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View Full Version : Kensei's freaking dodge attack



PepsiBeastin
05-19-2018, 02:12 AM
I'm sure most people will agree that these changes need to be made to it

-Remove dodge frames/invincibility when the attack portion starts.
He isn't an assassin and shouldn't be able to rely on a dodge attack to get out of damage so often, and this would also punish him for using it with the wrong timing.

-Decrease the time he can wait to trigger the strike
Other dodge attacks have a much smaller window, and pressing heavy basically makes him do another entire dodge with the distance he travels.

-Add some kind of punishment for missing
If i dodge the strike with a character with bad dodge recovery, kensei can just smack me with a damn hyperarmored light attack. Even without bad recovery, I believe it shouldn't combo into a light and should be guardbreakable if he whiffs.

BTTrinity
05-19-2018, 02:27 AM
I'm sure most people will agree that these changes need to be made to it

-Remove dodge frames/invincibility when the attack portion starts.
He isn't an assassin and shouldn't be able to rely on a dodge attack to get out of damage so often, and this would also punish him for using it with the wrong timing.

-Decrease the time he can wait to trigger the strike
Other dodge attacks have a much smaller window, and pressing heavy basically makes him do another entire dodge with the distance he travels.

-Add some kind of punishment for missing
If i dodge the strike with a character with bad dodge recovery, kensei can just smack me with a damn hyperarmored light attack. Even without bad recovery, I believe it shouldn't combo into a light and should be guardbreakable if he whiffs.

The only thing on it that needs to be changed is the delay before being able to strike. other than that its fine

HazelrahFirefly
05-19-2018, 02:48 AM
That dodge attack is a big reason I hated the new Kensei. Despite all the claims I read on this forum and elsewhere about how you can both attack him and GB him out of it... I've never seen it in game even once.

Take my advice: give up on that s***. Turns out it's a very easy parry once you stop trying to be fancy. Just stand there and parry.

Vakris_One
05-19-2018, 02:57 AM
Kensei's dodge attack? Really? This thing has never really been a credible threat to anyone that isn't a new player.


I'm sure most people will agree that these changes need to be made to it
Don't be too sure on that. Most good players won't agree. The screaming kids and man children portion of this forum however probably will though.



-Remove dodge frames/invincibility when the attack portion starts.
He isn't an assassin and shouldn't be able to rely on a dodge attack to get out of damage so often, and this would also punish him for using it with the wrong timing.
Please show me any dodge attack in the game that cannot dodge a strike when it is timed correctly. The Kensei doesn't have invincibility frames, he has the same dodge strike properties as everyone else with a dodge strike. Secondly, he's a vanguard with a dodge attack as his special thing - Warden has dash into SB, Raider has a side dash into GB. I'd have thought people would learn to live with this fact by now. It's only been like this since the game's launch you know.

"shouldn't be able to rely on a dodge attack to get ouf of damage" - Um, but that's the whole point of a dodge attack. If he gets the timing wrong you can absolutely punish him. Either GB him in his startup, bait him and parry it or dodge it and prepare to block/parry one of his chain finishers. If you let him get the dodge attack off on you in the first place then it is on you to then deal with his finisher mixup. Don't want to deal with the finisher mind games? Then learn to bait and parry his swift strike, it's not that hard.



-Decrease the time he can wait to trigger the strike
Other dodge attacks have a much smaller window, and pressing heavy basically makes him do another entire dodge with the distance he travels.
Sure, why not. It's not a big problem to deal with nor is it a huge advantage for him. It wouldn't change anything if it was removed other than calm some people down about it.



-Add some kind of punishment for missing
If i dodge the strike with a character with bad dodge recovery, kensei can just smack me with a damn hyperarmored light attack. Even without bad recovery, I believe it shouldn't combo into a light and should be guardbreakable if he whiffs.
"Add some kind of punishment for missing" - you mean like parrying his next follow up attack? Because you can totally do that you know.

"should be a guardbreak if he whiffs" - Oh you mean like how Shinobi can be guardbroken on a whiffed kick? Conq can be GBed after a whiffed bash? Zerk can GBed on a whiffed dodge strike? Warlord can be GBed on a whiffed headbutt? Reworked Orochi can be GBed on a whiffed dodge strike? If these characters don't get to be GBed on a whiffed dash attack because their kit allows them to follow up with a light attack then why should the Kensei?

