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Roseguard_Cpt
05-09-2018, 04:14 PM
On and off I've seen debates about crushing counters and deflecting and how they interact with certain moves. Some moves are given priority over others like how you cannot deflect or crushing counter an unblockable move at the moment, but how Zerk Deflect GB takes priority over any followup moves.
I'm a bit curious about a general idea of what people think about these sorts of "Priority Moves". Personally I'd like to be able to Counter Crush the Kensei top heavy UB as Highlander (or Warden) but would that break the game like how in the past we couldn't throw heavies at Conquerors due to GB on Block? Deflect and CC are supposed to be core mechanics to certain characters, but where do we feel the "Priority Move" line should lay?

Because I'm bad at explaining things the first time;
1. Should Unblockables be able to be Crushing Countered?
2. Should Unblockables be able to be Deflected?

Just curious what you all think,
RGC

Xinlyfenne
05-09-2018, 04:43 PM
1. No.
2. No.

Both are special block moves. Therefore they cannot defend against unblockables.

Superior blocks block the attack, interrupting it. It allows you to do an action - be it automatic counter attack, GB, or counter move. It's still a block, just one that can interrupt heavies.

Deflects also count as blocks. They semi-block while evading, and attack during the enemy's recovery.

Berserker's deflect GB is not special either. Instead of an attack, you GB during their recovery. To demonstrate this point, it was shown previously that Berserker's GB could be interrupted if you deflected a multi-hit move like another Berserker's zone. However, they buffed deflect to deflect multiple hits in a row, so that won't happen anymore.

Vakris_One
05-09-2018, 04:55 PM
On and off I've seen debates about crushing counters and deflecting and how they interact with certain moves. Some moves are given priority over others like how you cannot deflect or crushing counter an unblockable move at the moment, but how Zerk Deflect GB takes priority over any followup moves.
I'm a bit curious about a general idea of what people think about these sorts of "Priority Moves". Personally I'd like to be able to Counter Crush the Kensei top heavy UB as Highlander (or Warden) but would that break the game like how in the past we couldn't throw heavies at Conquerors due to GB on Block? Deflect and CC are supposed to be core mechanics to certain characters, but where do we feel the "Priority Move" line should lay?

Because I'm bad at explaining things the first time;
1. Should Unblockables be able to be Crushing Countered?
2. Should Unblockables be able to be Deflected?

Just curious what you all think,
RGC
1. No
2. No

Unblockables already have a hard counter and that is parrying. If they can be countered in the exact same ways as normal attacks then it defeats the entire point of having unblockables in the game and the game loses some of its necessary complexity.

Alustar.
05-09-2018, 06:15 PM
Deflect isn't a block, dodge is to block where as deflect is to parry.

PepsiBeastin
05-09-2018, 06:22 PM
1. No
2. No

Unblockables already have a hard counter and that is parrying. If they can be countered in the exact same ways as normal attacks then it defeats the entire point of having unblockables in the game and the game loses some of its necessary complexity.

"countered in the exact same ways as normal attacks" excuse me I'm pretty sure you can't block unblockables. Also, deflects aren't blocks, they're different from what characters like valk get on dodge since no guard is actually up. If anything deflect should be a more viable defense against unblockables since it makes more sense to redirect such a large force (deflect) rather than overpower it (parry).

E1seNw0Lf
05-09-2018, 07:08 PM
1. No.
2. Yes. (talking about unblockable weapon attacks; not stuff like a punsh or kick)



Deflects also count as blocks. They semi-block while evading, and attack during the enemy's recovery.

Deflect has no stagger effect like a block. It has it's own property set. > So NO, it does not (should not) count as a block.

* It also would only be beneficial to assassins, keeping in mind that they have a disadvantage on block (via reflex guard).
* Plus, deflects are more risky than parries + unblockables doing a ton of dmg and are feintable most of the time and therefore make it possible to catch someone on dodge too.

There is not really a reason why unblockables should not be deflectable.

Xinlyfenne
05-09-2018, 07:09 PM
Deflect isn't a block, dodge is to block where as deflect is to parry.

If that were the case, you would be able to deflect unblockables, which is untrue.

The deflect is a special evasive block. Instead of interrupting the attack while dodging, you dodge the attack, while also blocking to redirect the attack. This is shown when someone has punch through and you deflect. You'll still take the block damage. So deflect counts as a block.



Deflect has no stagger effect like a block. It has it's own property set. > So NO, it does not count as a block.

It is a special block, just as superior block. Superior blocks interrupt heavies and lights. Normal block interrupt lights. Deflects do not interrupt, instead block-evading. So yes, it counts as a block. Read above as well.

Also, you can't edit your statement when I have already quoted it here. The passive aggressive 'So NO' part doesn't make any sense now. Either is doesn't count as a block or it shouldn't. It can't be both.


-/-

HazelrahFirefly
05-09-2018, 07:47 PM
Deflect isn't a block, dodge is to block where as deflect is to parry.

Precisely.

To not want deflect to override unblockables is ridiculous. It's already an incredibly risky move against even the weakest attack. To force it so you can't deflect it, as it is now, limits the variance between heroes.

I'd wager that most who say no to deflecting unblockables dont play assassins and have a grudge against them :p

HazelrahFirefly
05-09-2018, 07:50 PM
If that were the case, you would be able to deflect unblockables, which is untrue.

The deflect is a special evasive block. Instead of interrupting the attack while dodging, you dodge the attack, while also blocking to redirect the attack. This is shown when someone has punch through and you deflect. You'll still take the block damage. So deflect counts as a block.



It is a special block, just as superior block. Superior blocks interrupt heavies and lights. Normal block interrupt lights. Deflects do not interrupt, instead block-evading. So yes, it counts as a block. Read above as well.

