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View Full Version : Can Nobushi Get a Rework?



KotoKuraken
05-17-2018, 01:49 PM
I feel like Nobushi is in a pretty bad spot. While Warden is pretty much top light or zone if you don't Vortex, and Valk has her issues with only being able to light or bash if she doesn't sweep, Nobushi doesn't really have a good way to get the edge on her opponent.

So, unlike any other character with a dodge attack, her dodge attacks don't "dodge". The Cobra Strike can seem useful if you remember to use it after a parry, but otherwise using it outright is easily parried. Sidewinder just seems like a slower zone attack. It's alright for damage, but doesn't dodge or interrupt opponents, and is pretty easy to parry since it can't be cancelled after the extremely visible startup.

Her regular lights are also relatively easy to parry as well. She does have the advantage of quick, normal side lights, but the follow ups are slow and often easily parried, so she has to resort to just poking every so often for 12 damage at a time after a bunch of feinting and Hidden Stance play.

I think the main reason she was incredibly strong before her changes awhile back was due to the exploits she had at her disposal, namely with unlock tech. However, she just doesn't have the means to do well in her current state. She has a respectable amount of damage in the rest of her kit, but the problem is that she can't use most of it in a fight against someone who can perform basic parries and dodge her easily reactable kick.

Tyrjo
05-17-2018, 02:02 PM
She got tweaked positively in 1v1 recently so it is unlikely that there is anything substantial coming soon I think.

BTTrinity
05-17-2018, 02:23 PM
She got tweaked positively in 1v1 recently so it is unlikely that there is anything substantial coming soon I think.

What in her "Major balance change" was positive for 1v1 other than 600ms kick? They nerfed the living poo poo out of literally everything else and added in a follow up for a move that doesnt even work or get used in the first place -- Her place in 1v1 hardly changed.

Unless the Nobushi is very experienced, turtles and plays like a GOD around hidden stance, she really is in a pretty bad spot....

Which that statement brings me to my next point, shes only viable because of hidden stance....

- Her dodge attacks are nearly worthless and can only dodge a small handful of moves with them

Make it so you can attack later into the dodge, or make it an actual Assassin/Kensei style dodge attack

- Swift recoil/retreat is worthless because all the opponent has to do is swing another time and youll get caught during the back dodge

Make it so Swift Recoil/Retreat move breaks tracking for a second so it can actually be used

- She has a 600ms zone that deals the same damage as 500ms zones (I get that needed a nerf, but I think it was a little to severe)

I say bring it to 25 damage from 20

- If you kick someone into a wall, you're punished for being within striking and wont be able to land your heavy.

Make heavy follow ups after kick a bit faster so this doesnt happen?

- Hidden Stance Stamina Cost Reduction or stamina regen delay buff?

Now, I'm not saying she needs ALL of this, I mainly wanna see her dodge attacks be actual dodge attacks and swift recoil not be a dead move in her kit.

Knight_Raime
05-17-2018, 05:37 PM
With how strong her hidden stance is it would have to be nerfed if they were going to give her some good offense. I reg land lots of her moves because i'm learning the timings on when to use them and what to use them on. For instance when fighting a centurion whos using a lot of heavies you hidden stance one and then side winder. Kick is too slow and the double light poke will be blocked or parried because of his recovery and seeing an indicator immediately.

Hidden stance heavies also guarantee a kick on everyone now if it's blocked or lands. (previously orochi and raider could dodge after but the newest patch is fixing that.)
Really the only 2 things that miff me about Nobushi is her dodges not being even some what decent for dodging and her stamina cost overall. As long as your opponent doesn't play passively nobushi is still plenty good.

Fairemont
05-17-2018, 06:46 PM
I love Nobushi enough to play almost exclusively Nobushi. While I am by no means an amazing player, Nobushi is in a spot that makes her very difficult to tweak. Hidden stance, as Knight_Raime says, is an incredibly potent tool and Nobushi hinges entirely off of it. It allows her to feint effectively with both lights and heavy attacks, allows her to kick from "neutral", and can dodge pretty much anything that is not a guard break. It even dodges Highlands grab, which I found interesting.

Swift Recoil could use a tweak so that, as you say, it has an actual dodge property. Otherwise its just going to get you hit. Right now, it is still very useful, but only when you know the opponent cannot follow up with an attack. So its best used at the end of an attack chain. Granted, it is then useless against characters with solid lunge attacks like Shaman, Orochi, or PK, who can just fly forward and get you during swift recoils suspiciously long recovery.


