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Knight_Raime
05-22-2018, 07:57 PM
...address centurion and Shinobi AFTER you've updated the OG roster? Both are the worst designed heros in the game. Centurion was the turtle king. and now he's got nothing but absurd punishes that rarely land and breaks the standard rules of combat. Shinobi's mobility was straight insanity and now it's just janky with the back dash nerf. He has no offense of his own, forces most heros into a losing situation if they decide to not turtle, and has over tuned damage numbers.

I know the plan was to only update the OG roster and I know more heros are coming this year. But I think it would be a SERIOUS misstep if you left your very first dlc heros alone. They're the most raw in terms of your ideas to fix issues from ages ago that no longer really exist due to you overhauling the game. I would be 100% fine if you went back to the drawing board with these heros and they played drastically differently once they got reworked.

oh and P.S. Shinobi has a game breaking revenge punish. Should probably be fixed soon. here is the link of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U6cEVjY-cs&feature=youtu.be

UbiJurassic
05-22-2018, 08:09 PM
No promises here, as there a lot of stuff already laid out on our roadmap for the future in For Honor. We're aware that there are players that would like to see the Centurion and the Shinobi given the same treatment as some of the reworked heroes, but there's no plans to do so at this time. We're definitely continuing to keep our eyes on each hero to ensure there is a parity of balance across them,and we'll look to make changes to them where necessary. I'll ensure your comments and any others shared in this thread are noted and passed to the team. :)

Knight_Raime
05-22-2018, 08:21 PM
No promises here, as there a lot of stuff already laid out on our roadmap for the future in For Honor. We're aware that there are players that would like to see the Centurion and the Shinobi given the same treatment as some of the reworked heroes, but there's no plans to do so at this time. We're definitely continuing to keep our eyes on each hero to ensure there is a parity of balance across them,and we'll look to make changes to them where necessary. I'll ensure your comments and any others shared in this thread are noted and passed to the team. :)

It's less of an issue with balance and more so of design. at least for me. They both are functional characters that can work well enough at almost any level. I just don't think they're current design is really healthy. But I understand it's not a priority to fix them. I just hope they do get fixed someday.

Vakris_One
05-23-2018, 12:17 AM
I'm thinking Aramusha needs love before those two. Sorry but that guy might as well not even be in the game anymore. He is just as much a failed experiment as Centurion is in the developer's attempts to create entire characters as a response to the defensive meta. Before they finally wizened up and started actually changing the gameplay mechanics which enabled the defensive meta to be so oppressive.

Much like PK before him Shinobi can coast on his stupidly overtuned damage numbers for now. They can leave him for a bit longer until after Aramusha and Cent are addressed.

Knight_Raime
05-23-2018, 08:17 AM
I'm thinking Aramusha needs love before those two. Sorry but that guy might as well not even be in the game anymore. He is just as much a failed experiment as Centurion is in the developer's attempts to create entire characters as a response to the defensive meta. Before they finally wizened up and started actually changing the gameplay mechanics which enabled the defensive meta to be so oppressive.

Much like PK before him Shinobi can coast on his stupidly overtuned damage numbers for now. They can leave him for a bit longer until after Aramusha and Cent are addressed.

ehh. I don't really agree. They can buff his blade blockade to fix him. Shinobi and centurion are flawed design wise. I personally don't think aramusha is flawed design wise. he's just not a popular concept because he requires the enemy to attack him. People still have a big issue against the defensive meta wanting everyone to be able to ignore defensive play. And since mushu can't do anything about a defensive player people hate him.

Vakris_One
05-23-2018, 10:50 AM
ehh. I don't really agree. They can buff his blade blockade to fix him. Shinobi and centurion are flawed design wise. I personally don't think aramusha is flawed design wise. he's just not a popular concept because he requires the enemy to attack him. People still have a big issue against the defensive meta wanting everyone to be able to ignore defensive play. And since mushu can't do anything about a defensive player people hate him.
Not asking for anyone to ignore defensive play as that's not a healthy place for the game to be. However the fact that Ara gets completely shut down from the most basic implementation of defense, which is to block should be evidence enough that he needs attention. I disagree that Shinobi is flawed design wise. His problem will not require a major rework to fix, at best he only needs the PK treatment which is to adjust damage numbers and compensate with a more flexible mixup.