Also, you can't edit your statement when I have already quoted it here. The passive aggressive 'So NO' part doesn't make any sense now. Either is doesn't count as a block or it shouldn't. It can't be both.

Your logic is unfortunately based on one poorly implemented thing: deflects behave the way they do against unblockables because they were programmed that way by a team that ****s the bed when it comes to balance. If they had been able to deflect unblockables before you would be saying the opposite thing.

Xinlyfenne
05-09-2018, 07:53 PM
Your logic is unfortunately based on one poorly implemented thing: deflects behave the way they do against unblockables because they were programmed that way by a team that ****s the bed when it comes to balance. If they had been able to deflect unblockables before you would be saying the opposite thing.

Your argument has no merit. I am not saying whether or not deflects should objectively be blocks or not. I am saying that they are classified as such by the For Honor team.

It the other were true, I would be saying as so.

I recommend you touch up on your reading comprehension afore quoting others.


-/-

HazelrahFirefly
05-09-2018, 09:35 PM
Your argument has no merit. I am not saying whether or not deflects should objectively be blocks or not. I am saying that they are classified as such by the For Honor team.

It the other were true, I would be saying as so.

I recommend you touch up on your reading comprehension afore quoting others.


-/-

Haha, easy tiger. I didn't mean to offend you.

My point isn't how its classified. That's an irrelevant argument. My point is that deflects work the way they do because they happened to be programmed that way. They can easily be changed to be "classified" as something else if the team were better at balancing.

Xinlyfenne
05-09-2018, 09:51 PM
Haha, easy tiger. I didn't mean to offend you.

My point isn't how its classified. That's an irrelevant argument. My point is that deflects work the way they do because they happened to be programmed that way. They can easily be changed to be "classified" as something else if the team were better at balancing.

And my point was to defend my initial post where I state the fact that deflects are a special block. The other comments I'm refuting state that deflects aren't a type of block, not they shouldn't be a block.

Your arguments/posts make no sense when talking about my post. As so I may question why you quote me when we are talking about two separate things.

UbiJurassic
05-09-2018, 10:25 PM
On and off I've seen debates about crushing counters and deflecting and how they interact with certain moves. Some moves are given priority over others like how you cannot deflect or crushing counter an unblockable move at the moment, but how Zerk Deflect GB takes priority over any followup moves.
I'm a bit curious about a general idea of what people think about these sorts of "Priority Moves". Personally I'd like to be able to Counter Crush the Kensei top heavy UB as Highlander (or Warden) but would that break the game like how in the past we couldn't throw heavies at Conquerors due to GB on Block? Deflect and CC are supposed to be core mechanics to certain characters, but where do we feel the "Priority Move" line should lay?

Because I'm bad at explaining things the first time;
1. Should Unblockables be able to be Crushing Countered?
2. Should Unblockables be able to be Deflected?

Just curious what you all think,
RGC

This is definitely a interesting discussion topic and the answers people have been giving are equally as interesting to read. The concept of move priority certainly isn't something new, as other fighting games have it as well. However, some of the interactions in For Honor are a bit unqiue, so it's cool to see everyone's input on the matter. :)

Vakris_One
05-09-2018, 10:49 PM
"countered in the exact same ways as normal attacks" excuse me I'm pretty sure you can't block unblockables.
True, an oversight on my part. Still, if unblockables are to be countered by everything except for blocking them then what is the added benefit or danger of unblockables?

You can dodge them, you can dodge strike them, you can parry them, you can deflect them, you can crushing counter them, you can trade through them with hyper armour. But you just can't block them. The OP's suggestion would make avoiding unblockables far too easy and simplistic in my opinion, dumbing down the fight mechanics and for no real reason that I can see. What is the problem with parry or dodge as an answer to the unblockable?



Also, deflects aren't blocks, they're different from what characters like valk get on dodge since no guard is actually up. If anything deflect should be a more viable defense against unblockables since it makes more sense to redirect such a large force (deflect) rather than overpower it (parry).
Then we should give every character a deflect?

Vakris_One
05-09-2018, 10:57 PM
Precisely.

To not want deflect to override unblockables is ridiculous. It's already an incredibly risky move against even the weakest attack. To force it so you can't deflect it, as it is now, limits the variance between heroes.

I'd wager that most who say no to deflecting unblockables dont play assassins and have a grudge against them :p
I wouldn't really mind unblockables being able to be deflected other than perhaps keeping an eye on how balanced it will be to give only assassins a third option on unblockables and not everyone else. Crushing counter I would never agree for it to be allowed to counter an unblockable as it just doesn't make sense to answer an enemy's most powerful strike with brute force of your own and somehow by means of magic come out the winner. Not unless we get some kind of clash mechanic like from Jedi Outcast at any rate..

HazelrahFirefly
05-09-2018, 11:17 PM
I wouldn't really mind unblockables being able to be deflected other than perhaps keeping an eye on how balanced it will be to give only assassins a third option on unblockables and not everyone else. Crushing counter I would never agree for it to be allowed to counter an unblockable as it just doesn't make sense to answer an enemy's most powerful strike with brute force of your own and somehow by means of magic come out the winner. Not unless we get some kind of clash mechanic like from Jedi Outcast at any rate..

Well sure it would have to be monitored and kept in balance like everything else. Not just assassins though btw, other heroes have deflects that should also work.

I also definitely agree about the CC not functioning against unblockabales.


And my point was to defend my initial post where I state the fact that deflects are a special block. The other comments I'm refuting state that deflects aren't a type of block, not they shouldn't be a block.

Your arguments/posts make no sense when talking about my post. As so I may question why you quote me when we are talking about two separate things.

Since you are so hung up on it, forget about the quoting.

Since you don't seem to understand my point I'll be blunt: who cares how its classified before now, or who's right amongst you guys. It should be changed, improved, made better by deflects working against unblockables.

