PDA

View Full Version : Please help to explain why Orochi didn't get things he needed in the rework



SuspectTexas630
05-08-2018, 04:50 PM
Sure faster sight lights and more chains were needed, but where is an unblockable, soft feint, bleed, or bash? He has no opener options still, I feel as if they fixed some of the parts of Orochi that wasn't needed when he just needs an opener and an unblock able with nowadays the way this game is headed, every character needs a soft feint Guard Break, and at least access to one unblock able. When you match Orochi up to berserker or Shaman there is no chance, both of these characters especially Shaman have access to everything and she is a top tier character. But for now Orochi is nothing but a 1v1 character, he offers no value in team battles other than to look cool while sucking when getting ganked. Might as well switch to one of the actually good assassins... Had high hopes for the rework. Some good stuff but not what he really needed...

wanderingmunic
05-08-2018, 04:54 PM
Doesn't he have a unlockable deflect? So there's your unlockable....he also does not need a bleed in his kit whatsoever. Beserker is a very strong char right now and he doesn't have any bleeds at all.

SuspectTexas630
05-08-2018, 05:00 PM
I'm not saying Rochi needs bleed at all but he doesn't have very good accessibility to his deflect under this turtle meta... kind hard to deflect someone who waits for you to attack first. yah know? He just doesn't have the same things as most the god tier characters who are assassins. I personally am disappointed with SR (Storm Rush) you don't get guaranteed damage after it lands now and on top of that it feels like it doesn't really get much damage in general on the initial attack. AND ON TOP OF THAT you can no longer soft feint SR to a GB this is something I was very mad about.

Roseguard_Cpt
05-08-2018, 05:07 PM
Sure faster sight lights and more chains were needed, but where is an unblockable, soft feint, bleed, or bash?

Unblockable: Deflects
Soft Feint: Unblockable heavy deflect into GB
Bleed: Sharpen Blades, not every assassin needs innate bleed
Bash: Orochi is a "Counter Attacker", this is against the archetype, just like how we don't give the Shugoki bleed, he's a "Hard Hitter", not "Predatory"

Hope it helps,
RGC

KotoKuraken
05-08-2018, 05:16 PM
Unblockable: Deflects
Soft Feint: Unblockable heavy deflect into GB
Bleed: Sharpen Blades, not every assassin needs innate bleed
Bash: Orochi is a "Counter Attacker", this is against the archetype, just like how we don't give the Shugoki bleed, he's a "Hard Hitter", not "Predatory"

Hope it helps,
RGC

Shinobi and Lawbringers are both classified as "Counter Attacker" and both have good bashes. Counter Attackers need bashes so they can punish people who don't attack at all

Hope it helps

Roseguard_Cpt
05-08-2018, 05:27 PM
You make a good point. For me personally I've just got a thing against unblockables from my 10 reps on the pre-rework Conq, where it felt pointless to have shield if it didn't actually block anything, these days though it's definitely a bit more up in the air. For Shinobi I can agree that the bash doesn't fit the archetype, but for LB it's ("best used') as a counter move as people can usually see it coming and avoid it otherwise.
To replace a lack of bash I might suggest giving Orochi back the Alpha version of the deflect mechanic (block at the right moment like a parry) so he can use the core part of his kit a bit easier.

guor6800
05-08-2018, 05:31 PM
Unblockable: Deflects
RGC

So I am supposed to use my deflect to open up a turtle. Wow how have I not thought of it until now?

Get real guys. If the enemy does not make parry attempts oro is pretty useless.
Even with the new rework how is he supposed to to open up a guy that sits over there just blocking? Stare him to death?

KotoKuraken
05-08-2018, 05:36 PM
So I am supposed to use my deflect to open up a turtle. Wow how have I not thought of it until now?

Get real guys. If the enemy does not make parry attempts oro is pretty useless.
Even with the new rework how is he supposed to to open up a guy that sits over there just blocking? Stare him to death?

Correction: if an enemy doesn't attack until you do, Orochi is useless. Having a bash like Shinobi or Lawbringer to open up opponents who don't attack at all can help. Since those are both Counter Attacker characters, there should be no reason why Orochi has to be denied a bash

Trenk2009
05-08-2018, 05:44 PM
Sigh ... That thread is so stupid ...

If you want every char to have the wame kit as every other char then let's us tall play the same char --'

What you are saying is so dumb. I'm already disapoited with the PK rework; if they have done what you suggest for orochi I would have **** on them.
Orochi's kit isn't construcded around a bash, bleed, or freaking unblockable for christ sake !
He is supposed to be COUNTER ATTACKING BURSTER !

