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View Full Version : Orochi rework a.k.a. A "week rework".



Pirus_
05-08-2018, 05:57 AM
So, basicly what we've got is faster lights, damage reduced on openers, proper soft feint dash, changed Rip Tide to be faster as a light attack (why no leave both Rip Tides?) and what's really good is that they changed Strom Rush to be more viable.

Why do I called it a "week rework" then? I don't know how it looks on consoles, but I can guarantee you that it will take a week until PC mid and high tier players will figure out what Orochi now does and he will slide way down to a D-tier hero max. He still has no opener, no unblockable and no soft feints which are way to go in For Honor at every champion in my opinion. Because of that I've got a feeling that Ubi is kinda looking mostly on console players and all of there reworks and changes are made by looking on situation on consoles. I really don't know how it is to play in For Honor on consoles, but by far as I seen on YouTube For honor looks easier. Maybe it's beacuse console players are not used to play harsh, competetive games which PC is full of, maybe it's beacuse there is no 60 FPS on consoles, but for me console play looks easier.

Knowing what's above I can really tell you - on PC it will be a week maximum until players would get use to what Orochi do and he will be STILL unable to open turtles, STILL constantly parried whenever you will try to lunch that "good fast crazy light chains". There is NO WAY that any mid and high tier player would let you throw 3 lights in chain without parry. And even if he will figure out that he can't - he will block that. What's then? Would I have to spam lights and zones again to try to open him? Or would I have to try this new Storm Rush and hope that he won't magicly see from where attack comes from?

And before you will start to tell me that: "Orochi is a counter attacker, he don't need to have opener or unblockable" or "faster attacks will do the job, you don't need no opener or unblockable". Wait. It's not open beta, and there is no 5 heroes, but 15. And there is few which are pretty similar to what Orochi actaully is and what he will be. First of - he is a assasin. There are assasins which has openers and unblockables and there is even one which has hyper armor every 2nd heavy attack even if 1st was feinted. Why do Orochi has to not have any of these? Because he is a Counter-Attacker? Well it's pretty hard to counter if someone's is denying to attack.
I'm not asking for some stupid unblockalbe for 60 DMG thrown out of nothing or a kick which will stun you and drain half of your stamina. I'm asking for some ninja-styled knee to stomach after dash which will throw you out of stance, letting me to throw single light. That's it. All what Orochi's opener has to do is Open when someone is denying to fight. And a unblockable which he needs is just simple 2nd side heavy after 1st light which can be soft feinted into something, into dash, gb, light, whatever. Just some sort of things which will help me to keep flow of the fight.

Why do the fastness won't do the work? We already have a Aramusha guy, which was kinda good at the begining, but now there is no way that you will kill someone by throwing lights. You will say: "well there are Aramushas which kills people by using his chain". Yes, but he has very good soft feints, and without mixing his chain with soft and hard feints you will do nothing. By spamming lights you can only kill some low tier players.
And we have PK which has fast lights, and what? Is there any mid and high tier PK which is killing people in duels by light chains? No, PKs are killing others which feints to light bleeding attacks and by constantly spamming zones, broken zones, so imo PK rework was pretty much needed, thus I would rework Valk first, but we are not talking jere about that.

Orochi needs opener, unblockalbe which he can soft feint to few things and that's the only way to keep him at least on B-tier at high elo and A-tier on mid elo, otherwise it's a "week rework" at lest on PC. I'm not telling that Ubi is doing nothing, much thanks for that rework, sure he will be kinda better, but he won't have what he really needed, and he won't have tools to stay good longer than a weak.

SHRiIVIP
05-08-2018, 06:01 AM
Could we maybe hope for a "month rework" next time?

Also, with the hefty majority of the player base being on console kinda seems like it doesn't matter how Orochi does on PC.

Card1acArrest
05-08-2018, 06:35 AM
spend your energy on trying him out at launch. then sum up here thereafter.

not vica versa... ;)

PDXGorechild
05-08-2018, 10:19 AM
Yeah give it a chance dude. I thought the same of the Berserker reworks when I first learnt about them, didn't think it would help his situation much at all, but turns out he became one of the best classes. A few subtle changes can make all the difference in the world.

EvoX.
05-08-2018, 10:33 AM
You are correct in assuming PC players will get used to it in a few weeks, but really? D-tier? That's just wrong.

Orochi so far looks like a very nerfed version of Berserker - 400 ms chain attacks that can't come from feints and don't have HA, no Unblockable, not as good zone, not as good feint game. I still have no clue why it's okay for one class to get so much buffs in their rework, but another gets half or less than that.

PDXGorechild
05-08-2018, 10:53 AM
You are correct in assuming PC players will get used to it in a few weeks, but really? D-tier? That's just wrong.

Orochi so far looks like a very nerfed version of Berserker - 400 ms chain attacks that can't come from feints and don't have HA, no Unblockable, not as good zone, not as good feint game. I still have no clue why it's okay for one class to get so much buffs in their rework, but another gets half or less than that.

He got UB properties on his two slowest moves as a trade for a massive damage nerf on one of them. He also got a few minor damage increases and hyper armour on feint. That's it.

Devils-_-legacy
05-08-2018, 10:55 AM
^you forgot zerk got both his zones nurfed as well one has like double the stamina use and the other no longer ledges

EvoX.
05-08-2018, 10:58 AM
He got UB properties on his two slowest moves as a trade for a massive damage nerf on one of them. He also got a few minor damage increases and hyper armour on feint. That's it.

Kinda funny how this is what makes him S-tier, quite possibly the best Duel hero after PK gets nerfed, but Roachi will probably settle down in B-tier, isn't it?