Xinlyfenne
05-09-2018, 11:30 PM
Well sure it would have to be monitored and kept in balance like everything else. Not just assassins though btw, other heroes have deflects that should also work.

Since you are so hung up on it, forget about the quoting.

Since you don't seem to understand my point I'll be blunt: who cares how its classified before now, or who's right amongst you guys. It should be changed, improved, made better by deflects working against unblockables.

You simply don't understand what I've said this whole time. Let's make this simple.

1. I say deflect is a block, explaining that it has some block properties and as such does not react to unblockables.

2. Some people say it isn't a block.

3. I explain why it is classified as a block.

4. You jump in and say why it should be a block. This is a strawman; as I am talking about why it is a block, not why it should be a block.

5. I explain to you your reading comprehension problems.

6. You keep talking about why it should be a block, which is not what I'm talking about. As such, it makes no sense whatsoever.

7. I repeat myself since you're now too deep to retreat; and you keep going with your point. Your point would be valid, except for the fact that you're replying to me instead of replying normally to the thread, making the context invalid.

8. You once again ignore what I say, and repeat your out of context point. I clearly understand your point that "it should be a block". It has no relevance to my comments. That's what I keep telling you. If you want to say that, go ahead without quoting me; because if you do, that means you are replying directly to my comment and what I have to say. I don't care if you think it should work against unblockables or not. I'm not part of that conversation. You misrepresented my post and now you're here. Instead of admitting you read it wrong, you're now changing the topic to the aforementioned to detract from your mistake. And yes, I do care deeply about "quotes" and the like since I have OCD. It's nearly impossible to ignore anything that mentions me unless the situation is solved to my satisfaction.

Alustar.
05-09-2018, 11:47 PM
If that were the case, you would be able to deflect unblockables, which is untrue.

The deflect is a special evasive block. Instead of interrupting the attack while dodging, you dodge the attack, while also blocking to redirect the attack. This is shown when someone has punch through and you deflect. You'll still take the block damage. So deflect counts as a block.



It is a special block, just as superior block. Superior blocks interrupt heavies and lights. Normal block interrupt lights. Deflects do not interrupt, instead block-evading. So yes, it counts as a block. Read above as well.

Also, you can't edit your statement when I have already quoted it here. The passive aggressive 'So NO' part doesn't make any sense now. Either is doesn't count as a block or it shouldn't. It can't be both.


-/-

I never said you could deflect an unlockable, all I said was deflect as a function more closely resembles parry, in that it takes precise timing to execute. It doesn't have any of the same properties as a block because a block is just that. It halts an attack, while mitigating most of the damage, where as a parry out right negates all damage and sets you up for a counter. The very same way a deflect , upon proper execution, negates all damage and sets you up for a counter. Saying deflect is similar to block is simply mechanically wrong.
The argument of wether a deflect should negate unblockables is a different story. I don't really feel it should, as unblockables attacks are massive hits that deal large amounts of damage. As a person who plays an assassin, that breaks the design of the class. A light, mobile class should not be attempting to deflect a strike like that. You are supposed to either simply dodge or attempt a parry.

Xinlyfenne
05-09-2018, 11:53 PM
I never said you could deflect an unlockable, all I said was deflect as a function more closely resembles parry, in that it takes precise timing to execute. It doesn't have any of the same properties as a block because a block is just that. It takes an attack, while mitigating most of the damage, where as a parry or right negates all damage and sets you up for a counter. The very same way a deflect , upon proper execution, negates all damage and sets you up for a counter. Saying deflect is similar to block is simply mechanically wrong.
Thee argument of wether a deflect should negate unblockables is a different story. I don't really feel it would, as unblockables attacks are massive hits that deal large amounts of damage. As a person who plays an assassin, that breaks the design of the class. A light, mobile class should not be attempting to deflect a strike like that. You are supposed to either simply dodge or attempt a parry.

You didn't read what I wrote previously.

What you say is simply incorrect.

It does not resemble a parry the most. It resembles a superior block the most. It allows you to counter attack with a block type move. Kensei's, which requires a dodge and has a duration it is active, is the closest to a deflect.

For the part you forgot to read - if you deflect while the opponent has punch through, you take block damage. You also cannot deflect an unblockable. These alone prove it closely resembles a block-type move, not a parry.


-/-

Alustar.
05-09-2018, 11:58 PM
You didn't read what I wrote previously.

What you say is simply incorrect.

It does not resemble a parry the most. It resembles a superior block the most. It allows you to counter attack with a block type move. Superior blocks, like Kensei's, is the closest to a deflect.

For the part you forgot to read - if you deflect while the opponent has punch through, you take block damage. You also cannot deflect an unblockable. These alone prove it closely resembles a block-type move, not a parry.

It's not a block type move, blocking is static. Deflect is evasive. Whatever effects used by external forces doesn't matter, what matters is the maneuver in question. Superior block is a property held by certain characters to augment their ability to block. Deflect is an entirely different mechanic with a different set of rules.

Xinlyfenne
05-10-2018, 12:04 AM
It's not a block type move, blocking is static. Deflect is evasive. Whatever effects used by external forces didn't matter, what matters is the manager in question. Superior block is a property held by certain characters to augment their ability to block. Deflect is an entirely different mechanic with a different set of rules.

Your point has already been nullified.

It still is far more like a block than a parry. Deflect is different in that it evades attacks rather than stops it. That is the only difference. It holds characteristics of blocks in every aspect other than the interrupt part. That's why I say it's a block. Obviously, a deflect and block are two separate things. Now, instead of using semantics, objectively explain why it's more of a parry than a block.

To further prove my point, Conq and Kensei's superior blocks are also evasive. I have already explained this, yet it somehow evades your mind.

