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View Full Version : "kensei doesn't have a better dodge attack than assassins"



PepsiBeastin
05-23-2018, 01:25 AM
Yet in this situation, he would've circled around the warden about 27 miles out before getting a free hit, whilst orochi's dodge attack gets tracked by a shoulder bash. the undodgeable has become the one not dodging. I like how orochi's "rework" has done nothing to help him open turtles, as I had to sit through three rounds of this dude spamming shoulder bash. If I tried to use riptide, he'd cancel and parry, and if I tried storm rush, he'd just cancel and turtle up to block.

https://i.imgur.com/rkwrhIm.gif

SphericalChip53
05-23-2018, 06:52 AM
Heavy dash attacks (Kensei and Shaman) should be removed from the game, period, because they're completely counter-active to the whole point of dash attacks. It's not even a debate about "oh just parry it blah blah blah," it's the actual essence and purpose of a move.

Siegfried-Z
05-23-2018, 04:56 PM
Heavy dash attacks (Kensei and Shaman) should be removed from the game, period, because they're completely counter-active to the whole point of dash attacks. It's not even a debate about "oh just parry it blah blah blah," it's the actual essence and purpose of a move.

Remove Dash attacks from the Kensei kits and he is as free kill as minions man...

KitingFatKidsEZ
05-23-2018, 06:49 PM
whilst orochi's dodge attack gets tracked by a shoulder bash. the undodgeable has become the one not dodging.

You dodged the last shoulder way too early. Thats why you got hit. No other reason.

Watch the video while its buffering. You get baited by him running towards you. Youre not reacting to the bash.

C4Phaze
05-23-2018, 09:30 PM
He shouldn't have a dash attack to begin with for the sole reason hes a Vanguard. Since his rework his feint switch ups along with Hyper Armor are ridiculous on their own. He can easily stand against any hero now. The problem with his dash stems from multiple points that create the issue:

1) that dash distance is OP AF
2) the I-Frames...
3) attack delay
4) long reach
5) its a heavy...

All of it together create a move that's pretty safe to use and easily effective and spam-able against up to 3 opponents at once. This move alone can win games.

Dash distance needs to be reduced and the I-frames have to be removed (or reduced). If not this then nerf any of the other points.

XJadeDragoonX
05-23-2018, 10:08 PM
No point in posting about kensei unfortunately. All the kensei mains show up and claim you basically need to get good and that's he's perfectly balanced. Even though he's definitely overpowered lol.

SangLong524
05-23-2018, 11:32 PM
Which official channel states frankly that a vanguard cannot have dash attack? Besides your official vocal "channel", of course, I wouldn't give a **** about that. My kensei is pushing 30, Shugoki 20, orochi near 20 and the other 3 saumurais are 10 and above along with most knights above 10 with lawbringer and conqueror above 15. Based on some of your brilliant logic, I guess I am a "kensei main". Pfff, such term indicates your lack of adaptations to play styles and their understandings.
Back to the point, kensei dash does move an extremely wide range. But the move can be anticipated that will either result in a dash strike or a guardbreak. Try feinting then guardbreak, or parry if they really go for a hit. I won't go into the machanic of of these things, it's been a year.
As for orochi and assassin dashes, maybe they can make these blue dashes un-guardbreakable? But blockable/parriable

Vakris_One
05-24-2018, 01:13 AM
Yet in this situation, he would've circled around the warden about 27 miles out before getting a free hit, whilst orochi's dodge attack gets tracked by a shoulder bash. the undodgeable has become the one not dodging. I like how orochi's "rework" has done nothing to help him open turtles, as I had to sit through three rounds of this dude spamming shoulder bash. If I tried to use riptide, he'd cancel and parry, and if I tried storm rush, he'd just cancel and turtle up to block.

https://i.imgur.com/rkwrhIm.gif
You went for the dodge strike too early and that's why his SB hit you. It happens. Kensei has more leeway because he can delay his strike thus he can risk going a bit early but he would also get caught if the bash hit him in the vulnerable part of his startup. Orochi's rework wasn't intended to let him open up turtles any easier. It was intended to strengthen his counter attack power by giving him more follow up potential after a punish with his new tri-directional 400ms lights. His new storm rush can be used as an initiator now for his chains instead of just relying on top light.

Orochi can now do damage in bursts in a reliable manner, which was the main focus of his rework. It was not intended for him to open up turtles with otherwise they would have given him an unblockable or CC move.


No point in posting about kensei unfortunately. All the kensei mains show up and claim you basically need to get good and that's he's perfectly balanced. Even though he's definitely overpowered lol.
I think what you meant to say is that people post different opinions that disagree with yours, no? "Definitely overpowered" is just your own personal opinion at the end of the day and it is not one that is supported by the majority of the competitive community so honestly you should be expecting people to disagree with you when you are being factually incorrect.

