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RenegadeTX2000
05-08-2018, 02:21 AM
are you afraid you won't be on top anymore? no worries, that boi Berserker is right around the corner to keep your win streak alive.

HazelrahFirefly
05-08-2018, 02:52 AM
This thread is already confusing, but no, I'm not disappointed at all in the PK rework. I think it will make her fun again. I basically stopped playing her during S4 because her kit is too stale.

Knight_Raime
05-08-2018, 03:08 AM
I'm not. Unless her zone option select wasn't nerfed. (still hoping the patch notes say something about it) then i'll be slightly let down. Bleed now properly stacks and she can use both her soft feints in chains. Both of which were the only things I truly wanted. and the fact that they made dagger cancel actually usable is just icing on the cake.

RenegadeTX2000
05-08-2018, 04:13 AM
With the recent changes though to back dodge and now the damage nerf. I actually believe PK will do worse vs Berserker now. I mean the new mix up does help, but losing that damage vs a guy that trades is not good.

He feints, you go for parry option select that now does 15dmg instead of 20 dmg and he hits you with whatever he does in his armor. That's just even worse off for PK in that mu. I used to think PK vs Berserker was a toss up mu, but now it's looking more and more in berserks favor.

CandleInTheDark
05-08-2018, 04:20 AM
With the recent changes though to back dodge and now the damage nerf. I actually believe PK will do worse vs Berserker now. I mean the new mix up does help, but losing that damage vs a guy that trades is not good.

He feints, you go for parry option select that now does 15dmg instead of 20 dmg and he hits you with whatever he does in his armor. That's just even worse off for PK in that mu. I used to think PK vs Berserker was a toss up mu, but now it's looking more and more in berserks favor.

So use zerker, you do you, no need to try to convince others to main someone else. By your argument, it seems you think the peacekeeper is played only because she is strong, that says more about you than most peacekeeper mains.

Knight_Raime
05-08-2018, 05:33 AM
With the recent changes though to back dodge and now the damage nerf. I actually believe PK will do worse vs Berserker now. I mean the new mix up does help, but losing that damage vs a guy that trades is not good.

He feints, you go for parry option select that now does 15dmg instead of 20 dmg and he hits you with whatever he does in his armor. That's just even worse off for PK in that mu. I used to think PK vs Berserker was a toss up mu, but now it's looking more and more in berserks favor.

She will damage wise. But she still has the ability to zone option select his HA attacks for a deflect. Which is really strong. Her Heavy soft feint is probs the best in the game. it seems to reliably catch people in their start up frames more than any other one. and since zerk feints a lot and she now has access to these soft feints in combo the matchup isn't as bad as you probs think.

RenegadeTX2000
05-08-2018, 06:32 AM
So use zerker, you do you, no need to try to convince others to main someone else. By your argument, it seems you think the peacekeeper is played only because she is strong, that says more about you than most peacekeeper mains.

that's all you saw in tournaments lol what you mean

RenegadeTX2000
05-08-2018, 06:33 AM
If this was tournament 1v1's i'd go conq/berserker. and switch between those 2 depending on who I was up against.

CandleInTheDark
05-08-2018, 06:58 AM
that's all you saw in tournaments lol what you mean

Right and here is the thing, you're the one here saying now she is weak come play someone stronger, which means you are going on the assumption that every pk main was with her just because of her strength 1v1 and highlighting that you are maining the berserker who you feel is now the strongest. That says a lot more about you than pk mains.

Charmzzz
05-08-2018, 08:01 AM
I chose PK on Release as my Main because I liked her Style, both visually and fighting. I had no idea about how strong she was when I decided that she will be the Character I want to max Rep on. So no, I am not gonna switch to the fotm Zerk/Conq/Kensei Characters. I am just glad that they fix her Bugs and add a usable dagger cancel plus bleeds stacking.

What I did not find until now is the dodge-recovery nerf. I heard they want to nerf her side-dodge-recovery to 600ms, is that correct? Could someone post a link to the patch notes? Will they nerf all 500ms dodge-recoveries (e.g. Shaman)?

CandleInTheDark
05-08-2018, 08:12 AM
These were what affected assassins at the season 6 update, I can't recall if they mentioned side dodge in the last stream


[Adjustment] Back Dodge
Normalized all characters’ back dodge movement to 1.75m
Normalized the Back Dodge length to be 1100ms (which can be cancelled at 800ms).