Alustar.
05-10-2018, 12:08 AM
Your point has already been nullified.

It still is far more like a block than a parry. Deflect is different in that it evades attacks rather than stops it. That is the only difference. It holds characteristics of blocks in every aspect other than the interrupt part. That's why I say it's a block. Obviously a deflect and block are two separate things. Now instead of using semantics, objectively explain why it's more of a parry than a block.

Lol, I love how you proclaim: "your point has been nullified" like you are some leading authority on the matter, then ask me to explain a point I already did. If you missed it, go back and re-read through my posts, your a big boy I'm sure you can find it. ;)
Also that is exactly what this is, an argument of semantics. Which, kudos to you for even being able to use that word properly in a sentence. Now maybe use that definition to help you see where your error is.

Xinlyfenne
05-10-2018, 12:12 AM
then ask me to explain a point I already did. If you missed it, go back and re-read through my posts, your a big boy I'm sure you can find it. ;)
Also that is exactly what this is, an argument of semantics. Which, kudos to you for even being able to use that word properly in a sentence. Now maybe use that definition to help you see where your error is.

You have reading comprehension problems as well. I asked you to explain - sarcastically, knowing already you have nothing else to provide. I have already disproved your previous posts.

The fact that you could not get that is simply remarkable.

You show your true colours. You now ignore my points, since you've already lost. You're now saying false statements about me. Like I don't know what semantics are?

I have no errors. I back up everything I say. You? Since you're wrong, you're just arguing for the sake of. Pathetic.

P.S. It's you're, not your. I'm not natively english and even I know that, "big boy".



"Lol, I love how you proclaim: "your point has been nullified" like you are some leading authority on the matter,"

I am rep. 342 and I am the creator of the execution, feat, renown, steel, special hero moves, ...etc. pages. I'm confident I have more knowledge in this game than other players; including you.


-///-

Alustar.
05-10-2018, 12:43 AM
You have reading comprehension problems as well. I asked you to explain - sarcastically, knowing already you have nothing else to provide. I have already disproved your previous posts.

The fact that you could not get that is simply remarkable.

You show your true colours. You now ignore my points, since you've already lost. You're now saying false statements about me. Like I don't know what semantics are?

I have no errors. I back up everything I say. You? Since you're wrong, you're just arguing for the sake of. Pathetic.

P.S. It's you're, not your. I'm not natively english and even I know that, "big boy".




I am rep. 342 and I am the creator of the execution, feat, renown & steel, special hero moves etc. pages. I'm confident I have more knowledge in this game than other players; including you.


-//-

Uhh, No. no developer/moderator would join in the discussion here. nor would they talk to the player base like you have. I'm calling b.s.

You are nothing more than a troll that wants the last word. So go on, have it. It's not going to make you look any better than you already don't.

Also, just a protip, if you are going to attempt to have any logical, intellectual debate with a person online, picking at their grammar is a sign that your own arguments have no merit. Notice I never did that to you, mostly because I knew from your syntax that English isn't your main language.
Kthxbai!

Xinlyfenne
05-10-2018, 12:53 AM
Uhh, No. no developer/moderator would join in the discussion here. nor would they talk to the player base like you have. I'm calling b.s.

You are nothing more than a troll that wants the last word. So go on, have it. It's not going to make you look any better than you already don't.

Also, just a protip, if you are going to attempt to have any logical, intellectual debate with a person online, picking at their grammar is a sign that your own arguments have no merit. Notice I never did that to you, mostly because I knew from your syntax that English isn't your main language.
Kthxbai!

Not once have I claimed to be a dev or moderator. If you're referring to the info pages, it's on Reddit. Check the sidebar. You like strawmans, don't you?

https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/7cj857/execution_information/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/7h7ahs/feat_information/
https://www.reddit.com/r/gadengo/comments/7chgi1/for_honor_execution_information/
https://www.reddit.com/r/gadengo/comments/7d4xsx/for_honor_steel_exp_information/
https://www.reddit.com/r/gadengo/comments/7ekwi9/for_honor_renown_score_information/
https://www.reddit.com/r/gadengo/comments/7hc6ip/for_honor_additional_information/
https://www.reddit.com/r/gadengo/comments/7frbsh/for_honor_ai_information/
https://www.reddit.com/r/gadengo/comments/7ia1yx/credits/


It's funny - you have described yourself - a troll that wants the last word. You are nothing more than someone who argues a baseless point, gets it wrong then proceeds to call me a troll. You have nothing of merit to say, so you resort to that comment. Absurd.

And picking at their grammar - this is too funny. YOU were the one who said you couldn't believe I used "semantics" properly. That's precisely why I picked at your grammar. Clearly, by your own logic, your arguments have no merit. Not that they had any to begin with. I already have proven so.

That's also one of your tactics. You cannot refute my arguments so you result to hypocritical quotes to avoid the topic at hand.

I don't care how I appear to others. That's what not caring about what others think does to you. You can do what you want and say your mind. You think I look bad? But you, with your failed points, attacks and hypocrisy; your reputation is ruined. You care about it, so much so.

If you wanted a logical debate, you'd lose like you did now. You are a hypocrite; you don't understand sarcasm; you keep arguing after you've lost.

I don't see a point to this for a rational person - of course, you're not rational: you're a troll looking to argue and rile up the crowd. If you weren't so, you'd agree with the facts or put more on the table; instead, you're flaming. Now look up the definition of troll, troll.


-//-

Draco067
05-10-2018, 01:19 AM
To get this thread back on topic.

1. No, I don't think that crushing counter should work against unblockables attacks. Crushing counter is for starters easier to do (parry mechanics using a light attack I believe. I dont normally play characters that have it) and not as easy to punish as deflect potentially is. As far as its realistic use (because I mention it down below) I'm honestly not sure what it is that's happening.

