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View Full Version : Orochi rework. Please polish some fundamental edges while you are at it.



Jasado
05-10-2018, 07:04 PM
For instance. If you've decided he will not have any unblockables (deflect counters are true combos anyways, don't be intentionally obtuse) nor will he have any access to a martial technique or bash...please improve his embarassingly bad guard break. The range is terrible, and the throw range is also terrible. Please adjust this. Leaving it as is when you are removing the 50/50 grab after Storm Rush is not taking the character's other issues into consideration.

Another thing. Riptide strike becoming a light attack is...well. It used to serve as a life or death gamble at low health - people were more likely to be countered by it and die for the execute. I notice such a heavy emphasis on Orochi's light attacks but his heavies are almost never going to land outside of grabs, which, since you took it off of storm rush, see my earlier point. In the end, this just makes it even harder for Orochi to actually execute someone, which is a valid concern for an assassin - I am already squishy, having my targets be up for revival really forces gamelay choices that are anti-thetical to being an assassin when I have to camp a corpse because my entire kit is light attack obsessed.

With that exact point in mind, Hurricane Blast still does not execute. Can you explain the thinking behind this? I believe if you are doing a rework passover, this is another element alongside the pitiful guardbreak that can be updated. I believe if I manage a deflect in this 33ms delayed environment then risk doing the delayed attack AND connect, when it is a HEAVY attack, I should be able to execute the enemy since it's literally the definition of my character as a counter attacker.

(As a side note, I want to mention forward deflects have become suspiciously unresponsive, and I'm not the only one feeling this.)

In summary, if you're reworking Orochi, take the opportunity to properly update some of his outdated elements. If there is no unblockable or bashes being added, please give his guardbreak range/toss distance some love, doubly so because you are removing it as a 50/50 from storm rush in lieu of giving him more light attacks. Also, if Hurricane Blast doesn't deserve to execute, please explain why. Heavy attacks are hard enough to land as Orochi, you usually just feint them to bait parries - I would assume that is the reasoning towards making him light-centric, even removing his riptide execute option. But if Orochi grab remains as is, I can't grab out of parry, I can't grab out of storm rush, I can't execute from Hurricane Blast, and Riptide Strike is a light now, I can't execute anyone realistically. That's a valid concern.

Anyways, since this rework means Orochi will probably not be focused on again for quite some time, I wanted to mention a few small but important changes that could really help lock-in the aftereffects of the rework, while keeping the rework changes in mind.

Knight_Raime
05-10-2018, 07:17 PM
Pretty sure his GB range isn't different compared to most heros. His throw distance is bad yes. But unsure why you'd really want to throw with him outside OOS (where you get 2 heavies.)

Not sure why you think it's going to be harder for him to get executions. New storm rush isn't going to be reactable on dodge/stance side and the indicators for all 3 start at 300ms, 400ms, and 500ms respectively. Meaning reacting to it in terms of parrying is going to be difficult. So if people fell for your riptide strike trying to parry it this should be a decent substitute. He's also able to dodge out of light finishers and heavy finishers recovery. so SR is still easy to access. And he has easier access to heavy finishers. Which means easier bait for parries.

I mean centurions eagle talons on a killing blow doesn't execute either.

Jasado
05-10-2018, 08:01 PM
Raime, if you're just going to troll, don't post. I get it, you like to start fights by saying things clearly not true, using really bad fallacies to compare, and intentionally trying to undermine any attempt at improving the game...I just have to wonder where you get the energy. I will commend you, because some of the things you say are so clearly wrong, yet you post them so convincingly, I can't tell if you actually believe yourself. And that's the sign of a good troll.

But here, for the sake of old times, I will actually feed you, you poor wandering soul.

His gb range and tracking as a whole is very different compared to most heroes. If you don't understand this, then don't comment on it, you don't know enough about the situation to offer anything contructive.