To be frank, every time a "Kensei is OP" thread title pops up just take a look at the calibre of posters who suddenly come out of the woodwork simply to dump on a hero they now hate because he actually takes brain power to defeat ever since he is no longer the second most gimped hero in the game. Most of these people are either genuinely inexperienced with Kensei and thus unable to grasp how he works yet or are being purposefully disingenuous in an attempt to get a hero they hate fighting nerfed on purpose, which is a rather toxic way to behave.

ChampionRuby50g
05-24-2018, 01:54 AM
Remove Dash attacks from the Kensei kits and he is as free kill as minions man...

Mustn’t be a very good Kensei if not having a dash attacks makes you easier to kill than C Tier heroes.

Siegfried-Z
05-24-2018, 10:43 AM
Mustn’t be a very good Kensei if not having a dash attacks makes you easier to kill than C Tier heroes.

Thanks to judge so fast.

I am rep 18 Kensei with a K/D (not KAD) ratio of 2 so i believe i am good with.

But, he is strong because ur opponent has to be carefull while attacking u if he don't want to be punished with Dash.

If Kensei would not have this, he would be too static and with what ? a good zone and a feint on top heavy which takes 1sec ..? Comon' .. Kensei is good now because of each elements of his kit.

D3dicatedSrv3rz
05-24-2018, 02:53 PM
Remove Dash attacks from the Kensei kits and he is as free kill as minions man...

If raider can get by without dodge heavies kensei will be just fine

Arekonator
05-24-2018, 02:55 PM
If you complain about the slowest dodge attack in the game, your opinion is invalid. simple as that.

Siegfried-Z
05-24-2018, 03:25 PM
If raider can get by without dodge heavies kensei will be just fine

First, Raider has a dodge whith choice between GB or Stun .. (just have to be used with the timing)
Second, do you really compare Raider and Kensei on a static fight ? Raider stun feint is far faster than any Kensei feint and Raider can start Unblocable from nothing or after every single hit what Kensei can't do..

To finish, without Dash, Kensei unblocable could only come as a Third hit (:D) or after a GB + Stun.... so it would be useless.

He is fine like that.

D3dicatedSrv3rz
05-24-2018, 03:31 PM
You dodged the last shoulder way too early. Thats why you got hit. No other reason.

Watch the video while its buffering. You get baited by him running towards you. Youre not reacting to the bash.

Though this may be true would this have ever happened to a kensei

Vakris_One
05-24-2018, 04:28 PM
If raider can get by without dodge heavies kensei will be just fine
Raider has dodge GB. Kensei has dodge heavy and Warden has dodge shoulder bash. This isn't directed at you but I honestly wonder why there are still people who complain about how Kensei's vanguard trait should be removed when the dash > vanguard option is a thing that all 3 Vanguards have.

All 3 of them have always had their intended purposes but it's very interesting how the Kensei only started getting hate about it after his rework. People seemed to be perfectly okay with Kensei when he was trash tier. It speaks volumes about a certain mentality in the community.


Though this may be true would this have ever happened to a kensei
It's possible if the Kensei launches it early and gets caught right at the startup but obviously he gets more leeway because he can delay the strike.

KitingFatKidsEZ
05-24-2018, 06:23 PM
This whole thread is so alien.
Look at me missplaying with Orochi. Btw please nerf Kensei because of that. Like wut?
At least show the same thing with Kensei side by side if youre trying to make a point.

Out of all playable characters Kensei has the least cheese. No easy pressure. ****ty feats. Atrocious running speed. Ultra slow attacks. Hes so simple to play against. His dash has ****ty startup is super easy to grab and has long recovery.

Like did you all die to an army of Kenseis who just spam dodge attacks all the time while you full commit to heavies every time you recover? wtf is going on?

ChampionRuby50g
05-24-2018, 10:10 PM
Thanks to judge so fast.

I am rep 18 Kensei with a K/D (not KAD) ratio of 2 so i believe i am good with.

But, he is strong because ur opponent has to be carefull while attacking u if he don't want to be punished with Dash.

If Kensei would not have this, he would be too static and with what ? a good zone and a feint on top heavy which takes 1sec ..? Comon' .. Kensei is good now because of each elements of his kit.

You’re welcome.

You may be good with Kensei with a decent K/D, but my point was if you truly believe that removing his dash attack would make him the worst hero in the game (which is exactly what you are implying when you said “he is as free kill as minions”) you mustn’t have a good understanding of the game. Of course he wouldn’t be as good as he is now, but by no means would he drop to the worst hero. He would still remain in the top % of heroes. Like you said, Kensei is good because of each kit element he has. You’re also implying that the dash attack is now the only thing that keeps him good with your last statement. Remove the dash attack, he still has a good kit. I believe the dash attack needs to be toned down. IMO Vanguards shouldn’t even have a dash attack at all. The range Kensei has on his, with the apparent ability to delay it is crazy and makes it better than many of the assassins, which shouldn’t be the case. Assassins shouldn’t be outclassed in dash attacks, that’s their thing.