Find a opening, go in, burst quckly great damage with fast strikes and then either go back or go on for another burst ! Simple as that !

Stop asking for dumb **** like unblckables for every char.

Yeah, Orochi won't be S tier so what ?! Yes he won't be able to open up very good turtles so what ?!

I prefer having a char with personality than just the same char with a different skin !

Knight_Raime
05-08-2018, 06:13 PM
Sure faster sight lights and more chains were needed, but where is an unblockable, soft feint, bleed, or bash? He has no opener options still, I feel as if they fixed some of the parts of Orochi that wasn't needed when he just needs an opener and an unblock able with nowadays the way this game is headed, every character needs a soft feint Guard Break, and at least access to one unblock able. When you match Orochi up to berserker or Shaman there is no chance, both of these characters especially Shaman have access to everything and she is a top tier character. But for now Orochi is nothing but a 1v1 character, he offers no value in team battles other than to look cool while sucking when getting ganked. Might as well switch to one of the actually good assassins... Had high hopes for the rework. Some good stuff but not what he really needed...

He has unblockables via deflect. Soft feinting/bashes are meant to open a hero up. Orochi isn't meant to. He's meant to punish off of peoples reactions. Storm rush is his new initiating tool and it's a strong one. Hurricane blast beats a HA spaming berzerker. and since both riptide and SR are outside zerks short range the match up is more even. Zerk also relies on a lot of feint baiting. Which won't work VS SR because it will be cancelable at any time up until the attack starts.

The match up with zerk is still in zerks favor but it's not as one sided as you believe. Shaman is hard punished by the entire cast sans 2 people in most cases if you read her properly. Everyone can get a GB or more from dodging her pounce/bite. everyone sans 2 heros can back dash to avoid her jump heavy and it's mix up. Her zone is unsafe after the first 2 hits and is light parry punished for letting it continue. and parrying any of her bleed cancels is also a light parry punish. The only reason Shaman is A tier is because she has more options than most heros do to attempt to mix up with. She still has pretty awful matchups vs the current S tier heros.


I'm not saying Rochi needs bleed at all but he doesn't have very good accessibility to his deflect under this turtle meta... kind hard to deflect someone who waits for you to attack first. yah know? He just doesn't have the same things as most the god tier characters who are assassins. I personally am disappointed with SR (Storm Rush) you don't get guaranteed damage after it lands now and on top of that it feels like it doesn't really get much damage in general on the initial attack. AND ON TOP OF THAT you can no longer soft feint SR to a GB this is something I was very mad about.

Mate there is no turtle meta. It's safe aggression now. Turtling was strong pre season 5 due to the rewards you got from playing passively. Now that those are gone players attack a lot more.


Shinobi and Lawbringers are both classified as "Counter Attacker" and both have good bashes. Counter Attackers need bashes so they can punish people who don't attack at all

Hope it helps


LB doesn't have a good bash. He relies on the person attacking him. Assassins negate it entirely with deflect/dodge attack. and most other heros have some soft feint and/or bash from neutral to circumvent it. Block into bash only really hurts a few people badly. and it's not sticking around once he's reworked. Shinobi's kick is also not a good bash. Shinobi no longer can back dash into another dash for a kick anymore due to back dash nerf. So his options for mixing up it's directions are limited now. and his kick is dodgable on reaction. The only thing good about it is that you can back flip away after a whiff. Which most people can't punish it consistently along side the kick.

Giving everyone a bash circumvents defensive play. So no.

KotoKuraken
05-08-2018, 07:23 PM
He has unblockables via deflect. Soft feinting/bashes are meant to open a hero up. Orochi isn't meant to. He's meant to punish off of peoples reactions. Storm rush is his new initiating tool and it's a strong one. Hurricane blast beats a HA spaming berzerker. and since both riptide and SR are outside zerks short range the match up is more even. Zerk also relies on a lot of feint baiting. Which won't work VS SR because it will be cancelable at any time up until the attack starts.

The match up with zerk is still in zerks favor but it's not as one sided as you believe. Shaman is hard punished by the entire cast sans 2 people in most cases if you read her properly. Everyone can get a GB or more from dodging her pounce/bite. everyone sans 2 heros can back dash to avoid her jump heavy and it's mix up. Her zone is unsafe after the first 2 hits and is light parry punished for letting it continue. and parrying any of her bleed cancels is also a light parry punish. The only reason Shaman is A tier is because she has more options than most heros do to attempt to mix up with. She still has pretty awful matchups vs the current S tier heros.