Now if a character cannot do a single thing about a player putting up the most basic form of defense when the goal is to make every hero in the game a viable choice then something obviously needs to be done. When you put Aramusha up against Conq for example the difference between the two is so staggering it makes it feel like Aramusha shouldn't even be in the same game as a character that can negate absolutely everything he can do. That's simply not healthy for a fighting game.

Furthermore when Orochi and Beserker have both been made into better versions of what Aramusha was supposed to be it really feels off to say that all he needs is a buff to his all block.

BTTrinity
05-23-2018, 12:11 PM
Not asking for anyone to ignore defensive play as that's not a healthy place for the game to be. However the fact that Ara gets completely shut down from the most basic implementation of defense, which is to block should be evidence enough that he needs attention. I disagree that Shinobi is flawed design wise. His problem will not require a major rework to fix, at best he only needs the PK treatment which is to adjust damage numbers and compensate with a more flexible mixup.

Now if a character cannot do a single thing about a player putting up the most basic form of defense when the goal is to make every hero in the game a viable choice then something obviously needs to be done. When you put Aramusha up against Conq for example the difference between the two is so staggering it makes it feel like Aramusha shouldn't even be in the same game as a character that can negate absolutely everything he can do. That's simply not healthy for a fighting game.

Furthermore when Orochi and Beserker have both been made into better versions of what Aramusha was supposed to be it really feels off to say that all he needs is a buff to his all block.

I agree with you here, Ara definitely needs the attention most out of all the DLC heroes.... And a few buffs to BB doesnt fix the fact that this guy cant even wish he was a mix-up specialist.

I say give him:

Make it so he cant be GB'd out of zone attack

Fix his throwing bug (if he an his opponent are facing eachother when next to a wall, Ara CANNOT throw the person toward the wall but will instead throw behind him)

Deadly feint applied to zone

Ability to cancel heavy finishers into a dodge (This will allow him to use rushing wind if the opponent rolls out of his finisher)

Hyper Armor on heavy finisher feints

Blade Blockade punishes need to be normalized:

Ring the bell damage buff to 18-20? (This will still be your go to punish)

Fury Unleashed guaranteed off ALL light attacks, including zones 500ms and faster

Then his UB isnt guaranteed off anything but is there to potentially start a mixup (For those who play him, its very good to just let one fly on minion point when surrounded cuz minions trigger a BB reaction)

rastassin
05-23-2018, 12:36 PM
LOL
vanilla heroes first!

BTTrinity
05-23-2018, 12:54 PM
LOL
vanilla heroes first!

The fact you say this, tells me you didnt even read the first sentence

Knight_Raime
05-23-2018, 08:59 PM
Not asking for anyone to ignore defensive play as that's not a healthy place for the game to be. However the fact that Ara gets completely shut down from the most basic implementation of defense, which is to block should be evidence enough that he needs attention. I disagree that Shinobi is flawed design wise. His problem will not require a major rework to fix, at best he only needs the PK treatment which is to adjust damage numbers and compensate with a more flexible mixup.

Now if a character cannot do a single thing about a player putting up the most basic form of defense when the goal is to make every hero in the game a viable choice then something obviously needs to be done. When you put Aramusha up against Conq for example the difference between the two is so staggering it makes it feel like Aramusha shouldn't even be in the same game as a character that can negate absolutely everything he can do. That's simply not healthy for a fighting game.

Furthermore when Orochi and Beserker have both been made into better versions of what Aramusha was supposed to be it really feels off to say that all he needs is a buff to his all block.