2. Yes, I would like deflect to work against unblockables attacks. As a primarily assassin player I feel assassins should have access to this. Someone mentioned earlier that as the most agile class why should assassins be able to deflect against such a heavy hitting attack? I think they should for that exact reason: deflecting in reality isn't just a block or a parry, it's a redirection in simple terms, something that requires finesse and that an assassin is capable of. This crazy heavy, and sometimes uncancleable attack is just the thing a deflect is intended for.

HazelrahFirefly
05-10-2018, 02:29 AM
I am impressed by your insistence on not having a conversation. I also enjoy how you must sling out insults to communicate. I'm not mad mind you, your opinion means less than nothing.

I just want to know - why did you even post in a thread, just to tell everyone their wrong?


Your point has already been nullified.

It still is far more like a block than a parry. Deflect is different in that it evades attacks rather than stops it. That is the only difference. It holds characteristics of blocks in every aspect other than the interrupt part. That's why I say it's a block. Obviously, a deflect and block are two separate things. Now, instead of using semantics, objectively explain why it's more of a parry than a block.

To further prove my point, Conq and Kensei's superior blocks are also evasive. I have already explained this, yet it somehow evades your mind.

I quoted the wrong segment on purpose here.

My original quoting has perfect relevance to your point btw, you are just incapable of seeing it. Good luck with the study project.

Xinlyfenne
05-10-2018, 03:07 AM
I am impressed by your insistence on not having a conversation. I also enjoy how you must sling out insults to communicate. I'm not mad mind you, your opinion means less than nothing.

I just want to know - why did you even post in a thread, just to tell everyone their wrong?

I quoted the wrong segment on purpose here.

My original quoting has perfect relevance to your point btw, you are just incapable of seeing it. Good luck with the study project.


Well I'm glad you could finally come back to troll, after your buddy tried to do the dirty work. I also enjoy your passive aggressive insults; but they come out of a simple mind, so I take it with a grain of salt.

If you could read, mind you, you would see I posted afore the others and was defending my statement. It was never about me just telling them they're wrong - and even so, I would gladly correct them.

Your quoting still has no relevance. Re-read my response. You didn't counter anything; because you simply can't defend your position, troll. You're here to stir up flames and get me to argue longer. I've defended my position every time with evidence.

You two trolls have done nothing but use strawmans to divert the subject then attack me. Now you claim the victim?

Both of you are sad little people. You turn what would be a learning lesson in gameplay into a flame fest.

And oh, the hypocrisy - like your troll buddy. I'm not having a conversation? That's all I have been doing. I've tried explaining to you - but you willfully ignore. You're a bad pretender, and everyone can see through you.

Don't pretend anymore.


Your logic is unfortunately based on one poorly implemented thing: deflects behave the way they do against unblockables because they were programmed that way by a team that ****s the bed when it comes to balance. If they had been able to deflect unblockables before you would be saying the opposite thing.

I was talking about what deflects are - not what they should be. My logic is definitely based on what the devs intended, because that's exactly what I'm saying - the facts. Your post does not fit contextually to mines.

You can't hide behind lies forever.


Why are you trolling? Is it fun for you? Do you like arguing for no reason?

These are questions that will won't be answered; because the common internet troll needs no reason. While you keep contending for no reason now, for the sake of it, perhaps, I'll take my time elsewhere. I'll be compiling more data to help the community. I'll keep answering questions new players have. You can stay here in your little corner and keep trolling with your buddy. It won't bother me any longer; you'll be blocked, or the closest thing to it. You have nothing of worth to say, and you've proven as such. You came with the intention to harm and subjectively argue out of context, not to address the situation in a well manner. Your empty words mean nothing. You won't be missed.


-/-

Alustar.
05-10-2018, 07:36 AM
To get this thread back on topic.

1. No, I don't think that crushing counter should work against unblockables attacks. Crushing counter is for starters easier to do (parry mechanics using a light attack I believe. I dont normally play characters that have it) and not as easy to punish as deflect potentially is. As far as its realistic use (because I mention it down below) I'm honestly not sure what it is that's happening.

2. Yes, I would like deflect to work against unblockables attacks. As a primarily assassin player I feel assassins should have access to this. Someone mentioned earlier that as the most agile class why should assassins be able to deflect against such a heavy hitting attack? I think they should for that exact reason: deflecting in reality isn't just a block or a parry, it's a redirection in simple terms, something that requires finesse and that an assassin is capable of. This crazy heavy, and sometimes uncancleable attack is just the thing a deflect is intended for.

I don't know of many unblockables that aren't cancelable, and as Vakris had pointed out, if deflects could subvert an unlockable it could lead to an imbalance in gameplay, making them more useless. The reason being is the deflect timing is more strict than parry timing, in that you have to wait for that attack to already be thrown and almost hit, then dodge into it. This would make unblockables far less effective against only assassins, and intensify most players already wild hatred for the class as a whole.

Opinions on the nature of the maneuver aside, I really don't feel it would be a healthy change.

HazelrahFirefly
05-10-2018, 09:52 AM
I think you're offended because you misread my very first post. Please calm down with all the insults and aggressive language.

Seriously, SERIOUSLY, everyone in this thread is just trying to have a conversation about moves countering unblockables. Your response is, "NOOOO!!," instead of even attempting to see their point of view.

ChampionRuby50g
05-10-2018, 10:43 AM
“It still is far more like a block than a parry. Deflect is different in that it evades attacks rather than stops it. That is the only difference. It holds characteristics of blocks in every aspect other than the interrupt part. That's why I say it's a block.”

You are wrong on this though. Deflecting will leave you in a position to score some damage on an opponent that will happen more times than not, barring outside factors such in a 4v4. Static block doesn’t lead to damage like that. Parrying also leads to damage, so we can see that it holds aspects of both parrying and blocking.