Devils-_-legacy
05-08-2018, 11:20 AM
If anything his strength comes from his feints not the ub

Mini1900
05-08-2018, 11:36 AM
Yeah give it a chance dude. I thought the same of the Berserker reworks when I first learnt about them, didn't think it would help his situation much at all, but turns out he became one of the best classes. A few subtle changes can make all the difference in the world.
yes , u r talking about zerk, zerk was 10 time better than orochi and got rework to 2 unblockables and uninterruptible and a ****ing fast attack as feint, but after 2 weaks ,everyone could block these feint fast lights, so he just had the chance to work with unblockables and try his uninterruptible to trade. But orochi has non of them. And me as pc play with rep 108 and orochi rep 18 know that these attacks of rochi will get at least blocked easily after 1 or 2 weeks. Always the same, if u bring out a "REWORK" u have to think about all players , new ones , but old ones aswell . Not just add new cool moves and everybody is happy ! orochi was weak and sadly willnt be top tier with these changes . 4v4 maybe will do better becaus of being fast but 1v1 still lowtier.

Knight_Raime
05-08-2018, 04:35 PM
Tired of re typing so i'll just copy paste my response from other rochi threads:

"Rochi has an unblockable deflect. He doesn't need anymore.

Storm rush can't be reacted to on back dodge because riptide strike covers it. It has variable timing and you won't be able to see what side it's coming from till after the attacks started. The top storm rush has undodgable property. Meaning in order to avoid you'll have to roll away if you don't feel like trying to block. The Storm rush hit counts as a heavy and the first hit in his chain. That means even if you block he can still follow up with a 400ms light. And that light can lead into a heavy finisher which he can back dodge out of into riptide or another storm rush or a dash attack. Or it can just be feinted to parry your parry attempt or feint into GB to GB your parry attempt. Storm rush will also be cancelable at any time before the attack like how it was in the beta.

Riptide itself seems to be 500-600ms now which means it can punish conq's shield bash vary timing on reaction. among some other potent mix ups. And nearly all of his attacks got faster by 100ms. Of course Orochi will still not have an option against someone who turtles up and only goes for free damage occasionally. That doesn't mean the rework is bad. That's not the current meta anyway. Safe aggression is. And seeing as how orochi is a counter attacker he should do fine in this meta."

On top of that. Soft feints, unblockables, and armor are not needed to make a kit functional/good. Orochi is a pure counter attacker. He could have been given any of those things and done better. But would have lost his identity. Giving everyone an "opener" just circumvents defensive play entirely. Which isn't a good idea. They never tried to have orochi open turtles. They always designed Orochi around punishing the person with counter attacks. If we still existed in a time where defensive play was super strong then yes he would need a different rework.

But It's no longer meta to turtle up. All of the S tier heros are S tier because they have access to some safe aggression. Not because they're great at turtling. Defensive play was only the best pre season 5 because of the redic rewards you got for it. That's no longer the case. Competitive/top tier players are already saying orochi is A tier. I'd rather believe their word over yours.

Knight_Raime
05-08-2018, 04:42 PM
Kinda funny how this is what makes him S-tier, quite possibly the best Duel hero after PK gets nerfed, but Roachi will probably settle down in B-tier, isn't it?

B tier heros have poor match ups vs S tier heros and only one viable tool.
Season 6 rochi has hurricane blast mix up which is great against a HA spammy zerk and glad in general.
Rochi's riptide strike will be fast enough to punish conq's varied bash timings on reaction.

Everything about SR and how it behaves and being covered up by riptide pretty much seals glads fate. Full block baiting won't work against it because rochi can hard feint out of SR at any point before the attack starts like how he was able to in the beta. And since it's out of zerks range the zerk will have to properly guess instead of spamming through it.

Rochi easily replaces warlord in A tier. unsure if he's better than shaman. But not better than HL or Kensei purely because both have an answer to defensive play. Rochi doesn't. Not saying Rochi has favorable match ups vs conq or zerk. But the match ups are a lot closer now. The match up is absolutely in rochi's favor though vs gladiator.

SuspectTexas630
05-08-2018, 04:55 PM
I so agree he has no options in terms of opening up people, I am a console player and have faced some very high tier players, this will not cut it with the Orochi, other than his new riptide and faster lights he is gonna have the very same struggle. Everyone saw how fast riptide is now, and it gonna make it worse because turtles are gonna turtle up even more as they are expected this move to be over used immediately after the release of season 6. Orochi Rework SUCKED. period. nothing more to say except season 6 reworks are a waste of time and effort.

PDXGorechild
05-08-2018, 05:15 PM
Kinda funny how this is what makes him S-tier, quite possibly the best Duel hero after PK gets nerfed, but Roachi will probably settle down in B-tier, isn't it?

My point is we don't know yet. Mentioning Zerk was just to highlight the fact that I was underwhelmed when I heard about his changes, but they turned out to be really good. Orochi is not Zerk. They are almost polar opposites so comparing them is pointless.


yes , u r talking about zerk, zerk was 10 time better than orochi and got rework to 2 unblockables and uninterruptible and a ****ing fast attack as feint, but after 2 weaks ,everyone could block these feint fast lights, so he just had the chance to work with unblockables and try his uninterruptible to trade. But orochi has non of them. And me as pc play with rep 108 and orochi rep 18 know that these attacks of rochi will get at least blocked easily after 1 or 2 weeks. Always the same, if u bring out a "REWORK" u have to think about all players , new ones , but old ones aswell . Not just add new cool moves and everybody is happy ! orochi was weak and sadly willnt be top tier with these changes . 4v4 maybe will do better becaus of being fast but 1v1 still lowtier.

Wouldn't say he's 10 times better than Orochi even now. Orochi does not need Unblockables, because these new changes will give him so many more options. I'll direct you to read Raimes pretty comprehensive post above.