I'm curious on what you'd do with aramusha then. Because blade blockade is what his kit pivots around. His infinite combo is designed so once he gets in he's supposed to be able to stay in.

I'm just going to have to hold my ground with Shinobi. The guy has no offense of his own and his mobility is janky as is bull because he forces people into a losing situation since about half the heros can't punish either out come he forces reliably. Nobushi is an example of a hero who can counter both instances without being forced to guess. Warden is an example of someone who can't punish either instance. Shinobi's damage profile is only one of his issues.

From my experiences Aramusha only struggles against people who do not attack and play passive. If my opponent is willing to engage me I can chip them away with blade blockade, raw heavies, and the little guaranteed damage you get with the infinite combo. Conq vs mushu isn't the only one sided match up a handful of them exist. And conq in general is actually a bit over tuned. And I don't agree to that fully. Aramusha is a pure counter attacker. He primarily is supposed to punish whiffs. Berzerker is a combo character that is based around trading and opening heros. Mushu barrows a bit from both kits conceptually but he's designed around being defensive.

That's why I said blade blockade is the primary thing for him that needs to be addressed.

Knight_Raime
05-23-2018, 09:10 PM
I agree with you here, Ara definitely needs the attention most out of all the DLC heroes.... And a few buffs to BB doesnt fix the fact that this guy cant even wish he was a mix-up specialist.

I say give him:

Make it so he cant be GB'd out of zone attack

Fix his throwing bug (if he an his opponent are facing eachother when next to a wall, Ara CANNOT throw the person toward the wall but will instead throw behind him)

Deadly feint applied to zone

Ability to cancel heavy finishers into a dodge (This will allow him to use rushing wind if the opponent rolls out of his finisher)

Hyper Armor on heavy finisher feints

Blade Blockade punishes need to be normalized:

Ring the bell damage buff to 18-20? (This will still be your go to punish)

Fury Unleashed guaranteed off ALL light attacks, including zones 500ms and faster

Then his UB isnt guaranteed off anything but is there to potentially start a mixup (For those who play him, its very good to just let one fly on minion point when surrounded cuz minions trigger a BB reaction)

I don't know how you can think that. Shinobi forces a lot of the cast into unfavorable positions on attempting to punish. There are only a handful of heros who can reliably punish both of the instances from shinobi. Most can only punish one or the other. and a few can't punish both. That alone is not good. That coupled with his over the top damage profile (now the strongest in the game since pk's nerf) and how he can't be offensive on his own.

Centurion as a concept was flawed but he worked. And is only bad now after several nerfs and some game changes. and aramusha is kind of in the same boat as centurion. Except he was never OP.

~Why? No other move in the game is free from being GBed. Wouldn't help his zone be better anyway.

~yes bug fix is good.

~Would create a flicker bug.

~Not really convinced this would be helpful. If people knew he'd dodge they could just GB him.

~Might be helpful for team fights. Unsure if it would make him more effective though.

~almost a heavies worth of damage on any attack? I don't think so.

~Could see this. Since BB seems to be based on reactionary play instead of prediction.

BTTrinity
05-23-2018, 10:11 PM
I don't know how you can think that. Shinobi forces a lot of the cast into unfavorable positions on attempting to punish. There are only a handful of heros who can reliably punish both of the instances from shinobi. Most can only punish one or the other. and a few can't punish both. That alone is not good. That coupled with his over the top damage profile (now the strongest in the game since pk's nerf) and how he can't be offensive on his own.

Centurion as a concept was flawed but he worked. And is only bad now after several nerfs and some game changes. and aramusha is kind of in the same boat as centurion. Except he was never OP.

~Why? No other move in the game is free from being GBed. Wouldn't help his zone be better anyway.

~yes bug fix is good.

~Would create a flicker bug.

~Not really convinced this would be helpful. If people knew he'd dodge they could just GB him.

~Might be helpful for team fights. Unsure if it would make him more effective though.

~almost a heavies worth of damage on any attack? I don't think so.

