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View Full Version : Could we have a few less small dominion maps?



CandleInTheDark
05-09-2018, 04:44 AM
Look, I get what you were trying to do at last week's stream and I appreciate all the work that goes into the maps, I especially love the fact that one of the campaign maps was the inspiration for the current one. There is a but coming. Bear in mind here I am normally one of the people saying see how something plays I am worried that what we are going to see is something like the Forge where it is a cool idea and all but as soon as people learn where the choke points are, it will be another where at any tier I have played in it becomes a matter of the first to get home, soldier lane and form up into a four in the soldier lane has an advantage that nine times out of ten does not get broken.

I get what you were saying in the demonstration, I have said the same in threads over the gank meta (god I hate that word, it doesn't mean what people think it means) but there are a few problems with the demonstration you gave. One, as soon as you say look we are doing this to show you this doesn't work, that becomes suspect. Two the team this was demonstrated against were likely in communication with each other and three, we are not all top tier. These are problems because even on PC, at least in my experience so far, people don't set their chat to team (this is not a thread asking you to change the default before anyone jumps on that bandwagon), people don't work together and while the advice you gave should work the vast majority I have seen do not follow it. Yes I could join a group but I work night shift, I sleep when most teams would be active (I also left my discord because I got fed up of my faction doing nothing but putting assets into a volcano). In terms of us not all being top tier, maybe on a good day I can hold three off for half a minute on average, that is a good day, a good deal of the time it is less. The thing is if I am on a smaller map, any good my team does tends to get wiped out when they meet the deathball, I don't think it is a coincidence that the maps roaming as a four most often gets punished so far as I can see are citadel gate and temple garden where it takes longer to get from c to a then say river fort and have less choke points than say the forge or sanctuary bridge.

Hey maybe I am wrong, at least it doesn't look like the map is also linear and maybe that will have more of an effect than the size. But in many of the smaller maps where there are few options past the spawn point it gets to the point that sometimes teams are lucky if they can leave their own spawn zone (forge attackers and gauntlet are terrible for this) and if it gets to that point there is no but wait for someone to group up with then. I am not asking for no small maps, I get some people like the pace, I am just asking for a few more the size of citadel gate and temple garden where if I hold up three people and my team actually manage to get the other zones, it doesn't take them ten seconds to stomp over to it and either take the zone unopposed or take down the person boosting it.

Mia.Nora
05-09-2018, 05:32 AM
My thoughts exactly. Showing a 4 man team sitting next to each other in Mic/Headset communication with each of them enough skill to hold down gankers for 20-30 secs; is by no means a solution offered to community. It is only a PR attempt to falsify the claims from community about how dire the reality of Dominion is.

You can't enforce Mic/Headset as a prerequisite for Dominion Queue which most people use for streaming their music (which is what happens half the time) or just trolling in voice chat anyway.

Your solution for a player can not be saying "You need to have teammates who are communicative, responsive, strategic and skilled enough. If you can have that then you wont have to worry about deathsquad." Sorry but this is not a valis response to the problem at hand.

And moreover I see that attempt of PR as damage control which leans towards the declaration of we have no intention of fixing it.


Just came out of another LoL game where we got ganked the hell out of us, and I had no frustration at all. Because at every attempt they did for gank we had the opportunity to punish the absence of ganker in the other part of map and they had to respond to our push or lose valuable objectives every time. We lost but it was not annoying since there was constantly a trade off. We did not need voice chat or even type chat. And a few pings was more than enough to communicate.

Here in FH there is no trade off, when you form a gank squad and start swiping the map you know it is a win from there.

PDXGorechild
05-09-2018, 08:58 AM
The thing is if I am on a smaller map, any good my team does tends to get wiped out when they meet the deathball, I don't think it is a coincidence that the maps roaming as a four most often gets punished so far as I can see are citadel gate and temple garden where it takes longer to get from c to a then say river fort and have less choke points than say the forge or sanctuary bridge.

I've noticed this. Temple garden almost always gets voted up when there's the option and I find dominion games tend to play out best on this map. Numerous ways to get to the same points, decent spacing, different levels and plenty of scenery to sneak around. If i'm rolling with randoms and my team starts getting themselves ganked by a deathball, i'll just sneak off and cap points on my own, which mostly works. Forge being the polar opposite of this as you said. Very linear, few places to hide and one or two major choke points that can shut one side of the map off. Ganker heaven.

I didn't really clock at the time of watching it that they were showing a "How not to lose to gankers" video. I did laugh when I realised. Showing players who are communicating in the studio countering it is one thing, expecting randoms who aren't on voice chat to replicate it in a varying range of scenarios is another. Bit of a ridiculous thing to do really.

Anyway I share the sentiment. We need bigger maps. I think the "Deathball meta" could be countered mostly by introducing bigger maps, fixing feats and maybe just increasing the bonus points a player generates by standing on points a bit.

CandleInTheDark
05-09-2018, 09:41 AM
I've noticed this. Temple garden almost always gets voted up when there's the option and I find dominion games tend to play out best on this map. Numerous ways to get to the same points, decent spacing, different levels and plenty of scenery to sneak around. If i'm rolling with randoms and my team starts getting themselves ganked by a deathball, i'll just sneak off and cap points on my own, which mostly works. Forge being the polar opposite of this as you said. Very linear, few places to hide and one or two major choke points that can shut one side of the map off. Ganker heaven.