Knight_Raime
05-08-2018, 06:25 PM
I so agree he has no options in terms of opening up people, I am a console player and have faced some very high tier players, this will not cut it with the Orochi, other than his new riptide and faster lights he is gonna have the very same struggle. Everyone saw how fast riptide is now, and it gonna make it worse because turtles are gonna turtle up even more as they are expected this move to be over used immediately after the release of season 6. Orochi Rework SUCKED. period. nothing more to say except season 6 reworks are a waste of time and effort.

K so one turtles are not effective anymore. But i'll humor you. A turtle is someone who rarely parries/goes for safe options/tries to punish predictable play. Lets look how that's not possible with new orochi.

Lets say the turtle wants to try and punish SR/riptide because a dash before an attack is generally pretty reactable. Turtle tries to GB. GB bounces off because riptides speed punishes it. Turtle tries to attack. Riptide punishes it because distance and speed. Turtle attempts to feint bait for a parry. SR direction is hidden and varies in speed. Turtle decides to just block and punish after. SR is a heavy. so combo continues. Into a 400ms light that can come from any side. Even GOOD player struggle to react to 400ms attacks. So blocking gives orochi free damage of his light we will say 80% of the time. Finally turtle decides he doesn't want to mess with this and tries to dodge. Top SR is undodgable regardless of where you dash. You'd have to roll.

So. What have we established? You can't react to orochi on back dash alone. And because Orochi is all about that back dash now people are forced to deal with what happens after Rochi decides to commit to something. This doesn't touch on the fact that Orochi can at any time dash out of a heavy finisher to punish his opponents reaction with various tools such as his undodgable dash attacks, more storm rush/riptide, or deflecting into a potential other mix up.

In order to beat this new Orochi you'll have to be the aggressor and not allow orochi to do anything. OR you're going to have to get good at punishing whatever orochi chooses to do against you. Which will likely not be predictable/reactable and have to be done on a read.

Also i'm pretty sure blocking orochi's riptide still lets a combo happen. they talked about it having an interrupt animation on block. Or something similar. if that's true then he gets into the same situation of being able to do a heavy finisher and dodge out into various options.

ArchDukeInstinct
05-08-2018, 10:18 PM
A lot of people thought the Beserker rework was going to to accomplish nothing at all and Berserker would still be a C tier character but now he's at the top.
There's a lot of variables, you should wait until the rework is actually released and people have had time to play with it.

Tyrjo
05-09-2018, 05:48 PM
Orochi is going to be a beast after the changes. Stop asking for unblockables like it's the holy savior of a hero's kit.

Pirus_
05-10-2018, 06:30 AM
To preform an unblockable deflect you still require enemy which will attack you, however this unblockable ain't doing the unblockable job, because in higher elo unblockables are not used to hit enemies trought block but to let them guess if they have to parry or not. Especially while enemy is OOS. Champions with unblockable from "nothing" (means champs which can just stand and deliver UB) has a huge adventage while you are OOS, Orochi has nothing, GBs and attacks = zero pressure on OOS enemies.

Now, what you described in quote is practically the same thing that Ubi shown on Warrior's Den stream which I seen live. It's still dosen't make things straight. See - you won't be able to do all this combos on any elo above medium. You won't put three lights in any of the enemies on PCs.
Let's look on combo which you described, this stormrush to light to heavy and soft feint dash. First off, I don't know if you did a mistake or if I do not understand something, but you need to let that 3rd heavy fly to perform dash soft feints, mens it needs to hit an enemy or hit his block (idk if it will work with missed heavy, similar to Nobushi kick which she can perform even if she misses the attack). What does that means? You wil preform a Storm Rush, enemy will magicaly won't be able to even block this, then you will drop light which has proly the biggest chance to actually hit the body and they you want to finish it with heavy?
You are console player, right?
Let me tell you. Even if SR will hit the body or block, then light will hit the body there is still no way that 3rd heavy will hit, and most likely on PC mid tier and above it will get parried. That's the problem of that. You will be able to finish chain rarely, so all of this soft feint dashes will be useless. And even if you will be able to spam **** around to get that dashes then what can you do from that? Zephyr Slash, Strom Rush and Rip Tide. Ofc you can do some wierd **** like dash feint heavy gb or just dash to gb, whatever. But sticking to his super new super fast combos, you can do ZS, SR and RT. None of these will hit if you will just perform that after chain. Doing all of these 3 dash attacks without enemy missed input - you will get parried. The only good thing is that any midly good Orochi won't ever miss a SR, cos if he will dash back after enemy attack, let the SR fly and he will see that enemy just recovered he will be able to cacnel SR anytime, so SR is now more safe, that's why I told in first place that this is the only REALLY good thing in this rework.

Defensive meta ain't gone and it will never be, it's only feel like it is because they actually added and reworked champs to have openers and unblockables, so you ain't able to turtle. While you are playing Orochi tne situation is different, you know what I mean? That's why orochi need one of these two things, opener or unblockable, because playing duels as Orochi is way trought the hell. Even if in the first round enemy tries to fight you back and you will rip him apart, then in next two rounds he is turtling hard, and you can do **** bout that. So turtle meta still exist vs Orochi and he needs some fix to end that. Why? Because you can't be a counter-attacker while there is no attacks. Turtle meta for Orochi begone in start of Season 2, where everyone aleady realised how parry is easy to perform and how much it gives.

