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View Full Version : I'm terrified of the reworked orochi.



RenegadeTX2000
05-16-2018, 09:57 PM
Orochi vs HIghlander MU in particular... I don't know. It was already annoying because of riptide strike beating out highlanders Celtic curse.

But with new riptide strike, it feels like it will also beat out his kick/grab mix up and every other mix up he does out of offense stance.

The more characters that get reworked the more highlander struggles. Dodge attacks that either nullify his mix up or completely avoids it.

Shaman, Valkyrie, Orochi, Shinobi infiinite side dodge, can completely counter the highlander mix up.

Kensei just dodges everything and the mix up vs him is completely useless.

If your kit can nullify Highlanders mix up you can effectively beat him. Only way for Highlander to bait is to throw a quick offense unblockable feint and go for parry on the quick dodge attacks or go for crushing counter on slow ones like kensei.

Baiting Shaman gets old because it's fast and it's a heavy and all highlander gets is a light.

Kensei can delay his dodge attack so he can see the results before being baited into attempting his dodge attack.

Seems like every new reworked character will be able to beat Highlander at this rate, and the only way for him to keep up is too...

Give Highlander Hyper armor on his cancel offense mix up. Baylors might>>>Cancel>> Hyper armor kick, cancel hyper armor toss...

Or Kick>>>Cancel hyper armor grab.

That's only way he'll be able to keep up in the long term against characters that can nullify his mix up just by spamming the dodge attack once they see he's committed.

In return, make his whiffed kick have more recovery so people can guard break him if they successfully read his raw attempt at kick opener or baylors might cancel into kick.Because sometimes when people avoid kick and go for GB, Highlander can just spam the kick again and completely avoid being punished heavily. Kinda lame lool

Vendelkin
05-16-2018, 10:48 PM
I disagree as Someone who has recently played highlander up to 3 rep (i know its not that much but its enough to know how he functions fairly soundly) and has barely touched his orochi-used-to-be-main since release. Regardless of the highlanders position the Orochi very seriously needed a change, especially in higher skill leveled play. Also Highlander mix ups are not the only thing he has going for him. Highlanders best tool is his superior guard advantage on light attack startup. I've burned so many people by just light attacking in place of parry. Changes to orochi will not mess with this directly at all, and even then arguing against a characters rework because of a single match up is sad. Supporting the Buff all don't nerf anyone idea is best.

I hope you don't read this as a "Git Gud" post tho cause its not. I agree that even after recent changes the highlander is not in the best place still, but he certainly isn't as weak as you're imagining.

As a highlander currently im extremely happy paired up against an orochi or a shinobi... Shaman, Valk and Kensei tho are frustrating. I'm also always happy about a pairing against a shugoki or any of the heavies TBH.

Point being IMO if highlander is strong against all heavies, but weak against a few others... that's not actually all that imbalanced.

"If your kit can nullify Highlanders mix up you can effectively beat him. Only way for Highlander to bait is to throw a quick offense unblockable feint and go for parry on the quick dodge attacks or go for crushing counter on slow ones like kensei." Also not completely true. Highlander can already damage trade pretty well on a placed hyper armor strike, and again as i said above use the superior block light attacks instead of parrying. I never try to parry as a highlander unless im fighting a very heavy or unbalancing an opponent, OR after light attack heavy feint to bait a parry and parrying in return.

I do agree with you about the Kensei matchup tho. Kensei's are god awful strong right now, and not just against the highlander. As almost any class I play (my mains are Orochi, Highlander, Aramusha, kensei (cause well... as i said god easy strong) Shinobi and Lawbringer... I hate kenseis)

The problem with Kick>>>Cancel into hyper armor grab is it would then de balance all dodging units massively. Moves like kick have to be dodged and to then to not be able to do anything at all as an assassin is kinda BS. this is a very poor and OP idea. Kick should never be used against enemies with dodge attacks.(which is why the feint into grab exists that is near undodgeable) that's just something you should know.


This being said I'm not completely happy with orochi's rework, tho of course that may change upon actually getting to play him. My main complaint was, and still is, that his deflect attacks were more risk, less reward, than just parrying. His deflects need to be changed somehow i feel.

Vendelkin
05-16-2018, 11:03 PM
THis video is why a guard armor out of kick/grab is a terrible idea.
https://youtu.be/3jLf1uqTvl8

Knight_Raime
05-16-2018, 11:35 PM
The only way I would be fine with making his kick/toss mix up safer is if his damage got reverted.

RenegadeTX2000
05-17-2018, 06:47 PM
The thing about his kit though is his offense stance is all he has, and if you shut that down he isn't all that good to begin with.


Honestly I would give what I suggested but if he hits you with the unblockable for 40 dmg it resets the fight like Gladiators toe stab so you aren't in range for the 50/50 mix up with kick...

THAT would be fair. Going for the 50/50 after 50/50 after 50/50 is insane but if the fight was reset in neutral after baylors might it would be a lot better and you'd see true highlanders vs people being carried by the 50/50.


And his defense stance light is decent, i think you are giving it too much credit. for how slow it is, doing only 15 dmg doing it raw is just depressing, should do 20damage for how slow it is.


If the fight was put back into a proper space after landing 40 dmg then you would see more use of forceful defensive stance celtic curse openers to get back into range to put pressure on.

RenegadeTX2000
05-17-2018, 06:50 PM
pretty much space it out so if they land that 40dmg unblockable, if they go for kick they won't be in range to land it and if you see it, you know first hand it won't connect so you just whiff punish him for it and if you just want to see him whiff it or to see him actually go for grab then just punish him hard for doing it. Wouldn't be a true 50/50 since you are out of range.