Developer’s comment: Back dodge was too good, allowing players to easily and safely back out of combat. It also unfairly benefited fast Assassin characters. This nerf creates a standardized playing field for all back dodges across all characters, and makes it a tool that you now have to evaluate when to use.

[Adjustment] Deflect
While performing a successful Deflect, you have the “Deflect Defense” property instead of "Normal Block Defense” property, now allowing you to follow with another Deflect.
Slightly reduced the movement during the Deflect.

Developer’s comment:: We noticed that using Deflect against multi-hit moves like Berserker's Zone Attack didn't feel as good as we hoped, since you Deflect the 1st hit but then are forced to automatically Regular Block the next 3 hits. Now, if you Deflect the 1st hit you'll be able to Deflect subsequent hits, including incoming hits against external attackers.
We reduced the sideways movement so that you're more in-place, allowing you to count 4 Deflects against Berserker Zone Attack before launching your counter-attack.
Shinobi's Teleport was made slightly later so that it didn't get beaten by multi-hit attacks.

[Adjustment] Stance Change - Unlocking
When we start a Stance Change, then unlock from our target, we now allow the character to immediately exit the stance change and start to unlock.
This bug was most obvious with Reflex Guard Assassins, who were stuck for up to 1100ms.
[Adjustment] Stance Change – Reflex Guard Block
We made some under-the-hood changes that should fix the problem where Assassins were unable to block fast chains properly. (This problem was most often experienced against the Aramusha's light chain).

Charmzzz
05-08-2018, 08:16 AM
Thanks Candle, but I am referring to the side-dodge nerf everyone talks about: https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/8ho3lz/peacekeeper_rework/

CandleInTheDark
05-08-2018, 08:19 AM
Thanks Candle, but I am referring to the side-dodge nerf everyone talks about: https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/8ho3lz/peacekeeper_rework/

Hmm, weird, I honestly don't recall that. I know there are patch notes due this week so I don't know if the devs made an offhand comment I didn't catch (it was twitch, I had to type and listen as you can't pause it live and youtube was broken) but the damage nerf to sides is all I recall them talking about on that.

RenegadeTX2000
05-08-2018, 08:32 AM
Right and here is the thing, you're the one here saying now she is weak come play someone stronger, which means you are going on the assumption that every pk main was with her just because of her strength 1v1 and highlighting that you are maining the berserker who you feel is now the strongest. That says a lot more about you than pk mains.

I didn't say pk mains was with her because of her strength, and I also didn't say she was weak. and I didn't highlight that I was maining berserker... Boy you better re-read over everything and respond again, cause none of that you put down is what I said. Loool




. I said, switch over if you still want to be top dog. Tier list wise. I don't think she's #1 anymore, I think officially berserker took that spot now.

says a lot more about me. I know, I don't lose money. lol i actually win when it matters by switching to the best.

CandleInTheDark
05-08-2018, 08:54 AM
I didn't say pk mains was with her because of her strength, and I also didn't say she was weak. and I didn't highlight that I was maining berserker... Boy you better re-read over everything and respond again, cause none of that you put down is what I said. Loool

Except this is exactly what you say in the second half of your post, bolding emphasis mine



I said, switch over if you still want to be top dog. Tier list wise. I don't think she's #1 anymore, I think officially berserker took that spot now.

says a lot more about me. I know, I don't lose money. lol i actually win when it matters by switching to the best.

So yeah, what I said is exactly what you have been saying and did say in the very same post you told me you didn't.

Charmzzz
05-08-2018, 08:56 AM
Hmm, weird, I honestly don't recall that. I know there are patch notes due this week so I don't know if the devs made an offhand comment I didn't catch (it was twitch, I had to type and listen as you can't pause it live and youtube was broken) but the damage nerf to sides is all I recall them talking about on that.

It wasn't on the Den. It was released somewhere somehow later.

EvoX.
05-08-2018, 10:45 AM
Definitely am, they gave her a Stunning Tap and called it a day. Like, how is that even remotely close to classifying as a ''rework''?

RIP PK.

Knight_Raime
05-08-2018, 04:45 PM
Hmm, weird, I honestly don't recall that. I know there are patch notes due this week so I don't know if the devs made an offhand comment I didn't catch (it was twitch, I had to type and listen as you can't pause it live and youtube was broken) but the damage nerf to sides is all I recall them talking about on that.