And I don't know what competetive players you know, I'm 19 rep Orochi and most of the Orochi's I meet on PCs - Orochis, which consider themselves as good ones are just turtling with top lights, zone and feints to try to parry you, extermely boring to fight, where you have choice to just try **** and end it fast with lose or to play every round for at least 4 minutes trying to open him up. The best of those are these which have total rep 45, Orochi rep 8, their main is some Warden rep 30, they'll beat you up with parries and zones and they are like "how are you rep 19 Orochi".
To make it clear - no, parrying ain't part of Orochi playstyle, parrying is just core mechanic of the game, everyone can be counter-attacker by using parries, so parries are not a counter-attacks, its just a defensive option.
If he has to be a counter-attacker then he needs more combos and moves, now he has two moves, RT and SR. Give him like 4 more moves which he can combo'd it into something. Like I said in first post, why do they replaced Rip Tide? Why no leave both and these new could be called, idk, Tiger Leap (it looks like tiger leap imo).

I won't answer any more now, I can return to discussion with you just after Orochi rework and around weak after.



You all which says that Berserker rework was looking wack but then when you tried it in game it became super good. I mean - how could you see HA every 2nd attack and two extra UB and thought that won't be a good rework? Just how?

PDXGorechild
05-10-2018, 09:04 AM
You all which says that Berserker rework was looking wack but then when you tried it in game it became super good. I mean - how could you see HA every 2nd attack and two extra UB and thought that won't be a good rework? Just how?

Because one UB was at the end of a slow 3 hit heavy chain that nobody ever uses, and the other is a super slow top heavy and probably one of the most telegraphed moves in the game. Pretty good for forcing a reaction as it can be pulled out pretty quick with a light > heavy, sure, but I never used to let it land it unless it was safe anyway. All I really got was half the damage off my favourite move with the damage nerf.

As far as Hyperarmour is concerned, he had lots of it anyway. The opening hit to get dance of the paired blades was the challenge, once he was in full flow it was all hyper-armoured anyway. His lights being sped up was the only thing that excited me.

Knight_Raime
05-10-2018, 06:27 PM
To preform an unblockable deflect you still require enemy which will attack you, however this unblockable ain't doing the unblockable job, because in higher elo unblockables are not used to hit enemies trought block but to let them guess if they have to parry or not. Especially while enemy is OOS. Champions with unblockable from "nothing" (means champs which can just stand and deliver UB) has a huge adventage while you are OOS, Orochi has nothing, GBs and attacks = zero pressure on OOS enemies.

Now, what you described in quote is practically the same thing that Ubi shown on Warrior's Den stream which I seen live. It's still dosen't make things straight. See - you won't be able to do all this combos on any elo above medium. You won't put three lights in any of the enemies on PCs.
Let's look on combo which you described, this stormrush to light to heavy and soft feint dash. First off, I don't know if you did a mistake or if I do not understand something, but you need to let that 3rd heavy fly to perform dash soft feints, mens it needs to hit an enemy or hit his block (idk if it will work with missed heavy, similar to Nobushi kick which she can perform even if she misses the attack). What does that means? You wil preform a Storm Rush, enemy will magicaly won't be able to even block this, then you will drop light which has proly the biggest chance to actually hit the body and they you want to finish it with heavy?
You are console player, right?
Let me tell you. Even if SR will hit the body or block, then light will hit the body there is still no way that 3rd heavy will hit, and most likely on PC mid tier and above it will get parried. That's the problem of that. You will be able to finish chain rarely, so all of this soft feint dashes will be useless. And even if you will be able to spam **** around to get that dashes then what can you do from that? Zephyr Slash, Strom Rush and Rip Tide. Ofc you can do some wierd **** like dash feint heavy gb or just dash to gb, whatever. But sticking to his super new super fast combos, you can do ZS, SR and RT. None of these will hit if you will just perform that after chain. Doing all of these 3 dash attacks without enemy missed input - you will get parried. The only good thing is that any midly good Orochi won't ever miss a SR, cos if he will dash back after enemy attack, let the SR fly and he will see that enemy just recovered he will be able to cacnel SR anytime, so SR is now more safe, that's why I told in first place that this is the only REALLY good thing in this rework.

Defensive meta ain't gone and it will never be, it's only feel like it is because they actually added and reworked champs to have openers and unblockables, so you ain't able to turtle. While you are playing Orochi tne situation is different, you know what I mean? That's why orochi need one of these two things, opener or unblockable, because playing duels as Orochi is way trought the hell. Even if in the first round enemy tries to fight you back and you will rip him apart, then in next two rounds he is turtling hard, and you can do **** bout that. So turtle meta still exist vs Orochi and he needs some fix to end that. Why? Because you can't be a counter-attacker while there is no attacks. Turtle meta for Orochi begone in start of Season 2, where everyone aleady realised how parry is easy to perform and how much it gives.

And I don't know what competetive players you know, I'm 19 rep Orochi and most of the Orochi's I meet on PCs - Orochis, which consider themselves as good ones are just turtling with top lights, zone and feints to try to parry you, extermely boring to fight, where you have choice to just try **** and end it fast with lose or to play every round for at least 4 minutes trying to open him up. The best of those are these which have total rep 45, Orochi rep 8, their main is some Warden rep 30, they'll beat you up with parries and zones and they are like "how are you rep 19 Orochi".
To make it clear - no, parrying ain't part of Orochi playstyle, parrying is just core mechanic of the game, everyone can be counter-attacker by using parries, so parries are not a counter-attacks, its just a defensive option.
If he has to be a counter-attacker then he needs more combos and moves, now he has two moves, RT and SR. Give him like 4 more moves which he can combo'd it into something. Like I said in first post, why do they replaced Rip Tide? Why no leave both and these new could be called, idk, Tiger Leap (it looks like tiger leap imo).

I won't answer any more now, I can return to discussion with you just after Orochi rework and around weak after.



You all which says that Berserker rework was looking wack but then when you tried it in game it became super good. I mean - how could you see HA every 2nd attack and two extra UB and thought that won't be a good rework? Just how?