~Could see this. Since BB seems to be based on reactionary play instead of prediction.

Because, Imo its ok for a hero to be strong but its not okay for a hero to be weak. (I normally get disagreed with on this, so dont hurt me plz)

- Aramusha's zone is the ONLY thing I've ever thrown and gotten GB'd out of before the attack connects. (In fact, I usually like to attack GB's on everything I play that isnt Ara)

- If it was applied to the unblockable portion of his zone there would be a flicker? I feel like it wouldnt look any different from the rest of his feints

- Its useful on PK and Kensei, It would definitely be useful on Ara (have you never had someone roll out of your mixup with these characters?)

- You're probably right, it'd probably just be a better choice to buff the speed of his top heavy deadly feint.

- "Almost a heavy's worth the damage" O-rly? Nobu = 18, double lights are just above 20 - I think RTB being 18 wouldn't be a problem at all, especially at the point where it still would probably be the worst full block in the game as it still requires you to block an attack in order to get any sort of value out of it

- It seems that was kind of what they intended, and it works for the most part... Its very rare anyone blocks fury unleashed when I use it on faster attacks.

EDIT: Shinobi has more damage than Shaman?

Knight_Raime
05-23-2018, 11:27 PM
Because, Imo its ok for a hero to be strong but its not okay for a hero to be weak. (I normally get disagreed with on this, so dont hurt me plz)

- Aramusha's zone is the ONLY thing I've ever thrown and gotten GB'd out of before the attack connects. (In fact, I usually like to attack GB's on everything I play that isnt Ara)

- If it was applied to the unblockable portion of his zone there would be a flicker? I feel like it wouldnt look any different from the rest of his feints

- Its useful on PK and Kensei, It would definitely be useful on Ara (have you never had someone roll out of your mixup with these characters?)

- You're probably right, it'd probably just be a better choice to buff the speed of his top heavy deadly feint.

- "Almost a heavy's worth the damage" O-rly? Nobu = 18, double lights are just above 20 - I think RTB being 18 wouldn't be a problem at all, especially at the point where it still would probably be the worst full block in the game as it still requires you to block an attack in order to get any sort of value out of it

- It seems that was kind of what they intended, and it works for the most part... Its very rare anyone blocks fury unleashed when I use it on faster attacks.

EDIT: Shinobi has more damage than Shaman?

The idea of forcing people into unfavorable positions in itself is strong and isn't the whole issue. it's that there isn't reliable counter play to it for most of the cast. Though I share your sentiment about the strong/weak comment. I just think shinobi is fundamentally flawed. But I can see how some of my bias may effect my view on him.

~Then maybe we can talk about lowering it's vulnerability window if being GBed out of it is pretty frequent. But I don't think GB immune is a smart thing.

~I suppose it would depend on where in the attack the feint window was placed. Would probably have to be towards the latter half of the unblockable attack.

~I'll need to go back and play Mushu a bit more to see if it would be a decent fit. My only current issue with that is that he can change the direction of the attack while he's mid dash.

~But if we buff the speed of his deadly feint it might ruin the ability to delay his deadly feint.

~Double lights on Bushi are kind of hard to confirm. I think rtb is fine where it's at.

~it gets blocked for me constantly. but I still am fine with letting it be confirmed on lights. Would give incentive to use BB over a light parry since I believe unleashed does more damage than a light parry. But I could be wrong. If it doesn't it should when the change is made.

And yes he does. Her zone is stronger damage wise. and her bite is obv bonkers damage wise but shinobi has very strong damage with double lights and pretty strong deflect damage. His heavies are strong too. though not far above shamans. Basic attack wise shinobi is the strongest.

BTTrinity
05-24-2018, 12:12 AM
The idea of forcing people into unfavorable positions in itself is strong and isn't the whole issue. it's that there isn't reliable counter play to it for most of the cast. Though I share your sentiment about the strong/weak comment. I just think shinobi is fundamentally flawed. But I can see how some of my bias may effect my view on him.