High-Horse
05-19-2018, 03:02 AM
I'm sure most people will agree that these changes need to be made to it I don't agree. If a kensei is swift strike-happy, it's easy to bait and punish. If they're using it properly to avoid attacks, then adapt because you're doing something wrong, like letting attacks fly instead of feinting them and not paying attention to how much they like dodging

Vakris_One
05-19-2018, 03:04 AM
That dodge attack is a big reason I hated the new Kensei. Despite all the claims I read on this forum and elsewhere about how you can both attack him and GB him out of it... I've never seen it in game even once.

Take my advice: give up on that s***. Turns out it's a very easy parry once you stop trying to be fancy. Just stand there and parry.
^ Parrying it is the number one way to handle it. It is a 700ms attack and a highly telegraphed one at that once you know what to look for. Anything else is just being fancy or pre-empting him because you saw his pattern.

PepsiBeastin
05-19-2018, 03:37 AM
Please show me any dodge attack in the game that cannot dodge a strike when it is timed correctly.

"shouldn't be able to rely on a dodge attack to get ouf of damage" - Um, but that's the whole point of a dodge attack.




The point i was making is that since he has such a large time where he can delay his attack, he can wait until someone tries to attack/guardbreak while he's dodging to do the attack, which is unfair.

C4Phaze
05-19-2018, 05:17 AM
The I frames are too much, but i think its made a lot worse with the dodge distance. Kensei can basically side step effectively against up to 3 opponents.

Personally i have a beed with the amount of uninterruptable attacks that he has. Combine that with his feints and his dodge he is in a league of his own.

HazelrahFirefly
05-19-2018, 05:36 AM
^ Parrying it is the number one way to handle it. It is a 700ms attack and a highly telegraphed one at that once you know what to look for. Anything else is just being fancy or pre-empting him because you saw his pattern.

I'm cool with that. Overcoming that one thing, his dodge attack, made me realize just how balanced he is. He might be the closest to balanced that Ubi has gotten lol.

Tyrjo
05-19-2018, 07:30 AM
The power of the dodge heavy, even with a parry you don't really get much of anything out of it. Kensei's who play the dodge turtling game. Wait for any thing from your opponent, then dodge and start their chain. It is kind of safe a move.

Vakris_One
05-19-2018, 03:09 PM
The point i was making is that since he has such a large time where he can delay his attack, he can wait until someone tries to attack/guardbreak while he's dodging to do the attack, which is unfair.
You just need to get used to the time window of when he can still actually initiate a swift strike, the window doesn't last throughout his entire dodge only as long as his sword is glowing white. He still has a dodge recovery after finishing his dash, wait for him to be almost at the end of his dodge before GBing him because then you can be sure that if he hasn't launched into swift strike then it's too late for him to do it.

If you don't want to risk mistiming it then don't react early to his side dodges. He gains nothing from dashing to the side and making no attack and you lose nothing for letting him do it. Instead work on parrying him when he does throw the swift strike and work on baiting out a swift strike with feints. You have options available to you to handle this move. I honestly wouldn't bat an eyelash if the delay to swift strike was removed but it is far from unfair. It's simply an extension of Kensei's mind games.


The I frames are too much, but i think its made a lot worse with the dodge distance. Kensei can basically side step effectively against up to 3 opponents.

Personally i have a beed with the amount of uninterruptable attacks that he has. Combine that with his feints and his dodge he is in a league of his own.
Kensei has always been strong against ganks because of the distance he moves during his dodge strike. Why would they take that away from him when it is a fundamental part of this character?

Only his light finishers and side heavy finishers are uninterruptable. He has to actually work his way towards them unlike say Zerk who generates hyper armour on a 400ms light just from feinting any heavy from neutral. If anyone is in a league of their own it's the 2 characters who are in S-tier; Conq and Zerk and formerly the pre-rework PK. Kensei is comfortably in A-tier where the majority of heros are nowadays.


The power of the dodge heavy, even with a parry you don't really get much of anything out of it. Kensei's who play the dodge turtling game. Wait for any thing from your opponent, then dodge and start their chain. It is kind of safe a move.
If he's overly reliant on punishing you with a dodge strike then that makes him easily susceptible to being baited with a heavy feint and into a parry. How can you say you don't get much from a heavy parry when you drain stamina AND get a guarranteed light attack? His swift strike is only 20 damage. Most characters have a light attack from neutral that can do 20 damage plus the stamina drain from the parry. That's a pretty decent payoff for parrying one of the game's slowest and most telegraphed dodge strikes.