I certainly think people have wised up to it and yeah often temple garden gets it above any other, the others I noticed are citadel gate, the sentinel, high fort and for some reason the shard which works well despite the fact that it really shouldn't as it shares a lot with certain other maps. On the flip side if I see four people voting for the forge, gauntlet or the overpass with the point you have to pass to get to the other often clogged up I leave right away.

It isn't the only problem, because people will just find a corner to do a rolling xvx in on some maps, but it alleviates it somewhat when one person can make a lasting difference.

PDXGorechild
05-09-2018, 02:06 PM
Citadel gate and Temple Garden always get my votes. The spacing just feels much better than the others. High fort is nice an spacious but too many ledge hazards for my liking. I know what you mean about the shard, and I think it's due to the positioning of the points, with the minion zone being at the extreme end of the map, meaning you have to actually go over there to capture it.

The problem that often arises is that one team can control one zone and usually control the minions at B as well. Taking Sentinel as an example, Defenders rush A, steamroll whoever shows up, and then sit two people on the crossbows whilst a lawbringer/raider combo guards inside the zone, running anyone who comes up into walls and off ledges. The lawb uses his explosive feats to kill the minions at B whilst standing on the ramparts of A if the attackers take it back. C is a mile from the other two points and only has one crossbow.. nobody wants it. Meanwhile the defenders continue their monopoly of A and rake in loads of points from ganks, crossbow kills and minion deaths via grenades. They don't even need C. As much as I love this map, it's really not fun to be on the losing side when your enemy employs this strategy.

HazelrahFirefly
05-09-2018, 02:53 PM
That anti-deathball video was perhaps the most insulting thing they've done yet.

As you guys have stated, it was a way of treating the playerbase as if they are idiots, presenting a false solution to a problem they didn't actually address, and suggested heavily that they have no intention to fix something the majority dislike.

Though, hell, it took them two seasons to admit and fix the reflex guard issue, so a thing like deathball could take a decade. Seriously, I barely believe this game is being treated properly. It's on life-support from Ubi corporate and unless it jumps in player numbers will be killed off this year.

Vakris_One
05-09-2018, 05:40 PM
I agree about the size of the new map. It will heavily favour the deathball approach which is a shame because they could have easily made it bigger considering the campaign beach head map was huge.

And yeah I said it before and will say it here as well, whipping out a pro player who plays Dom primarily in a voice chat team to explain to us random plebs how to git gud at Dominion was a complete nonsense and very out of touch with the issue. It felt like they were brushing the problem under the carpet and just going, "See guys, it's just a learn to play issue. Now leave us alone." It feels like next they're going to put Bio on to make jokes about a Dominion conspiracy theory.

The problem isn't that ganking exists in Dominion. The problem is that it is too easy to win simply by deathballing. There is no strategy, no higher tactics involved in a game mode that is supposed to be all about that. Dominion is basically Skirmish because deathballing is the most effective meta and that is a problem. Smaller maps completely skew the match in favour of deathballing because due to their size it takes very little time to just bulldoze through the map from A to C and just repeat that for the win.

Nothing much you can do except to deathball them back but then you might as well be playing Skirmish, no? Deathballing is far too effective for how easy it is to do. There are no drawbacks for doing it on the smaller maps and only advantages thereby forcing the other team to answer one deathball with another. It's not a hard thing to grasp if the developers can just step away from romancing the minority pro-MLG competitive team crowd for 2 seconds and actually try playing their own game in a team of randoms - like how the majority of their players experience Dom-Skirmish-inion.

EIGHTYYARDS NYC
05-09-2018, 05:49 PM
OP what do you play on?

CandleInTheDark
05-09-2018, 05:52 PM
OP what do you play on?

900 hours on xbox, just started PC (uplay says just short of 5 hours in pvp and 30 all together with the campaign and trials). In that near five hours I have had teams unable to take home in sanctuary bridge and spawn zone killed in gauntlet, so I would say it is the same issue across platforms.

Vakris_One
05-09-2018, 05:52 PM
OP what do you play on?
A purple flamingo attached to Falcor the luck dragon ;)

I could be wrong but I don't think there is a platform disparity when it comes to deathballing in Dominion.

HazelrahFirefly
05-09-2018, 07:43 PM
It would be a really easy fix to have a penalty for hanging out in the opponent's spawn area, even one as bad as draining stamina or match points. Sure, they could still camp right outside, but at least this way the oppressed could group up properly.

EIGHTYYARDS NYC
05-09-2018, 08:44 PM
900 hours on xbox, just started PC (uplay says just short of 5 hours in pvp and 30 all together with the campaign and trials). In that near five hours I have had teams unable to take home in sanctuary bridge and spawn zone killed in gauntlet, so I would say it is the same issue across platforms.


A purple flamingo attached to Falcor the luck dragon ;)

I could be wrong but I don't think there is a platform disparity when it comes to deathballing in Dominion.

You could be, Im not sure if you are, but I do know youre wrong about my reason for asking. I simply was asking because dont fight the deathball, join a deathball. What I mean is if you want a team we always have a spot. Ive played with several people on the forums. Not regularly but in the past. Currently we could always use another player, so if youre interested my GT on X1 is the same as my username here.