Xinlyfenne
05-10-2018, 11:01 AM
“It still is far more like a block than a parry. Deflect is different in that it evades attacks rather than stops it. That is the only difference. It holds characteristics of blocks in every aspect other than the interrupt part. That's why I say it's a block.”

You are wrong on this though. Deflecting will leave you in a position to score some damage on an opponent that will happen more times than not, barring outside factors such in a 4v4. Static block doesn’t lead to damage like that. Parrying also leads to damage, so we can see that it holds aspects of both parrying and blocking.




It does not resemble a parry the most. It resembles a superior block the most. It allows you to counter attack with a [move considered a block]. Kensei's, which requires a dodge and has a duration it is active, is the closest to a deflect.

...if you deflect while the opponent has punch through, you take block damage. ...[This] alone prove it [more closely] resembles a block-[like] move, not a parry.




-//-

Roseguard_Cpt
05-10-2018, 01:54 PM
I can see the reasoning behind both sides. Deflect and CC are both alternatives to parrying. As the general consensus on CC is a No I'll talk about deflects a bit more. I played every character to at least Rep 1, to try and understand them better, and Deflecting isn't a parry, but it's not a block either, it is its own unique mechanic where you simply avoid getting hit and shift the momentum in your favor. I could see UB being able to be deflected because many Unblockables can be used much as they are already, Bait/Pressure. For example, Centurion has his UB soft feint into GB which could catch an Assassin mid dodge who was trying to deflect. However it would possibly mess up other mixups such as Raider though who has an unblockable that always comes form the same side.

HazelrahFirefly
05-10-2018, 02:41 PM
I can see the reasoning behind both sides. Deflect and CC are both alternatives to parrying. As the general consensus on CC is a No I'll talk about deflects a bit more. I played every character to at least Rep 1, to try and understand them better, and Deflecting isn't a parry, but it's not a block either, it is its own unique mechanic where you simply avoid getting hit and shift the momentum in your favor. I could see UB being able to be deflected because many Unblockables can be used much as they are already, Bait/Pressure. For example, Centurion has his UB soft feint into GB which could catch an Assassin mid dodge who was trying to deflect. However it would possibly mess up other mixups such as Raider though who has an unblockable that always comes form the same side.

Thank you, OP, for wanting to have a discussion. I appreciate it.

Another big reason I think UBs should be Deflectable is something that you just made me think of. In a way unblockables are the strongest moves in the game - they are what people think are required to open defenses up. So instead of giving assassins, and other deflecting heroes, unblockable attacks, they can counter the UB in their own fashion.

I dunno. I understand the side of not wanting UBs to be deflected, but I definitely think it would help in making the characters feel unique.

Vakris_One
05-10-2018, 03:42 PM
I can see the reasoning behind both sides. Deflect and CC are both alternatives to parrying. As the general consensus on CC is a No I'll talk about deflects a bit more. I played every character to at least Rep 1, to try and understand them better, and Deflecting isn't a parry, but it's not a block either, it is its own unique mechanic where you simply avoid getting hit and shift the momentum in your favor. I could see UB being able to be deflected because many Unblockables can be used much as they are already, Bait/Pressure. For example, Centurion has his UB soft feint into GB which could catch an Assassin mid dodge who was trying to deflect. However it would possibly mess up other mixups such as Raider though who has an unblockable that always comes form the same side.


Thank you, OP, for wanting to have a discussion. I appreciate it.

Another big reason I think UBs should be Deflectable is something that you just made me think of. In a way unblockables are the strongest moves in the game - they are what people think are required to open defenses up. So instead of giving assassins, and other deflecting heroes, unblockable attacks, they can counter the UB in their own fashion.

I dunno. I understand the side of not wanting UBs to be deflected, but I definitely think it would help in making the characters feel unique.
I can see the logic of wanting deflect to work on unblockables and it would fit in quite naturally. But my concern is still the balance factor of giving deflect characters (which does mean all the assassins) a third option on unblockables while leaving the other characters with just two options.

It is already a problem in my opinion that this game does not have a very clearly defined class mechanic between Heavy, Vanguard and Assassin. With assassins being the most fleshed out of the 3 'pure' classes in that they have aspects that are wholly unique to them such as deflect and guard stance decay. Vanguards, Heavies and Hybrids are a hodge podge of stuff just thrown randomly together with nothing specific and unique to either the Vanguard or the Heavy class. Shugo's passive hyper armour comes closest to being a unique Heavy-only trait but then no other Heavy has this so it is not a class trait. Vanguards borrow stuff from Assassins and have powerful hits like some Heavies so they're basically Hybrids in my opinion and always have been.

Taking this into account; that generally speaking Assassins are already the only truly fleshed out class with unique traits specific only to their class. Would giving them, and only them, a third unique option on unblockables be fair and/or balanced to the other characters? Keeping in mind that most deflects either do a ton of damage (way more than a light attack) like Orochi's heavy deflect or have special traits that help them to be much more devastating than a simple heavy parry punish such as Glad's skewer deflect, Zerker's guarranteed GB deflect, Shaman's bleed deflect which immediately enables her access to her bite lunge, to name a few.

For these reasons I feel it would make assassins way too strong than is reasonable or fair.

HazelrahFirefly
05-10-2018, 04:38 PM
^
You're entirely right about all that. No argument from me there, especially regarding the classes being fleshed out.

I was actually thinking (instead of working hurk) about the option that Assassins couldn't parry UBs. It fits but it also seems like a messy slope that could lead to even more unbalance lol.

Knight_Raime
05-10-2018, 06:44 PM
CC shouldn't work against unblockables.
Deflecting...Only if assassins lost the ability to parry naturally and deflect mechanically became parry but on a dodge. Personally i'd like this. But I think assassins would be better defined by being able to dash cancel out of their recoveries of finishers. and having more flexibility of attack timing on dash related moves.

