theres no recipe or instruktion that will work.
Dogfighting is a fluent ever changing enviroment where nothing is the same the next second. therefore 100 of variables comes into play when jugding what to do...however there are still general tips.

one is to maneuver as to present the enemy with as difficult a shot as possible or even spoil his shot if possible.

M_Gunz
09-29-2009, 03:48 PM
Barrel roll is not bad but will slow you down. WTH, anything but straight or dive will slow you down unless you
have more throttle to use and that will not speed you up fast enough. Beyond that as above it depends on your
plane, the enemy plane and much more how good each pilot is. The climbing spiral may save you in some cases.

On your tail and presumed closing or he probably wouldn't be there -- much of what would save you for a short
while will also make things worse soon after.

BEST TACTIC -- have a good wingman or team, lone wolf often becomes the hunted.

trashcanUK
09-30-2009, 07:35 AM
M_Gunz:

"BEST TACTIC -- have a good wingman or team, lone wolf often becomes the hunted."

This, plus get on voice comms.
It gives you better teamwork, SA and more defensive options.

stalkervision
09-30-2009, 07:43 AM
spiral dive. I don't believe any fighter can shoot you in a spiral dive. That for a start.

M_Gunz
09-30-2009, 12:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by trashcanUK:
M_Gunz:

"BEST TACTIC -- have a good wingman or team, lone wolf often becomes the hunted."

This, plus get on voice comms.
It gives you better teamwork, SA and more defensive options. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I have experience of being deaf while trying to fly with my own squad. It ruins the experience.

Nooble_savage
10-01-2009, 01:29 PM
It's very hard as a new player to outturn the kind of guys who tend to end up on your six online, regardless of plane set. It's not until you have a good grasp of concepts/variables such as corner speed, turn radius vs turn rate, etc, how they relate to dogfighting and what the actual values of those are for your a/c and the opponent's respectively, that you can actually capitalize on your a/c's comparative advantage. "Turn hard!" means different things to people with different skills.

But to make a long story short, all else equal (co-E), if he's on your six, scissors is probably the only thing that can save you. Maybe. Generally speaking, use flatter scissors with a turn fighter vs an energy fighter. Rolling scissors if the opposite.

JtD makes a very good point above. Put the effort into understanding why they get on your six rather than how to get out of that situation. It's better to start out there. Because even experienced pilots can have big troubles with shaking off a pursuer. But if you screw up already at the merge, he'll be on your six before you know it. It's all a game of chess. There is an opening, a mid-play and an end play. If you don't get moving until the ending and are stuck with a disadvantage there, you tend to lose. Just like in chess.

Unfortunately, it doesn't quite make things easier that the guy on your six is likely to be part of a wing and even if you shake him his friend is next to dive on you. New players generally don't fly with a wingman. Experienced players generally do. It comes with how you develop as an online pilot and how you grow into the community and get to know people. There is nobody to fly with when you're new. The irony is that flying wing against a solo opponent is easymode, but it's the newbie who has to take on the real challenge.

psykopatsak
10-01-2009, 02:22 PM
well, i know how they got there. they were flying high, do drop down on someone busy shooting somone other, like me, who just dropped down a few seconds earlier...

and, no i usually dont fly with wingmen, since i do not use any teamspeak. so, im a lone wolf. i have played flight sims since i was seven i think, but IL was so hard in comparision to the others (MCFS1 and 3) that the old ones got boring, and so did PF. until i bought the all iclusive on a sale, and dug up my joystick.

i know very well how i want to fly, problems is that IL2 is very hard/realistic to fly, so i usually just stalls...

na85
10-01-2009, 03:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nooble_savage:

But to make a long story short, all else equal (co-E), if he's on your six, scissors is probably the only thing that can save you. Maybe. Generally speaking, use flatter scissors with a turn fighter vs an energy fighter. Rolling scissors if the opposite. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If he's already on your 6, a scissors is not going to save you.

A scissors (flat or rolling) is only appropriate when the opponent crosses your tail (i.e. the potential for an overshoot exists).

M_Gunz
10-01-2009, 04:50 PM
barrel roll can be pretty hard to hit and gives you initiative on the next move. But there are no guarantees once
you're in that position, the enemy simply has more options and you better hope he doesn't know them all or is slow.

WTE_Galway
10-01-2009, 05:12 PM
This one mainly works if your flying agile "crap planes" against heavier late war favorites.