Arekonator
05-24-2018, 11:51 PM
All the vanguards had dash attack in some form since the begining. Furthermore, they all have dash attack that goes with the theme of their kit. But after kensei gets a rework (while his dash attack gets only minimal changes) its suddenly an issue?
Some people in this thread believing you can just spam it and get easy 1v3 win, just what? Every mediocre player with at least two working braincells will tear you apart if you resort to that.

D3dicatedSrv3rz
05-25-2018, 02:46 AM
First, Raider has a dodge whith choice between GB or Stun .. (just have to be used with the timing)
Second, do you really compare Raider and Kensei on a static fight ? Raider stun feint is far faster than any Kensei feint and Raider can start Unblocable from nothing or after every single hit what Kensei can't do..

To finish, without Dash, Kensei unblocable could only come as a Third hit (:D) or after a GB + Stun.... so it would be useless.

He is fine like that.

I do very easily compare raider to kensei in a fight. The timing of raider's 2 dodge mechanic options is locked, kensei's heavy isn't. Kensei has hyper armor to tank 2 things his counterparts lack. and range to catch retreating opponents. From top heavies he has a plethora of options: let fly, GB/pommel, side light, side heavy and dodge (WTF). Only feints raider has is the stunning tap from heavies and and his UB, There is no situation i see a raider of the same skill of the kensei he is fighting consistently taking taking the win as often as said kensei. True raider may be a bit faster but kensei has literally everything else: HA, plethora of soft feints, a UB that may be limited to a finisher but doesnt cost half a bar of stamina, and the best dodge in the game due to the distance kensei travels and his superior block dodge mechanic

D3dicatedSrv3rz
05-25-2018, 03:31 AM
All the vanguards had dash attack in some form since the begining. Furthermore, they all have dash attack that goes with the theme of their kit. But after kensei gets a rework (while his dash attack gets only minimal changes) its suddenly an issue?
Some people in this thread believing you can just spam it and get easy 1v3 win, just what? Every mediocre player with at least two working braincells will tear you apart if you resort to that.

The problem many of us have is the fact that his dash attack dodges so much better than even the assassins and can be delayed for some dumb reason. The window in a dodge attack when a kensei is safe (discounting Kensei's superior block mechanic) is larger that most heroes if not all either bc the animation is the longest or bc of the absurd distance he travels in the dodge

Vakris_One
05-25-2018, 04:26 AM
You’re welcome.

You may be good with Kensei with a decent K/D, but my point was if you truly believe that removing his dash attack would make him the worst hero in the game (which is exactly what you are implying when you said “he is as free kill as minions”) you mustn’t have a good understanding of the game. Of course he wouldn’t be as good as he is now, but by no means would he drop to the worst hero. He would still remain in the top % of heroes. Like you said, Kensei is good because of each kit element he has. You’re also implying that the dash attack is now the only thing that keeps him good with your last statement. Remove the dash attack, he still has a good kit. I believe the dash attack needs to be toned down. IMO Vanguards shouldn’t even have a dash attack at all. The range Kensei has on his, with the apparent ability to delay it is crazy and makes it better than many of the assassins, which shouldn’t be the case. Assassins shouldn’t be outclassed in dash attacks, that’s their thing.
So you propose we get rid of the Vanguard's dash attacks? Two of whom rely specifically on their dash attack to allow them to get into their mixups and mind games - Warden and Kensei - and the third, Raider, who relies on his dash guardbreak to initiate his most potent punish as a counter attack. How will you compensate these 3 heroes if you intend on taking away such a core piece of their kit?


I do very easily compare raider to kensei in a fight. The timing of raider's 2 dodge mechanic options is locked, kensei's heavy isn't. Kensei has hyper armor to tank 2 things his counterparts lack. and range to catch retreating opponents. From top heavies he has a plethora of options: let fly, GB/pommel, side light, side heavy and dodge (WTF). Only feints raider has is the stunning tap from heavies and and his UB, There is no situation i see a raider of the same skill of the kensei he is fighting consistently taking taking the win as often as said kensei. True raider may be a bit faster but kensei has literally everything else: HA, plethora of soft feints, a UB that may be limited to a finisher but doesnt cost half a bar of stamina, and the best dodge in the game due to the distance kensei travels and his superior block dodge mechanic
Kensei has been reworked whereas Raider has not. Before the rework they used to be more on par but with Raider actually being the stronger character. To truly compare them again you would need to wait and see where Raider is after his own rework.


The problem many of us have is the fact that his dash attack dodges so much better than even the assassins and can be delayed for some dumb reason. The window in a dodge attack when a kensei is safe (discounting Kensei's superior block mechanic) is larger that most heroes if not all either bc the animation is the longest or bc of the absurd distance he travels in the dodge
What do you propose to be done about this?