Really though heavies need to be fleshed out more mechanically. Vanguards dunno. They seem to be starter heros conceptually. I don't know what we could give them that sets them apart or rather what reason to play them after you mastered base mechanics. imo hybrids are the best heros in the game conceptually. They have their own identity both visually and move list wise.

Draco067
05-10-2018, 07:46 PM
I can see deflect potentially becoming a balance issue if it worked against UB, but as I mentioned above it would be both good and bad. UB are already used to bait parrys that can award guaranteed damage in 1v1, in a 1vX team battle they can be slow and dont guarantee damage. From the perspective of an Orochi being able to dish out quick counter damage to incoming UB spam in a 1vX would be very welcome, but still very difficult. In a 1v1, trying bait out a deflect with an UB is equally as punishable as a parry; with a parry you can get the heavy parry for a light, a GB on startup for a heavy, or interrupt with your own light. If you bait a deflect attempt you can get a GB (on a dodge making it easier), if they turn it into a dodge attack then you can get light parry for a heavy. The assassin is still taking a lot of risk attempting a deflect against an UB.

Knight_Raime
05-10-2018, 07:56 PM
I can see deflect potentially becoming a balance issue if it worked against UB, but as I mentioned above it would be both good and bad. UB are already used to bait parrys that can award guaranteed damage in 1v1, in a 1vX team battle they can be slow and dont guarantee damage. From the perspective of an Orochi being able to dish out quick counter damage to incoming UB spam in a 1vX would be very welcome, but still very difficult. In a 1v1, trying bait out a deflect with an UB is equally as punishable as a parry; with a parry you can get the heavy parry for a light, a GB on startup for a heavy, or interrupt with your own light. If you bait a deflect attempt you can get a GB (on a dodge making it easier), if they turn it into a dodge attack then you can get light parry for a heavy. The assassin is still taking a lot of risk attempting a deflect against an UB.

Yeah but if you could counter an unblockable with both parry and deflect why would the assassin ever attempt to deflect it when parrying for them would be safer? That's why they'd have to remove parry on assassins if deflect could work against UB's.

Draco067
05-10-2018, 08:24 PM
Yeah but if you could counter an unblockable with both parry and deflect why would the assassin ever attempt to deflect it when parrying for them would be safer? That's why they'd have to remove parry on assassins if deflect could work against UB's.

In a non competitive match I love using deflects, but you are totally right in that parrys are safer.

We've discussed getting rid of parry for asassins in place of deflect, but deflect itself would need an additional buff to make up for parrys in a group fight, maybe not to the same extent, but parry plays too big of a part.

I suggested getting rid of assassins ability to get heavy punished on light parry in favor of a deflects higher damage.

A compromise such as that maybe?

(Edited)

Knight_Raime
05-10-2018, 08:45 PM
In a non competitive match I love using deflects, but you are totally right in that parrys are safer.

We've discussed getting rid of parry for asassins in place of deflect, but deflect itself would need an additional buff to make up for parrys in a group fight, maybe not to the same extent, but parry plays too big of a part.

I suggested getting rid of assassins ability to get heavy punished on light deflects in favor of a deflects higher damage.

A compromise such as that maybe?

In my suggestion deflect would be loosened so the timing wasn't as harsh and be on par with parries current window.
Unsure how you'd lessen the potential punish of a baited deflect.

Draco067
05-10-2018, 09:02 PM
In my suggestion deflect would be loosened so the timing wasn't as harsh and be on par with parries current window.
Unsure how you'd lessen the potential punish of a baited deflect.

To make sure I understand:

Remove parry on assassins.
Adjust deflect timing to be on par with parry.
Deflects would have their current punishes, and an advantage however slight over parrys due to their speed of counter damage.

Interesting, but if that were to change what determines the amount of damage done vs light/heavy attack being deflected? If it's set to certain attacks (Orochi's heavy or light deflect) that could potentially weaken his mix-up.

Alustar.
05-10-2018, 09:10 PM
In my suggestion deflect would be loosened so the timing wasn't as harsh and be on par with parries current window.
Unsure how you'd lessen the potential punish of a baited deflect.

You make CGB possible on dodge

Knight_Raime
05-10-2018, 09:20 PM
To make sure I understand:

Remove parry on assassins.
Adjust deflect timing to be on par with parry.
Deflects would have their current punishes, and an advantage however slight over parrys due to their speed of counter damage.

Interesting, but if that were to change what determines the amount of damage done vs light/heavy attack being deflected? If it's set to certain attacks (Orochi's heavy or light deflect) that could potentially weaken his mix-up.

Im confused on what your saying with that last part. But yes to the first part on my suggestions.


You make CGB possible on dodge

No. most current mix ups attempt to force a dodge or a parry. If you can just CGB out of a dodge that would make dodging the defacto escape and hurt the mix up viability.
And it would make dodge attacks unpunishable outside parrying. Which is also no.

Draco067
05-10-2018, 09:24 PM
You make CGB possible on dodge

I think that would make assassins way to powerful, there would be no way to punish them for dodging all the time.

This is difficult... You could make the dodge attack a heavy input with the same damage. So the punish is only a light.

Draco067
05-10-2018, 09:32 PM
Im confused on what your saying with that last part. But yes to the first part on my suggestions.

That wasn't explained clearly.

If someone were to throw a heavy attack, currently you could parry it and respond with the light punish. Someone throws a light attack, you parry and get a heavy punish. This is balanced risk vs reward.

So if assassins lose their parry for deflect, how do they balance the damage output of the deflect if someone throws a heavy and I respond with heavy damage. Gladiators skewer, or Orochi's light deflect (I don't remember the exact number) it may be lower than I thought it was.