Player rep means nothing. I'm only an overall rep of 21 and I reg fight people who are much higher overall rep wise and win pretty often. Platform is also irrelevant. PC people have an "easier" time reacting because of monitor refresh rate over a standard tv. Which means they see more accurate information more often as it's happening. Not that they get extra time to react. 60 fps doesn't do that. You just see a better animation. Console players can be basically on par with pc one's by using a monitor and having a wired connection.

Giving everyone an opener circumvents defensive play which is not good. The game needs a balance of both. If every hero can just ignore someone blocking them with an unblockable mix up that just imbalances gameplay. You can't and should not try to fix player behavior with balance passes. A hero being able to block everything as a general concept is not bad. The main issue was always the rewards from playing that way. which they've fixed. Rochi is in a far better spot now than he was. And I didn't deny that he will struggle vs a turtle. What i'm saying is that's not a problem.

SenBotsu893
05-11-2018, 03:55 PM
Player rep means nothing. I'm only an overall rep of 21 and I reg fight people who are much higher overall rep wise and win pretty often. Platform is also irrelevant. PC people have an "easier" time reacting because of monitor refresh rate over a standard tv. Which means they see more accurate information more often as it's happening. Not that they get extra time to react. 60 fps doesn't do that. You just see a better animation. Console players can be basically on par with pc one's by using a monitor and having a wired connection.



kinda offtopic but:

platform is NOT irrelevant. even when using monitor and same controller the ps4 for example will still suffer from input lag. also 60 fps for pc is actually quite low. most will have at least 120+ fps when we talk about proper gaming pc (if its a big advantage to go from 60 to 120 fps is another thing though).

anyways playing on pc makes things waaaay more reactable than you give it credit for.

Knight_Raime
05-11-2018, 05:13 PM
kinda offtopic but:

platform is NOT irrelevant. even when using monitor and same controller the ps4 for example will still suffer from input lag. also 60 fps for pc is actually quite low. most will have at least 120+ fps when we talk about proper gaming pc (if its a big advantage to go from 60 to 120 fps is another thing though).

anyways playing on pc makes things waaaay more reactable than you give it credit for.

Maybe the ps4 is just worse with this game then. Because I didn't feel much of a difference when using a monitor and a wired connection with my xbox to playing on pc with 60 fps. I'd imagine if you had a proper setup where you were getting 120 frames or more it would be a big deal. but i'm talking about 60 fps exclusively because that's what most people compare consoles frame rate to.

Jarl.Felix
05-11-2018, 07:38 PM
I laugh when people cry for orochi, berserker, pk, gladiator, conq :))

Guys, try to play with some real classes like warden, raider, valk.. you will quit FH.

CandleInTheDark
05-12-2018, 06:05 PM
Guys, try to play with some real classes like warden, raider, valk.. you will quit FH.

Factually untrue, on xbox I have 15 reps between valk and warden, on PC valk has my first rep and after I have my 4v4 picks to rep 7 (or the rest of the heroes too, depends how I feel after the first five but know the enemy and all) I plan to get her to rep 50 on PC. Might take me a year or more if I rep everyone but stick around I'll post a screenshot ;) I don't main anyone because I fill gaps in 4v4 pug teams but she has always been among my favourites and I want rep 50 with one.

Speaking of Valk, while I am not saying she needs nothing doing to her (she does) it amuses me how quickly people say she or anyone is completley useless. The main complaint is that people always dodge the sweep after a shieldbash, well yeah if you are going to be predictable it will be predicted but if you know that people will predict the sweep why aren't you instead guardbreaking? Do that a couple times and people either get caught between dodge or cgb which enables a sweep to land or if they pick one and pick wrong they eat a heavy regardless, if they dodgeroll away they take a stamina hit after taking a stamina hit from the bash and unless you're low on stamina yourself you can pressure them with a dodge closer.

Pirus_
05-19-2018, 08:19 AM
Player rep means nothing. I'm only an overall rep of 21 and I reg fight people who are much higher overall rep wise and win pretty often. Platform is also irrelevant. PC people have an "easier" time reacting because of monitor refresh rate over a standard tv. Which means they see more accurate information more often as it's happening. Not that they get extra time to react. 60 fps doesn't do that. You just see a better animation. Console players can be basically on par with pc one's by using a monitor and having a wired connection.

Giving everyone an opener circumvents defensive play which is not good. The game needs a balance of both. If every hero can just ignore someone blocking them with an unblockable mix up that just imbalances gameplay. You can't and should not try to fix player behavior with balance passes. A hero being able to block everything as a general concept is not bad. The main issue was always the rewards from playing that way. which they've fixed. Rochi is in a far better spot now than he was. And I didn't deny that he will struggle vs a turtle. What i'm saying is that's not a problem.

So, as I promised I'm back to this discussion after a Orochi rework release.

Fastness didn't work on PC, idk how it is on consoles, but on PCs everybody stops you on 2nd light with block or even parry. Mostly Orochi's mains will parry your lights because they get used to new Orochi as first. Pretty much the only ones which complain about this rework as being "broken, game is done, lol bye for honor" are these, which tries to play vs new orochi as they would be fighting old Orochi. All players which are careful and which decides to turtle will stop you as usual. LB still doing block, shove, attack, wait. Starring competition last too long? Ok, few heavy feints to bait Orochi into attack and here we go: block, shove, free light."OrOcHi DoEs NoT nEeD a KiCk, He Is A cOuNtEr-AtTaCkEr!!!!11!"
As you propably know already - that dash after chain finisher does not exist as you won't ever get to 3rd chain attack unless you are playing vs level 1 Warden. Not eveyn saying that dash is completely useless, because all attacks which Orochi can do after dash are highly dependent on enemy attack. If enemy won't do any attack after your 3rd chain attack - if you somehow will get to 3rd attack - that dash cancel is kinda useless. No, you can't do sh*t which they showed on Warrior's Den, none of them dash cancel rip tide will connect without enemy imput before that.