ChampionRuby50g
05-25-2018, 06:09 AM
So you propose we get rid of the Vanguard's dash attacks? Two of whom rely specifically on their dash attack to allow them to get into their mixups and mind games - Warden and Kensei - and the third, Raider, who relies on his dash guardbreak to initiate his most potent punish as a counter attack. How will you compensate these 3 heroes if you intend on taking away such a core piece of their kit?

I’m a bit confused to why Wardens SB is considered a dash attack. Like I get you can dodge and initiate it, but the move itself is a bash and what follows is the attack. If Kensei was to have a dash attack, why should it be better than some Assassins when it’s the Assassins forte? For Raider, guardbreaking isn’t an attack, it does no damage. (like Wardens SB). It hasn’t happened when I played Raider, or a Raider hasn’t done it against me in recent memory when they use their dodge GB/Stunning tap to completely dodge my attacks on reaction.

I don’t intend on removing the dash attack, IMO it isn’t needed in the Vanguard class. But if it was going to stay, I’d suggest that Kensei has some range reduced, and I feel like he shouldn’t be able to dodge attacks with it. Same with Wardens SB if it is to be considered a dash attack. (Not able to dodge attacks)

Having dash attacks is one of the things that makes assassins unique, and if Vanguards also have them doesn’t that nullify that feeling? Kensei has already been reworked, Warden and Raider haven’t. The dev team will be reworking them, and they may choose to remove or completely change these moves around, or leave them as it is.

If we did want to remove the dash attacks, then that would require either buffing up weaker aspects of their respective kits, or entire new moves to compensate. Which would mean either more mo-cap or something like the Centurion treatment, when he got the light-heavy move.

Siegfried-Z
05-25-2018, 09:51 AM
You’re welcome.

You may be good with Kensei with a decent K/D, but my point was if you truly believe that removing his dash attack would make him the worst hero in the game (which is exactly what you are implying when you said “he is as free kill as minions”) you mustn’t have a good understanding of the game. Of course he wouldn’t be as good as he is now, but by no means would he drop to the worst hero. He would still remain in the top % of heroes. Like you said, Kensei is good because of each kit element he has. You’re also implying that the dash attack is now the only thing that keeps him good with your last statement. Remove the dash attack, he still has a good kit. I believe the dash attack needs to be toned down. IMO Vanguards shouldn’t even have a dash attack at all. The range Kensei has on his, with the apparent ability to delay it is crazy and makes it better than many of the assassins, which shouldn’t be the case. Assassins shouldn’t be outclassed in dash attacks, that’s their thing.

So polit man.

I say that because this is a fact that he would be far less efficient without his dash.

Why ? because his dash is not only about the dmg dash itself but this moove allow you to initiate a lot of the options he has in his Kit.

So without, i really believe he would came back to low tiers. This is still my point.

Siegfried-Z
05-25-2018, 10:01 AM
I do very easily compare raider to kensei in a fight. The timing of raider's 2 dodge mechanic options is locked, kensei's heavy isn't. Kensei has hyper armor to tank 2 things his counterparts lack. and range to catch retreating opponents. From top heavies he has a plethora of options: let fly, GB/pommel, side light, side heavy and dodge (WTF). Only feints raider has is the stunning tap from heavies and and his UB, There is no situation i see a raider of the same skill of the kensei he is fighting consistently taking taking the win as often as said kensei. True raider may be a bit faster but kensei has literally everything else: HA, plethora of soft feints, a UB that may be limited to a finisher but doesnt cost half a bar of stamina, and the best dodge in the game due to the distance kensei travels and his superior block dodge mechanic

But man a lot of the things u talk about are coming most of the time after a dash attack .. and are more difficult to use without.

So as we are comparing raider and kensei in a "static" fight, without including dash.. you're out of the subject.

What a lot of ppl don't understand is that on the paper Kensei has everything nice to have in this game.

But his whole mecanics makes him easy to punish and to react on most of the things. So he is good yes but don't deserve so much hate

Siegfried-Z
05-25-2018, 10:12 AM
I’m a bit confused to why Wardens SB is considered a dash attack. Like I get you can dodge and initiate it, but the move itself is a bash and what follows is the attack. If Kensei was to have a dash attack, why should it be better than some Assassins when it’s the Assassins forte? For Raider, guardbreaking isn’t an attack, it does no damage. (like Wardens SB). It hasn’t happened when I played Raider, or a Raider hasn’t done it against me in recent memory when they use their dodge GB/Stunning tap to completely dodge my attacks on reaction.