~Then maybe we can talk about lowering it's vulnerability window if being GBed out of it is pretty frequent. But I don't think GB immune is a smart thing.

~I suppose it would depend on where in the attack the feint window was placed. Would probably have to be towards the latter half of the unblockable attack.

~I'll need to go back and play Mushu a bit more to see if it would be a decent fit. My only current issue with that is that he can change the direction of the attack while he's mid dash.

~But if we buff the speed of his deadly feint it might ruin the ability to delay his deadly feint.

~Double lights on Bushi are kind of hard to confirm. I think rtb is fine where it's at.

~it gets blocked for me constantly. but I still am fine with letting it be confirmed on lights. Would give incentive to use BB over a light parry since I believe unleashed does more damage than a light parry. But I could be wrong. If it doesn't it should when the change is made.

And yes he does. Her zone is stronger damage wise. and her bite is obv bonkers damage wise but shinobi has very strong damage with double lights and pretty strong deflect damage. His heavies are strong too. though not far above shamans. Basic attack wise shinobi is the strongest.

Fair enough; your Bias is the last thing I thought about, didnt really sense it that much.

- Im speaking of the first portion of his zone btw when it comes to GB immunity... I think him getting GB'd out in between the two hits is fine

- First hit from his zone connects and then you deadly feint the UB's startup is what I had in mind.

- I have A LOT of people who just roll out of my heavy finishers and make me wanna cry lmao; Would you rather him commit to the direction that he's already in when he dashes?

- I've never had much success with this tactic anyway :( his top heavy one I just get slapped out of 7-8 times out of 10

- I was just speaking for Bushi's single light; double lights refers to warden side lights, orochi top, shino, et cet but considering the stun... you're probably right, he wont die without the buff

- You would be correct. Fury Unleashed = 35 and his parry heavy's = 25

Okay, I see. I always thought Shamans or PK's damage was the highest (before her nerf of course)

Knight_Raime
05-24-2018, 02:01 AM
Fair enough; your Bias is the last thing I thought about, didnt really sense it that much.

- Im speaking of the first portion of his zone btw when it comes to GB immunity... I think him getting GB'd out in between the two hits is fine

- First hit from his zone connects and then you deadly feint the UB's startup is what I had in mind.

- I have A LOT of people who just roll out of my heavy finishers and make me wanna cry lmao; Would you rather him commit to the direction that he's already in when he dashes?

- I've never had much success with this tactic anyway :( his top heavy one I just get slapped out of 7-8 times out of 10

- I was just speaking for Bushi's single light; double lights refers to warden side lights, orochi top, shino, et cet but considering the stun... you're probably right, he wont die without the buff

- You would be correct. Fury Unleashed = 35 and his parry heavy's = 25

Okay, I see. I always thought Shamans or PK's damage was the highest (before her nerf of course)

I have a very strong distaste towards shinobi. Only character in the game that both forces me into situations I can't deal with because character choice and generally makes me feel helpless when they play ultra passive. Goki is the only other hero in the game that gets in my head almost this much. I'd still like to think my overall issues i outlined with Shinobi are real issues. Just how big they are is probably up for debate.

~Considering it's 2 seperate attacks instead of 1 that might be the cause of the increase in vulnerability. I'll have to test this out myself. My solution should still fix the issue though.

~I think it would have to be a bit farther in the unblockable animation to avoid flicker. It being farther in the animation would be a good thing though because it would really mess with someone who does the wait and see playstyle.

~I've never had people roll out of it but i'll take your word on it being a thing. Yes if he was forced into a direction with his dash attacks i'd be more comfortable with it.

~We must fight different people then. I generally fight patient/wait and see kind of people. so delaying attacks is very beneficial for me.

