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Diettiger2017
05-21-2018, 03:59 PM
I really feel he has to be the next to be reworked nothing to his move set and demons embrace very risky to use. I think as you play this game for a whole people just parry his lights so he's not viable to use that much thoughts?

TSCDescon
05-21-2018, 04:45 PM
He is not in a good spot right now.

My best guess is he won’t get reworked until the end of this year or next year due to character popularity.

Many people want Valk, Warden, Warlord, Lawbringer to be reworked, so chances for Shugoki to be next is very slim because hardly anyone plays him.

Lord_Cherubi
05-21-2018, 05:15 PM
He is not in a good spot right now.

My best guess is he won’t get reworked until the end of this year or next year due to character popularity.

Many people want Valk, Warden, Warlord, Lawbringer to be reworked, so chances for Shugoki to be next is very slim because hardly anyone plays him.

Not sure if Warlord needs a complete rework but i wouldnt mind a few more combos. I like to play aggressive with him but for a guy that uses a short sword he feels pretty damn clumsy.

TSCDescon
05-21-2018, 10:00 PM
Not sure if Warlord needs a complete rework but i wouldnt mind a few more combos. I like to play aggressive with him but for a guy that uses a short sword he feels pretty damn clumsy.

He will get a rework before Shugoki. He’s one of the popular characters up there.

Shugoki... probably only 5-10% of the playerbase actually mains him, from a PS4 perspective. I rarely see any other Shugoki besides myself after 10 games.

So yeah, Shugoki is “slowly” dying.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
05-22-2018, 03:25 AM
I just started playing shug in dominion and he sucks (rep 9 now). Supper fun if you got good team mates but unlikely to be the MVP on a losing team that manages to win because of him.

1. taking extra damage when HA is down is stupid. Why not just play shamon?

2. Demon's embrace is so broken compared to shamon's kit. Tracking, recovery, health damage, one shot kill (on the flip side)....they all need to be overhauled.


3. He needs an Full guard when his HA is down. If he uses the full guard it restarts the timer on his HA. Why does a GB take down hyper armor? GB should have nothing to do with HA.

4. his Oni charge should be from stand still into run without a delay if its not going to knock down enemies or stamina drain them. It needs more uses then the lucky knock of a bridge or whatever.

5. His feats in dominion are horrible, one stamina draining feat from another enemy and your dead. He should have a "in combat health recovery" as the last feat. He should have a immunity to stamina draining feat, then immune to bombing. Getting cheesed out of a win because of stamina drain is so fustating with any character. the feat is everywhere in Dominion. When hit by a stamina draining feat you should start the recovery right away that delay till recovery gets me killed SOOO many times. 6.

6. Why does Ken get an unblockable feat?...sorry that just always bugges me. why not give Shug a passive or non passive feat that blocks all unblockables. honestly I think unblockables are stupid in a game that is trying to simulate real combat. Why not make Shug the one opponent you have to fight fair?

7. Shug should have a way of forcing people to fight him instead of people running away only to gank him later. Yea you can get people with the zone sometimes (predictable) but to many times I've had people who refuse to fight me alone with full health. A cumbersome feat would be nice where no one in demon ball radius can run from you only walk.

8. Demon ball to wall damage should be a thing.

9. He has no openers. Shug has to tutle to get a hit in so he trade HA for action constantly. Give him a stunning headbutt to open and reduce the stamina drain on the one he has now or get rid of it...its op.


Honestly I don't know how to fix Shug to perfection but he is very underwelming in dominion especially now with all the o-roaches around and stamina draining feats characters have in their kit. I'm pretty good but he just doesn't have that easy feeling to him. He is like Orochi before his buff....worthless. Sure you can be good with him and enjoy his play style but he was underwealming to an enemy.

Inshort, get rid of the stamina draining effects in dominion on shug and give Shug something to spam to help open up and slow down characters besides a headbutt that he gets after a confirmed light.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
05-22-2018, 04:03 AM
One last thing in case I forgot. His Hit points to change depending on how many enemies he is facing. Like if he gained 75 points per enemy in the vicinity or locked onto him. If he had something like that as a passive everything else could stay the time and I'd be happy with him. He should be a powerhouse not a weak little kitten with a big gun.

