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View Full Version : Warden rework and discussion



Jazz117Volkov
05-12-2018, 11:20 AM
The Wardens
"Members of an ancient order...fallen into dust. Sworn to defend the weak, masters of the longsword. Their origins lost to history; still they fight for what is right. Driven by duty, devoted to their people... but only a few may join their order."




https://78.media.tumblr.com/71564dcc059d69777dbd084844f5822b/tumblr_o8tvd0yPEp1s7dhyjo1_500.gif



I've compiled a list of adjustments and additions that I think would serve the Warden's kit, without making it too overpowered or warping the core traits of the character. And I think the core traits are important; in the case of the Warden, those traits are power and the ability to press forward, and offense/defense balance; represented by the shoulder bash and the crushing counter, respectively.

This is somewhat a (very late) response to a discussion Knight_Raime (https://forums.ubi.com/member.php/1824519-Knight_Raime) and I were having in his thread, here (https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1866961-fix-all-the-heros!-(a-rebalance-thread)). So, without faffing about, I'll get right to breaking things down and talking about shortcomings and suggested fixes.


Shoulder bash
To echo what I said in the aforementioned discussion, the shoulder bash needs hyper armour after the feint window closes (that includes the feint to guard break). The idea is, if you commit to your shoulder bash, it will do its job, unless your opponent gets out of the way.

Thematically, as a Warden, I should be able to press forward through an attacking enemy; my head and shoulders are covered in steel. If I make a judgement call and say, hey, I can get more from this trade than this guy, I should be able to tank the hit and start my combo.

A practical hyper armour activation time would make charging the shoulder bash a viable counter to heavy attacks too. As it stands, charged shoulder bash is maybe the most worthless move in the game, but, if you could tank a hit while you charge it and answer with a 40 damage top heavy, then you've got a genuinely useful move.

And to be a bit more technical, I also propose removing the miss recovery if the shoulder bash was chained from a dodge (this is my solution for a Warden opener). If your bash started with a light attack, the recovery should be left as it is, but dodge into shoulder bash should feel safer. This would mean you can also respond to late dodging attacks with a block (not parry), so on average, the worst case scenario is the fight returns to neutral (unless a lawbringer or shinobi hits you with their dodge bash/kick, etc.). Main point is, the Warden should be able to use his or her signature move to attack from neutral without fear of being overly punished.

Heavy soft-feint into shoulder bash. I personally like this idea, but I'm concerned it would be too overpowered, or too "cancerous", to use a more understandable term, because that's not what I want form a Warden rework. Heavy attack soft-feint into shoulder bash soft-feint into guardbreak is too much, in my opinion. I would be curious to hear other player's thoughts on this one.



Combos and special moves
Uninterruptible light chain finisher (based on an idea by Knight_Raime), not to be confused with unblockable. It could look like this (https://i.imgur.com/PWnnrfJ.mp4), and you would perform it by following any attack with a light attack from a different direction: top heavy into side light, side light into top light, etc. Even if blocked, it will chain into a shoulder bash. It would have the same damage and speed properties as the top light [ 500 ms | 15 dmg ]. This wouldn't be a tool to use from neutral, but it would allow you to maintain pressure with the shoulder bash after landing a heavy.



Unblockable top heavy chain finisher. I think this is a must. The Warden is in desperate need of a bait for the crushing counter strike. This attack wouldn't need a unique animation (though I think that would be really cool), it would be the same 40 damage and 900 ms top heavy, but with an unblockable modifier added. This attack would follow any light or heavy attack, successful shoulder bash, or parry. Its only hidden feature would be an optional late parry window.

Expediant side heavy. Any side heavy that follows any other attack (that isn't a chain finisher) should be 700 ms and 25 dmg. This attack can chain into either the light or heavy chain finisher, giving the Warden the possibility of a four hit chain: side light combo 2x + expediant side heavy + light chain finisher or top heavy chain finisher or standard side heavy [800 ms | 30 dmg ].

As a final suggestion, I propose giving the 100 ms crushing counter startup block properties. At the moment, if your opponent's attack registers in that first 100 ms, you're staggered out of your curshing counter and you take whatever damage was heading for you. What I propose is, your crushing counter still cancels, but isntead of eating the damage you only lose a chunk of stamina, and there's a really distinct noise to inform your opponent that they almost lost half their health. I understand that everything in For Honor should have a degree of risk involved but, thematically, I think attacking a Warden from high guard should never feel safe, and practically, crushing counters are constantly baited for light parries, and the guard switch delay makes it difficult to counter light attacks even with a perfect connection.

KotoKuraken
05-12-2018, 07:38 PM
You already have hyperarmor when your feint window closes. Since you can still feint your shoulder bash to gb on uncharged, you don't get hyper.

But if you charge up your shoulder bash, you will notice that you get hyperarmor on that bash and a free top heavy if you land that charged shoulder bash.