Nah shaman seems hard hitting because if you can't deal with her speedy heavies and the occasional bite she kills you off quickly. But if you're good at preventing her bleed and punishing her heavy based attacks she really struggles to kill. Where as all shinobi has to do is bait you into sickle rain with a back flip after a kick whiff. Or land a kick for 25 damage and a free mix up for more potential damage. or get a deflect kick for ranged heavy for 30+ damage. or just double light interrupt you a few times with his 24 damage (combined from both lights) Pretty much anything he does hurts. It's just because he can't actually be offensive that hides his insane damage profile. Most of the time hes just bouncing around not doing anything.

Vakris_One
05-24-2018, 02:30 AM
I'm curious on what you'd do with aramusha then. Because blade blockade is what his kit pivots around. His infinite combo is designed so once he gets in he's supposed to be able to stay in.

I'm just going to have to hold my ground with Shinobi. The guy has no offense of his own and his mobility is janky as is bull because he forces people into a losing situation since about half the heros can't punish either out come he forces reliably. Nobushi is an example of a hero who can counter both instances without being forced to guess. Warden is an example of someone who can't punish either instance. Shinobi's damage profile is only one of his issues.

From my experiences Aramusha only struggles against people who do not attack and play passive. If my opponent is willing to engage me I can chip them away with blade blockade, raw heavies, and the little guaranteed damage you get with the infinite combo. Conq vs mushu isn't the only one sided match up a handful of them exist. And conq in general is actually a bit over tuned. And I don't agree to that fully. Aramusha is a pure counter attacker. He primarily is supposed to punish whiffs. Berzerker is a combo character that is based around trading and opening heros. Mushu barrows a bit from both kits conceptually but he's designed around being defensive.

That's why I said blade blockade is the primary thing for him that needs to be addressed.
I don't think Ara needs much, I just think he needs a couple of strong options outside of just his Blade Blockade because to rely solely on that for reliably getting into his opponent is what makes him a weak character. No character can or should stay in the game based entirely on the principle of "attack me so that I can punish you.". Everyone needs at least two reliable ways of going on the offensive from neutral without it being so risky that he ends up getting punished into oblivion for it.

Here is what I would do:
- Have deadly feint be accessible from the top heavy from neutral - meaning he can soft cancel his neutral top heavy into either side light. Aramusha players already have to whiff their first light in order to open up players who can block or parry their opening light so might as well let them have a decent opening mind game without the need to waste time with whiffs. It will be similar to Kensei's top heavy mixup from neutral minus the heavy > side heavy soft cancel. Kensei pretty much took that soft feint from Aramusha's playbook anyway so it's time to give some of that love back to it's progenitor.

- The top heavy finisher should be able to be soft cancelled into a ring the bell - whereby the Aramusha moves forward and initiates the CC grab and dazing pommel hit from "ring the bell". It will basically be a marriage of Kensei's pommel strike and Galdiator's toe poke but as a chain finisher instead of accessible from neutral. A missed ring the bell will guarantee a free GB. This will add some much needed threat into his top heavy finisher mind game as apposed to the opponent just having to sit and simply react to whichever direction a strike comes from.

- His Blade Blockade punishes need to be normalised. Fury unleashed should definitely be guaranteed on all lights attacks and all zones that are 500ms or faster.

And for the rest I very much agree with these suggestions from BTTrinity:

"- Make it so he cant be GB'd out of zone attack
- Fix his throwing bug (if he an his opponent are facing eachother when next to a wall, Ara CANNOT throw the person toward the wall but will instead throw behind him)
- Deadly feint applied to zone
- Ability to cancel heavy finishers into a dodge (This will allow him to use rushing wind if the opponent rolls out of his finisher)"

And that's all I think he needs.

As for Shinobi, he currently has the overtuned damage numbers and the fact that most of the roster cannot reliably punish most of what he does with which to crutch on for the time being. He is relatively strong because of this albeit not in the ideal way that is desirable but in the unhealthy way that PK was in. Aramusha on the other hand is weak, just like Centurion, and therefore should take priority over Shinobi who can hang in there for the time being.