One thing I found out that helped me a lot is that Viper's Retreat is a sorely misunderstood tool. Sure, it can poke once, but it weaves nicely into combos. You can cancel it into sidewinder which is very potent because its VERY hard to anticipate and Sidewinder is one of her fastest attacks. Not to mention if Viper's Retreat hit they will take VERY high damage if Sidewinder hits.


Her biggest weakness is attacking out of neutral. She has absolutely no method of opening people up that does not rely on them attacking first or baiting an attack and taking advantage of it. Throw out some long-range heavies and whiff them to get a kick in or something.Try a light or heavy feint into hidden stance.

You can probably even cancel a heavy with a traditional feint and hit immediately into a sidewinder. She has a deceptively enormous toolkit when you really delve into the nitty-gritty of it and look at all the ways to take advantage of her recovery cancels.

Roseguard_Cpt
05-17-2018, 08:13 PM
I've got her to rep 24 and I feel that of the OG roster she is one of the few who DOESN'T need a rework. Her kit is quite good especially when you learn how to be more effective with hidden stance. I feel that with just a bit of tuning to damage and attack speed she'd be fine. Might just be me but I'm against the whole "Rework" idea because it's usually too drastic, not enough, or in the case of PK, a bug fix and damage tuning

Helnekromancer
05-17-2018, 08:31 PM
I'm currently at Rep 41 with Nobushi on Xbox

She needs more offensive abilities

Hidden Stance is a neat ability but the light doesn't come out fast enough and the assassin will just keep swinging and hit you. And even if she successfully land her 2 lights after Hidden stance anything else after that will get punished so she is back to being defensive and waiting.

Swift Recoil sounds cool on paper but any Hero with a lunge or dash attack hits you while you are still in the animation, it needs to block all incoming attacks while in animation for it to be even worth using.

Her kick is too slow, anyone who plays the game frequently will dodge it after been it with it once or twice and even if you land it you only get the free light, anything else after will get parried and punished.

Her neutral game is bad, her neutral lights, side dash lights, side dash heavies and neutral heavies are all parry bait, her stance gives it away and are too slow. How do you open people up? You pray they stand there and let you enter Hidden stance to kick them, in which they dodge and punish you. Compared to the other Hybrids, Lawbringer and Valkyrie have several unblockables that forces the enemy to react. I think Lawbringer has 2 his shove and flip and Valkyrie has 3 her sweep, shield bash, and shield dash.

Her stamina pool is either too small or her moves burn too much stamina, because of this Nobushi constantly has to stop herself or else she gets winded even though she barely did anything so you never actually turn the tide of the fight and gain momentum, its like Nobushi has Asthma or something and it shows in the Event game mode, she's the first to oom and the first to die.

Knight_Raime
05-17-2018, 08:42 PM
I'm currently at Rep 41 with Nobushi on Xbox

She needs more offensive abilities

Hidden Stance is a neat ability but the light doesn't come out fast enough and the assassin will just keep swinging and hit you. And even if she successfully land her 2 lights after Hidden stance anything else after that will get punished so she is back to being defensive and waiting.

Swift Recoil sounds cool on paper but any Hero with a lunge or dash attack hits you while you are still in the animation, it needs to block all incoming attacks while in animation for it to be even worth using.

Her kick is too slow, anyone who plays the game frequently will dodge it after been it with it once or twice and even if you land it you only get the free light, anything else after will get parried and punished.

Her neutral game is bad, her neutral lights, side dash lights, side dash heavies and neutral heavies are all parry bait, her stance gives it away and are too slow. How do you open people up? You pray they stand there and let you enter Hidden stance to kick them, in which they dodge and punish you. Compared to the other Hybrids, Lawbringer and Valkyrie have several unblockables that forces the enemy to react. I think Lawbringer has 2 his shove and flip and Valkyrie has 3 her sweep, shield bash, and shield dash.

Her stamina pool is either too small or her moves burn too much stamina, because of this Nobushi constantly has to stop herself or else she gets winded even though she barely did anything so you never actually turn the tide of the fight and gain momentum, its like Nobushi has Asthma or something and it shows in the Event game mode, she's the first to oom and the first to die.

