PDA

View Full Version : mini panzers?



buzzsaw1939
06-26-2007, 12:31 PM
Well... I just discoverd why I keep flying into the ground, ground objects appear to be about 1/4 scale!! cheeeezze http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

buzzsaw1939
06-26-2007, 12:31 PM
Well... I just discoverd why I keep flying into the ground, ground objects appear to be about 1/4 scale!! cheeeezze http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

SaQSoN
06-26-2007, 01:31 PM
You, probably, should visit an oftalmologist, because the scale of ground units is the same, as aircraft.

http://www.simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&...55577&page=3&fpart=2 (http://www.simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2155577&page=3&fpart=2)

Message #2164133 - 20-03-2007 and further

buzzsaw1939
06-26-2007, 01:38 PM
If I could figure out how to post pics, I would show you what I meen, I landed next to some tanks on the move, and they are smaller than volkswagons!!! I still love the game, it just disapoints me a little.

3.JG51_BigBear
06-26-2007, 02:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SaQSoN:
You, probably, should visit an oftalmologist, because the scale of ground units is the same, as aircraft.

http://www.simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&...55577&page=3&fpart=2 (http://www.simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2155577&page=3&fpart=2)

Message #2164133 - 20-03-2007 and further </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So which aircraft are too large? Just curious.

buzzsaw1939
06-26-2007, 02:21 PM
I just went in to find out, so far the tempest,p40 and p51 are two large! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

buzzsaw1939
06-26-2007, 02:43 PM
So's the p38,and spit. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif I rest my case!!

SaQSoN
06-26-2007, 02:47 PM
The smallest axis armor in the game is Pz.IIF.

In the game it is about 2m wide and 4m long. While it should be 2.220m wide and 4.800m long. Which means, it is about 17% smaller, then should be. 83% is not even close to 1/4 scale (which would be 25%). And it is not smaller, then the Kubelwagen, but is about the same size.

Other axis armor has size variation relatively to the correct size within 5% margin.

SaQSoN
06-26-2007, 02:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 3.JG51_BigBear:
So which aircraft are too large? Just curious. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One IJA and one USN fighters are about 20% larger then should be (subtypes not counted).

Other planes have correct scale.

buzzsaw1939
06-26-2007, 03:03 PM
I'll take your word for it! I just went in and flew each aircraft at 20 feet over the tanks, played it back in slow motion, the size of the aircraft varries, but they are all way two big, I retired with a perfect record as a commcial pilot, (never flew into the ground) like I said in my first post, now I know why it's been happening, I'll just have to watch it, won't I? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

SaQSoN
06-26-2007, 04:11 PM
The size of most aircraft and vehicles in the game is correct, there are very few exceptions to that, as I said, one or two vehicles and two aircraft whose size is within 20% margin from the correct one.

No matter what may seem to you.

PS I don't need to fly them in the game, I can measure them in 3DSMax, which is, by far, more exact method.

buzzsaw1939
06-26-2007, 04:33 PM
but are you aware that even 5% can throw off your depth perseption greatly at 400 knots I think right now theres a few people trying my test to see what I'm talking about! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

FritzGryphon
06-26-2007, 07:01 PM
Buzzsaw, I think you just don't quite realize how small tanks are compared to airplanes.

Airplanes are even wider than some houses.

Also, a 5% variation does not mean they are always 5% too small. It could be 5% too big too.

buzzsaw1939
06-26-2007, 08:13 PM
Thanks FritzGryphon for takeing the time to help me figure this out, I've already conciderd what your saying, I've even conciderd that those might be some kind off small tanks or trucks I've never heard of, in my time I've been around a lot of ww2 aircraft, and know how big they are, it surprizes many people, I even sat in a few that belonged to friends, I actualy can judge the size of an object on a 300 to 500 hundred foot fly by, I have a good eye for that kind of stuff, over 10,000 hrs in the Alaska bush getting in and out of places most people can't emagine, I only mention this so you can understand where I'm comeing from, not to impress any one! I hope I haven't upset SaQSoN or any one else, I really love this sim, it's the closest thing i've seen to reality, my post was more of a tungue in cheek statement than a complaint, however I have to say, I still think the scale is not that accurate, I have one grab where I hit the top of a truck and it is under the chord of the wing, looks weird! any way thanks for your input. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

FritzGryphon
06-26-2007, 08:47 PM
I regret my usual bluntness, I'm not trying to be insulting (or I could be but I'm just not that good at it).