You say you are unsure why you would want to throw anyone anywhere as Orochi. Great! Don't comment about it then, because you aren't sure what you're talking about - if you don't get it, then on what grounds are you contesting it? For instance, a wall, for a guaranteed heavy on top of postioning pressure, a ledge kill, throwing them into hazards or other teammates, your own traps or teammates traps, the possibilities are endless. Really obvious reasons. If you can't perceive really obvious applications that apply to the fundamentals of the game, then I can't help you be "sure".

Storm rush is only undodgeable when you do it in top stance. Yes, this one attack will be decent at landing a heavy. That does not negate the point of needing more methods than 1. Keep in mind the old 50/50 grab after storm rush was when you landed the old one, so landing storm rush isn't actually the point of contention, having more situations than 1 gimmick to execute is. The various situations in where heavies are disappearing rapidly was listed in the post, so there should be no confusion for you. So no, it is NOT a decent substitute for riptide being a light now, as before I could use riptide and storm rush both to execute, now I can only use one. The point is that it is a net loss. You're being disingenuous by saying new storm rush counts as both old storm rush as well as replacing ripride. No. It just replaces old storm rush. That is why it is being reworked.

You mentioned easier bait for parries. And? That doesn't guarantee heavies, so it has nothing to do with my point. Parrying as Orochi is not an issue here. If you're going to talk about my point, talk about my point. Don't change the goalpost. If you don't want to talk about my points, why are you in this topic?

Ah, to address your last stinky bait, the false equivalence of eagle talon to hurricane blast. Well, hurricane blast is much harder to pull off than eagle talon. Secondly, eagle talon takes place on the ground, when the opponent is on their back. Hurricane blast kills people standing up, the same as raiders zone and other heavies, meaning there is no break in the coding for it giving you an execution prompt, nor does anything special need to be added to make it an execution. All that needs to happen is letting that attack offer the prompt. So, the situation is both totally different in terms of risk versus rewars as well as an entirely different context as to why it should be appropriate and fits other game design decisions on why it would be a valid opportunity to add an execute. The fact you would offer such a poor argument implies to me that you just want to argue, Raime. Which really, you can do that anywhere. Put some effort into it and be constructive if you want to add to the conversation. At this point, you're just having a bad attitude and attempting to derail. Go make your own topic about that if that's how you're going to act.

Knight_Raime
05-10-2018, 08:39 PM
Raime, if you're just going to troll, don't post. I get it, you like to start fights by saying things clearly not true, using really bad fallacies to compare, and intentionally trying to undermine any attempt at improving the game...I just have to wonder where you get the energy. I will commend you, because some of the things you say are so clearly wrong, yet you post them so convincingly, I can't tell if you actually believe yourself. And that's the sign of a good troll.

But here, for the sake of old times, I will actually feed you, you poor wandering soul.

His gb range and tracking as a whole is very different compared to most heroes. If you don't understand this, then don't comment on it, you don't know enough about the situation to offer anything contructive.

You say you are unsure why you would want to throw anyone anywhere as Orochi. Great! Don't comment about it then, because you aren't sure what you're talking about - if you don't get it, then on what grounds are you contesting it? For instance, a wall, for a guaranteed heavy on top of postioning pressure, a ledge kill, throwing them into hazards or other teammates, your own traps or teammates traps, the possibilities are endless. Really obvious reasons. If you can't perceive really obvious applications that apply to the fundamentals of the game, then I can't help you be "sure".

Storm rush is only undodgeable when you do it in top stance. Yes, this one attack will be decent at landing a heavy. That does not negate the point of needing more methods than 1. Keep in mind the old 50/50 grab after storm rush was when you landed the old one, so landing storm rush isn't actually the point of contention, having more situations than 1 gimmick to execute is. The various situations in where heavies are disappearing rapidly was listed in the post, so there should be no confusion for you. So no, it is NOT a decent substitute for riptide being a light now, as before I could use riptide and storm rush both to execute, now I can only use one. The point is that it is a net loss. You're being disingenuous by saying new storm rush counts as both old storm rush as well as replacing ripride. No. It just replaces old storm rush. That is why it is being reworked.