I don’t intend on removing the dash attack, IMO it isn’t needed in the Vanguard class. But if it was going to stay, I’d suggest that Kensei has some range reduced, and I feel like he shouldn’t be able to dodge attacks with it. Same with Wardens SB if it is to be considered a dash attack. (Not able to dodge attacks)



Really ? are you really saying warden SB can't dodge attacks ? :D wow

It can dodge ! And it is not punishable as you can't parry it and it can be deleted .. the double lights is guaranteed after that and the vortex comes ...

By saying that, i can't understand how ppl can say the kensei dash is OP lol

The proble is more about the gameplay.. i use before to play warden and i stopped when i saw almost all the wardens turtling as hell ! While it can be an offensive hero

ChampionRuby50g
05-25-2018, 10:53 AM
Really ? are you really saying warden SB can't dodge attacks ? :D wow

It can dodge ! And it is not punishable as you can't parry it and it can be deleted .. the double lights is guaranteed after that and the vortex comes ...

By saying that, i can't understand how ppl can say the kensei dash is OP lol

The proble is more about the gameplay.. i use before to play warden and i stopped when i saw almost all the wardens turtling as hell ! While it can be an offensive hero

Read that post again, properly and carefully, and actually show me when and where I said “Wardens SB can’t dodge attacks”.

I said something along the lines off “dash attacks aren’t needed in the Vanguard class, but if dash attacks was going to stay that these changes should occur to these heroes...Kenseis shouldn’t be able to dodge attacks, and that Wardens SB should also not be able to dodge attacks. So please, before you “wow?!? really!! xD lol fail” at me, learn to read posts properly.

Vakris_One
05-25-2018, 02:58 PM
I’m a bit confused to why Wardens SB is considered a dash attack. Like I get you can dodge and initiate it, but the move itself is a bash and what follows is the attack. If Kensei was to have a dash attack, why should it be better than some Assassins when it’s the Assassins forte? For Raider, guardbreaking isn’t an attack, it does no damage. (like Wardens SB). It hasn’t happened when I played Raider, or a Raider hasn’t done it against me in recent memory when they use their dodge GB/Stunning tap to completely dodge my attacks on reaction.

I don’t intend on removing the dash attack, IMO it isn’t needed in the Vanguard class. But if it was going to stay, I’d suggest that Kensei has some range reduced, and I feel like he shouldn’t be able to dodge attacks with it. Same with Wardens SB if it is to be considered a dash attack. (Not able to dodge attacks)

Having dash attacks is one of the things that makes assassins unique, and if Vanguards also have them doesn’t that nullify that feeling? Kensei has already been reworked, Warden and Raider haven’t. The dev team will be reworking them, and they may choose to remove or completely change these moves around, or leave them as it is.

If we did want to remove the dash attacks, then that would require either buffing up weaker aspects of their respective kits, or entire new moves to compensate. Which would mean either more mo-cap or something like the Centurion treatment, when he got the light-heavy move.
Considering that Assassins have some of the strongest kits in the game to be talking about nerfing Vanguards feels a little off to me. Assassins already have the most well defined identities in the game. Vanguards are like a halfway house between an Assassin and a Heavy and Heavies simply have no definable class identity. Hybrids are basically different variations on a Vanguard since the Vanguard itself is already a hybrid of sorts. In short, outside of Assassins this game's class identities are all over the place. So I don't think it would be right to hog some of the best kits in the game only for Assassins and screw the rest because Assassins already called dibs on having a clearly defined identity with these moves. The devs would first have to present Vanguards and Heavies with their very own unique identity specific moves before arbitraily deciding that dodge attacks are only for assassins now.

The youtuber Mege recently made a video about his thoughts on a Warden rework and he had some interesting ideas on shoulder bash. It would still be a dash attack but it would no longer loop into an infinite chain. Instead of guarranteeing double side light a successful shoulder bash would lead into a single guarranteed hit that does not chain into anything. The hit would be Warden switching to a half swording technique and bashing or stabbing the enemy for some guarranteed damage. Essentially it eliminates the annoying part of Warden's vortex loop while still keeping the identity of shoulder bash. He also suggested that a fully charged shoulder bash leads into the Warden lifting up his sword, charging forward a bit and cutting down. The strike would be unblockable and have hyper armour but cannot be cancelled out of.

Raider's GB leads into an attack, quite a powerful one at that - his zone which does 50 damage. It also leads into his shoulder carry which drains a ton of stamina and also guarrantees his high damage zone. He can for sure dodge an attack and GB you in your recovery unless you throw a fast light or go into a chained heavy/light. Raider's dodge punish is objectively much stronger than Kensei's but he can get stuffed out of it if you know to expect it.

Kensei's dash attack is slower and more telegraphed than any assassin's dash attack so I really wouldn't call it better. Literally the only thing people seem to have a problem with is that he can delay the input and I'd say that is the only area that would warrant a look into. To not be able to dodge attacks doesn't make sense and defeats the entire purpose of a dodge attack which is to be a counter attack move. Even the Nobushi's heavy dash attack can dodge just a little bit.