The key with Bushi is knowing what to use and when. Hidden stance into double light isn't a catch all thing. It's usually best used on someone who's doing an attack that requires movement (like shaman's pounce) or it has decent end recovery like a finisher. Kick out of hidden stance is actually her most reliable response. And for moves her kick can't deal with hidden stance into say side winder is a decent option. Against a turtly opponent a hidden stanced heavy when blocked is a free kick. Plus you can delay your hidden stance to dodge other things by using a heavy and then going into hidden stance instead of feinting it traditionally.
Her lights from neutral are bad initiatiors but good for interrupt. etc.

She's not a hero that is good at forcing someone open. Her kick on HS heavy block is really the only tool that does that. She's meant to be able to respond well to an aggressor. LB doesn't have a good opener at all. and valks sweep and shield bash both have stupidly long recoveries if they miss.

Bushi's pool isn't small far as I know. it's more Bushi spending a lot of stamina with feints and moves/hidden stance in order to get one to two hits in.

BTTrinity
05-17-2018, 09:55 PM
With how strong her hidden stance is it would have to be nerfed if they were going to give her some good offense. I reg land lots of her moves because i'm learning the timings on when to use them and what to use them on. For instance when fighting a centurion whos using a lot of heavies you hidden stance one and then side winder. Kick is too slow and the double light poke will be blocked or parried because of his recovery and seeing an indicator immediately.

Hidden stance heavies also guarantee a kick on everyone now if it's blocked or lands. (previously orochi and raider could dodge after but the newest patch is fixing that.)
Really the only 2 things that miff me about Nobushi is her dodges not being even some what decent for dodging and her stamina cost overall. As long as your opponent doesn't play passively nobushi is still plenty good.

I know we've spoke about Nobu a couple times, but Ill give my input again anyway.

Her kit doesnt suggest she should be an aggressor in the slightest and considering most heroes are being reworked for better offensive capabilities, I think Nobushi and Orochi going the opposite way is reasonable.

Hidden stance while good is very (Reasonably) limited due to its stamina use and delay... I think giving her another less expensive defensive option is what she needs, also tweaking her dodge attacks (Including swift recoil/retreat) is very welcome.

ArmoredChocobo
05-17-2018, 11:16 PM
I think she needs more opportunities to punish an opening.

If she dodges, she should be able to capitalize on that, but her “dodge attacks” either dodges with no attack, or attacks with no dodge. It’s hard to believe that Kensei, the guy with the Sephiroth sword and heavy armor, is more dodgy than the cloth-wearing snake-lady and her Ginsu-on-a-stick.

While we’re at it maybe make her heavies faster so they’re more than a sign saying “hey, parry this. PARRY THIS THING. It’s coming at you! Hey! Gonna parry yet?”

Erhanninja
05-19-2018, 01:18 PM
While other heroes gets over reworked they nerfed nobushi to tbe ground. She has no openers slow attacks very easy to parry. Mix ups depend on hidden stance but it consumes so much stamina cant even do anything. Two hidden stance two kick out of stamina already. Hidden stance is so slow its practically useless at this point of the game because most heroes do second light attack faster than Light coming out from hidden stance. Kick is also very slow any little experiences player can avoid it with ease every single time. If enemy is turtling there is nothing Nobushi can do to open up.

SenBotsu893
05-19-2018, 05:02 PM
random idea: make her bleed stack same way pk bleed stacks now.

that might be a start to help her out after the severe damage nerf

BTTrinity
05-19-2018, 06:36 PM
random idea: make her bleed stack same way pk bleed stacks now.

that might be a start to help her out after the severe damage nerf

Honestly, damage is my last issue with her kit.... Her damage output is still high, just she lacks utility...

like Armored Chocobo said above.

"If she dodges, she should be able to capitalize on that, but her “dodge attacks” either dodges with no attack, or attacks with no dodge. It’s hard to believe that Kensei, the guy with the Sephiroth sword and heavy armor, is more dodgy than the cloth-wearing snake-lady and her Ginsu-on-a-stick."

ProtoSoul9
05-19-2018, 10:15 PM
Honestly, damage is my last issue with her kit.... Her damage output is still high, just she lacks utility...

like Armored Chocobo said above.

"If she dodges, she should be able to capitalize on that, but her “dodge attacks” either dodges with no attack, or attacks with no dodge. It’s hard to believe that Kensei, the guy with the Sephiroth sword and heavy armor, is more dodgy than the cloth-wearing snake-lady and her Ginsu-on-a-stick."

Completely agree, with pretty much everything.
The dodge attack is the main thing for me.
Hidden stance attacks could maybe come out a little faster.
Dodging with hidden stance isn't easy (at least not for me)

Even if she just gets the dodge attack I would be happy.