You mentioned easier bait for parries. And? That doesn't guarantee heavies, so it has nothing to do with my point. Parrying as Orochi is not an issue here. If you're going to talk about my point, talk about my point. Don't change the goalpost. If you don't want to talk about my points, why are you in this topic?

Ah, to address your last stinky bait, the false equivalence of eagle talon to hurricane blast. Well, hurricane blast is much harder to pull off than eagle talon. Secondly, eagle talon takes place on the ground, when the opponent is on their back. Hurricane blast kills people standing up, the same as raiders zone and other heavies, meaning there is no break in the coding for it giving you an execution prompt, nor does anything special need to be added to make it an execution. All that needs to happen is letting that attack offer the prompt. So, the situation is both totally different in terms of risk versus rewars as well as an entirely different context as to why it should be appropriate and fits other game design decisions on why it would be a valid opportunity to add an execute. The fact you would offer such a poor argument implies to me that you just want to argue, Raime. Which really, you can do that anywhere. Put some effort into it and be constructive if you want to add to the conversation. At this point, you're just having a bad attitude and attempting to derail. Go make your own topic about that if that's how you're going to act.

I really should just ignore this considering how ****ty you were with me in this response. But i'm going to just ignore your constant barrage of throwing insults at me and give a response "worthy" of your time.

Explain how his tracking and GB range is different please. Telling me "it just is" and following it with a "gtfo" isn't productive to an argument. The only 2 gb's i'm aware of that behave differently is wardens and valks. Wardens getting a stumble if his gb whiff puts him OOS and valks if she whiffs at all stumbles. I've not read anywhere else including in the competitive sub that GB range is different on heros. But i'm willing to be wrong if you can actually provide information other than your own experiences. I do know that GB's whiff a lot. and that's usually due to terrain being even slightly uneven or if you are inputting any movement what so ever while attempting to GB. This happens more often than not on some heros. And if you were trying to imply that this is why his is different i'd have to disagree. Which isn't me saying it shouldn't be fixed. So please. Explain to my ignorant arse how his gb range and tracking is different.

I'm not contesting it. Just because I didn't flat out say I agreed with you doesn't mean i'm against it. Your hostility isn't warrented. I said as such because throwing people doesn't really aid orochi's kit in a particular fashion. Compared to someone like shaman. I don't play outside of duels. Haven't since season 3. It would have been easier for me to grasp immediately on why you wanted his throw distance buffed if you had told me other than just saying "is bad." Because something not being optimal doesn't mean it needs addressing. The one niche use I could see to buffing it would be so wall throwing into riptide was more reliable as right now the range is very finicky on doing so. So again. Not saying i'm against it being buffed. I just didn't see an immediate reason of it being an issue.

My bad for poor wording there. When I said "not reactable on dodge/stance" I was referring to the fact that you can't react according to new storm rush based on has back dash alone because riptide covers it. I'll agree to disagree here. Yes. You lost an option. You don't think having a better storm rush makes up for the loss. I think it does some what. And the benefits of what new riptide brings in my opinion out weighs the execute loss. But again. I'm a duelist. So my view is some what skewed. Baiting a parry attempt means you get to GB them in their start up frames. Which nets you a heavy. That's what I was getting at. But you sound so tunnel visioned by my response that feint into GB as a method of getting heavies probably flew over your head.

Harder? Nah. Eagles talons is only obtainable via a fully charged jab. Which is only ever guaranteed from a pin. and it's stupidly hard to get a pin. And you can be knocked out of any of those steps in a team fight. Deflect is a one and done thing from neutral. It's not harder to deflect than it is to get eagles talons. Both eagles and hurricane bast have a bit extra of an animation when you make a kill with it. Which is why I compared them. The hero might be standing up but orochi isn't facing the hero. Unlike raiders zone where he is. So this could conflict with making it an execution. But i'm not a coding expert and I doubt you are. I'm not against it being changed so it could. I just don't think it can.

"At this point, you're just having a bad attitude.." pot calling the kettle black here. If you're going to respond in a similar demeaning and down talking fashion don't expect a reply. Work on your attitude. Even if I was a troll it doesn't warrent this level of aggression and behavior.