Kensei needs the dodge attack in order to have an optional way into his chain finisher mind game that doesn't involve having to throw out his slow lights and heavies in order to get to his finisher. Without the dodge attack as a chain starter he would have zero pressure from a counter attack punish and he would present no threat whatsoever to being light spammed or attack blitzed to death. Remember that he only has 125 health, that's a whopping 5 health more than an assassin. If he loses the threat from being able to use his counter attack as a way into his finisher mixup then he is pretty much humped against anyone that can apply pressure to him, which by now is more than half the roster with either light spam or unblockable spam or a bit of both.

Turtling up would be his only option. His lights and his heavies are among the slowest in the entire game. His soft feints are entirely reactable with only his pommel strike mind game and his zone offering any real challenge. Take his dash attacks away and you will rarely if ever see a Kensei reach his chain finisher mixup without going out of stamina from all the soft feinting he will have to do just to get there. The Kensei's thing is that he punishes overly aggressive players. I don't see why he should lose his identity when people can very simply learn to fight him smartly instead of wanting to attack spam him and come out the winner.

Siegfried-Z
05-25-2018, 04:08 PM
Read that post again, properly and carefully, and actually show me when and where I said “Wardens SB can’t dodge attacks”.

I said something along the lines off “dash attacks aren’t needed in the Vanguard class, but if dash attacks was going to stay that these changes should occur to these heroes...Kenseis shouldn’t be able to dodge attacks, and that Wardens SB should also not be able to dodge attacks. So please, before you “wow?!? really!! xD lol fail” at me, learn to read posts properly.

Ok, but that's a total nonsense, why vanguard shouldn't be able to .. no point there.. without this the game would be even more about defense and turtling.

And man from the first post you've made in my attention you were irrespectuous and arrogant so don't complain about my "wow or really" pls .

Tyrjo
05-25-2018, 04:17 PM
Raider's GB leads into an attack, quite a powerful one at that - his zone which does 50 damage. It also leads into his shoulder carry which drains a ton of stamina and also guarrantees his high damage zone. He can for sure dodge an attack and GB you in your recovery unless you throw a fast light or go into a chained heavy/light. Raider's dodge punish is objectively much stronger than Kensei's but he can get stuffed out of it if you know to expect it.


Only the comboed zone is 50 dmg, else it's 28 dmg. But you probably knew that already. :)

D3dicatedSrv3rz
05-25-2018, 05:25 PM
Considering that Assassins have some of the strongest kits in the game to be talking about nerfing Vanguards feels a little off to me. Assassins already have the most well defined identities in the game. Vanguards are like a halfway house between an Assassin and a Heavy and Heavies simply have no definable class identity. Hybrids are basically different variations on a Vanguard since the Vanguard itself is already a hybrid of sorts. In short, outside of Assassins this game's class identities are all over the place. So I don't think it would be right to hog some of the best kits in the game only for Assassins and screw the rest because Assassins already called dibs on having a clearly defined identity with these moves. The devs would first have to present Vanguards and Heavies with their very own unique identity specific moves before arbitraily deciding that dodge attacks are only for assassins now.

The youtuber Mege recently made a video about his thoughts on a Warden rework and he had some interesting ideas on shoulder bash. It would still be a dash attack but it would no longer loop into an infinite chain. Instead of guarranteeing double side light a successful shoulder bash would lead into a single guarranteed hit that does not chain into anything. The hit would be Warden switching to a half swording technique and bashing or stabbing the enemy for some guarranteed damage. Essentially it eliminates the annoying part of Warden's vortex loop while still keeping the identity of shoulder bash. He also suggested that a fully charged shoulder bash leads into the Warden lifting up his sword, charging forward a bit and cutting down. The strike would be unblockable and have hyper armour but cannot be cancelled out of.

Raider's GB leads into an attack, quite a powerful one at that - his zone which does 50 damage. It also leads into his shoulder carry which drains a ton of stamina and also guarrantees his high damage zone. He can for sure dodge an attack and GB you in your recovery unless you throw a fast light or go into a chained heavy/light. Raider's dodge punish is objectively much stronger than Kensei's but he can get stuffed out of it if you know to expect it.

Kensei's dash attack is slower and more telegraphed than any assassin's dash attack so I really wouldn't call it better. Literally the only thing people seem to have a problem with is that he can delay the input and I'd say that is the only area that would warrant a look into. To not be able to dodge attacks doesn't make sense and defeats the entire purpose of a dodge attack which is to be a counter attack move. Even the Nobushi's heavy dash attack can dodge just a little bit.