Knight_Raime
05-10-2018, 09:37 PM
That wasn't explained clearly.

If someone were to throw a heavy attack, currently you could parry it and respond with the light punish. Someone throws a light attack, you parry and get a heavy punish. This is balanced risk vs reward.

So if assassins lose their parry for deflect, how do they balance the damage output of the deflect if someone throws a heavy and I respond with heavy damage. Gladiators skewer, or Orochi's light deflect (I don't remember the exact number) it may be lower than I thought it was.

Ah I get you. Unfortunately I don't have a response for that and it's a glaring issue with my idea of making deflect the assassins version of a parry.
It's part of why I backed away from that idea and decided it would be better if assassins (to flesh themselves out more) got better timing variance on their dodge attacks and also could dodge out of finishers.

Alustar.
05-10-2018, 10:04 PM
Im confused on what your saying with that last part. But yes to the first part on my suggestions.



No. most current mix ups attempt to force a dodge or a parry. If you can just CGB out of a dodge that would make dodging the defacto escape and hurt the mix up viability.
And it would make dodge attacks unpunishable outside parrying. Which is also no.

Can you CGB from an attempted parry?

Knight_Raime
05-10-2018, 10:20 PM
Can you CGB from an attempted parry?

If you're referring to falling for a feint bait into a GB no. if they GB you in your vulnerability window you can't.

Devils-_-legacy
05-10-2018, 10:31 PM
Then I'd prefer deflect the way it is

Draco067
05-10-2018, 11:10 PM
Ah I get you. Unfortunately I don't have a response for that and it's a glaring issue with my idea of making deflect the assassins version of a parry.
It's part of why I backed away from that idea and decided it would be better if assassins (to flesh themselves out more) got better timing variance on their dodge attacks and also could dodge out of finishers.

Ok. So what about incetivising the use of deflect?

For assassins, they get NO heavy punish on any parry, parry timing is narrower, but still available.
Deflect gets the timing you suggested, maybe a little narrower ( could help compensate for damage values). Deflect works on UBs. All deflects gain HA property good for one hit (as should be the case for any HA).

Knight_Raime
05-10-2018, 11:14 PM
Ok. So what about incetivising the use of deflect?

For assassins, they get NO heavy punish on any parry, parry timing is narrower, but still available.
Deflect gets the timing you suggested, maybe a little narrower ( could help compensate for damage values). Deflect works on UBs. All deflects gain HA property good for one hit (as should be the case for any HA).

I think making deflect not have that start up would be good enough. As at least in the circle of people I talk to the main reason people don't deflect is because it's timing as is makes it a bit situational.
I'm against HA at least thematically because assassins are not really the trading type (but then zerker exists so) the HA would be more for team fights. but you already multi deflect now so I don't think that's really needed.

Alustar.
05-10-2018, 11:23 PM
On, I wasn't sure if start up heavies prevented CGB, with that in mind inrk still not sure how I feel about deflect working on unblockables. Pay of me feels it should be doable, but with deflect as limited, as Raime said, it does need attention. I'd like to see Draco's suggestion. Making deflect more beneficial would be a step in the right direction, I think maybe on top of that, possibly reworking damage values to reflect the type of attack deflected could be interesting? Deflecting faster attacks yields more damage from the follow-up? Not sure how that would work for berserker orochi, or shinobi. Food for thought.

Knight_Raime
05-10-2018, 11:29 PM
On, I wasn't sure if start up heavies prevented CGB, with that in mind inrk still not sure how I feel about deflect working on unblockables. Pay of me feels it should be doable, but with deflect as limited, as Raime said, it does need attention. I'd like to see Draco's suggestion. Making deflect more beneficial would be a step in the right direction, I think maybe on top of that, possibly reworking damage values to reflect the type of attack deflected could be interesting? Deflecting faster attacks yields more damage from the follow-up? Not sure how that would work for berserker orochi, or shinobi. Food for thought.

Issue with that though is that deflecting lights is always the safer option. you pretty much never deflect a heavy because of the risk associated with it. and because dodges are naturally pretty punishable...well..That's probably why a deflect punish is always the same regardless of the attack.

Draco067
05-11-2018, 12:06 AM
I think making deflect not have that start up would be good enough. As at least in the circle of people I talk to the main reason people don't deflect is because it's timing as is makes it a bit situational.
I'm against HA at least thematically because assassins are not really the trading type (but then zerker exists so) the HA would be more for team fights. but you already multi deflect now so I don't think that's really needed.

I like this better. I heavily dislike HA as well, if all it did was block one hit I could understand that, but it doesn't.

So an instant light deflect that interrupts chains cause I'm tired of being punished for trying to punish someone else, but keep Orochi's heavy the same.

(Edit)
To be clear, would making the deflect instant be enough to make it worth using over a parry.

Devils-_-legacy
05-11-2018, 12:27 AM
No parry works as cc were a deflect is more of punish

Knight_Raime
05-11-2018, 12:43 AM
I like this better. I heavily dislike HA as well, if all it did was block one hit I could understand that, but it doesn't.

So an instant light deflect that interrupts chains cause I'm tired of being punished for trying to punish someone else, but keep Orochi's heavy the same.

(Edit)
To be clear, would making the deflect instant be enough to make it worth using over a parry.

I don't see anything wrong with making deflect attacks faster to deal with certain combos. Just not immediately sure about how that would effect the new multi deflect.

Draco067
05-11-2018, 01:20 AM
I don't see anything wrong with making deflect attacks faster to deal with certain combos. Just not immediately sure about how that would effect the new multi deflect.

The only thing I can think about it affecting multi deflect would be that the act of deflecting itself would interrupt such attacks. So the first hit in the zerkers zone would stop if it was deflected. So it would stop chains, but new attacks could be started up without a stagger if the deflect had no follow up attack.