Someone had talked to a developer post stream and the dev confirmed her side dash was being nerfed to 600ms. admittingly the person didn't reveal which dev said this. So we will have to wait till the patch notes drop.

Trenk2009
05-08-2018, 05:48 PM
Soooooo.

I'm not really happy about her. Actually, te only way I can describe this "rework" is with the sentence :"well at least it's a nerf"; which isn't a really great way to describe something as huge as a rework imo ...

Let's get started shall we.

1) The heavy cancel into bleed.
Not interesting. But necessecary. As explained during the stream, the huge flaw of that particular mixup was the fact that it came in the same direction as the heavy, thus making it countered by blocking in the very same direction originally. Also, the fact that the feint came super early also sometime lead to unwanted light parries, thus literraly going against the purpose of the actual move lol.
So yeah. That change was necessesary. A bit similiar to shaman now, but I can't think of anyway to make it useful so it's ok I guess.

2) The bleed unlimited stacking.
Feels like the best change. I think it must be quite funny to make the whole ennemy health pool go red. However, it kinda breakes the PK archetype right ? I mean, I've always looked at the PK as a poke type char. As said in her videos: go in, bleed; go out and watch; repeat. With the backdodge nerf, the "go out" part of the equation seems now quite unlikely? And now with this change, PK seems to go for more of a harasser type of char than a poke one.

3) The damage nerf.
Let's wait and see. Seems a bit heavy on the paper but you know, we'll see.

What I have imagined (damage values of inc S6 are kept) :

Make Pk a double stanced Warrior.
Upon deflecting, give Pk the ability to go for a heavy unblockable dagger strike, soft feintable with a gb (cancellable with the same timing window as the zerker unblockable - no 50/50 plz).
If the hit lands, deals 30 damage and stuck the dagger within the opponent flesh; making I'm bleed for 10 damage and for an infinite amount of time.
The opponent would then need to press O or B for something like 2 sec, to get the dagger out of him.
During the whole time the Pk lost her dagger, she stands up on her feet, get's her sword in front of her, puts her empty hand behind her back, and becomes a fencing warrior, with a whole new kit. Able to dance around her ennemy with quick and long movements, fast melee move to disrupt her opponent, and oppressing attacks to overwhelm him.

NEW CHAIN: Peri - Light + Light + Heavy
NEW CHAIN: Twisted Mind -> Light + Light + Light - PK pokes her ennemy with the tip of her sword, if the 2nd light hits, the 3rd one is guaranteed if direction not changed.
NEW CHAIN: Mighty Rage -> Infinite Heavies - PK spins and swings her weapon to keep an infinite momentum of heavies flowing.
NEW CHAIN PROPERTY: Under my rules ! - If PK's dagger is stuck in her opponent, each of her confirmed and regular blocked hit deals a small bonus amount of bleed damage
NEW CHAIN PROPERTY: Keep Up The Rythm ! - Upon landing an attack or getting regular blocked, PK next attack input can be pressed with a certain timing (similar to Absolver fight chain mecanic) so it get 100 ms faster each time up to 500ms heavys and 300ms lights.
NEW GB: Upon GBing an ennemy, PK in fencing form get's a guaranteed heavy.

NEW DODGE MOVE: Swift Dodge -> Upon pressing C (or right joystick down), PK glows white for a sec (visual feedback) and gets her sword behind her back (no actual delay between the input and the stance). Once in that stance, PK can't move anymore and trying to will lead PK to duck (Absolver windfall style once again). Doing so in the direction of an attack (parry timing) would make PK duck under the inc attack. If done correctly, PK performs a Dagger Shatter. If not (missed the parry timing), PK falls on the ground, allowing her opponent to punish her or take his dagger out.
The dodge it self has close to no actual recovery frames, but the Swift Dodge stance can get the opponent a free GB.
NEW MOVE: Dagger Shatter - Upon Swift Dodging succesfully, PK grabs her opponent and punches her dagger, inflicting a tremendous 45 bleed damage.