Mate there is no turtle meta. It's safe aggression now. Turtling was strong pre season 5 due to the rewards you got from playing passively. Now that those are gone players attack a lot more.




LB doesn't have a good bash. He relies on the person attacking him. Assassins negate it entirely with deflect/dodge attack. and most other heros have some soft feint and/or bash from neutral to circumvent it. Block into bash only really hurts a few people badly. and it's not sticking around once he's reworked. Shinobi's kick is also not a good bash. Shinobi no longer can back dash into another dash for a kick anymore due to back dash nerf. So his options for mixing up it's directions are limited now. and his kick is dodgable on reaction. The only thing good about it is that you can back flip away after a whiff. Which most people can't punish it consistently along side the kick.

Giving everyone a bash circumvents defensive play. So no.

lol, not a good bash?
LB has hyperarmor on his bash, even with the one he can initiate from neutral, and it can be chained into a light, a guardbreak, or a heavy, giving you some mindgame options
Shinobi guarantees a 30 damage heavy and it has hyperarmor.

Both can be used on dodge, so that you can dodge someone's attack and bash them so that they can't dodge it, and it can be used as a device to make people guess if that next dodge will be a bash or a guardbreak

Keep in mind, Shinobi, Lawbringer, and Orochi all all classified as Counter Attacker. There's no reason to deny Orochi a bash

HazelrahFirefly
05-08-2018, 07:49 PM
Orochi doesn't need a single thing listed in this thread so far. He does not need a bash or unblockable.

The Storm Rush rework is ****ing perfect. It's exactly what he needed to mindgame people. If you don't see the options then look harder.

The one thing that should still be implemented is something that applies to all assassins, or anybody who deflects. They need to be uninterruptable. Yes, the Orochi's heavy is uninterruptable and hopefully it will remain that way after the rework. His light can be interrupted and likely still will after the rework. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Baturai
05-08-2018, 08:01 PM
Stormrush into gb has to comeback. !!!!!

Knight_Raime
05-08-2018, 08:51 PM
lol, not a good bash?
LB has hyperarmor on his bash, even with the one he can initiate from neutral, and it can be chained into a light, a guardbreak, or a heavy, giving you some mindgame options
Shinobi guarantees a 30 damage heavy and it has hyperarmor.

Both can be used on dodge, so that you can dodge someone's attack and bash them so that they can't dodge it, and it can be used as a device to make people guess if that next dodge will be a bash or a guardbreak

Keep in mind, Shinobi, Lawbringer, and Orochi all all classified as Counter Attacker. There's no reason to deny Orochi a bash

Only on his dodge bash. And if you seriously think that bash is good you're a worse player than I thought you were. it having armor means nothing. Basically any trade made is not in favor of LB. the GB off of a bash isn't good because it doesn't come out right after the bash. There is a small delay. And even if these 2 things were not true deflect/dash attack beats those "mind games."

Not always. depends on what he traded with. and your comment still doesn't change my point. which is how easy it is to dodge his kic on reaction. If you dodge on reaction with either hero you're easily baited.

I gave a reason. Giving everyone a bash from neutral ignores defensive play. Which is a bad idea. I'm done talking to you. You clearly don't know anything.

KotoKuraken
05-08-2018, 09:15 PM
Only on his dodge bash. And if you seriously think that bash is good you're a worse player than I thought you were. it having armor means nothing. Basically any trade made is not in favor of LB. the GB off of a bash isn't good because it doesn't come out right after the bash. There is a small delay. And even if these 2 things were not true deflect/dash attack beats those "mind games."

Not always. depends on what he traded with. and your comment still doesn't change my point. which is how easy it is to dodge his kic on reaction. If you dodge on reaction with either hero you're easily baited.

I gave a reason. Giving everyone a bash from neutral ignores defensive play. Which is a bad idea. I'm done talking to you. You clearly don't know anything.

lol, only someone who has nothing to say starts talking with insults, especially on forums meant for objectively discussing feedback. If you can't see the point of bashes I don't know what to tell you. Bye, have a nice day :)

Arekonator
05-08-2018, 10:00 PM
Its one of, if not THE slowest neutral bash in the game. Because how slow and easily reactable it is, you cant really dodge into GB like conq can. And on top of that, it doesnt guarantee you anything. While you have some mind game options when you try to predict opponent punish and heavy feint into parry/gb, it all goes out of the window when opponent simply decides not to play and just roll away. At that point, all you manage to acomplish is to slow the fight down and make it more frustrating. Opponent going OOS from roll doesnt mean anything too, because LB got zero OOS pressure.
Its probably the worst bash in the game (maybe save for valk), it just happens to be also the most frustrating.