If you lose less altitude in a Split S than your opponent get down near the deck and Split S at a height that has you almost CFT, he will likely do a shallow diving turn after you so turn into him.

DKoor
10-01-2009, 06:06 PM
Not trying to play smart but...

Should end with something like "if someone managed to maneuver on your tail you already lose".

Maybe not true for every single case you may encounter, but after some time you will realize that this is true. The guy who managed to gain a solution on your tail is often better at gunnery too.

In the end equation is clear... this is a game after all, not a real thing where the final result was much more random.

M_Gunz
10-01-2009, 10:22 PM
I've ducked BnZ's before, there are different kinds of "on your tail" with one being "at much greater speed" and another
being "at or near co-speed". What works with one has much less chance with the other, both ways. Also the differences
between planes are not the same in those two cases. For example; co-speed, if your plane turns significantly better or
has higher thrust to weight at that particular speed then you should be able to turn the tables if you survive the first
move. That's the flip side of never getting co-speed with a better at that speed turning plane like a P-51 trying to
follow a 109 at 280 kph or less, or a 190 trying the same with a Spitfire. You might get one good shot.

K_Freddie
10-02-2009, 04:11 PM
If you're bounced, or pick a fight against a 'rotte'/pair (or more) of enemies, the odds will be stacked against you - this is not to say that you cannot pull it off, but in these situations speed and advantage always helps.

With a 1-vs-1 setup, although it generally better to hold the advantage, the better pilot will most likely win, no matter the vantage position.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

M_Gunz
10-02-2009, 11:58 PM
You can use his greater speed against him if he is moving faster than his instantaneous corner speed. He can't turn
to get a lead on you without pulling much higher G's than you while trading energy for angle at a much higher rate,
just because you're slower.
Long ago in another sim I found it best to be moving as fast as you can sustain your hardest turn when facing oppos
from above. You can be rising in an open spiral, just don't go slower than... for some 400+ kph, while you're at it.
He will still be going faster when he comes down, coming down from 500 or 1000 m higher kind of faster. I found it's
best to be crossing his nose instead of trying trying to get him off your six but hey no one is perfect and it's only
one strike right?
So unless you also got a strike by getting low before extending and didn't get a strike on getting slow you might still
get to base. Your attacker isn't perfect either, just hope he ain't having a better day than you. Sometimes you eat
bear and sometimes the bear eats you. And sometimes it's wolves in pairs or in a pack, I wonder how many DF players
even know when they've been teamed? The ones that get shot down so often they don't notice anything different http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

FoundryWork
10-04-2009, 09:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by psykopatsak:
so, what evasive manouvers do you find the most effective? i'm asking because i recently started to fly online, and i often find myselft with hostiles on the tail, and i have a very hard time to shake them. im mostly flying the BF109, Focke wulf and spitfire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You should "mostly fly" one plane for starters.

Then you should worry about what you do to get them on your tail in the first place and stop it.

You can forget about shaking them off your tail, because this sim has been around for eight years, and that means that a lot of the "hostiles" that end up on your tail that may have one to several more years experience than you, will be better than you for a long, long time to come.....

No charge for the pep talk!

Nooble_savage
10-06-2009, 12:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by na85:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nooble_savage:

But to make a long story short, all else equal (co-E), if he's on your six, scissors is probably the only thing that can save you. Maybe. Generally speaking, use flatter scissors with a turn fighter vs an energy fighter. Rolling scissors if the opposite. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If he's already on your 6, a scissors is not going to save you.

A scissors (flat or rolling) is only appropriate when the opponent crosses your tail (i.e. the potential for an overshoot exists). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd say it depends. And you can create overshoots, which is essentially a stall fight.

If equal a/c, co-E and he's in guns range solidly on your six, sure it's not gonna work well. But then nothing else will either, absolutely nothing except luck.

What I referred to is what to do in the situation moments before he's solidly on your six and about to press the trigger. Until that point tail crossing angle is something you have at least some freedom to set up. (If you didn't then, by analogy, all merges would be head-on crap shoots too.)

If circumstances are different and you're not about to get blown up just yet, I still argue scissors is the only tool you have if the objective is to turn the tables. Never said it's a very good tool.

Split-S'ing to dive away, as was mentioned in the thread, won't turn any tables although it can give you decent chance to get out. But not if you're flying early-mid war reds and not if you're on the deck already. And again, not if he is solidly on your six, in which case you can try a vertical scissors. Not that it's guaranteed to work by any means, but what can you do if you can't compete in dive speed?