But you have to admit it's kind of weird to claim that tanks in the game are too small, when you can easily measure them in the game with the FMB grid. While I have checked myself, and agree the scale is sometimes off, I know the errors are both larger and smaller.

After all, there are somewhat more logical explanations for the phenomenon, than MG miniaturizing the tanks, especially for one who gets to fly a lot. For example, the lack of depth perception in a video game would cause distant objects to seem small. It may also be the small size of the monitor that makes objects seem smaller, compared to the large view a human normally has in real life.

I don't understand why the immediate reaction is that the tanks are too small. What would be the developers motivation for doing that? If they were going to meddle with vehicle sizes, they would have made them bigger, like they sometimes do in other games.

buzzsaw1939
06-26-2007, 08:53 PM
right on bro...I can't argue with that! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

buzzsaw1939
06-26-2007, 10:23 PM
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa103/buzzsaw1939/scale10.jpg

SaQSoN
06-26-2007, 11:38 PM
So? This picture just proves, what I am talking about. The relative size of tanks and planes is correct for the most part.

The PzIV is that small, comparing to the Tempest in the real life too.

buzzsaw1939
06-26-2007, 11:57 PM
Since I don't know what a PzIV is, I guess you got me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif looks like a tank to me! if it is, the pilot must be 10 feet tall. Peace bro http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

SaQSoN
06-27-2007, 12:59 AM
Yes, pilot figures are about 20% larger then should be (approx 2.1m tall). You could have found a note about this in the thread, I posted the link to.

Korolov1986
06-27-2007, 01:04 AM
Tempest is a HUGE plane, even in real life. That picture looks about right to me.

Here's a comparison of blueprints with the Tempest and a Panzer Kpfw IV Ausf G - Kpfw might be slightly bigger than it would be.

http://www.mechmodels.com/fbstuff/tempest_ausfg.jpg

VVS-Manuc
06-27-2007, 01:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Since I don't know what a PzIV is, I guess you got me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif looks like a tank to me! if it is, the pilot must be 10 feet tall. Peace bro http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
PzIV stands for Panzer (= tank) IV. Here you can see the size of it related to soldiers, it was not nearly as big as a today's battle tank:
http://www.lonesentry.com/germansoldier/germanpanzer4.jpg

buzzsaw1939
06-27-2007, 01:38 AM
Thanks Manuc... that clears it up more, I always thought a panzer was slightly smaller than a tiger, I've been watching war movies all my life and never noticed they were that small! I feel better now. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif (a picture is worth a thousand words)

buzzsaw1939
06-27-2007, 01:49 AM
Thanks Korolov... I know the tempest, I just don't know much about tanks, I stand corrected. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif I always thought they were bigger!

buzzsaw1939
06-27-2007, 02:08 AM
SaQSoN... I read the link, I didn't see the part about pilot size, wouldn't know anyway, I'm old and don't think in meters, like I said before, it was a tungue in cheek statement, not a real complaint, It was an observation based on my experience, you guys can quit hammering me now, I'm still flying into the ground! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

tigertalon
06-27-2007, 05:18 AM
Another picture just to show how big this thing is:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a6/486SqnVolkers1945.JPG/800px-486SqnVolkers1945.JPG

buzzsaw1939
06-27-2007, 10:31 AM
Yes I know...I know some about planes that aren't in here, like the Seafury etc. I still think the ground objects look too small, the pilot looks preportional to the aircraft!! I didn't have time to study all this stuff, I was too busy flying in the real world, right now, I'm trying to figure out if you guys are trying to help, or some body yelled (pig pile) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif I may be old, but my ego is very stable!

Korolov1986
06-28-2007, 12:44 PM
Well, it is a game so our perception of depth, etc. is kind of wonky.

For example, it can seem like we're closer than 200m to a bandit, but they might actually be more like 800m away when you measure with the reticle.

Although I've got to ask, are you using the zoom views?

buzzsaw1939
06-28-2007, 12:57 PM
Not in flight...I'm to used to reality, thats all I know! I have been experimenting with the visuals, and I think I know whats happening, when I was told the pilot was bigger in the tempest, I started thinking, that could meen the sight through his eyes is bigger too, and that could explain it, I don't know a lot about programing, but it sounds logical to me, what do you think? I tied the p51 in the same mission, and it seemed more accurate visualy! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SaQSoN
06-28-2007, 03:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
I have been experimenting with the visuals, and I think I know whats happening, when I was told the pilot was bigger in the tempest, I started thinking, that could meen the sight through his eyes is bigger too, and that could explain it, I don't know a lot about programing, but it sounds logical to me, what do you think? I tied the p51 in the same mission, and it seemed more accurate visualy! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. The pilot figures in all planes are the same size. And they all are bigger, then should be.
2. The player's view does not depend on the size of the pilot figure.