EvoX.
05-24-2018, 07:54 AM
With the speed of the current reworks and the info that there will be new heroes this year... I'd say Aramusha and Centurion are going to wait a long time for a look over.

Knight_Raime
05-24-2018, 05:54 PM
I don't think Ara needs much, I just think he needs a couple of strong options outside of just his Blade Blockade because to rely solely on that for reliably getting into his opponent is what makes him a weak character. No character can or should stay in the game based entirely on the principle of "attack me so that I can punish you.". Everyone needs at least two reliable ways of going on the offensive from neutral without it being so risky that he ends up getting punished into oblivion for it.

Here is what I would do:
- Have deadly feint be accessible from the top heavy from neutral - meaning he can soft cancel his neutral top heavy into either side light. Aramusha players already have to whiff their first light in order to open up players who can block or parry their opening light so might as well let them have a decent opening mind game without the need to waste time with whiffs. It will be similar to Kensei's top heavy mixup from neutral minus the heavy > side heavy soft cancel. Kensei pretty much took that soft feint from Aramusha's playbook anyway so it's time to give some of that love back to it's progenitor.

- The top heavy finisher should be able to be soft cancelled into a ring the bell - whereby the Aramusha moves forward and initiates the CC grab and dazing pommel hit from "ring the bell". It will basically be a marriage of Kensei's pommel strike and Galdiator's toe poke but as a chain finisher instead of accessible from neutral. A missed ring the bell will guarantee a free GB. This will add some much needed threat into his top heavy finisher mind game as apposed to the opponent just having to sit and simply react to whichever direction a strike comes from.

- His Blade Blockade punishes need to be normalised. Fury unleashed should definitely be guaranteed on all lights attacks and all zones that are 500ms or faster.

And for the rest I very much agree with these suggestions from BTTrinity:

"- Make it so he cant be GB'd out of zone attack
- Fix his throwing bug (if he an his opponent are facing eachother when next to a wall, Ara CANNOT throw the person toward the wall but will instead throw behind him)
- Deadly feint applied to zone
- Ability to cancel heavy finishers into a dodge (This will allow him to use rushing wind if the opponent rolls out of his finisher)"

And that's all I think he needs.

As for Shinobi, he currently has the overtuned damage numbers and the fact that most of the roster cannot reliably punish most of what he does with which to crutch on for the time being. He is relatively strong because of this albeit not in the ideal way that is desirable but in the unhealthy way that PK was in. Aramusha on the other hand is weak, just like Centurion, and therefore should take priority over Shinobi who can hang in there for the time being.

Those are some interesting suggestions that i'll have to chew on. I'll probably either pm you my thoughts or just create a thread about aramusha changes if I manage to think of any on my own.


With the speed of the current reworks and the info that there will be new heroes this year... I'd say Aramusha and Centurion are going to wait a long time for a look over.


We'd be lucky if any of the dlc heros will get touched to be honest. I don't see them doing the same thing as they are doing with the OG roster unless both the OG roster and the new heros outshine them. That's really the only reason why OG heros are being revisited anyway. I wish they wouldn't be stubborn and just commit to updating all the heros. new heros are coming and with that the potential of power creep. I really could care less if I have to wait awhile for dlc heros to be touched on. So long as I knew they were going to be I would be content.

Playing_Mantis
05-25-2018, 02:36 AM
if you want a new design maybe u should just play a different character? that might be a better solution for you. Cent is not the best but he's for sure very viable. good cent players can dominate just about anyone. maybe nerf their stamina punish imo.

Knight_Raime
05-25-2018, 02:41 AM
if you want a new design maybe u should just play a different character? that might be a better solution for you. Cent is not the best but he's for sure very viable. good cent players can dominate just about anyone. maybe nerf their stamina punish imo.

You confuse complaints with skill. I'm perfectly capable of winning matches as centurion. that doesn't mean centurion is fine.
and sure. A good player can win against anyone regardless of hero choice. That doesn't matter. Centurion is statistically worse then more than a handful of heros in the game.