Kryltic
05-22-2018, 10:04 AM
Quick ways to help the Shugoki.

Remove the extra damage he takes from losing Uninterruptable Stance.

Attempting to GB a Shugoki, which he successfully CGB, should not consume his stance up. If he fails to CGB the it should remove his Stance but otherwise do nothing more. Also successfully blocking attacks should not delay his Stance recovery.

Allow Charge of the Oni to knock opponents over who are OOS or if you hit them while your Revenge is active. Finally reduce the Stamina recovery time.

Give him a Light-Light and a Heavy-Light move set... Because his attacks are so slow I would do the following to all his chains.
All second attacks in a chain gain one of the following effects based on the type of attack, also second Light attacks cannot be followed up with a headbutt.
Light attacks are guaranteed to hit.
Heavy attacks become unblockable.

With his zone attack, make the second hit unblockable.

Headbutts can ledge and wallsplat opponents.

Demon's Embrace, remove the health penalty on a miss (if the Shaman doesn't have that penalty then nor should the Shugoki). Also allow it to recover Stamina based on how much health is recovered. Next a slight increase in time before another DE can be used (but NOT a delay in making other actions).

The_B0G_
05-22-2018, 11:15 AM
I got him yo rep 8 before I got bored with him, here's my take on Shugoki.

His attacks are powerful but slow, besides light+head butt he has nothing remotely safe to enter combat with. His completely relies on others to make mistakes to do damage, more so than any other class.

He's so slow movement wise that he can't really apply pressure either, if your opponent decides he is going to lose, he just has to turn and run and you don't get the kill.

He needs some mix ups like other heroes have gotten, a heavy swing that can be soft feinted into a butt end or punch, or even a GB.

Kryltic
05-22-2018, 12:00 PM
Don't mention soft feinting into a headbutt! Last time I suggested that I got practically screamed at for suggesting cheese! Haha

The GB idea I do like though.

Kryltic
05-22-2018, 12:46 PM
If I were to add larger changes I would do the following:

Give the Shugoki an attacking move that is similar in appearance to Charge of the Oni but instead allows him to hit an opponent with a heavy that either stuns the opponent and stops them moving or knock them over completely. The attack would be undodgable and unblockable wirh a quick enough recovery time so the Shugoki can re-engage his previously fleeing opponent.
This could be inputted like Charge of the Oni but you press heavy attack for it to track the nearest enemy in range and swing for them and yes this should always have HA.

Remove his Staggering Blow feat in favour of the Warlords level 3 extra health feat (but make it a level 4 for Shugoki).

Increase all of the Shugoki's movement speed (including Charge of the Oni), say by 10%. The won't break him but at least gives him a chance to help allies or capture points when his team is breaking.

Give his heavies a soft feint like the Kensei's Pommel strike.This could be instead of the previously mentioned GB cancel.

Edit: A small-medium Stamina increase. If the Shugoki is going to play like a tank he needs something to keep hin fighting.

MassiveD.
05-22-2018, 01:13 PM
Mmmm, there is one problem with actually buffing Shugoki, in good hands he's a S+++ tier hero right now. I would go as far as to say that he's lowkey the strongest hero in the game, however he has a lot of "hidden" strengths that 99.99% players simply are unaware off or don't know how to utilize.