The actual problem was once sounded in a discussion on this forum.

As you know, the game has 3 view modes with different FOV. The mode with nerrowest FOV (which some call "Zoom") gives player the most realistic angular size of the objects. So, if you want to judge the distance to an object by it's angular size, you must use this view.
In other view modes, which give you a wider field of view, the angular size of the objects is smaller, then in reality.

buzzsaw1939
06-28-2007, 03:56 PM
Thanks SaQSoN... I know about the views, thats not the problem, you have to understand, with all my experiance looking out of aircraft, things just don't look right and I'm trying to figure it out, when you said I need class's, thats like saying I don't know what I'm seeeing from an aircraft, I thought I would razz you a little, sorry! no harm intended! Like I said, it isn't that noticable in other plans, so I'll live with it. thanks for trying to help me understand the sim, it helps! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LEXX_Luthor
06-28-2007, 06:15 PM
Had you chosen a Hawker Hurricane with PzIV screenshot, you would not have tricked yourself on the last page. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

You play mostly FOV=90 and that is supposed to represent 90 degrees field of view. All that is shoe-horned into about a 30 degree wide glass monitor screen in front of you, depending on how close you mash your face to the glass. You could say its abstracted here with regard to size and area. It won't correspond to "real life" until you make the mental re-adjustment.

buzzsaw1939
06-28-2007, 06:21 PM
Tkanks Luthor... working on it! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

grifter2u
08-09-2007, 04:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">buzzsaw1939 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i think part of the problem you see, is indeed an issue.

to me also many of the tanks/trucks (even other airplanes) look much to small, compared to what you see out of the cockpit of a small aircraft when flying at low or medium altitude.

like luthier and somebody else mentioned, indeed make sure you FoV setting for il2 is correct for the monitor you are using, that part is important (otherwise everything you look at will be magnified or shrunk down)

did you take any photographs from the cockpit while flying during your bush flying days ? it would give a good comparison of what things should look like in real life, and you can compare it with what you see in il2.

buzzsaw1939
08-09-2007, 06:45 AM
Nah... I finaly had to except that it's my 17 inch monitor and my tri-focals, also haveing to set back so far, my visuals are adjusting, now I'm working on the lack of motion, I'll probably never be able to fly again! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I had forgotten about this thread! but thanks for your input.

grifter2u
08-09-2007, 10:42 AM
if you were on a 17' monitor and were using wide view (90 degree view), that would explain it.

but if you were using the 35 FoV, you should on your 17' monitor see objects correctly in size, do you ? (not the 30 FoV gunsight, because that has a zoom effect added)

buzzsaw1939
08-09-2007, 10:48 AM
I keyed the three FOV views, and use the center one, I zoom out for taxieing, and thats about all. don't know the numbers!

grifter2u
08-10-2007, 10:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
I keyed the three FOV views, and use the center one, I zoom out for taxieing, and thats about all. don't know the numbers! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ahh my friend, but therein lies the answer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

the 3 default settings for the views in il2 represent:

1) the 30 degree zoom view ( = the gunsight view), this is for aiming precisely at something, but it has in addition to narrowing your field of view also a zoom effect that magnifies everything you look at. oleg's argument there is that it represents the increased focus and attention a human has when you look at someting with great concentration, and this view should only briefly be used when you have the time to aim carefully and then shoot.

2) the "normal' view, which has a 70 degree field of view (FoV). this is intended as the normal view to fly in, but there is a catch. only if you have a 27 inch monitor or similar sized monitor, and sit about 1 meter from it, do you actually have a 70 degree part of your forward field of view occupied by that monitor. if you sit closer to it it fills a larger part of your field of view, if you sit further away from it it is a smaller part, etc ..

and why does this matter you ask ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif well the way il2 is coded (and many other games currently), you will only see objects correctly displayed in their right sizes on your monitor, if you have selected a field of view that is "right" for your monitor size and the distance you sit away from it ! with your 17' monitor, sitting from it at "normal viewing" distance (60 or 70 cm) you would need to set il2 to the 35 degree FoV roughly, and then you see other aircraft (and tanks and trucks etc..) in their right sizes. if you set your monitor to the normal view (70 degree), then you will now see all those objects at halft their real sizes (which is what you complained about in your first post).