As far as your recommendations of chaining into shoulder bash; no. The last thing he needs is to become someone who is nothing but shoulder bashes. If he were to turn to that direction, we'd need to take away his shoulder bash feint into guardbreak, because then you'd be a Conqueror who did twice the damage from a bash and also had a 50/50 to get a guardbreak into free heavy.

His rework needs to focus on his swordplay, not his shoulder. He's a swordsman, not a shoulderman.

Jazz117Volkov
05-12-2018, 11:24 PM
You already have hyperarmor when your feint window closes. Since you can still feint your shoulder bash to gb on uncharged, you don't get hyper.

But if you charge up your shoulder bash, you will notice that you get hyperarmor on that bash and a free top heavy if you land that charged shoulder bash.

That isn't the case. Yes, a charged bash gets hyper armour right before it launches, but there is no utility there. It's only practical against someone who doens't know the game or makes a large mistake. If you're focused and prepared, shutting down a shoulder bash with lights is guaranteed. Even if you trade with the bash directly (hit in the same frames it hits you), the Warden is still staggered and gets 0 damage from the attack.



https://youtu.be/VaK99muySWo




As far as your recommendations of chaining into shoulder bash; no.Warden already chains into shoulder bash...that's how you shoulder bash. Which part of my post are you talking about, specifically?

KotoKuraken
05-12-2018, 11:39 PM
Yes, that is when the feint window closes (right before you release the charged shoulder bash) and that is when you get the hyperarmor. And yes, a light attack should interrupt shoulder bash if even Conq gets interrupted by a light even though he has a big shield. It would be completely broken if you couldn't interrupt that bash. And putting hyperarmor on that bash before it launches would start to feel a lot like Highlander's already bs kick into heavy


"Heavy soft-feint into shoulder bash. I personally like this idea, but I'm concerned it would be too overpowered, or too "cancerous", to use a more understandable term, because that's not what I want form a Warden rework. Heavy attack soft-feint into shoulder bash soft-feint into guardbreak is too much, in my opinion. I would be curious to hear other player's thoughts on this one."
-Yes, you would be right about this, it would be pretty cancerous considering he has the ability to either guardbreak or double light from his shoulder bash, while others like Conq and Kensei don't get any similar 50/50 mixups from their bashes.

"Even if blocked, it will chain into a shoulder bash. It would have the same damage and speed properties as the top light [ 500 ms | 15 dmg ]. This wouldn't be a tool to use from neutral, but it would allow you to maintain pressure with the shoulder bash after landing a heavy."
-This wouldn't be good for the game. It would be better than Lawbringer, actually, considering Lawbringer has to land the heavy to get a bash that doesn't have a guaranteed light attack. Again, if Warden didn't have that 50/50 that guaranteed a double light or had a huge chance of getting that guardbreak off (I've had plenty of times where even my side dash or side bash attacks still got guardbroken while attempting to counter this move) then it would be a welcome change. At the moment though, sb shouldn't be a central move to his moveset.

The other changes you listed seemed fine to me, because I genuinely want to see Warden as an expert swordsman who actually uses his sword

Jazz117Volkov
05-12-2018, 11:54 PM
Yes, that is when the feint window closes (right before you release the charged shoulder bash) and that is when you get the hyperarmor. If I recall, the feint window is 400 ms; that's both for hard feinting and soft feinting into guard break. The charged bash hyper armour doesn't kick in till about 700 or 800 ms (I'm pulling numbers out of the air, but it would be in that vicinity). As you can see in the video I linked, I interrupted the Warden's charge multiple times after the feint window had closed (more then 400 ms after the attack began).


And yes, a light attack should interrupt shoulder bash if even Conq gets interrupted by a light even though he has a big shield. It would be completely broken if you couldn't interrupt that bash. And putting hyperarmor on that bash before it launches would start to feel a lot like Highlander's already bs kick into heavy But that's the path the game has taken. Like it or not, everyone has some sort of tool to cut through attacking enemies...except Warden, who in my opinion should be the best at it.

-Yes, you would be right about this, it would be pretty cancerous considering he has the ability to either guardbreak or double light from his shoulder bash, while others like Conq and Kensei don't get any similar 50/50 mixups from their bashes. Yeah, fair enough. That's inline with what I was thinking.


-This wouldn't be good for the game. It would be better than Lawbringer, actually, considering Lawbringer has to land the heavy to get a bash that doesn't have a guaranteed light attack. Again, if Warden didn't have that 50/50 that guaranteed a double light or had a huge chance of getting that guardbreak off (I've had plenty of times where even my side dash or side bash attacks still got guardbroken while attempting to counter this move) then it would be a welcome change. At the moment though, sb shouldn't be a central move to his moveset. It's still a light attack though, it could be parried, blocked, deflected, etc. It's just a tool for the Warden to maintain pressure.