Shugoki Pro's:

1. Fast lights with stamina drain & safe heavy attacks
2. Fast / heavy / faint mixup is simple, but highly effective 3 way guessing game
3. Huge stamina translates into a great faint game and strong mixup pressure
4. On attacking hyper armor prevents punishes / interruptions
5. On defense light + headbutt is a strong c-c-c-c-c-combo breaker and a tool that can be used to regain initiative and go into offensive
6. Demons Embrace might seem impossible to land , but actually has 3 scenarios where it can't be avoided - when you throw opponent to the wall, when you throw opponent to the ground, parrying a light attack (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!). Strong clutch move that makes Shugoki dangerous when he's low HP, the absolute most lethal punishing potential in the entire game. Actually can also be incorporated into faint game, not sure if glitch or not, but after heavy feint it can be forced to have a quicker windup, bit tricky to use but worth exploring, I managed it while dueling more time's than I expected for it to work.
7. Charged attacks are easier to land than people think, can be incorporated into feint game , because people think that you can grab him out of the charge at any time, but actually the window is barely half a second during windup, miss it and you will get force-fed 60 dmg guaranteed, works good when feinting into enemy's who are looking to interrupts with GB, also extremely strong versus all type off assassins that have to lunge, or initiate a combo as their main offensive tool, because with combination of hyper armor you can time the charged heavy during their lunges or even light attack mixups, works phenomenally well against shaman and PK.
8. Massive health pool.
9. Zone attack is both a great gap closer and has mixup potential against certain characters and in certain situations
10. GB + heavy is a free win a lot of the time if you are not above ledging people
11. Healing with demons embrace is a powerful demoralizer, easy to set up near walls or when throwing victims to the ground
12. Most frightening wall-bang in the game


Shugoki Con's

1. His dodge is criminally slow, so slow in fact that it breaks the game during certain matchups, for example Gladiator toe-stab is undodgable with Shugoki, even if you predict the toe-stab , and dodge prematurely, the gladiator can toe stab you mid dodge (it's that slow lol)
2. No his attack speed is not too slow, I'll explain why , hold up


What many people don't realize is that Shugoki is a pressure monster. When people pick him up in the beginning, they don't realize his mix-up and pressure potential , and decide that OK he's slow, slow attacks, I must play reactionary / defense, but in fact that is exactly where Shugoki is the weakest (however skilled opponents can still use light + headbutt to give themselves breathing space untill hyperarmor comes back).

Not only he's not a defensive / reactionary hero, he's a phenomenal striker. If you get your mixup down to pro levels with him, he is unbelievably quick, he can dish out flurry's that rival some assassins, using his massive stamina pool, health pool and intermediate hyper armor (that gives him enough space to make mistakes without getting punished, and timed well with your attacks and adjusting the mixup, can be recharged multiple times) he really put the pressure on heroes. You might say that he doesn't have fast unblockables, but his chip damage is great (6dmg per heavy), and if the opponents hold block for too long, they'll quickly get chipped down, if they try to parry, shugokis stamina pool and strong faint game makes him extremely capable at fishing for counter parries.

Another factor about Shugoki that is not apparent, is his ability to control the pace of the game. Hyper armor trades with heavies and light+headbutt combo breakers can be strategically used to trigger opponents, throw them off their game, and force them to play on your terms, and if you manage your hyper armor mixup pressures well, it's a pretty depressing situation for anyone that will face you.

And the final overlooked factor about Shugoki, is that he is a master grappler. Using hyper armor he can do some wild, unnatural things with grabbing, for example did you know that he can straight up grab aramusha out of his teleport attack? (which looks hilarious), can also be used to surprise opponents by letting them strike you with heavy, and grabbing them once their attack lands (since you are not staggered), you do this near a wall or near a ledge, and you gain way more than you lose during the trade, WAY MORE.


So in conclusion, Shugoki may seem slow , basic etc, but in the right hands he is simply unreal, his mechanics are just way too wild when compared to other heroes to the point where he truly is an S+++ hero, easily overpowered, however lowkey overlooked because to play him right you must be aware of his mechanics, of his interactions with other heroes and certain scenarios during combat, and In my opinion that is the reason why he is so underplayed right now, he's too difficult to master and the game tutorials are not capable of providing that knowledge in the shape that they are in now.

So I don't know what to make of it, I'm a Shugoki main right now at 73% duel win ratio, I know what he's capable, and I'm definitely not the best Shugoki main out there.