Kensei needs the dodge attack in order to have an optional way into his chain finisher mind game that doesn't involve having to throw out his slow lights and heavies in order to get to his finisher. Without the dodge attack as a chain starter he would have zero pressure from a counter attack punish and he would present no threat whatsoever to being light spammed or attack blitzed to death. Remember that he only has 125 health, that's a whopping 5 health more than an assassin. If he loses the threat from being able to use his counter attack as a way into his finisher mixup then he is pretty much humped against anyone that can apply pressure to him, which by now is more than half the roster with either light spam or unblockable spam or a bit of both.

Turtling up would be his only option. His lights and his heavies are among the slowest in the entire game. His soft feints are entirely reactable with only his pommel strike mind game and his zone offering any real challenge. Take his dash attacks away and you will rarely if ever see a Kensei reach his chain finisher mixup without going out of stamina from all the soft feinting he will have to do just to get there. The Kensei's thing is that he punishes overly aggressive players. I don't see why he should lose his identity when people can very simply learn to fight him smartly instead of wanting to attack spam him and come out the winner.

I will be responding paragraph by paragraph just ot be clear

1) The dodge attacks were supposed to be mained by the assassins with Unblockable mixups being the domain of the rest of the cast at least until they ran out of ideas to make assassins interesting and gave the dlc assassins UB's anyway (I count valk as a cross of a heavy and assassin so her dodge lights make sense) Kensei's version of this assassin move was never supposed to be as good or as versatile as it is now, merely only a comparable option to his counterpart vanguards.

2) Haven't watched the Mege video and probably wouldnt have much to say if i did. I trust his opinion although the bash is the only reason you'd use the double side lights outside of mind games. without the bash as it is im pretty sure the double lights would not be far off from the usefulness of PK's heavies atm

3) I main PK and if I regularly get caught mid dodge by a kensei attack that isnt a poke-light (second chain) or top guard there is no way raider is dodging those attacks

4) The timing is the deal breaker. no one cared when this move was a light and said timing was locked. The timing does two things: makes a telegraphed move hard to react to outside of just blocking it and extends the distance a kensei travels around you to something around at least 110 degrees which is way more than assassins can ever manage putting him in a very safe location. As a Pk i dont even try to guess when the attack comes and just block it and the HA subsequent attack which is the main reason why the dodge-heavy cant even be dodged

5) Maybe, maybe not. many people make warden work with a bash with 3 options (bash, charge, GB) kenseis get three different top heavies with 5 options (let fly, GB/pommel, side light, side heavy and dodge) he as options, range and attacks that catch more dodging opponents than any other character not including GB dodge catching and zones he isnt supposed to apply pressure as well as his counterparts, that why he has 'range'

6) refer to 5

You asked me before what to do about the Kensei, well

1. No more delayed dodge attacks (this should be without quarrel)
2. Reduce the distance kensei travels in his dodge heavy (make it on par or les than the assassins, none of this ending up behind my should crap)
3. Either remove some of his soft feint options or remove the HA on his finishers. Unless the other vanguards get a plethora of options (especially poor warden) this seems just dumb to compare kensei t the two

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Vakris_One
05-25-2018, 08:54 PM
Only the comboed zone is 50 dmg, else it's 28 dmg. But you probably knew that already. :)
I actually didn't know that but thanks for your unecessary passive aggressive attitude. I'm not an expert on Raider, I just know enough about what he can throw and when. When I've been bonked by his zone it's almost always as a result of fudging my parry timing because of his stunning tap mind game and my damage display says "50 damage". So I wrongfully assumed it is always 50 damage, my bad.

As Hanlon's razor goes, "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." :)


I will be responding paragraph by paragraph just ot be clear

1) The dodge attacks were supposed to be mained by the assassins with Unblockable mixups being the domain of the rest of the cast at least until they ran out of ideas to make assassins interesting and gave the dlc assassins UB's anyway (I count valk as a cross of a heavy and assassin so her dodge lights make sense) Kensei's version of this assassin move was never supposed to be as good or as versatile as it is now, merely only a comparable option to his counterpart vanguards.
Let's be frank, other than being able to delay it nothing mechanically significant (other than heavy input) was changed about Kensei's swift strike. The delay is the only thing really what bothers some people. I personally don't see the big deal as a parry is still just as easy to perform on the heavily telegraphed animation of swift strike. The strike animation itself is locked to 700ms. That is plenty of time to react with a parry or in the worse case scenario a block.



2) Haven't watched the Mege video and probably wouldnt have much to say if i did. I trust his opinion although the bash is the only reason you'd use the double side lights outside of mind games. without the bash as it is im pretty sure the double lights would not be far off from the usefulness of PK's heavies atm
He also elaborated that he would make the side light faster, up to 500ms, so as to make it viable from neutral. He pretty much covers everything in detail, well worth a watch as I am not doing it justice with just these brief snippets here and there.



3) I main PK and if I regularly get caught mid dodge by a kensei attack that isnt a poke-light (second chain) or top guard there is no way raider is dodging those attacks
Well PK has objectively one of the worst dodge attacks out of all the assassins so yeah, feels bad man. Maybe she should get the dodge attack delay. My comment wasn't restricted to a Raider vs Kensei matchup though. Raider can punish a whiffed Warden SB or a whiffed Warlord headbutt with his dash GB and if a Kensei throws out just his top light with no follow up and misses then a Raider can dash GB him too if the timing is correct. I've had it happen to me on occassion.



4) The timing is the deal breaker. no one cared when this move was a light and said timing was locked. The timing does two things: makes a telegraphed move hard to react to outside of just blocking it and extends the distance a kensei travels around you to something around at least 110 degrees which is way more than assassins can ever manage putting him in a very safe location. As a Pk i dont even try to guess when the attack comes and just block it and the HA subsequent attack which is the main reason why the dodge-heavy cant even be dodged
I'll give you the extended distance he travels but the rest of it is not of any real significance if you bait him for a parry. As I said above, the attack animation is locked to 700ms meaning that you still have 700ms to make a reaction no matter how much he delays it into his dash. If you are patient and successfully bait a swift strike you should be getting a parry. If you aren't getting that parry with a locked 700ms reaction time then the problem is not with the character it is on you.

Only a character that can trade with hyper armour should be attempting to dodge swift strike. This is simply just part and parcel of knowing how to fight against a Kensei.



5) Maybe, maybe not. many people make warden work with a bash with 3 options (bash, charge, GB) kenseis get three different top heavies with 5 options (let fly, GB/pommel, side light, side heavy and dodge) he as options, range and attacks that catch more dodging opponents than any other character not including GB dodge catching and zones he isnt supposed to apply pressure as well as his counterparts, that why he has 'range'

6) refer to 5
Firstly, Warden is not considered a competitive character. Although many people can work him into advantageous plays they have to work twice as hard as their opponent if their opponent is using an A-tier character. That's not a good place to be in so saying that "well Warden manages just fine" is disingenous. The non-reworked Warden is not the standard to which other characters should be balanced around or strive for. After he gets his rework then we can talk about using him as a baseline standard. Right now Kensei is the baseline standard for the Vanguards, we should want the other 2 Vanguards to be made competitive to him rather than to pull him back down to their sub par level.

The whole point of Kensei's rework was to allow him to apply pressure to turtles because he was getting completely shut down by the most basic defensive play on the count of everything he did being so slow and telegraphed and having nothing that could force a reaction. Most of his stuff is still slow and telegraphed except that now he has a good zone and a soft feint game from neutral instead of just his finishers. His classification has always been that of an adaptable mind game artist. His dodge attack and the extension of his soft feint game are the core elements that allow him to live up to that moniker. Completely remove his dodge attack and he is no longer adaptable. Remove his soft feints and he is no longer a mixup artist.



You asked me before what to do about the Kensei, well

1. No more delayed dodge attacks (this should be without quarrel)
2. Reduce the distance kensei travels in his dodge heavy (make it on par or les than the assassins, none of this ending up behind my should crap)
3. Either remove some of his soft feint options or remove the HA on his finishers. Unless the other vanguards get a plethora of options (especially poor warden) this seems just dumb to compare kensei t the two
1. I don't have a problem either way.

2. Once you remove his delay I don't see the point of reducing his distance. It was never a problem before he got the delay ability so it really won't be a problem without the delay. His distance travelled leads back to his dodge attack animation being a slow 700ms. If you want to shorten the distance he travels you'll have to shorten the attack animation and make the move faster. You can't have it both ways, i.e. slowest and most telegraphed dodge strike in the game while distance travelled is on par or slower than the faster assassin dodge strikes. Either fast attack speed but less distance or slow attack speed but longer distance as a result. Choose one.

3. There's no need to remove any of his soft feints because as I said before, he is supposed to be a mind game artist and the rework was expressly designed to give him that. Removing hyper armour on his heavy finishers means he will never be able to land them as they are far too slow to leave at the mercy of everyone's light attack stuffing him out of it. Honestly, try playing Kensei sometime and you'll quickly understand how silly this sounds. Hyper armour on his light finishers though, it wouldn't be the end of the world if he didn't have it on them but would it make a difference for his opponent? I don't really think so as it's not OP. It's only really useful against ganks, in 1v1 it makes no real difference. Feels more like a "let's take that away just because we can" thing.



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ChampionRuby50g
05-25-2018, 10:39 PM
Ok, but that's a total nonsense, why vanguard shouldn't be able to .. no point there.. without this the game would be even more about defense and turtling.

And man from the first post you've made in my attention you were irrespectuous and arrogant so don't complain about my "wow or really" pls .

I was “complaining”? More like correcting you on been 100% wrong in your eagerness to try and make me look like a fool with your inability to read posts properly, which ended up backfiring on you. That’s pretty arrogant from you too, no?

@Vakris, Dedicated Servers also speaks my mind with his reply at the bottom of this page.