----> The whole new dodge mecanic is thought as a high risk, high reward move. Quickly inputing right stick down and left stick in the appropriate direction can be tricky to do but is possible on reaction, which is why I precisely said that there should be no delay between to input and the pk performing the moves; it's meant to be used as a sort of parry, not like an aramusha or a conq full block more of a "prediction" type of stance

HazelrahFirefly
05-08-2018, 07:39 PM
^
As someone told you in the thread you created with this exact same information... what you have there is an astoundingly overpowered hero. Its not even remotely balanced.

Anyways, I was thinking about it and the one thing that bothers me about the PK rework is that it is coming before the Valk or Warden rework; the latter of which I feel only needs a little, while the Valk needs cpr.

RenegadeTX2000
05-08-2018, 09:16 PM
Except this is exactly what you say in the second half of your post, bolding emphasis mine




So yeah, what I said is exactly what you have been saying and did say in the very same post you told me you didn't.

but she's not weak... lol did I say she was weak? answer me that

RenegadeTX2000
05-08-2018, 09:26 PM
Honestly guys I'm just afraid of the damage nerfs. I don't think she'll be able to keep up with characters she used to go even with or beat barely.

Conq, Berserker mainly. I just don't see it. Yeah new mix ups but those characters don't really give 2 cares about mix ups. They just run you over.... and to beat those 2 characters you have to abide your time and look for single shot openings which PK has been nerfed in damage wise. She has to work harder and usually those types just can't keep up in the long run. Too much stress, have to play near perfect, can't make mistakes because of health/damage.

Kinda reminds me of sheik from smash. Has the tools, just too stressful to always be top notch on every match. The moment she loses momentum is the moment she just loses. Mix ups are good and all but a game that has limited mix ups to each and every character rather then creating new mix ups to make your character unique compared to other people using that same character. I just dunno, it's only a matter of time before people learn how to beat these new mix ups she has and to really destroy her. It will be a new case of blocking everything. I'm slowly starting to think and I wouldn't be surprised if OROCHI is better then PK.

Orochi has identical attack speed now, ALL PK has is that Option Select zone. Without it, she would be worse then the new Reworked Orochi.

Charmzzz
05-09-2018, 09:48 AM
Conq and Zerker... I really don't understand why they didn't nerf Zerks HA on feint and Conqs insane SB mixups. They will be topping the Win % Charts for sure.

The damage nerf on PK are a bit too much, I agree. Nerfing Light damage AND Heavy to almost Light damage AND additionally nerfing the bleed followup AND nerfing the dodge-attack damage all in one Patch, I dunno...

DrinkinMehStella
05-09-2018, 03:40 PM
I think we should just see once we get our hands on the new PK, on paper yes its looks worse than before but maybe she might surprise us.

Akumu4Ever
05-09-2018, 04:11 PM
Nope, but i think they should of done valk or warden before PK

CandleInTheDark
05-09-2018, 04:28 PM
Nope, but i think they should of done valk or warden before PK

So here is the question I always ask on this, say the peacekeeper came out with high win rate percentage again this season, would you have been one of the people asking why the devs haven't nerfed her and how much more data do they need? Because many of the people who say peacekeeper didn't need a rework are the same people who would have cried foul over that.

The thing is the devs couldn't just nerf her because there were no other options to go to. While a rework to the stronger characters should be an exception rather than the rule, reworks are not just about making characters stronger, they are about giving the devs room to make the nerfs they need without overnerfing them as they did valkyrie between beta and game release.

HazelrahFirefly
05-09-2018, 04:38 PM
It's more so surprising that only two more heroes were ready with reworks. It's been... months since they announced reworks were incoming and a year since the Valk was underpowered.

I get that it could take a lot of time. That's not the part that concerns me. It's the part that this feels like only a little content for a supposedly fully supported game. Only strengthens my worry that this game is near-dead unless it impossibly ramps up its playerbase.

Akumu4Ever
05-09-2018, 05:00 PM
Didnt actually say she dont need a rework but out of the remaining characters that are getting worked on she wouldnt be top priority in my opinion.

CandleInTheDark
05-09-2018, 05:13 PM
Didnt actually say she dont need a rework but out of the remaining characters that are getting worked on she wouldnt be top priority in my opinion.

The thing is I kind of suspect after the next state of balance blog a lot of the people giving them flack over the rework would be going incandescent if she had not received any nerfs, it feels like it was pretty much a no win situation so they just committed themselves to it in the last state of balance blog.