However, knowing intimately well, what a high-rolling Shugoki can do, I have a feeling that the best Shugoki main in the game out there somewhere, is an undisputed champion and simply cannot be defeated by any other player in the game.

Vakris_One
05-22-2018, 03:23 PM
Mmmm, there is one problem with actually buffing Shugoki, in good hands he's a S+++ tier hero right now. I would go as far as to say that he's lowkey the strongest hero in the game, however he has a lot of "hidden" strengths that 99.99% players simply are unaware off or don't know how to utilize.
In the hands of a super passive player who is on top of his turtling game the Shugoki can become a very slow and drawn out battle of attrition but he is by no means an S-tier fighter in any sense of the word. Every single S-tier and A-tier character has the tools to beat a turtling Shugoki, it's only a matter of how long the Shugo lasts no matter the skill of the Shugoki player. The only way Shugo wins against S and A tier heroes is if the enemy player makes a mistake.



Shugoki Pro's:

1. Fast lights with stamina drain & safe heavy attacks
Um, "safe heavy attacks"? Safe implies he can land them with little to no risk to himself which is not the case at all. "Safe" is a Gladiator or Conq zone.

His lights are 500ms which is the standard speed for most lights. Easily blocked on reaction. They are mostly used to interrupt attacks when Shugo has his hyper armour otherwise you're just asking to get parried.



2. Fast / heavy / faint mixup is simple, but highly effective 3 way guessing game
Not really. It's a standard difficulty mixup. If you're patient and don't make knee jerk reactions then Shugo's feints won't phase you.



3. Huge stamina translates into a great faint game and strong mixup pressure
He has standard stamina. His feint game is weak sauce compared to everyone in the game. He has no mixup pressure to speak of.



4. On attacking hyper armor prevents punishes / interruptions
5. On defense light + headbutt is a strong c-c-c-c-c-combo breaker and a tool that can be used to regain initiative and go into offensive
Headbutt is a great tool for disrupting the enemy and wittling their stamina down but Shugo has zero out of stamina pressure so it's pretty much a dead end. Once he has you OOS he can't do anything to capitalise on that other than charge his heavy into an unblockable and either bait a parry or hope his opponent won't parry it and put Shugo into OOS.



6. Demons Embrace might seem impossible to land , but actually has 3 scenarios where it can't be avoided - when you throw opponent to the wall, when you throw opponent to the ground, parrying a light attack (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!). Strong clutch move that makes Shugoki dangerous when he's low HP, the absolute most lethal punishing potential in the entire game. Actually can also be incorporated into faint game, not sure if glitch or not, but after heavy feint it can be forced to have a quicker windup, bit tricky to use but worth exploring, I managed it while dueling more time's than I expected for it to work.
It's definitely a great clutch move which makes Shugo dangerous until the very end because of its one shot potential when he is low on health. You can't use it from a light parry though, the wind up is too slow. It can be soft feinted into from a non charged neutral heavy yes, that's part of Shugo's kit.



7. Charged attacks are easier to land than people think, can be incorporated into feint game , because people think that you can grab him out of the charge at any time, but actually the window is barely half a second during windup, miss it and you will get force-fed 60 dmg guaranteed, works good when feinting into enemy's who are looking to interrupts with GB, also extremely strong versus all type off assassins that have to lunge, or initiate a combo as their main offensive tool, because with combination of hyper armor you can time the charged heavy during their lunges or even light attack mixups, works phenomenally well against shaman and PK.
Charged heavies are only a threat to opponents who try to fight Shugoki like they fight everyone else by forgeting that he has passive hyper armour or that you cannot GB him if he is already charging it. For this reason Shugo is a good counter character against assassins who love being aggressive and spamming out attacks.



8. Massive health pool.
Not entirely correct. He may have a big health pool but he takes extra damage when his hyper armour is down and thus he can die as fast as a Shinobi if he gets blitzed. In a gank the Shugo can die even before he gets his revenge. I'll take Lawbringer's massive health pool over Shugo's glass jaw health pool any day of the week.



9. Zone attack is both a great gap closer and has mixup potential against certain characters and in certain situations
Only if they don't expect it. It is an easy block on reaction. Its best use is still against minions.



10. GB + heavy is a free win a lot of the time if you are not above ledging people
Yeah, it's a pretty fun ledging tool.



11. Healing with demons embrace is a powerful demoralizer, easy to set up near walls or when throwing victims to the ground
12. Most frightening wall-bang in the game
It's definitely the only reason that Shugo is still hanging in the game.



Shugoki Con's

1. His dodge is criminally slow, so slow in fact that it breaks the game during certain matchups, for example Gladiator toe-stab is undodgable with Shugoki, even if you predict the toe-stab , and dodge prematurely, the gladiator can toe stab you mid dodge (it's that slow lol)
2. No his attack speed is not too slow, I'll explain why , hold up


What many people don't realize is that Shugoki is a pressure monster. When people pick him up in the beginning, they don't realize his mix-up and pressure potential , and decide that OK he's slow, slow attacks, I must play reactionary / defense, but in fact that is exactly where Shugoki is the weakest (however skilled opponents can still use light + headbutt to give themselves breathing space untill hyperarmor comes back).

Not only he's not a defensive / reactionary hero, he's a phenomenal striker. If you get your mixup down to pro levels with him, he is unbelievably quick, he can dish out flurry's that rival some assassins, using his massive stamina pool, health pool and intermediate hyper armor (that gives him enough space to make mistakes without getting punished, and timed well with your attacks and adjusting the mixup, can be recharged multiple times) he really put the pressure on heroes. You might say that he doesn't have fast unblockables, but his chip damage is great (6dmg per heavy), and if the opponents hold block for too long, they'll quickly get chipped down, if they try to parry, shugokis stamina pool and strong faint game makes him extremely capable at fishing for counter parries.

Another factor about Shugoki that is not apparent, is his ability to control the pace of the game. Hyper armor trades with heavies and light+headbutt combo breakers can be strategically used to trigger opponents, throw them off their game, and force them to play on your terms, and if you manage your hyper armor mixup pressures well, it's a pretty depressing situation for anyone that will face you.

And the final overlooked factor about Shugoki, is that he is a master grappler. Using hyper armor he can do some wild, unnatural things with grabbing, for example did you know that he can straight up grab aramusha out of his teleport attack? (which looks hilarious), can also be used to surprise opponents by letting them strike you with heavy, and grabbing them once their attack lands (since you are not staggered), you do this near a wall or near a ledge, and you gain way more than you lose during the trade, WAY MORE.


So in conclusion, Shugoki may seem slow , basic etc, but in the right hands he is simply unreal, his mechanics are just way too wild when compared to other heroes to the point where he truly is an S+++ hero, easily overpowered, however lowkey overlooked because to play him right you must be aware of his mechanics, of his interactions with other heroes and certain scenarios during combat, and In my opinion that is the reason why he is so underplayed right now, he's too difficult to master and the game tutorials are not capable of providing that knowledge in the shape that they are in now.

So I don't know what to make of it, I'm a Shugoki main right now at 73% duel win ratio, I know what he's capable, and I'm definitely not the best Shugoki main out there.

However, knowing intimately well, what a high-rolling Shugoki can do, I have a feeling that the best Shugoki main in the game out there somewhere, is an undisputed champion and simply cannot be defeated by any other player in the game.
Unlikely considering the entier S-tier and A-tier roster have the tools now to break a Shugoki down. A pro player would never gimp themselves by picking Shugoki nowadays because he just isn't competitive. Back when SypherPK took him to the Ubi Hero Series Duel Tournament we still had parries guarranteeing a guardbreak which was a massive advantage for Shugoki.

Nowadays he is hanging in there purely off of the back of his unconventional passive hyper armour plus the one shot ability of Demon's Embrace. Because of those two things Shugoki can always dictate the pace of the fight but his kit is not competitive. If they remove his passive hyper armour and/or the one shot from Demons Embrace they will have to seriously compensate him for that loss as that is the core foundation of the character. If on the other hand they leave those two things in then they really cannot give him anything more as he will become OP.

It's definitely a tough decision on how to rework/buff Shugo. If they do it wrongly Shugo will end up either horribly bad or incredibly OP. If they do nothing Shugo remains uncompetitive at B-tier.

TSCDescon
05-22-2018, 05:17 PM
Shugoki lights are not 500ms, it’s 600ms.

Shugokis feint game is the slowest and weakest in game.

Shugoki does not have any pressure after landing a headbutt.

No evidence to state he’s S+++ tier in the right hands.

Play style is boring to use and go against.

Reworking him is easy. I don’t know why people are saying it’ll be hard to give him a rework.

If the devs wanted Shugoki to rely on his stance, make it an input instead a passive 5 second CD. Example: Full Block and Hidden Stance.

But what do they care? He’s been receiving nerfs not a single buff.

Kryltic
05-22-2018, 06:23 PM
MassiveD. I feel like we are not playing the same characters at all. While the Shugoki is horrendous he's nowhere near S-tier due to his limited move pool. He's joint lowest if I remember correctly.

I like that hes a slower character but hits harder. I don't want to see his attacks becoming faster, he just needs to be able to capitalise on his hits more. Perhaps a damage buff or a passive increase to chip damage on top of my previous suggestions?

MassiveD.
05-22-2018, 07:19 PM
MassiveD. I feel like we are not playing the same characters at all. While the Shugoki is horrendous he's nowhere near S-tier due to his limited move pool. He's joint lowest if I remember correctly.

I like that hes a slower character but hits harder. I don't want to see his attacks becoming faster, he just needs to be able to capitalise on his hits more. Perhaps a damage buff or a passive increase to chip damage on top of my previous suggestions?

Hey man, as a Shugoki main I'll take any buff he get's altho my opinion on him stands.

People always think I'm crazy when I say that Shugoki is S-tier, but in fact I got this idea when I was fighting J.Birse on her stream, and there was another pro player (that I don't remember the name off , it was some time ago, but people in the chat were pretty hype about him), I was playing Orochi at the time, and was voicing out my interest in putting practice into Shugoki, and both JBirse and that other guy were quick to tell me that he's S tier, which sparked a debate in the chat kinda like it did now here on this thread, and sure there are a lot of naysayers, but they are mostly people who really don't understand the tilting power of Shugoki or they haven't put many hours in understanding what Shugoki does.

After that stream and fight I started maining Shugoki, and now I'm having trouble getting back into my other mains (WL / PK / Warden etc), and the reason why I explained above, but you have to play Shugoki for a good amount of time keeping those points in mind and seeing for yourself how they can give you advantage in fight.

In essence, if you boil it down to the very core , Shugokis ability to yoink people out of their combo (what I mean is his ability to grab somebody while trading) is enough to make him S++ tier (just imagine if there was a hero that could get grab on demand every single time, you would scream your lungs out at UBI saying OP OP, and Shugoki can basically do that and it's not something that you can play around, in fact that even improves his feint game because if you miss-time heavy feint into grab it still works due to hyperarmor)

I think a buffed shugoki would still be bad in bad hands, and would be even more devastating in the right hands, because he's such a technical hero

What I think that Shugoki needs, is a pro streamer to step up, or a really good unspotted player who plays Shugoki really well to come out into the streaming scene, hype shugoki up, explain to people how he works, and a lot more people would be more comfortable picking him up. I wish I could be that guy, I have a decent streaming and youtube pedigree, but not in FH, and I'm nowhere near good enough to give Shugoki justice, because I rarely play FH even tho I love it to bits every time I do (time is the issue for me) and I don't have time to train properly.

Maybe in the near future I'll manage to squeeze in a schedule, but untill then I would urge people to look at your friendlists for people who do well with Shugoki's and encourage them to download OBS and step-up, Shugoki is diamond ready to be put to spotlight, mark my words folks

Kryltic
05-22-2018, 07:44 PM
I'm rep 15 with him, hes my second main after Nobushi, so I know what I'm talking about with him. He is definitely not S-tier but he is better than many give him credit for, skilled Shugoki players can force people to play at his pace.

Any decent opponent knows a simple GB will remove his armour and then go into their combos whether it was successful or not. This is where his biggest weakness is, he needs his Stance to play properly, what he needs are tools to keep going even when his Stance is down.

That said, he also needs a way to stop opponents simply fleeing from him and
He needs a way to play with some aggression rather than purely waiting for them to make mistakes or simply waiting for the ability to trade hits with them.

The current statistics show hes not above B-tier, you can believe he is S but with the latest stats he isn't. Perhaps the State of Balance for season 5 will show differently but we shall have to wait a few more days (at most hopefully) before we find out.

MassiveD.
05-22-2018, 07:46 PM
I

Any decent opponent knows a simple GB will remove his armour and then go into their combos whether it was successful or not.

See that's the problem, if your getting your armor removed by GB you are already playing Shugoki wrong, you should be on constant relentless attack, where your hyperarmour can give you openings and also recharge if broken, try to be more aggressive

Kryltic
05-22-2018, 07:56 PM
You lose the Stance as soon as they try to GB you, whether you CGB or not it doesn't matter.

Play too aggressively and you open yourself up to a parry punish.

MassiveD.
05-22-2018, 08:36 PM
You lose the Stance as soon as they try to GB you, whether you CGB or not it doesn't matter.

Play too aggressively and you open yourself up to a parry punish.

You're just talking about who's better at the feint game, if you are better you can fish for counter parries, I went a good length to point that out in my original post.

Shugoki is the most vulnerable on the defensive, and he is the most effective when attacking / pressuring, if you are pu$$y footing as soon as you get hyper armor removed than that is the direct issue of your Shugoki shortcomings, you can argue with me till you're blue in the face, or you could go into duel right now and try to be even more aggressive once your hyperarmor is broken, to not let your opponents capitalize on that, Shugoki can actively replenish hyperarmor 3 times by the time he runs out of stamina while attacking / feinting

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
05-23-2018, 12:31 AM
I agree with this. I'm an expert at Val and just because I can dominate with her doesn't mean she is S tier. I spent 5 min. with the new orochi and was able to dominate most ganks in dominion. Shug is underpowered. He is a glass cannon that misfires. Shaman is a glass cannon that fires straight and fast (her bit is still brutal). Shug should be a monster but his weaknesses are too obvious. One scratch and two individuals can pretty much have their way with him...more so his own hp is deceptive. You can play one game with him and realize he is below the undercard level...he isn't in the same league with the other characters...He isn't really a heavy at all in dominion. With 1v1 he has some staying power but in 2v1 or more he is crap. No staying power.

That_guy44
05-23-2018, 06:18 PM
I begged for a shugoki rework back in December. He's never gonna be fixed.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
05-23-2018, 09:03 PM
As a temp fix they could give him back his oni charge and make his hp normal when his hyper armor is down. Will Oni get abused? Yes, but no more than lawbringer's shove or wardens vortex. Maybe just make it into a stun one hit light attack to headbutt.

The_B0G_
05-23-2018, 09:16 PM
As a temp fix they could give him back his oni charge and make his hp normal when his hyper armor is down. Will Oni get abused? Yes, but no more than lawbringer's shove or wardens vortex. Maybe just make it into a stun one hit light attack to headbutt.

You mean knock down on Oni charge? Block shove only gives LB a light that isn't guarenteed and does around 15 damage. Vortex is a bit better damage wise but you can just roll away and get out of it. I don't think giving shugoki an easy knock down will do anything but take the game backwards a step.

Raiders BS shoulder carry is already annoying enough in group fights, we don't need two of those type attacks going on.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
05-23-2018, 10:58 PM
played shug for two hours last night on dominion. He is fun but his tracking with DE is sooo bad. How do you miss a DE on a person standing still after they execute your teammate...seriously....They aren't moving. It is my hypothesis that DE has better tracking to the right rather then straight ahead. Maybe its just the camera angle but it feels like his tracking is purposefully tilted to his right. When I missed the person straight ahead of me he grabbed to the right of the enemy before he was executed. On a separate note: When I accidently do the DE its an insta-death.

Had like 5 people run from me which was fine because each time I was protecting a zone and got each one down to a sliver of health. Shug is fun when the enemies don't know how to counter your attack and they stand far enough back that you can't press the attack without giving up your edge. Then they try a different strategy and fail so now they are to low on health to continue so they bugger off. Feiting the charged heavies and hitting multiple opponents during team fights is a blast.

Definetly not a tank, but fun to play.

EvoX.
05-23-2018, 11:16 PM
Many people want Valk, Warden, Warlord, Lawbringer to be reworked, so chances for Shugoki to be next is very slim because hardly anyone plays him.

I don't think Warlord will be reworked...

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
05-24-2018, 12:20 AM
You mean knock down on Oni charge? Block shove only gives LB a light that isn't guarenteed and does around 15 damage. Vortex is a bit better damage wise but you can just roll away and get out of it. I don't think giving shugoki an easy knock down will do anything but take the game backwards a step.

Raiders BS shoulder carry is already annoying enough in group fights, we don't need two of those type attacks going on.

I mean instead of the nerfed oni charge to knock down to heavy it goes oni charge to light then headbutt...nothing fancy just a way of keeping enemies engaged. Raider can get a charged heavy on one person. What I'm suggesting is an oni charge that has the ability to stunn mulitple opponents. Like raiders, shug could easily chase down runners and punish both their health and their stamina for leaving the fight. Shug would now be able to strongly punish those that run from him who are out of stamina just like raider does.

I personally think raiders charge is fine. A teammate can punish him for doing it in battle. It wastes so much battle time.

Note: If they gave DE raiders charge's tracking it would be such a great tool.

The_B0G_
05-24-2018, 12:30 AM
I mean instead of the nerfed oni charge to knock down to heavy it goes oni charge to light then headbutt...nothing fancy just a way of keeping enemies engaged. Raider can get a charged heavy on one person. What I'm suggesting is an oni charge that has the ability to stunn mulitple opponents. Like raiders, shug could easily chase down runners and punish both their health and their stamina for leaving the fight. Shug would now be able to strongly punish those that run from him who are out of stamina just like raider does.

I personally think raiders charge is fine. A teammate can punish him for doing it in battle. It wastes so much battle time.

Note: If they gave DE raiders charge's tracking it would be such a great tool.

If you have teammates around, raiders normally dont use the charge though, and if you're outnumbered getting ganked, its pretty annoying. I had a game today when it was 2 raiders sticking together the entire time, definitely in a group, all they did was stunning taps and carries, hard to counter.

I just think Shugoki needs a rework some other way, I can just see him zooming back and forth through group fights like sonic the hedgehog already.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
05-24-2018, 01:50 AM
If you have teammates around, raiders normally dont use the charge though, and if you're outnumbered getting ganked, its pretty annoying. I had a game today when it was 2 raiders sticking together the entire time, definitely in a group, all they did was stunning taps and carries, hard to counter.

I just think Shugoki needs a rework some other way, I can just see him zooming back and forth through group fights like sonic the hedgehog already.

Yes to the sonic thing but it is totally dodgable if you know Shug is doing it and punishable like raiders.

Shugs DE when you hit that revenge button or cornered is annoying. I'll agree that raiders can be annoying when outnumbered but many hero have what I would call a revenge inhibitor move. Shaman's head-butt use to be the best until it got patched. If Val times her shield bash right she can knock down a revenged opponent. PK has her unlocked guardbreak...and who could for get the centurion or the pancake flipper ect.

I agree that Shug needs a rework some other way but as a temporary fix to the issues he has right now of being a weak little kitten in a lions den I think it would be a good work around.