Rip Tide - feels super week, sometimes if you will do that really fast vs super slow heroes you will get hit first, like - highlander does top heavy, you clicked Rip Tide pretty fast, you goes forward with attack and his attack just got you before, nice counter. As I was saying before - why no leave both Rip Tides? Just rename new one and Orochi would have 3 counte attacks, just WHY NOT?\

Storm Rush - do not even try to do top one, 10/10 would be parried unless you are playing vs insta-dashing PK. Both new storm rushes, this off-hand and top one, are kinda wierd, because they are lunched when you are just in front of your enemy. You see, old Storm Rush was tricky if you wanted to try hit Orochi first during run. Not parry, not block, not dodge, just hit him few MS beofre his hit. Characters with long reach could do that eazier, but when you tried it with some normal range character then you was usually hitten first. Why? Because the "attack deploy window" was wide, which means that Orochi was starting to attack when he was a couple feets before you and SR was connecting just in time when he was in your attack range. Now these new ones starts the animation when Orochi is just in front of you. Like, he stops his run and he starts the animation. What does that mean? All you have to do is throw heavy attack and be ready to cancel in case of Orochi SR cancel. And this "SR heavy counter window" is wide as fu*k right now. Whenever you will see Orochi running toward you just throw top heavy and wait. If he will cancel - cancel as well. If he will do "standard SR" then you might be in trouble because of that what I described above. But whenever Orochi will try to let them new SR fly, just let your heavy fly. You will hit him first and you will stop his SR. Don't try to parry it, don't try to dodge, just do a heavy.

It's just a few days. In a week or two Orochi will be in same spot. Feints to zones, top lights, or parry turtling.

Ubi, you don't need to give him a kick which will do some borken sh*t as other kicks in game. You don't need to give him a kick with stuns, stamina drops, broken distance. Just give side heavy soft feint to gb, which will lunch shurt jump to ninja-styled knee to stomach/chest which will drop enemy off of stance and let Orochi do one guaranteed light. And ofcourse this kick could be dodged. We need a way to open turtles and deny players which are like "ok Orochi main rips me apart, but I dont need to attack, let him attack cos what else he can do, meh". With that kick in my move set I don't need to even use it, you know what I'm saying? Its mind game. Enemies will do their own inputs because they know that whenever they will be over-waiting for Orochi's input - they will get kicked and light attacked.

Because, if you will show your enemy that you are a good Orochi, and he is playing a character which is not even designed to be a turtle, parry waiter, he would start to turtle anyway. Why? BECAUSE HE KNOW THAT ALL YOU CAN DO AS OROCHI IS ATTACK.

Just give him simple, small, not overpowered kick to open players which likes to play starring competition.

Knight_Raime
05-19-2018, 08:38 AM
So, as I promised I'm back to this discussion after a Orochi rework release.

Fastness didn't work on PC, idk how it is on consoles, but on PCs everybody stops you on 2nd light with block or even parry. Mostly Orochi's mains will parry your lights because they get used to new Orochi as first. Pretty much the only ones which complain about this rework as being "broken, game is done, lol bye for honor" are these, which tries to play vs new orochi as they would be fighting old Orochi. All players which are careful and which decides to turtle will stop you as usual. LB still doing block, shove, attack, wait. Starring competition last too long? Ok, few heavy feints to bait Orochi into attack and here we go: block, shove, free light."OrOcHi DoEs NoT nEeD a KiCk, He Is A cOuNtEr-AtTaCkEr!!!!11!"
As you propably know already - that dash after chain finisher does not exist as you won't ever get to 3rd chain attack unless you are playing vs level 1 Warden. Not eveyn saying that dash is completely useless, because all attacks which Orochi can do after dash are highly dependent on enemy attack. If enemy won't do any attack after your 3rd chain attack - if you somehow will get to 3rd attack - that dash cancel is kinda useless. No, you can't do sh*t which they showed on Warrior's Den, none of them dash cancel rip tide will connect without enemy imput before that.

Rip Tide - feels super week, sometimes if you will do that really fast vs super slow heroes you will get hit first, like - highlander does top heavy, you clicked Rip Tide pretty fast, you goes forward with attack and his attack just got you before, nice counter. As I was saying before - why no leave both Rip Tides? Just rename new one and Orochi would have 3 counte attacks, just WHY NOT?\

Storm Rush - do not even try to do top one, 10/10 would be parried unless you are playing vs insta-dashing PK. Both new storm rushes, this off-hand and top one, are kinda wierd, because they are lunched when you are just in front of your enemy. You see, old Storm Rush was tricky if you wanted to try hit Orochi first during run. Not parry, not block, not dodge, just hit him few MS beofre his hit. Characters with long reach could do that eazier, but when you tried it with some normal range character then you was usually hitten first. Why? Because the "attack deploy window" was wide, which means that Orochi was starting to attack when he was a couple feets before you and SR was connecting just in time when he was in your attack range. Now these new ones starts the animation when Orochi is just in front of you. Like, he stops his run and he starts the animation. What does that mean? All you have to do is throw heavy attack and be ready to cancel in case of Orochi SR cancel. And this "SR heavy counter window" is wide as fu*k right now. Whenever you will see Orochi running toward you just throw top heavy and wait. If he will cancel - cancel as well. If he will do "standard SR" then you might be in trouble because of that what I described above. But whenever Orochi will try to let them new SR fly, just let your heavy fly. You will hit him first and you will stop his SR. Don't try to parry it, don't try to dodge, just do a heavy.

It's just a few days. In a week or two Orochi will be in same spot. Feints to zones, top lights, or parry turtling.

Ubi, you don't need to give him a kick which will do some borken sh*t as other kicks in game. You don't need to give him a kick with stuns, stamina drops, broken distance. Just give side heavy soft feint to gb, which will lunch shurt jump to ninja-styled knee to stomach/chest which will drop enemy off of stance and let Orochi do one guaranteed light. And ofcourse this kick could be dodged. We need a way to open turtles and deny players which are like "ok Orochi main rips me apart, but I dont need to attack, let him attack cos what else he can do, meh". With that kick in my move set I don't need to even use it, you know what I'm saying? Its mind game. Enemies will do their own inputs because they know that whenever they will be over-waiting for Orochi's input - they will get kicked and light attacked.

Because, if you will show your enemy that you are a good Orochi, and he is playing a character which is not even designed to be a turtle, parry waiter, he would start to turtle anyway. Why? BECAUSE HE KNOW THAT ALL YOU CAN DO AS OROCHI IS ATTACK.

Just give him simple, small, not overpowered kick to open players which likes to play starring competition.

People are able to block his comboed attacks easily because they're currently bugged and forced to be buffered after storm rush. meaning the attacks are 100ms slower than they should be after storm rush lands. As for his 400ms light after landing a neutral light if you or your opponents are consistently blocking/parrying it that's not an orochi issue that's just you guys being too good at the game. Plenty of competitive pros still don't block/parry 400ms attacks on reaction. I'm inclined to take their words over yours anyway.

Dash cancel is amazing in 4v4. Not everything done to a hero is meant to be useful in all scenarios.

The real question is why would you be doing a top attack on reaction to another top attack. Old riptide would have been hit there as well. New riptide is strong because it can punish lots of things on reaction the old one couldn't. Conq's forward bash vary timing and warlords zone come to mind.

Storm rush bugs withstanding is amazing now.

No kick because orochi is not meant to open heros. giving every hero a way to ignore defensive play invalidates one playstyle. and for honor needs a healthy balance of both defensive and offensive play. If this new rochi is a joke for you to deal with that's because you're amazing not because the rework failed. I'm not discussing this further.

Pirus_
05-19-2018, 07:01 PM
People are able to block his comboed attacks easily because they're currently bugged and forced to be buffered after storm rush. meaning the attacks are 100ms slower than they should be after storm rush lands. As for his 400ms light after landing a neutral light if you or your opponents are consistently blocking/parrying it that's not an orochi issue that's just you guys being too good at the game. Plenty of competitive pros still don't block/parry 400ms attacks on reaction. I'm inclined to take their words over yours anyway.

Dash cancel is amazing in 4v4. Not everything done to a hero is meant to be useful in all scenarios.

The real question is why would you be doing a top attack on reaction to another top attack. Old riptide would have been hit there as well. New riptide is strong because it can punish lots of things on reaction the old one couldn't. Conq's forward bash vary timing and warlords zone come to mind.

Storm rush bugs withstanding is amazing now.

No kick because orochi is not meant to open heros. giving every hero a way to ignore defensive play invalidates one playstyle. and for honor needs a healthy balance of both defensive and offensive play. If this new rochi is a joke for you to deal with that's because you're amazing not because the rework failed. I'm not discussing this further.

I do not really know what competetive players you know that just can't handle 400ms lights if they are thrown just like that. Ofc, there is a problem with fast lights but ONLY if they are combo'd with mixups, like Aramrusha's lights. Do you want to tell me that comp. players are just rekt'd constantly by Aramushas cos he has fast attacks? No, cos he can mix up them into something totaly not obvious, and then this speed gives adventage, cos its really hard to keep up with it.
Orochi is not a mix up hero, its a counter attacker, so his lights in chain will be blocked and parried.
There is no chance to counter an attack if there is no attack - that's the main reason why Orochi need some tool to force people to attack, not because I asuming that everyone needs it in game. PK was ok for a long time without an opener, but she had a broken zone and bleeding. One GB in duel was taking from 1/3 to 1/2 of your HP (like Shinobi low hp pool).

I'll come back here last time like in week or two. See you.

Pirus_
05-26-2018, 05:40 AM
As I promised - I'm last time here after about two weeks from rework.

So, let's start it from the bottom to the head.

- Attack speed:
Till now everybody get used to them and you can't spam that on mid-elo. Here is it how it is: any 2nd light in chain gets mostly parried, almost eveytime blocked. Starting with side lights get's you parried. The only thing to do is trying to do top lights and then follow it up with heavy, feint it and then try something other. But it will work like two times per duel, then opponent gets use to that. So, basicaly you have to play OG Orochi style, which means you have to try to slide in top lights mixed with zones. Fastness do not work, as I said, as we have already fast champs in game and nobody kills anyobdy with spam, like... IDK why even Ubi thought that giving speed will work. Or Ubi just totally sh*t on PC players. Speed do not work on any elo above mid on PC, period.
Those lights are only fun vs pretty weak player with average parries. Then you might do some lights to heavies/heavy feint and you will spam him to death, then he will type on chat "orochi is broken" and he will go write it down on reddit.
Playing style didn't change at all on mid and higher elo.

- Rip Tide:
It's a back dash, end of the rant.

But for real, now you can get GB'd even more times than before, cos any GB during back dash will catch you. On old Rip Tide the opponent has a window to do GB. If he was late then he bounced off and you had free strike. Now they can GB you till whole dash time. Now RT is a light parry, so it gives your opponent a free heavy. IF you will manage to counter someone with RT then just do not follow it with any light in chain. It became so overused that it will get you parried. All you can do is stop and be happy that you did damage or follow it up with heavy feint and maybe you will figure out something from it.

- Storm Rush:
Eh, so... Now you have bigger window to cancel SR, it's pretty much during his whole run-time. Seems to be cool, but to achive that Ubi had to change the animations of SR. Now Orochi runs, when the time of cancelation passed, he stops, and then he start the animation of SR. Before SR cacnel window was smaller, so he was getting to attack animation much faster. What is the case? Before you had to block a SR, parry it or dodge. "Counter arracking" a SR was very risky. Now all you have to do is just throw 2nd attack (like, 1st was missed, Orochi found an oportunitty to counter with SR). All those anims are so slow that SR is just banned from being a counter attack. Belive, everybody knows that on any elo above average. They just follow up any missed attack with 2nd attack and Orochi runs into it. Actually you can "counter" someone with SR only in case when you just wanted to do something with SR and accidentaly opponent attacked in same time, so you let SR fly and you hitted him at the end on 1st attack animation. Whenever you will try to input SR a little after the start of enemy attack - he can stop you with 2nd attack follow up.
SR is good vs weak players and insta-dashing assasins. Ofc you might it it from time to time, cos maybe someone will not expect that you will let SR fly from nothing, but it was achiveable on old SR as well.
SR is not a counter attack anymore.
What is really good in SR and propably in whole rework is that SR cancel recovery time is pretty short which lets you do something other wiht it. What I like to do and it works even on higher elo is doing SR feint to fast heavy. It's messing with enemy parry timing really hard so it's a clean hit pretty often but mostly it's a block, but still. As well - do not follow it up with light even after clean hit - it will get you parried.

Typical match-up with 40 rep Warden:
He waits, he feint, he zones. If you will try to attack with light chains he will parry you. He tries to bait you for zephyr slash with heavy feints. If you will realize that you can't attack him like that and you will play passively then he will start to let you guessin what he gonna do from shoulder bash. What do you have to do? You have 3 options: 1. Turtle more and let him should bash you to death. 2. Try to attack and maybe you will manage to get some clean hits, but overall it will be a lose cos he will get paries. 3. Play OG Orochi with top lights, zones and defensive options. You will have 3 minute long rounds in duls, but you might win 3-2 or lose 2-3 which is not that bad.
To anyone who thought reading this *but you can counter his shoulder bash attempt with, idk, Rip Tide!". I remind you - I'm talking all the time about mid and above elo on PC. Even if he would fall one or two times for such a low elo counter then later he would do shoulder bash cancel and he would parry your RT, which would be a free heavy now.
So. You can't attack, you can't turtle up vs warden like this one. And it is a match up which I had today. I'm 35 rep player, 24 rep Orochi from Open betas. I played this game for Orochi, I bought it for Orochi, I watched multiple tutorials when I was starting with him and spent tens of hours on old and new training mode. I really know what to do. You just won't do any pressure having attacks only in your kit.
Warden like this one aboeve will be like: Orochi attacks? Ok, free parries. He don't? Shoulder bash guessing game. He play OG Orochi? Now we have to guess a little, sigh.

Can someone from UBI finally relate to this thread. I knew how it gonna be from the time when I saw this rework on live stream and it is how it is right now. I just started my YT channel but now I really starting to think about leaving For Honor as you won't touch Orochi anytime soon. If I will continue to play this then I would do a series named "orochi does not need an opener" which will sum this rework up in the most accurate way.

In the end I want to explain you something, cos I've got a feeling that you do not realy know this...

The meaning and usage of an opener!
Having opener in your kit does not mean that you will spam it all the time. It does not mean that you have guaranteed wins cos you will open people constantly. Having opener in your kit is a mind game, you know what I mean? Your opponent know that you have it and it's like 70% of openers job. Your enemy playsyle changes drastically as he know he can't stand and wait cos he might be opened, so he tries to attack in different ways and attacks from opponent is something which counter attacker mostly needs, right? So, Orochi with opener does not mean that he will be opening people up all the time, but it will give him more opportunities to counter and keep fight flow on by just having opener sitting calmly in his kit. The best example is Kensei and how fighting against him changed. You just can't turtle him anymore. And does he spams opener? Ofc he don't. But you know he can, right? He can open you if you will wait too long.

You see, Orochi needs the same type of opener. He does not need a opener like Warden's shoulder bash or Cent kick that would let him do combos and start damage chains. He needs an opener like Kensei, an opener which goes from something like side heavy soft feint to opener. Now, seeing Orochi doing side heavy you don't know. Be ready for parry? Dodge his opener? What if he will cacnel it to GB? Ok, I'ma wait to see what will happen - bang, opener connects, one free light. What would happen in next 10 seconds? Opponent would not be stanidng in place to avoid situations like this. After a week or two everybodu gets use to Orochi's opener and everybody - FINALLY - fights him, as they started to fight Kenseis.

At the end, few reminders:
- Ubi spammed UBs and openers all over the game so stop taking about "it's too much openers" when it came to Orochi. If it's too much then start to remove them.
- Orochi is not the only one counter attacker in game, Shinobi is one *cough* and he has a kick opener on which he plays around at regular basis *cough*, and LB is a counter-attacker *and he has UB shove, throw, UB in chain, etc *cough*. I'ma end this here, but there a more counter attackers in game which has all of this *cough* Aramusha's kick from blockade, hti from blockade and cancelable zone with UB to keep enemy guessing if he turtle up.. oh, and a hyper armor *cough*.

Just stop that and line Orochi up with the rest to fit current game play or start to take off that ub's, openers, ha's from others if it's too much *cough Orochi is an assasin as Shaman or Glady and I'm not even able to count how much UB's they have *cough*.