3) and the 3e default view is "wide view", which is the 90 degree FoV. some people fly in that view to increase their peripheral vision, but unless you have a 30 inch monitor it will shrink objects on all other monitors (on yours they now could well be down to 30 % of their normal size)

all this is presuming that all objects in the game are correctly modelled in 1:1 size, but there are some errors in that to (i think most larger building are about 1/2 their normal size for ex)

so whats the answer ?
have a nice big monitor, and then by simple calculation figure out what part of your FoV it covers in front of you, and mostly fly with that FoV setting. for brief moments you can then use a narrower view to have a more detailed view (with a degree of zoom), or use a wider view for the periods you want good peripheral vision.

if you have been flying as a bush pilot for 20 years, you know exactly what buildings and cars etc should look like at various altitudes. with your FoV set correctly for your monitor size, that should exactly be simulated in il2 then.

ps: have a look in the in game options, you can assign keys to any FoV you like between 30 and 90 (at 5 degree increments i think). so you can setup your own hotkeys with the views that suit you.

buzzsaw1939
08-10-2007, 11:32 AM
Now we are getting some where! they were probably trying to tell me that before, and I wasn't getting it, good explanation! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gifthanks.
I've gotten used to it the way it is, so I hope I don't screw it up.

buzzsaw1939
08-10-2007, 11:49 PM
grifter2u... Thank you..thank you... thank you!! that solved the problem, I set it at FOV 65, and every thing looks normal now, I can read my instruments too! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

grifter2u
08-13-2007, 09:49 AM
buzzsaw1939,

your welcome http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

just experiment a bit with what view is "normal" for your specific monitor size, so that the FoV you choose allows you to correctly see truck/tanks on the ground for the correct distances. (for smaller monitors this is probably somewhere between 35 and 55 degrees)

when you used to fly as a bush pilot, from what kind of altitude would you be able to spot individual cars/pickup on roads or open fields? and what would be the altitude limit at which you couldnt spot them anymore as individual moving or stationary objects ?

buzzsaw1939
08-13-2007, 01:44 PM
MMMMM..I never really thought about that, I would guess 3, maybe 4 thousand feet, too many variables involved in that. the only problem with the new fov, is, I feel like I'm leaning foward now! but when I can afford the TIR that will be fixed. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

grifter2u
08-14-2007, 06:20 AM
hi buzzsaw,

there is a shift-F1 function you can use in the cockpit view, it slightly leans your pilot view back or forward (while moving it a little to the side). it is intended to replicate the pilot having to use the slightly off center position of the gunsight on some german planes, like the 109. maybe try it to see if it helps a little for what you are after.


with the visibility you mention in real life from the cockpit, i presume the main variables you refer to are issues like time of day (ie amount of sunlight), lack of haze or cloud, no smoke from fires, etc.. right ? or is there other factors you are referring to.

buzzsaw1939
08-14-2007, 07:49 AM
Oh Ya!.... like hung over, lack of sleep, scratched up sun glasses, black eye, dirty windows, watery eyes from passengers cheap perfume or onion breath, but mostly just a lot of rain and fog!...The up side is, you would be amazed what you can see on a rare clear day, when you want too! I remember a lady who was out on..oops http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif never mind!

grifter2u
08-14-2007, 09:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
I would guess 3, maybe 4 thousand feet </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

oks, so with good conditions (plane, pilot, passengers, and weather http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) you'd roughly say that altitude still ? sounds about right from what i read about allied pilots after the normandy invasion in france, they write about overflying the german lines at around 3500 - 5000 feet looking for individual tanks in fields, convoys on roads, or artillery positions.

when they saw a vehicle they would then swoop down to make a positive id and drop bombs or strafe the enemy.

the reason i asked, why dont you have a look in il2 sometime to see if those ground objects are as easy/difficult to locate and identify from that type of altitude, and compare it to hat you remember seeing with your long experience of flying at those altitudes.

if you have your screen FoV correctly setup in il2, you should not only see those tanks/trucks in their correct 1:1 sizes for the distance they are from you, but also should be able to spot them at a similar distance.

if you initially have some problems seeing them, try and reduce your FoV to about 40 or 45, since with the small 17' monitor you use that might well be the right setting for the FoV it represents. reducing the FoV like that gives you a more narrow "tunnel" to look through at the landscape, but scale of objects and spotting distances should then be correct for the size monitor you are using (that is the in theory of how the game is coded).


let me know what you think http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

buzzsaw1939
08-14-2007, 02:58 PM
grifter... Thanks for the suggestion, but I think I'll just let it be, too many system limitations to try and duplicate reality, I'm haveing fun, and thats all I expect from a sim, but I do appreciate your help. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif